New Years Eve Standoff

[strugglingBF]

Let's set the stage:  I have two kids (12F and 14M), am divorced, and got my kids for parenting time at 6:00 pm on New Years Eve.  My GF has two kids (20F and 18M), and has her kids 100% of time because her ex moved out of state.  GF's daughter does her own thing on New Year's Eve.  GF's son was going to his GF's grandparent's house to celebrate with her family, who invited my GF as a courtesy.  My plan was to have a New Year's Eve in with my kids.  

My GF wanted me to bring my kids to her son's girlfriend's family's party.  Turns out there were no other kids there, and it was just adults sitting around playing adult games all night.  I offered to make an appearance with my kids, maybe for the ball drop or something, but she told me either come for the entire party or don't come at all.  It isn't even her party, but she made it clear that I wasn't welcome.  Even though her son said the family would love to have us make an appearance for the ball drop.  I ended up staying at my house and having a nice little New Year's Eve with my kids, played some board games, bonded with them a little bit.  

Fast forward to this morning...I call my GF with a positive mindset and she immediately says I chose my kids over her.  Damn right I did (I didn't say that to her).  I agreed with her calmly since she put it in a way that I couldn't, and refused to, try to explain.  I did point out that she also chose to be with her son over me.  So she essentially did the same thing that she is verbally berating me for doing.  How does she not see this?  Maybe this is part of BPD I still am learning and do not understand.  I don't know.  She was literally lighting me up for doing something she did as well.  I tried to meet halfway (going over for the ball drop), even though I still would have felt I was giving in to another ultimatum.  

How do you even begin to try to work with someone like this?  She is so gone from reality sometimes that even when I try to use some of the tools on this website they still don't help me.  It is as if she is taking every measure possible to be miserable.  She isn't looking for ways to be happy at all, or compromise, or kindness.  

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[Ozzie101]

Unfortunately, when someone is really dysregulating, the tools don't work. They're more for the good times -- building the foundation or heading off a dysregulation before it happens. They're also for just not making it worse in the moment.

Good for you for sticking to your guns and having a quiet NYE with your children. I'm sure that's what you and your kids needed.

Your GF is probably upset because she feels she's losing control over you. And, no, she probably doesn't see that she chose her son, just as you chose your children. But pointing it out to her probably didn't help. I've found that even when I notice a hypocrisy, if my H is in a "mood," it's better to keep that thought to myself for the time being. We can usually talk about it when he's back at baseline, but that may not be true for every relationship.

If you don't mind my asking, how did you tell her about your NYE plans? Can you remember the basic wording and play-by-play?

[strugglingBF]

You are correct.  I fail to bit my tongue sometimes in the moment, which I know never goes over well.  I did mention that she chose her son as well, in the moment, and it didn't go over well.  I have these moments where I need to be more self-aware and not do something that makes her worse.  I fail at that frequently still, and constantly find myself wanting to grab some of my own words out of the air before they make it to her ears.

With regards to NYE plans, I just told her that I planned to stay at my house with my kids and that I didn't want to throw them into an awkward situation by taking them to some family's house that they don't know.   Even if there was other kids there, all of those kids would be cousins and we both know my kids would be off to the side.  I wanted my kids to enjoy their NYE as well.  I also said that I hope she would at least stop by my house, even if she just came for the ball drop to ring in the new year with me.  As soon as I wouldn't give in to her "come to where I am at or else" mentality she wrote me off for the entire night.  She is not a big enough person to go back on her ultimatums or to become humble and recognize should could have gone to her son's GF's family and seen me as well.  To come to my place would be giving in to me in her eyes.  Only I did not use an ultimatum to get her to my place.  I simply invited her and told her I wanted to see her.  I even offered to take my kids over there for the ball drop, but I was told to "stay away" and that I would embarrass her by showing up at 11:30.  So I stayed away.  

[Ozzie101]

Other than the bit about choosing her son, it sounds like you handled it all very well. You told her what you planned to do and why. You offered compromise. You invited her to come but didn't pressure her. Then you stuck to your plan in the face of her disapproval. Good job!

[strugglingBF]

It was very tough and uncomfortable for me to do.  And in the recent past I would have maybe caved and either forced my kids to go with me or left them at home to appease her.  I have no desire to do that anymore.  I will combat it, and be polite and reasonable in the process.  This was probably the first time I stuck to my guns.  It did feel good in a way, although I am surprised she didn't take it further.  One of my fears is that she will take a route of...going to another party after this with all kinds of drinking and single men.  That is the kind of thing she would do in the past out of anger and to get under my skin.  I was thankful it didn't go there. 

On the plus side, I had a good night with my kids.  We played board games and celebrated together.  My daughter is very intuitive and would not leave my side all night because she picked up I was a little sad that my GF wrote me off for the entire night.  About 12:30 a.m. after the ball drop, she asked me if I would be ok if she went upstairs and got ready for bed, and if I would be ok.  That kind of thing hits me hard and I fought back some tears till after she left.  She 100% was committed to keeping me company as long as I needed her.  I hope she never losses that kind heart.

[Ozzie101]

The more you stick to your guns and do the right thing as opposed to caving, the easier it will be.

Kids can be very intuitive and perceptive -- one reason to always be mindful of the messages we're sending to them.

[Ozzie101]

To expand a bit more, your GF is likely to lash out and react negatively to your standing up for yourself and your kids. This is new for both of you. Have you ever heard of an extinction burst? When a behavior that has worked for someone in the past no longer works, for a time it actually gets worse before finally going away. Think of a child who's used to throwing tantrums to get what he wants. If the parents stop giving in, the tantrums will get worse as the child thinks "Huh, it stopped working. Maybe if I try harder, they'll do what I want. Eventually, the child finally realizes "Hey, yelling and screaming and rolling around on the floor doesn't work anymore and it won't work again." That is, if the parents are consistent and hold the "no capitulation" line. Consistency is key.

It should get easier for you the more you do it.

[strugglingBF]

I will stick to my guns then.  It is tough. Thank you!

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey SB-

I’m really glad you put your young children first and spent NYE with them.  They need to know they’re important to you.

I hope your GF doesn’t do this, however With the things I’ve read about your GF, I’m a bit afraid she *may* be nasty toward your kids the next time she sees them.  Again, I hope she has more adult control over herself than to blame the children.  But does she? 

What is your “red line” on this type of behavior?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[strugglingBF]

Funny you bring that up Gems, she already showed angst toward my kids like they are the ones that kept me from coming to where she was.  That is her to a T.  I actually didn't see her yesterday either because she refused to come to my house at all due to me not going to her location on NYE.  That's fine, I didn't go to her place yesterday either.  She went silent for most of the day yesterday and I left her alone.  She started texting late afternoon and it was pleasant from there on out.  No alarming blame on my kids or anything.  We will see.  Her ire is usually directed toward my son.  However, my toleration fuse is so short right now I will ask her to leave if she isn't nice to him.  Or I will remove myself and my kids form the situation if it calls for it...if she gets petty and immature.  but yes, that is her to a T.  You clearly keep up on my posts.  Thank you for taking time out of your day to care enough to post and get to know my situation from past posts.  Both you and Ozzie are EXTREMELY appreciated. 

[strugglingBF]

Part of the reason I have a hair trigger with my kids is that she is always talking about them.  What they need to improve on, what they aren't good at, etc.  It gets old and tiring.  Her kids are absolute nightmares in their own ways.  Especially her daughter (I will come back to this).  She will read an article about something (usually fits one of the negative traits of her kids perfectly), and she will call me to try to relate it to one of my kids (or both) in the craziest ways.  Everything negative she runs across she will use my kids as an example.  My kids aren't perfect, but they are nowhere near as greedy, disrespectful, selfish as her kids.  Her daughter is 20 and downright embarrassing to take anywhere.  We went car shopping with her on NYE and she yawns through all of the conversations with the salesman, lays down on their waiting room couch so nobody else can sit down, she is rude to her mom (my GF) the entire time even though we are both taking time out of our day to help her.  She has no concept that she as totaled 3 cars at 20 years old, all of which her mom paid for, and her mom is still offering to help pay for another.  We went to Target after car shopping and she complained out loud the entire time.  When she wasn't complaining she was yelling "mom, buy me this" to something in every aisle.  I am floored and embarrassed every time she is with us.  She is 20 for crying out loud.  Then we try to go to lunch together after and she shoots every place down and says it gives her a stomach ache.  I ended up leaving them and going home to eat by myself.  It was becoming too much.  Her daughter is off the charts immature and incapable of handling day-to-day life.  Then she will get on my about my kids if my son or daughter so much as contests anything I say (like any kid growing up does).  But she puts it on the same scale as her daughter.  If my kids acted 10% of what her daughter acts like, my GF would leave and tell me she does not want to be around my kids.  I push through with her daughters off the charts behavior and it is expected...and I am expected to do it all with a smile.  She would have went off of my kids if they acted remotely like her daughter.  I bit my tongue the entire time because we were in public, and I have a rocky relationship with her daughter to say the least. If you have read my posts you probably know why.

[Ozzie101]

She could be projecting her daughter's behavior onto your kids. Hard to know for sure.

Are these negative comments and criticisms to you alone or do they come up with the kids around (or her talking to them directly)?

[strugglingBF]

I think she is absolutely projecting her daughters behavior onto my kids.  There is a direct correlation to the intensity of her feelings on my kids and the intensity of whatever is going on with her daughter.   It is all the time with my kids, but much worse during or right after a episode with her daughter.  You know she will let her guard down around me and ask for advice in how to handle her daughter, but I have to tread lightly there as well.  Even though she seems open minded, and I approach the conversation with kindness and love at the heart of my feelings for her daughter, all it takes is one trigger word and she will turn on me and my kids.  On NYE, after I left her and her daughter they had a major blow up on their way home.  Long story short, daughter told my GF she hopes she dies, posted a bunch of negative comments about her mom on Facebook, tore her mom's life apart (including her mom's relationship with me), etc.  GF called me and asked me to meet her at a restaurant because she didn't want to be home with daughter.  I met her.  We talked about her daughters behavior that day very openly.  She even mentioned that she is coming round to my theory that her daughter has a personality disorder and she needs to address that with her (this is a HUGE step for her BTW).  I mentioned the fact I was embarrassed at the car dealer and Target, and the word embarrassed totally threw her over to my kids and everything wrong with them.  We lost track of helping her daughter and my kids became the target for her frustration with her daughter.  We can't get anywhere.  And that is with me holding back my true thoughts on her daughter's behavior in order to keep the peace. 

No, she does not make the comments about my kids in their presence.  She only says them around me. 

[strugglingBF]

Ozzie.  Literally every conversation with her results in conflict lately.  I just got off the phone with her trying to make plans for the day.  She wants to go look at a few cars for her daughter (who just totaled her 3rd vehicle drunk driving).  We don't even know if she is going to have a driver's license yet.  But she got her insurance check for the last car and wants a car.  I am being supportive (regardless of my feelings inside) and offered to help because my GF and her daughter have no idea what to look for on a $5000 used car.  I said one thing that set her off.  I said I have to take my daughter to a overnight party at 4:00, so I need to be home by 3:45.  She immediately gets angry and says, "I don't do time constraints".  Uhh...Hello...I am doing you and your daughter a favor by helping you make a good car decision.  And she wants to tell me that I have to have an open ended time frame.  I have my own obligations as well.  But she wants me to take my daughter to her party late in order to help her and her ungrateful disrespectful daughter that I already struggle with helping in the first place.  She has no respect for my time or my obligations, especially when she needs me. 

[Ozzie101]

How did you respond to that?

And, just to give you something to think over: You don't approve of the daughter getting a car. So, why did you offer to go with them and help?

I can't remember if I've given you this link before. Take a careful look at Rescuer and tell me what you think.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[strugglingBF]

I didn't give in.  I politely told her that she will have my help until 3:45.  She got off the phone huffing and puffing. 

You are correct.  I don't agree with her daughter getting another car, but she does have a job she has to get to and from and it is affecting my GF's work life and productivity taking her and picking her up.  I told her to make her daughter take public transit, but I was seen as just being mean and not liking her.  Anyway, I agreed to help because it is going to happen with or without me and neither of them has any clue when buying a car. 

[Ozzie101]

Good for not giving in!

What would happen if you stepped out of the equation here? Let her figure things out and possibly make a mistake in choosing a car? Let her decide how to make things mesh with her work?

Removing yourself from the rescuer role in the triangle?

[strugglingBF]

I can totally identify with the Rescuer role.  I can see my GF as a Persecutor, and her daughter as a Victim.  This all fits very clearly to me.  I definitely need to move to the middle of the triangle, which will most likely draw some ire from my GF, who is the ultimate beneficiary of my "rescuing".

Not sure if this was a good idea or bad, but she is on me and accusing me of being selfish by saying that I would help her with the car, but it has to be after 1:00 so I can get my work in order first as well as eat and shower.  First and foremost, she got mad at me for not eating lunch with her or even thinking of it.  She never mentioned it, and it wasn't on my mind either.  I figured we would eat lunch at our respective houses and meet at 1:00 to look at a few cars.  Well she treated it as how dare you eat lunch without thinking of the fact that I need lunch too.  So add that on to the already present tension due to the fact I threw out a time I would be available.  She told me I was selfish because I didn't think about the fact that she needs to eat lunch as well and has nothing at her house to eat.  To me?...How am I supposed to know that?  Moving on...I decided to ask her a question after she returned to baseline.  I asked her...if you ask to borrow a friends truck and you would ideally like to pick it up at noon, but they tell you they need it till 3:00 but would be happy to let you borrow it...do you get angry at that person because they cannot make the truck available at noon?...or do you accept that fact that they are doing you a favor and roll with the 3:00 pickup time.  She told me that she would tell that person, "forget it.  I don't need the truck."  BS, should would roll with it and appreciate the gesture.  She just didn't want to admit it because it doesn't support the stance she takes with me.

I didn't say this to her:  If it were me, she would say, "why the hell can I not have it at noon?  What do you possibly need it for where my need doesn't trump?"  If it were anyone else on the planet, she would be appreciative of the favor/gesture of letting you borrow the truck at all. 

[Ozzie101]

The lunch argument sounds like something my H would have said a year ago during a dysregulation. Assuming other people can read their thoughts, minds and needs is not uncommon. Not fun to deal with, I know.

What did you say when she threw that at you?

So, if you were to go back to the beginning of the car shopping issue, keeping in mind the need to move to the middle of the triangle, how would you approach things? What would you do? (And I'm aware you can't really do a "do over." This is more a theoretical exercise for future situations.)

[strugglingBF]

When the lunch thing came up, I just told her I had no idea she wanted to eat lunch with me and had i know that I might have been able to make it work.  I actually would have enjoyed lunch with her.  This is kind of strange, but when we eat together there is almost never an argument.  We have some of our best conversations over a meal.  Kind of strange now that I think about it.  Maybe because we are in public, or maybe there is something soothing about it. 

With regards to your triangle question, I am not sure.  The middle of the triangle is an uncomfortable place for me.  Maybe because I am used to the Rescuer corner.  There is a part of me that would like to tell them "good luck and have fun finding a car", but there is a side of me that really does care about both of them and wants to help as well.  I don't even know what it would be like, or mean, to be in the middle of the triangle.  Isn't it kind of extreme not to help simply because my view of her daughter is different than that of her mother's?  Or that I have less of a parental obligation because she is not my daughter?  If my son or daughter screws up and gets a DUI someday, would I really not help them find another vehicle?  I guess the difference is that her daughter is super ungrateful and just expects another nice vehicle to show up.  That is the part that bothers me.  But if I help on my own terms (take it or leave it) am I still a rescuer?

[strugglingBF]

By the way I am by no means helping financially with the car, I am just there to make sure they don't buy something that needs a ton of work, or doesn't shift property, or is leaking fluid, etc.  Not sure how you took "helping".  I guess i could remove myself from the situation if she wants to act immature while looking at cars instead of putting up with it.  I have to bite my tongue quite a bit around her daughter when we are in public.  But I know if I say something, even if it is in a steady calm tone, it will lead to a blow up in public.  That is how unstable her daughter is.  And she doesn't car.  To her, she will embarrass you in public because she doesn't mind and she knows you will.

[Ozzie101]

To help or not really is up to you. You understand the situation better than we could.

I think my point is this: Your GF's daughter has totaled three cars. Multiple DUIs. She has no license at the moment (I think that's what you said?). Her attitude has been one of entitlement and disrespect. You don't think it's a good idea for her to get a new car now -- and I'd agree, by the way. And we'll set aside the daughter's history of poor behavior and outright assault.

With all those factors, why do you think you need to help them get her a new car? One could look at all that and say that by your helping, you're enabling the bad behavior. She's not being forced or encouraged to face the consequences of her actions. And if there are no real consequences, what incentive does she have to change? She screws up, someone (you and GF) will step in and help fix it. No harm.

The way I would see being in the middle of the triangle:
Your GF tells you she wants to buy her daughter a new car. Instead of offering to go shopping with them, you say, "Oh. OK." Then move on to a new topic. Let them handle the car. Let them handle the insurance. If they make a poor decision, then they learn for next time.

Or, if you really feel you must go, going along, with some ground rules laid (for instance, no disrespectful attitude or requests for financial help, etc.) and, at the first violation, an "OK. I've done my part" and a wave good-bye -- followed by actually leaving.

With your own children, yes, you would have more of an obligation. But I would hope you'd also take steps to try to get them help and to get them to see the severity of their actions so it wouldn't happen again. With your GF's daughter, you're not really in that kind of position. From everything you've said, I doubt she'd listen to you.

But if I help on my own terms (take it or leave it) am I still a rescuer?

That depends on what you're helping with and why. If you genuinely do want to help, then, yes, that's fine -- particularly if you hold firm to your terms and boundaries (boundaries are at the core of a lot of this). But I'd take a really hard, honest look at why you want to help. And what form it takes.

Glad to hear you're not financing it in any way. That would be a huge step towards enabling/rescuing.

I know I'm throwing tough stuff at you. It sounds trite, but it really is because I care and want you to think things through. As I said, the answers are totally up to you. Only you can decide what's right for you!

[Rev]

Part of the reason I have a hair trigger with my kids is that she is always talking about them.  What they need to improve on, what they aren't good at, etc.  It gets old and tiring.  Her kids are absolute nightmares in their own ways.  Especially her daughter (I will come back to this).  She will read an article about something (usually fits one of the negative traits of her kids perfectly), and she will call me to try to relate it to one of my kids (or both) in the craziest ways.  Everything negative she runs across she will use my kids as an example. 

I lived this - and my heart tells me to tell you to NEVER - EVER - let her cross this line. It is the most insidious form of projection.   Good for you for standing your ground - whether the tools work or not.

You are a good father - and no one can ever take that away from you.

Rev

[strugglingBF]

To Ozzie: I want to clarify that her daughter has one DUI relating to the most recent car she totaled.  The other two cars she totaled were tied to careless/recklessness, and I won't rule out weed influence.  She has also been involved in numerous other accidents where she ended up off the road (perfect weather conditions) in remote areas.  She doesn't appreciate or respect the privilege of driving and the only reason the state hasn't taken her license is because a number of her accidents were never reported and she and her car escaped with minimal damage somehow.  Her mom has paid for approximately 90% of the value of all three cars.   I tried to tell my GF to let her get a $2500 car with her insurance check and do not drop a dime more into it until she proves she can be responsible, stable, and respectful.  I am telling you (Ozzie) right now that this girl is going to severely hurt someone else or herself behind the wheel.  Getting a new car isn't going to make her stop drinking or smoking weed, and she WILL drive again under the influence.

What keeps me from being more vocal about her daughters behavior in public, and possibly taking harsh action like leaving the situation entirely, is the fact that my GF will retaliate.  This is not new for me, and I have taken harsh action with both of her kids in the past.  She will find a way to project her daughters bad behavior onto one on my kids.  For example, my son is more quiet and reserved.  Well, she will interpret his quietness at dinner or while we are shopping as "rude" and tell me he makes her uncomfortable by not talking more.  Sounds crazy I know, but she will put that on the same scale as her daughters actions and if I contest it she will just say, "well, to me it is the same thing and that is how I feel...are you telling me my feelings are invalid?".  We went halloween costume shopping this past October.  My son wasn't sure if he even wanted to go (he is 13 and it just isn't what it used to be for him, and he didn't have any friends going), so he wasn't really committed to finding a costume and he wasn't in all honesty very pleasant to be around.  He by no means was throwing a tantrum, he just kept saying no to all of the costumes we presented him and he was acting like a disinterested teenager.  I honestly think he was just having a moment of growing up and wrestling with the thought of not going trick or treating for the first time.  My GF puts this behavior right up there with her daughter's.  They are nowhere near the same, but she needs an equalizer in order to get me back for vocalizing my displeasure with her daughter's behavior.  She literally told me earlier in December that she will not go out to dinner with my kids if my son doesn't talk more.  How do you even begin to work with such a distorted mindset?  So now I have to worry about my GF's behavior if my son is the quiet more reserved kid at dinner that we all know he is?  Does she not realize the pressure that puts on me waiting for her reaction to the inevitable?  BTW...we did all go out to eat on Christmas Eve.  My son luckily talked enough for my GF's liking, although I was not stressed about it at all because I would have handled my GF appropriately if she actually tried to make a scene.  Plus, her son was with us that night and she wouldn't show that much of her instability in front of him.  But still, that is what I am working with over here.

Rev, thanks for your support.  I have to admit my tolerance gets shorter and shorter with my GF's unreasonable and chaotic behavior that is not even based in reality.  I have been very good at controlling my temper, but I do not know how long that will last when ridiculous treatment of my kids is at hand.  By temper, I mean my tone and the conviction of my words.  When it comes to my kids, who are both kind hearted and have done nothing wrong other than typical 12 and 14 year old testing of the waters, I am not as forgiving of her words.  And when my kids witness her behavior that is absolutely unacceptable in any type of environment, I feel like I need to show them that I will not allow anyone (regardless of who they are in my life or how much I love them) treat them that way.

[strugglingBF]

Update: So my GF wanted to take her daughter to a larger dealer about an hour outside of town and asked me to go with them.  I agreed, but I have my kids this weekend so I need it to happen during a certain time for me to be comfortable leaving town for 3-4 hours.  I told her I would go in the morning so I could be back early afternoon.  I also have some things I want to do this afternoon.  Well, her daughter stays up all night doing lord knows what and doesn't get up until 1:00 pm most weekends.  I gave my GF and heads up that she will need to make sure her daughter knows it will be an earlier morning if you want my help.  My GF walks on eggshells with her daughter and didn't want to address the getting up early.  Here we are, almost noon and she still hasn't seen her daughter because she stayed at some guys house last night.  I told GF that I cannot go out of town today as we missed the window.  She tells me I can leave my kids and it is no big deal.  Maybe true, my kids would be fine, but I don't want to leave in the middle of the day.  Again, you need my help and your daughter's irresponsible schedule is going to dictate my Saturday?  No.  They need my help, and they want it all on their terms.  I have priorities as well and I am not going to reprioritize or neglect my parental responsibilities for her disrespectful unappreciative daughter. 

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi SB-

I totally agree with you on this.  100%.  Whenever we’re doing a favor like this for someone, the beneficiary of that favor ought to take OUR schedule into account, first and foremost.  Your first priority on a weekend with your children IS your children, first and foremost.

It’s nice you want to help your GF’s daughter in her car search.  All the thoughts you’re having around the timing, the daughter’s thoughtlessness, etc are good to get out - those thoughts need to remain here.  On paper.  With us.  Can you see the JADE in this if you try to “justify” being a good dad to your GF?

So... When you offer to help with this task or any other task, this is when you’re available.  No further explanation necessary.  You have your kids.  If your GF makes a fuss or starts an argument later, do you honestly NEED to justify, Argue, Defend OR Explain?  To anyone?  That your children are YOUR priority?

Thoughts?

Gemsforeyes

[strugglingBF]

I agree with you 100% Gems!  I continue to fail in the JADE department.  I sometimes catch myself mid-JADE, other times I am like, "oh crap, I just JADE-ed".  It is something I need to be more self-aware of no doubt.  I am so used to doing it because I am always getting attacked with something on the daily, many times multiple times per day.  I love you idea of saying I am available at X time if you need me.  That is what I tried to do this morning.  They missed the window, so they can proceed without me or schedule a different time that works for all of us.

[Ozzie101]

It's so hard to get out of the JADE trap, isn't it?

How did your weekend go?

[Rev]

It's so hard to get out of the JADE trap, isn't it?

Gosh - isn't it though?  I was constantly being put on the spot. Of all the things in my failed relationship (or by now I would call it a success because I am fully out) JADE just kept me off balance and drove me further into depression. 

Hang in there bud,

We're in your corner.

Rev

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342194.msg13095352#msg13095352

Thank you.