NC to LC strategies, realities, and a healthy dose of no idea

[Imatter33]

Another poster was seeking feedback after a time of NC, and it got me thinking about taking that step. I am trying to be proactive in the communication skills I will need to have.
Or some sort of scenarios thought through. The reality is that NC now feels "easy" but it does not feel that I am done.

Personally, my barriers to NC are my husband's feelings and trying to keep my nuclear family safe and healthy. That being said I am not going to magically arrive at a number of months that is "long enough" and then contact mom like im calling an old friend.

I am thinking that the laundry list of reasons why I went NC are going to mean very little to mom, and there is not a need to rehash the past. (New thought)

  I mean that having a sit down or writing a letter outlining all of the past issues and setting conditions of what will or will not be tolerated generally does not work well. 

Trying to get someone with a personality disorder, one that is shame based, to admit to and accept a list of their prior behaviors as being 'abusive' or unhealthy or hurtful is highly unlikely.  It would be hard for a person without a personality disorder like BPD to do so.

This is so true.

Where do you go from there?  I am asking you.  I have no idea and was never really able to work that one out for my own situation.   How do you give someone a list of all their past sins against you and tell them they can no longer act that way and still have them be open and willing to hear you?  How do you set out a list of conditions for another person to follow and have them accept them and agree to them?  If someone were to approach me with a list like that?  I wouldn't react that well and I do not have a PD.  I have been in conversations where people place demands and attempt to set conditions and I walk away.   I won't participate and in turn I see that person as controlling, self-involved and manipulative... the very way I felt about my pwBPD.  It does not matter how kindly worded it may be.  I have also had people demand explanations, that I be explicit and agree to certain conditions and who attempt to establish what is fact in a situation and I walk away.  I see that person as having a temper tantrum and also being controlling.  I give them time to self sooth and then I keep them at a distance. 
You know your mom best.  What would she be likely to say?  Let's work with that and then tell me how you would respond.

I've been ruminating here a couple days. How do I even start?
( I do think subconsciously I know I don't have my Husband's blessing on resuming contact and that may be blocking my brain from creating a "rough draft" ) If I did have his blessing...Hmm


IN SWOE it reiterates that you cannot reshape and modify relationships if you do not have a good handle on your values.
I wonder if I value the mother daughter relationship at all anymore. And its not the "mother daughter relationship" I am trying to fix with my mom, as I know that is an impossibility.
Do I value a relationship with X as a person at all?

Is guilt still my predominate emotion that I HAVE to go LC?
yuck...

[pursuingJoy]

Imatter, I want to make sure I understand - you're currently NC (driven in part by your H's feelings), considering LC, and wondering what role guilt plays in all of this. Did I get that right?

I'll share my experiences in case it shakes something loose.  

For me, NC with my NPD dad was simply the natural next step. I didn't know to call it "NC" at the time, I just knew I'd tried for years to have a functional relationship with my dad. His responses made me realize that I couldn't. On the flip side, I was learning that I didn't need him to 'get it' to move in with my life, heal and forgive him. And my dad never tried to contact me so that made NC easier.

Because your H seems to feel that you should maintain NC: my H has never met my dad. Most of the time he is very supportive of NC, it is only during conflict with his own mom he tells me that he finds my NC 'weird' because he wants to believe that family should always stick together no matter what. In other words, he's concerned about what my conflict with cost HIM. Do you think your H is concerned about the impact of LC on your marriage/family, and what contact with your mom will cost him?

LC with my BPD MIL came after years of fruitless patience, as requested by H, for her "quirky behavior" (what I understand now to be dysfunctional relating and lack of boundaries). I fully agree with both you and Harri - rehashing or asking her to acknowledge the harm done and apologize would be pointless and do far more harm than good. At the moment, I've amped up LC because I know that additional contact with her would mean me setting additional boundaries, which would cause her pain and anger. H feels what she feels, so his/her pain and anger would lead to additional conflict with my H. To be very blunt, I go into contact with a safety plan, enough to challenge myself but not cause harm to anyone, not be accused of cold-heartedness, show that I am making an effort, show commitment to H and our marriage, and to placate H. Harm reduction for all involved.

I'm sure there are holes in my approach but as I learn, I can shift. Each of us has to come up with a plan that works for us. I love the idea of solidifying your own values and how you plan to protect them before you do anything. There seems to be a great deal of wisdom in that. So can you identify your values? What are your priorities?  

[SepiaScarf]

This has been on my mind so much,
     I at first felt like there had to be something, a talk, a letter. Some peeps on this board helped me realize there doesn't have to be something. At least not for me but everyone is different. My entire NC has been literally just removing my mom from Facebook, at which point she could not contact me, she doesn't have a phone. I was terrified she would try knocking down my door, but nothing. So my plan, when I am ready, is to just add her back to my Facebook. Kind of like dropping the ball in her court.
     I think the most important thing is understanding what you want out of this relationship and what you expect it to look like. I am very firm in this. I see it like the distant cousin you see at the family reunion, you are happy to see them, hope they are doing well catch up a little.. and go on your merry way. I dont think its that simple for everyone though...

Wish I could chat more got to go

SS

[zachira]

You are wondering about NC to LC strategies with your mom. In my experience having many disordered relatives, the type of contact is something that evolves over time. What really helped me was when I got to the point where I really didn't want to be around them anymore, and from then on setting the boundaries has come naturally. There is a lot of pain, sorrow, frustration, and FOG when we decide to see less of our disordered family members, and with time we feel more comfortable in putting ourselves and the people we want in our lives first. What do you think are some of the boundaries you would like to set with your mom right now?

[Imatter33]

Imatter, I want to make sure I understand - you're currently NC (driven in part by your H's feelings), considering LC, and wondering what role guilt plays in all of this. Did I get that right?

Yes. Right on.

I'll share my experiences in case it shakes something loose.  

For me, NC with my NPD dad was simply the natural next step. I didn't know to call it "NC" at the time, I just knew I'd tried for years to have a functional relationship with my dad. His responses made me realize that I couldn't.

Ok, so what this does shake lose for me is that I still am living in a kind of uBPD behavior haze. It's hard to grasp that my mothers behaviors made me go NC, but my siblings are continuing some type of relationship. So it falls back on me doubting my ability to view her correctly. As you said PJ you simply could tell from your father's responses that you could not have a functional relationship. I'd say its 80-20 for my mother, and there is a small part of me that thinks the 20 percent (of a functional relationship) is worth going LC for.

Again, I have this feeling of emotional amnesia, The time away has almost allowed me to forget about the BPD behaviors (or maybe I am pushing them down)

On the flip side, I was learning that I didn't need him to 'get it' to move in with my life, heal and forgive him.

Good to know that can be found.

Do you think your H is concerned about the impact of LC on your marriage/family, and what contact with your mom will cost him?

ABSOLUTELY. And while i initially saw this as selfish, I think he has every right to feel this way. There is heaps of truth to the cost it will have on him.

To be very blunt, I go into contact with a safety plan, enough to challenge myself but not cause harm to anyone, not be accused of cold-heartedness, show that I am making an effort, show commitment to H and our marriage, and to placate H. Harm reduction for all involved.

I love the idea of solidifying your own values and how you plan to protect them before you do anything. There seems to be a great deal of wisdom in that. So can you identify your values? What are your priorities?  

My values so far...

A relationship with my dad and inlaws. * My daughter having this relationship as well.

My own personal faith. **


No bail outs in terms of finances.***

Self-care as it pertains to my house is my sanctuary. ****

My husband has autonomy, and I support him first.*****




*no matter how insecure this makes her feel.
**free of her stamp of approval, and her need to discuss hers with me
*** I will not support her impulsivity or her bad money management out of fear.
****She cannot come over, that's not how our relationship is going to be.
***** I will not tolerate her putting H down in speech or theory.

I hope the way I organized this response was clear.
Seeing my values written out does help me.
The guilt issue loses some of its grip when posed against values.

[Panda39]

Imatter33,

My stepdaughters have approached their mother both ways.  D23 is no contact and struggles like so many here with guilt (but also anger) and D19 is low contact with her mom and that involves setting boundaries.

This may be an over simplification but I see those two things (guilt & boundaries) as the differences between LC & NC. 

I think if you are going to go LC looking at your values (as you are  ) and setting boundaries around those values is the way to go. 

I also want to say don't compare your relationship with your mom with that of your siblings you all have your own relationships with your mom and your own tolerances for things.  Focus on your relationship and what you want.  I'm sure both my step daughters have looked at each other and think the grass is greener, but it really never is, it's just different.

Panda39

[Imatter33]

You are wondering about NC to LC strategies with your mom. In my experience having many disordered relatives, the type of contact is something that evolves over time. What really helped me was when I got to the point where I really didn't want to be around them anymore, and from then on setting the boundaries has come naturally. There is a lot of pain, sorrow, frustration, and FOG when we decide to see less of our disordered family members, and with time we feel more comfortable in putting ourselves and the people we want in our lives first.

This no longer feels like a daily struggle, but now weekly. FOG is so thick. But I can only imagine it gets less heavy with time.

What do you think are some of the boundaries you would like to set with your mom right now?

Zacharia,
Do you think my reply to PJ highlights boundaries or values? Maybe I wrote both of them in the response?

SS,
I too was afraid she would come knocking, and she hasn't. It's made me feel empowered as if perhaps she is scared of me. Meaning if she pushes maybe she knows I'll likely go NC forever. Dono...

This may be an over simplification but I see those two things (guilt & boundaries) as the differences between LC & NC. 

I think if you are going to go LC looking at your values (as you are  ) and setting boundaries around those values is the way to go. 

I also want to say don't compare your relationship with your mom with that of your siblings you all have your own relationships with your mom and your own tolerances for things.  Focus on your relationship and what you want.  I'm sure both my step daughters have looked at each other and think the grass is greener, but it really never is, it's just different.

Sound advice Panda. Thank you.
Lots to think on further.

[zachira]

I would say I was a little confused by your response to PJ. It could help to describe typical scenarios with your mom and how you plan to respond. For example, your mom is insulting you and blaming you for her unhappiness in a telephone call. You response is to hang up.

[Harri]

Hi Imatter.  

Agree that learning tools will make a big difference.  i think they will help you regardless of the degree of contact you have with your mom.  The tools help us function better in all of our relationships and are not just to be used for those with BPD.  

I agree with Panda when she says to not compare your relationship with your mom.  One of the things my now SIL said when she was dating my brother and I was in the midst of asserting myself and differentiating from my mom is that my relationship with my mother was very different than my brothers.  She said this in front of me but it was directed towards my brother as he was upset with me for upsetting my mother and The Family (roll eyes).  Different relationships, different personalities, different ways of coping, etc.  will all influence someones contact and responses.

So anyway, I have been thinking about this and I went back and read some of your earlier posts.   A big part of the problem is that you lose sight of you and become very distressed when your mom acts out correct and that in turn affected the way you interacted with your husband, correct?  A big part of your recovery, healing from the abuse you have experienced is to learn how to manage your own emotional reactions, again, regardless of what sort of contact you have with your mom.  Those responses are a part of you and how you cope when under a great deal of stress.  I have been there and still have to work on staying in a healthier place with other people in my life so I am not judging or pointing fingers.   I just wanted to mention it as we tend to focus a lot on learning things in relation to our pwBD and forget that we need to unlearn and re-learn better coping skills because some of what we do is not healthy.

Have you seen Distress Tolerance Skills?  This is a great article with links and graphics (click on them) that has some very good information for us to lean to use to manage our own behaviors and reactions.

Thoughts?

[pursuingJoy]

I think you did a good job identifying your values, Imatter.  You are so right that starting with values is a great antidote to that guilt we feel. Z's suggestion of offering scenarios and talking through how to react may be helpful. I offered a few examples using what you wrote:

A relationship with my dad and inlaws. * My daughter having this relationship as well. *no matter how insecure this makes her feel.

If it's important for you and your daughter to maintain a relationship with your inlaws, no matter how insecure this makes your mom feel, how will you respond the next time she perhaps complains about you seeing them more, or criticizes them in some way?  

My own personal faith. **
**free of her stamp of approval, and her need to discuss hers with me

My gosh my FOO does this all the time. How does this play out for you? If she starts going into what she's learned about God lately and perhaps uses that to coerce you, how do you plan to respond?

No bail outs in terms of finances.***
*** I will not support her impulsivity or her bad money management out of fear.

Do you plan to simply say no or do you have exceptions, like you will only help if her lights will be cut off? Either way, what do you plan to tell her/what action will you take if she asks?

Hope this helps.

I also love what Harri's saying about managing emotional distress. This has absolutely been the most difficult part for me. In the first part of the Distress Tolerance Skills thread, Cat Familiar says something about realizing that she had an epiphany when she noticed her own discomfort watching her husband start to get upset. Our marriage counselor pointed out the same for my husband in his responses to his mom. I do it all the time too.

[Imatter33]

I feel incredibly heard and taken care of  by the tools and stories shared here. Thank you all.
PJ, I appreciate the questions to my values and I will work on them.
Harri, I am so glad you pointed out distress tolerance skills as it pertains to myself.
It is far too easy to only think of my loved one with BPD having the issues or difficult behaviors.
I am going to take ANOTHER  look at myself and learn these skills, as you are right I need them in everyday interactions.
I've also been looking up Randi Kreger on youtube and listened to her webinar on limit setting. All in all this just made me buy her next book.
She reiterated limit setting is a process not a step. And I draw comfort from knowing that this stuff takes a lot of time. Again, just beyond grateful for BPDfamily.

I do want to share a nightmare I had last night.
In a nutshell I was with mom doing an activity in a park setting.
My family (daughter) and FOO were there. I don't recall if H made an appearance.
As we are leaving the park my mom sees an animal that resembles her dog. She wants to go pet it. We all go up to it. We then see it is not a dog but has the same coloring. It is a HUGE Badger like thing only longer.

Someone was holding it and offered it to me. It crawled in my lap and sweetly rubbed itself on my neck. Then all hell breaks loose. I feel the bites, i feel the scratches, and the mayhem as I am screaming that it is hurting me badly.

I don't think I awoke from the dream, but my H said I yelled in my sleep.
I told him I had the  nightmare this morning about an animal that was nice and then turned mean that bit me.
" Well that was about your mother."
"I know babe she was in the dream too."It was very upsetting."
H says, " I am sorry."

I don't need analysis to know my mom actually was the badger like animal.
NC continues for me.

[Harri]

It is far too easy to only think of my loved one with BPD having the issues or difficult behaviors.

Yes, it is easy isn't it?   Thanks for hearing me and always being so open to looking within too.

That was an interesting dream.  I used to have a lot (and still have a few) dreams with my mom or parents in them and it was interesting to note how their positions and mine changed as I healed more.  At first, I would dream that we had all made a mistake and my mother wasn't really dead and I felt awful and guilty for clearing her stuff out of the house on top of feeling guilty for not realizing she was not dead.  That dream changed over time and I no longer felt guilt and that I was a horrible daughter.  Then it changed to me being able to wake myself up and be fully aware that she really was dead.  Same dream that changed over time.

I also had dreams where I was in a car and my mother was driving.  I was trapped as she berated me and touched me and I could not get away as we were going too fast and there were no door handles.  Gradually that dream changed where I was less and less helpless and was able to see my options (I tried opening her door and pushing her out )  Eventually I got to the point where I was driving and she was the passenger and I would drop her off when she got abusive.

It was strange and like I was working things out in my dreams.  I got to the point of looking forward to them in a lot of ways.  haha

Keep up the great work you are doing Imatter. 

[Imatter33]

How wonderful to think that my dreams would indicate levels of healing. I can totally see how that would make dreaming something to look forward to.

 Very happy Harri that it was so clear as I read your reflections, (when the healing was happening) and the dreams have obviously have stayed with you.

Lately I have been dreaming of resuming contact but no substantial event occurred UNTIL last night and the badger.

Im happy to know what to do next (that in and of itself is a relief.)

Book arrived today. Thanks Amazon prime. 

[Imatter33]

*I am getting practice every day with distress tolerance skills. I also related big time to my bad responses coming from ME wanting to feel better, and not really caring about the other person feeling better.
So this thought rearranges what I have always thought in a good way.
For instance, my H hurt himself and this made him angry and testy (I felt he lashed out unprovoked at me too)  I hated how the mood made me feel and typically I retaliate by yelling. I thought of the skills, and said...I am going to be QUIET and not add to HIS distress.
He apologized in record time and admitted that he was just mad he hurt himself.

Not  that he is hurt but you all get it!


Updated Values and Roleplay Take One


1. My daughter and I  will continue to have a close  relationship with my dad and inlaws. 

2. My faith is personal and not up for discussion.

3. Financial assistance is for (what my husband and I deem as emergency only.) Everything else is a no go.

4. My house is off limits for visiting.

5. My husband has autonomy, and I support him, first.

If it's important for you and your daughter to maintain a relationship with your inlaws, no matter how insecure this makes your mom feel, how will you respond the next time she perhaps complains about you seeing them more, or criticizes them in some way?  

M: Mom
R: My Response


M: You’re always going over there. Guess they are the good grandparents right?
Your father has always been there for you right?
Yea, Yea they are perfect.
I’m just the bad scary one.

R: Sounds like you are worried i am comparing you to dad and IL.
I am not.
I’ll spend time with them when I want to. And I’ll spend time with you when I want to.

If she starts going into what she's learned about God lately and perhaps uses that to coerce you, how do you plan to respond?

M: Lately I have been hearing God  say to me, “pick up your cross and follow me.”  She will then say my name, and say. “I haven’t felt that you have been on that page with me in a long time.

R: I’m hearing you say that God told you to do this, and I know that is super important to you mom. It’s not about me being on that page.
When it comes to matters of faith, I’ve decided that’s it is entirely personal for me and  I am not going to talk about it with you anymore… (GULP)

Do you plan to simply say no or do you have exceptions, like you will only help if her lights will be cut off? Either way, what do you plan to tell her/what action will you take if she asks?

M: I need to borrow 200.00 so that I can rent a car to go see a friend. I'll pay you back next time I get paid.
M: I need the money today.
R: Mom, I know how much you want to see that friend, but I will not pay for that kind of trip.
You will have to wait until you can do it on your own.

(Lights getting cut off would be something that I would explain is a true emergency.)

Ok, so I have two more to go, but honestly i am pretty beat. I've been thinking pretty hard, trying to be validating and careful. Thoughts so far to my Responses?