What about when children are involved

[Green Grapes]

I highly suspect my husband has BPD.  We are currently separated,  but escaping is his MO anyway, so he leaves a lot.  I have read Stop Walking on Egg shells and felt so incredibly validated.   I also have 4 young children who receive a good deal of their daddy's disapproval and frustration.  They are displaying trauma behaviors from his harshness, subtle manipulation,  and how he just picks up and moves out, leaving us frequently.   I am trying to save our relationship while challenging him to different approaches with the kids.  He sees my attempts as controlling, and disrespectful of him and I feel caught between protecting the kids and not angering my husband.  Has anyone navigated this with sensitive kids?  As a side note,  it is loud and chaotic, they are high energy and creative.  The chaos drives my husband crazy.  But the kids are not bad kids and they live here.  Help?  I dont know how to balance this and I am exhausted. 

[Mutt]

Hi Green Grapes, 



I'd like to welcome you to BPDFamily, I'm dorry for the circumstances that has led you to this site but I am glad that you have found us.

I also have 4 young children who receive a good deal of their daddy's disapproval and frustration.

I'm sorry that the kids have to go through that, I have three kids they are older now, the youngest is 8 but they were young when they we first separated and I could tell that they had their own stress to bare that affected them.

What is the custody arrangement like?

What is the visitation arrangement like?

Do you have full custody or shared custody? Does he see the kids every other weekend?

[Green Grapes]

He just left last week for the 10th or so time in the last two years.  I am deeply relational and also knew little of emotional illness.  I had never even heard of borderline until about a year ago.  I have also wanted him to come back home.  Now I see the scope if disfunction.  I have done a lot "wrong."  I have talked to him about BPD and was just yesterday encouraging him to get help for all our sakes.  He does love us, although he says he doesn't and is terribly mean to me especially and the kids as well.  I see on these sites I shouldn't ha e talked to him about BPD.  He is so smart and high functioning and it is just recently I am realizing things may never change.  He wants us to leave everything as it is and not draw up any agreements.   He wants nothing legal done.  I feel for his pain and hopelessness and I dont want to hurt him further, bit no agreement leaves me with no recourse or real control.   I am trying to cut down on the trauma and leave space for us all to heal.  I am so confused and don't know what to do next.   

[Panda39]

Hi Green Grapes,

It sounds like you have the relationship with your husband as one issue and this is a great board for strategies to help you there. 

In terms of the kids we have a "Coparenting" Board (this board is for both married and divorced parents) that can give you strategies that will help your kids, here is the link https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=10.0

Here is a sample of information from the Co-parenting board...Raising Resillient kids when a parent has BPD https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

I am realizing things may never change.

They can change and a lot of that change can come by how you approach things, there are tools that can help.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Green Grapes]

What tools do I look for? 

[Mutt]

 

I am deeply relational and also knew little of emotional illness.  I had never even heard of borderline until about a year ago.  I have also wanted him to come back home.  Now I see the scope if disfunction.  I have done a lot "wrong."

 I'm sorry that you are going through this, this statement really resonates with me because after I found out about BPD things started to make sense after being alone in the dark for many years and nobody got it, people that are really close to me they still don't understand it today but people here get it.
 
 If you think about it a personality disorder is very complex and BPD traits overlap with so many other mental disorders that even professionals have a difficult time differentiating it from other mental disorders - so coming from a logical place what chance do we have at home to diagnose a personality disorder. I'm not qualified to make a diagnosis and the same goes for the members on this board but having the knowledge that we all have now we can look at traits of borderline personality disorder.
 
 Don't be hard on yourself.
 

He wants us to leave everything as it is and not draw up any agreements.   He wants nothing legal done.

Has this happened in the past before where you have reached this point and it was the same thing where nothing was drawn up. Here is my advice, BPD is arrested emotional development where the person arrested emotionally at the young age of two or three. You have small kids so you understand this part when it comes to boundaries where a child will flail against your boundaries but you have to set certain rules down because that's the way things are or then you're going to get emotionally lead down a path that is like you're on an emotional rollercoaster.
 
 A pwBPD have poor boundaries on themselves and have a poor understanding of other people's boundaries they will lash out and protest and test and when they have an extinction burst and things are calm again and it has become the general rule they will test it again that is their nature but when it comes to the kids and co-parenting you need to have iron clad boundaries that are drawn up by the courts so that they can have repercussions down the road if it gets to that point. It has to be spelled out clearly in black and white because if you have ambiguity it will be challenged and it will cause drama because it's something that a pwBPD can utilize but if you take that ambiguity away you take the potential emotional distress out of the equation as well.
 
 Basically he's tell you that he doesn't like boundaries.
 
 

I am so confused and don't know what to do next.

 Take things step by step one by one.

[ForeverDad]

Of course he doesn't want any written terms or agreements, he'd much rather insist that whenever and whatever happens always turns out how he feels it should.  So any hint of rules, terms, boundaries, consequences or expectations are what he desperately will resist.

When faced with a spouse who refuses to behave better, it often means the relationship gets declared failed.  That's divorce.  Domestic courts are there to (sort of) referee the unwinding of a marriage or partnership.  Generally a temp order sets a minimum of rules to get though the divorce process, then custody and parenting schedule issues are addressed, then finally the financial division.

This is an essential handbook to read before you go down the scary divorce path:  Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger

One final thought about whether he is a 'good' person or not.  By definition, him displaying Borderline personality disorder traits and behaviors means his acting-out behaviors negatively impact those close to him - the spouse and the children.  That's not good.  No other way to say it.  People with BPD are erratic and inconsistent in their perceptions and behaviors, especially to those closest to them.  How to describe the mix of good, bad and extreme behaviors?  "Messed up"? "Self-sabotaging"?

Why have so many of us divorced?  In short, it provides the children with at least some regular portions of their childhood in a stable, consistent, loving home so they have a parent who can teach by example of what a healthy and functional home is like.

[livednlearned]

They are displaying trauma behaviors from his harshness, subtle manipulation,  and how he just picks up and moves out, leaving us frequently.

My son did too (he's now 18). It's especially tough when your kids display a similar sensitive genotype. S18 became very somatic when he was 7. Then he began to talk about not wanting to live at age 8.

What are some of the trauma behaviors your kids exhibit?

There are a lot of skills we use with our kids to help them be emotionally resilient. Validation is probably the most important -- to create a validating environment for how they feel. The other thing I did with my son is become his advocate. I went from "let's fix you" to "I got your back" and put a lot of effort into seeing things from his perspective.

What is your main concern with the kids?

[worriedStepmom]

It must be scary for your kids.

Dad just disappears sometimes, and they aren't ever sure when or if he'll come back.  And when Dad is home, he can be mean or manipulative...or he can be nice dad.  Plus there's tension between Mom and Dad and/or Mom is sad or upset.

Have you thought about getting counseling for them? (Play therapists work with kids as young as 3; my daughter really benefited from therapy when she was 5.)  A therapist can help them learn to put words to their feelings and can help them find coping mechanisms for their stress.

Have you thought about getting counseling for you?  You're dealing with an awful lot, and having a neutral person to help you work through some of these big decisions, and to help you learn about boundaries, may be really useful for you.

[Green Grapes]

This is so helpful. Thank you!  I am so emotional.  My FS7 is really struggling he is angry and has started trying toneun away like his dad.  I try to be really calm and help, but I get overwhelmed sometimes with 4 and when he goes nuts I can get angry.  I totally know he is hurting and needs help and i try so hard to equip them.  There dad has really slowly torn down their self esteem one criticism at a time.  They are fighting with each other constantly ( I homeschool - please dont judge this. We are really involved outside our home, and I really think they need to be with me since they always have.  I love my kids and love teaching them.  There are lots of pros)  The con is we are together most of the time, it kicks up the sibling fighting and I think the constant criticism from their dad taught them to treat each other that way too.  They are really big on their right to their things, toys,  and space.  They want to use each others, but no one better disrespect or touch or borrow theirs.  My husband thinks reapect is him getting exactly what he wants with no question when he wants it with no questioning. 
I am in counseling again, and looking at some therapies for them.  I found a guy who comes into the home and teaches connected parenting.  That way I can learn how to help them better.  Last night I was tired and emotional,  they were tired and emotional,  my pwBPD was texting disconnected and I felt threatened and I ended up I a war with my S7 over a haircut because he didn't want his sister to hold his car and was fighting me. 
My fear with him is that he will take them for his time and not care for them well, he doesn't know meds, routines,  has no patience, and if he screams at them he has no idea how to repair.  What if he freaks and my pwBPD runs off and leaves them somewhere?  What if the kids run away from him, my son has run out into our woods before.  He tries to run from me the other day.  They are fogging  with school and have a really hard time focusing.  It is new AGAIN this week so I know from experience they will work through it, bit it is great and raw and unfair.  I feel like I totally failed them giving them a BPD daddy.  I ache, they ache...

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  Glad you found this site.  There are many wonderful people here who freely share their help, advice, and lessons learned.  It's also a great place to search for other stories like yours...if you can find the time to search!  As a "mostly single" mother of four, it has to be a great challenge, especially when you home school.  A tip of my hat to you for taking on that challenge.  I'm a big fan of home schooling. 

One of the parenting resources I use are the books/videos written/developed by Dr. Kevin Leman. 

(https://www.amazon.com/Have-New-Kid-Friday-Character/dp/0800732189/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=dr+kevin+leman&qid=1579706662&sr=8-1),
and (https://www.amazon.com/What-Difference-Mom-Makes-Indelible/dp/0800734327/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=dr+kevin+leman&qid=1579706688&sr=8-3),
and especially (https://www.amazon.com/Making-Children-without-Losing-Yours/dp/0800728335/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=dr+kevin+leman&qid=1579706688&sr=8-6) 

I like his approach of action oriented discipline and making the children responsible for their own lives as much as possible. 

There are also great tools/articles in here on raising resilient children too. 

It can be overwhelming, but how do you eat an elephant?  One bite at a time...Don't tackle it all at once.  Small, consistent changes over time will work wonders.

Also, please take care of yourself.  Put your mask on first.  It's great you see a counselor!  Eat well, exercise, and most important, get a good amount of sleep every night.  Good luck.  jdc

[kells76]

Hi Green Grapes, and welcome!

I homeschool - please dont judge this.

No judgement. Different setups work for different families. I was 100% homeschooled through 4th grade, 1 year off doing "unschooling" in 5th grade, did 50% of my homeschooling at a friend's house in 6th grade, then part time public middle school 7th/8th grades, then full time Catholic HS for 9th/10th, then full time public HS the last two years. Whatever works!

The con is we are together most of the time, it kicks up the sibling fighting

That's gotta be tough with four. You have a S7, right? How old are the rest of your kids?

I am in counseling again, and looking at some therapies for them.  I found a guy who comes into the home and teaches connected parenting.  That way I can learn how to help them better.

Good for you  One of the things I've learned here is that even if the pwBPD never changes, that doesn't mean that the situation will never change. We have a lot of opportunities to make different choices on our end that can change the dynamic. Often it's non-intuitive to see the opportunities, and it can take an outside perspective -- perhaps like the "connected parenting" consultant -- to open our eyes to the ways we can make some changes. Kudos for being open to learning new ways.

...

Short term, what kind of support do you have for looking after the kiddos? You sound like a person who could use a break now and then. Think of it as like being on an airplane -- you have to put on your own oxygen mask first before you can help those around you.

Reflecting back on 6th grade, I suspect that my mom sent us over to my friend's house for homeschooling because she was having a difficult time emotionally. I really liked this friend's house -- her mom was calm and orderly, and it felt like a very safe place. It was still "homeschooling" but in a unique way that was better for the situation.

I wonder if, as you're in this time of wondering how to move forward regarding your marriage, you and your kids could benefit from relying on thoughtful community members to take some of the load off. Wouldn't have to be permanent.

...

My fear with him is that he will take them for his time and not care for them well, he doesn't know meds, routines,  has no patience, and if he screams at them he has no idea how to repair.

It's good that you are able to articulate your fears. There are a couple of ways you could go with this.

One is to adopt a "one step at a time" mentality. Allow yourself "permission" to worry about it when you are actually there in the process. "Give yourself a break" from worrying about it if the decision isn't right in front of you.

Two is to dig in to addressing that fear with some facts. You may know this already, but often initial consultations with lawyers can be either free, or low cost. I'm just the stepmom, but back when we were deciding on a L, the one we ended up going with actually gave me 30 minutes of answers to my questions, just over the phone, for free. You can consider tackling this fear and the "what-ifs" by consulting with a couple of L's and learning how things have gone for other moms in your situation. Sometimes getting the facts can deflate some fears down to a more manageable size.

...

Keep posting whenever works for you... we'll be here.

kells76

p.s. Ah, I see I cross posted with jdc about the "putting on your mask first"

[worriedStepmom]

I am so glad you are in counseling for yourself.  That is a huge first step - you are prioritizing your emotional and mental health needs, and that is critical both for your wellbeing and that of your children. 

I have an S10 with an anxiety disorder (but no BPD parent), and I completely understand your frustration with the acting out and running away.  It's HARD to parent kids who are that challenging.  You are doing your best to learn new parenting and relationship skills, and that is a good thing.

My fear with him is that he will take them for his time and not care for them well, he doesn't know meds, routines,  has no patience, and if he screams at them he has no idea how to repair.  What if he freaks and my pwBPD runs off and leaves them somewhere?  What if the kids run away from him, my son has run out into our woods before.  He tries to run from me the other day. 

If he's a bad parent, then you file to get custody taken away from or minimized.

My H and his uBPDex had 50/50 custody for 8 years.  Then her emotional abuse of SD12 got too severe, so H filed for primary custody.  For a year it was 70/30 with H as primary parent...and then the emotional abuse got worse.  Now his ex sees SD12 only for 8-hour blocks during the daytime about 4 days a month  No overnights at all.  We have consequences embedded in the custody agreement so that if she does certain things (including threatening to just drive away to another state and leave SD behind), then it goes to supervised visitation.

H and I spent too many years trying to protect his ex's feelings to keep her calm.  Now our sole focus is on protecting SD12, and SD12 is a lot happier and less stressed.

I feel like I totally failed them giving them a BPD daddy. 

I felt like I failed when my non-BPD ex and I divorced.  My dream of one intact happy family crumbled around me. 

I wasn't a failure.  Neither are you.  You made the best choices you could make with the information that you had at the time.  Now you have new information, and you have a chance to do better.  Be kind to yourself, and let yourself grieve the dreams that you had for yourself and for them.  Your children would not exist if you hadn't chosen your H back then, and that would be a shame.

[livednlearned]

My FS7 is really struggling he is angry and has started trying toneun away like his dad.  I try to be really calm and help, but I get overwhelmed sometimes with 4 and when he goes nuts I can get angry.

How do you respond when he runs away?

It's always ok to repair and recover after the fact. People get angry, the key is to not let it build into shame or avoidance, and even use it to give him an example of how people repair damage. "I got angry and I feel sad about it. Let's sit here and cuddle so I can hear how you felt. Maybe we can find a way for us to work through these moments together."

Or something like that.

The gift of BPD, if there is one, is becoming skillful at understanding emotions. Yours, the kids, your husband's.

Having a BPD father can be intensely invalidating so they will be starved for validation about how they feel. The biggest challenge I found trying to right the ship was taking a moment to identify how I was feeling and then make space for my kid to feel his feelings without me shutting them down inadvertently. That's why I had to know how I felt -- if I didn't, then I tended to roll through his trying to get my needs met. For example, "Daddy loves you" after a fight completely erased the feelings of distress and anguish he needed to process and was more about me needing to feel that our family dysfunction could be ignored with words instead of changed with behaviors.

Great that you're having someone come to the house. I'm curious what is meant by connected parenting and how a home visit works.

[zachira]

I am the daughter of a mother with BPD. When children have a parent that they cannot trust to be there for them and the needs of the parent come before those of the children, the children usually think that there is something wrong with them because of the way the dysfunctional parent treats them. Often the other parent does not feel comfortable criticizing the dysfunctional parent, yet it is extremely important that the children know that they are lovable worthy individuals and that how they are treated by the dysfunctional parent is about the parent and not the children. You are taking many positive steps forward by being in therapy yourself and looking into getting therapy for your children. Therapy for the children can be a safe place for them to express their feelings and also can provide you with some help with what to do about how their father is treating the children. How do you address the children's feelings now when your children are once again mistreated by their father? Keeping you and your children in my thoughts and glad you are reaching out.

[ForeverDad]

Be sure to document the issues and incidents in a journal, calendar or diary.  Why?  You may end up going to domestic court to get the order changed to address these and other issues.  Court generally ignores "he always..." or "she always..." claims as too vague and not actionable hearsay.  If you have dates and details of specific incidents and archived letters from school, etc. then the court is more likely to be swayed by the evidence.

Even if this by itself may not move you to return to court for modifications, you may have other issues come up that are sufficient for you to lump them together for resolution in court.  At first the court may view you both as bickering parents but over time the court will discern who is the responsible parent appearing with solutions to the issues.