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Caretaking - What is it all about?
Margalis Fjelstad, PhD
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Brené Brown, PhD
Family dynamics matter.
Alan Fruzzetti, PhD
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BenFranklin

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« on: January 24, 2020, 08:36:05 PM »

It's been a long journey. Back in 1985 my former wife and I adopted our daughter. Marriage broke up in the early 90's and I ended up taking custody of our 2 children. In a couple of years I remarried. Daughter had loads of trouble thru teenage years. After she left home, she had three children in a bit over  years. Much neglect finally led children's services to removing them and placing them with myself and second wife (we had taken foster parents classes). When children (3-a boy and 2 girls) where taken from her custody, we adopted them, ages 3, 4, 5. She at this time was diagnosed with BPD by 2 different DR's.  Fast forward 11 years, again marriage broke up and I'm raising kids again on my own. Oldest boy has been diagnosed a high functioning Austic. Middle girl seems pretty happy and youngest has checked off all the boxes of BPD (Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) 14). She's currently in a inpatient program as  ODD. She's been there 4 months and 'seems' to have turned the corner. I am guardedly hopeful. I don't know how much of these problems is genetics and how much comes from birth mother's drug use while carrying kids.
I want to thank everyone on this forum, I hope I've learned from you all over the years that I've been reading. You have given me much info and support.
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2020, 10:12:40 PM »

Bill,
I’m so glad you posted after reading for all these years. I was amazed by your compassion in raising your 3 grandchildren who have some serious struggles. That must be very tough. Do you have a face to face support system?

Have you seen positive changes in the 14 year old since the inpatient program? I’ve read that ODD can actually benefit from the same type therapy that is gold standard for BPD. Are they teaching her DBT skills?

Please post details if you feel like it.

Sending you a big welcome hug,
Peacemom
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BenFranklin

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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2020, 11:44:57 PM »

Thank you for the hug. I am familiar with DBT and CBT therapy thanx to this board.
I think/ hope this is helping her but the turn is only 2 weeks old. Time will tell. I like to say my grand kids became my real kids 11 years ago- when we adopted them. I was adopted, my daughter, their birth mother was adopted by my first wife and I (looking back her birth mother had symptoms as well). we're a mixed up bunch. My support system is my very excellent therapist and my family. Mom says never give up so I won't.  It's stressful but I keep trying. again thank you. 
The therapists tell me that ODD is 'is baby BPD' but refuse to diagnose BPD  due to her age? But say privately that I'm right. How I wish I were wrong.
To add- I got the best parents an infant boy could ever have asked for!
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PeaceMom
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2020, 07:27:25 AM »

Billw,
My DD is adopted and I see that BPD might be more prevalent with adoptees. We were told that Radical Attachent Disorder can morph into BPD. I felt that she did attach and I worked very hard to try to make that happen. I gave up my career to be with her 24/7. Honestly, I’m always looking for successful adoption stories because I’m jaded by our experience.

Hopefully you will feel like sharing more as your DD14 progresses. Internalizing these skills at 14 could make a world of difference in the upcoming 15-19 years, a nearly impossible period for these girls.
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BenFranklin

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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2020, 09:40:24 AM »

I've read that BPD is common in adopted kids. Further, both of my wives have had issues that likely contributed to my girls' problems. With my youngest, I've tried to form stronger bonds with her, but puberty wrecked that. I also think that Dad just can't be Mom but I'll keep tryin.
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FaithHopeLove
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2020, 10:22:35 AM »

Hi Ben. I am so glad you decided to post after years of reading. It is great to officially have you in the group. You seem like a hero caring for all those special needs children including at least one with BPD but heroes need support and I hope you will find it here. What do you most need from the group now?
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BenFranklin

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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2020, 07:45:18 PM »

I reckon my big question is: if 'they' won't diagnose BPD in a girl of 14 years, how can I hope that she'll get the 'right' treatment? Certainly, I'm no doctor but I've been thru this before and I see all the signs, behaviors, etc. I understand I can't fix this for her but I want every advantage she can get. I'm very worried that her bright future is going to go the same way as her birth mother.
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FaithHopeLove
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2020, 08:24:15 PM »

Excerpt
I reckon my big question is: if 'they' won't diagnose BPD in a girl of 14 years, how can I hope that she'll get the 'right' treatment?

I can understand your concern. It is good that you are vigilant in acting as your daughter's advocate. As I understand it psychologists and psychiatrists do not make diagnoses of personality disorders in teens because their personalities are still changing and developing. That does not necessarily mean the treatment they give them is ineffective or in appropriate. Since she is a minor you are entitled to information about her care. As I said it is great that you are on top.of it.
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twocrazycats
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2020, 09:01:48 PM »

I reckon my big question is: if 'they' won't diagnose BPD in a girl of 14 years, how can I hope that she'll get the 'right' treatment? Certainly, I'm no doctor but I've been thru this before and I see all the signs, behaviors, etc. I understand I can't fix this for her but I want every advantage she can get. I'm very worried that her bright future is going to go the same way as her birth mother.

Maybe you can't "fix" it, and maybe she won't get the "right" treatment in therapy, but from your years of reading on this site and any other research you've done, you can certainly apply the techniques of communication that are used here when you talk with her (validation, SET, etc.). It will probably go a long way to helping her heal, or at least calm down enough to get on the right track toward healing. As far as I know, there's no medication that is indicated for BPD anyway. And while I'm sure DBT works for many, I've also heard of many who haven't been helped by it. So she might not really be missing out on that much if you focus on communication.

I wish I had had this information when my daughter was 13 and I saw the first true indications of BPD. They wouldn't diagnose it because of her age, then she got Lyme Disease, and they believed all the psychiatric issues came from the Lyme. She actually spent 10 days inpatient at 13, and they found no psychiatric cause for her behavior. But it didn't really go away, and it became bad again last year when she started dating her current bf.

My daughter is also adopted. I brought her home from Romania when she was almost two years old. She was a sweet, compliant child until around 8 or 9. That also happens to be the time when she asked how she got from the hospital, as an infant, to her foster family. I thought she was old enough to hear it, so I told her that her birth mother never returned to the hospital to get her. Looking back, I see how this probably triggered a feeling of abandonment, since she was, literally, abandoned (I hadn't realized that she had created some fantasy of her birth mother lovingly handing her over to the foster family). Since then, she's been filled with rage, cares only about herself and her own needs, and she'll step on anyone who gets in the way of her meeting her own needs/wants. So I really do believe that the adoption, and then finding out she was truly abandoned, play a large role in her BPD. I also believe there's a genetic component, though, since there were several generations of birth parents who weren't able to raise their own kids.

Anyway, I, too, am in awe of all you are doing for these children, and hope to hear more about your/their progress.

2CC
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mggt
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2020, 10:09:12 PM »

Hello. Our d was also adopted at 5 days old. Birth mom was a drug addict also. Our d was very colicky never slept through the night until 9 months old. Never could self soothe. My husband says she is still colicky. 27 years later. Lol.  She’s had all bpd issues growing up. In therapy at 9 years old. I’m assuming the drugs hurt also I believe the birthmother. Also had bpd. I stayed home raised her. Thought she was the angel sent from heaven. Treated her that way. I always thought nurture over nature would prevail .  Who knows this crazy disease.  Sending everyone hugs and prayers.






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PeaceMom
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2020, 10:49:18 PM »

We brought DD home from Asia at 17 mos. She has always fantasized about her birth mom and I finally said ok let’s go back and try to find info about her. We made the journey when DD was 16. We went to the city where she was born, the adoption agency, the foster family (Out in a very remote area) and checked records. We couldn’t find that BMom had ever checked back even though I sent pictures and updates every year. It was pretty devastating to DD.

2CC, I agree that there was a genetic history of not being able to care for children in her birth Fam.

We were never told that BPD was common in adoptees. Interestingly, since we adopted DD, they’ve changed the protocol for bringing home these babies. There is a “nesting” period where you don’t leave the house with them for months. The babies are only to be around immediate family for months and months. Supposedly, this increases the likelihood of secure attachment. I will always wonder if this may have changed things for us.

DD is a swan in a family of ducks! One T said that adoption is the only trauma that society expects one to be grateful for. I try to be sensitive to these truths.

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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2020, 11:31:47 PM »

Dear peace. I never heard that before. It’s true about what your t said. A lot to think about.
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twocrazycats
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2020, 11:59:57 PM »


One T said that adoption is the only trauma that society expects one to be grateful for. 


That is so true and so well said. I'm going to pass that along to my dd.

I also tried searching for my dd's birth mom when dd was just 4 years old. The family did not seem to want to be found. Eventually, the searcher found some aunts and cousins, and the birth grandmother. But never found the birth mom.

On the other hand, just this past year, my dd did a Facebook search, and she thinks she might have found her birth mom. The name is correct, the age is correct, and she looks a lot like my dd. DD was going to write a message to her. When I asked if she did, she said no, she was afraid it would open up too many painful wounds. These adoptees with BPD have so much to deal with.

2CC
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PeaceMom
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2020, 07:27:49 AM »

We took pictures w/DD’s foster mom and dad and then I went back into all my paperwork and found a tiny picture of Birthmom and baby DD. I had it enlarged and framed it with a lovely poem about adoption. I also framed the one of DD w/foster Fam. I presented these photos in almost a  sacred way.
She proudly displays these on her shelf.
We also did Ancestry DNA and she appears to have a 2nd cousin in Sweden that was adopted from Asia. She did not choose to reach out.
Ben, thanks for bringing up this important piece in our collective puzzles -adoption! 
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BenFranklin

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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2020, 04:52:16 PM »

Do you'all think that adoption is different for daughters than boys? I've never felt traumatized and in fact am very grateful. I've spoken w/cousins and friends that said 'when i grow up i'm gonna find my real parents!' I've never felt that way. My real parents are the people who have raised me/loved me and made me the man I am. Was it some magic my mother performed? I wish I knew so that I could show my daughter a way to feel as secure as I. 
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BenFranklin

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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2020, 05:02:52 PM »

I'll add-
While I bear my birth family no ill will, I've never given them much  thought. I'm grateful they chose to give birth to me and gave me up for what ever reason. Were I approached by them, I think I'd say thanks but not have much other interest.
My parents raised me with me knowing I was adopted 'said I was their special baby. In fact a have a younger sister- she was a bit of a surprise, and when she'd tease me about being adopted, i'd return with 'mom and dad picked me out- you on the other hand, were an accident'
How does one create this kind of security?
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mggt
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2020, 05:42:16 PM »

I find that girls are much more sensitive than boys. I know our d was a very sensitive soul win  she was little. Almost to a fault. Now she has barely any empathetic.  I try to find her birth I’m when she was 12. Long story birthmom never responded. Our d was having such a hard time at that age I thought it could help. Fast forward couple years ago and she reunited with birthmom. I met her 2 times. My d was thrilled. So my h and I were happy for her. The birthmom .  As soon as we met her my h and I looked at each other and said wow apple doesn’t fall far from the tree .  We never said that to our d. We just acted happy for her. The stuff birthmom was saying to us we couldn’t believe  how she was suing adoption agency. How when we adopted our d she had to run out the backstairs of hospital how she kept our d for 10 days  none of this happened. How she shot up heroin after she gave birth. That’s true.i could go on and on. But the thing is she is exactly like our d. Telling story’s that never happened. Anger at the adoption agency  because she was doing drugs. When our d was born she had cocaine n system. Meaning birthmom had just done drugs before giving birth. But yet she was mad at the agency. Sounds so familiar our d blames us fir anything and everything.  Our d has 3 children 3 different fathers. We adore them. But she has used them as pawns against us many many times. One time for 11 months we didn’t see our gc. Thought I would die. The heartache and worry is all so consuming. Now we are in contact and birthmom is our of picture. Long story on that.  Sorry for rambling
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PeaceMom
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2020, 06:27:55 PM »

Mggt,
This is NOT rambling.  What a story! The apple and the tree, nature vs nurture... this can’t be denied.
Ben,
I really appreciate your sweet story and it’s exactly what I dreamed about when we adopted our orphaned DD. We had 3 boys ages 7, 5 and 3 and just plunked her right into the family never treating her much different. For DD, she’s a Thai beauty and sticks out like a sore thumb in our Caucasian family so that’s always been a huge part of her struggle. She saw herself as a blue eyed blond, until she didn’t.

I have friends w/adoptees who look exactly like their bio kids and they have had far less struggle.
Ben, you are aware of these challenges so that puts you in a position to be sensitive and thoughtful about how you proceed.

My hope is that someday my DD will show a bit of compassion and empathy for others w/no ulterior motive. That is my #1 wish for her.
Peacemom
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BenFranklin

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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2020, 06:55:51 PM »

I find that girls are much more sensitive than boys. I know our d was a very sensitive soul win  she was little. Almost to a fault. Now she has barely any empathetic.  I try to find her birth I’m when she was 12. Long story birthmom never responded. Our d was having such a hard time at that age I thought it could help. Fast forward couple years ago and she reunited with birthmom. I met her 2 times. My d was thrilled. So my h and I were happy for her. The birthmom .  As soon as we met her my h and I looked at each other and said wow apple doesn’t fall far from the tree .  We never said that to our d. We just acted happy for her. The stuff birthmom was saying to us we couldn’t believe  how she was suing adoption agency. How when we adopted our d she had to run out the backstairs of hospital how she kept our d for 10 days  none of this happened. How she shot up heroin after she gave birth. That’s true.i could go on and on. But the thing is she is exactly like our d. Telling story’s that never happened. Anger at the adoption agency  because she was doing drugs. When our d was born she had cocaine n system. Meaning birthmom had just done drugs before giving birth. But yet she was mad at the agency. Sounds so familiar our d blames us fir anything and everything.  Our d has 3 children 3 different fathers. We adore them. But she has used them as pawns against us many many times. One time for 11 months we didn’t see our gc. Thought I would die. The heartache and worry is all so consuming. Now we are in contact and birthmom is our of picture. Long story on that.  Sorry for rambling

I certainly agree that girls are much more sensitive than boys. Do you feel that makes them more susceptible to bph or does it have more to do with birth mother?
I have witnessed my daughter wasted out of her mind while carrying my kids. I believe that she has drugged them too  so as to get them to allow her to continue her habits. Very hard to love your daughter and not hold anger too.
My daughter had me thrown in jail for custodial interference at one point. Cps did not back me up. In my state, we have Grand parent visitation. I sued for it and fixed the problem of kids    being used as pawns. Does your state offer such? It was not that difficult nor expensive. Also good evidence when/if going for custody.

I wish I understood the nature vs nurture thing.
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StressedOutDaily
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2020, 07:28:19 PM »

Both our children were adopted.  Our son is 21 and was born in Russia, he joined our family when he was 9 months old.  He does not seem to have any interest in knowing about his birth family - or even his birth country. 

Our daughter, 16 & BPD, (born in the US,came home at 30 days) has always talked about her birth family and wanting to find them.  I remember when she was 3 she was telling some other parents on the play ground that I wasnt her real mom - and she had a birthmom that she didn't know  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  She often says when she is 18 she is going to look for her birth mom - sometimes it is to develop a relationship and at other times she says when she finds her she is going to kick her a$$ .   
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mggt
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2020, 07:37:02 PM »

Ben. I just posted. Somehow and didn’t post. I will try again
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2020, 07:44:16 PM »

I’m not sure if it was the drugs or genetics prob both.i could tell there was something off with our d. Especially around age 3. It’s hard to explain. We put our d in a rtf for 11 months al. Run with dbt. Many t many phys many programs. Many meds since age of 9. No meds till older. Nothing really worked. She has accused us of god awful things in past and swears it happened. So scary. We’ve gone to court many times. She has physically attacked me many times. Police to house many times. The thing that scares me and keeps me up at night is she does not learn  from her mistakes.  Never.  Still has hard time keeping friend.  Has boyfriends. But not quality. She was a beauty with no’s self esteem very sad.  The world was at her fingertips. She has a job works Dailey. And If you met her you would say I was the ill one. Oh and no. We don’t have grandparents rights. Unless I had oodles and oodles of money. That’s gone trying to help our d.
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BenFranklin

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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2020, 08:22:42 PM »

I have witnessed the changes to my youngest daughter- she could be a clone to her birth mother. It breaks my heart to see her go the exact same way as her birth mother.
I have also had many police/sheriff's visits, I've usually been the one to initiate but I also live 30 minutes out of town.

For what it's worth, I found the grand parents visitation wasn't expensive- here. I'm glad I did it. The judge was sympathetic. I also knew that I'd end up raising these kids and took Cps' foster care program so that we be the first call when kids got removed.
Perseverance is everything   
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BenFranklin

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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2020, 08:25:14 PM »

Both our children were adopted.  Our son is 21 and was born in Russia, he joined our family when he was 9 months old.  He does not seem to have any interest in knowing about his birth family - or even his birth country. 

Our daughter, 16 & BPD, (born in the US,came home at 30 days) has always talked about her birth family and wanting to find them.  I remember when she was 3 she was telling some other parents on the play ground that I wasnt her real mom - and she had a birthmom that she didn't know  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  She often says when she is 18 she is going to look for her birth mom - sometimes it is to develop a relationship and at other times she says when she finds her she is going to kick her a$$ .   

So, would you say, that girls are more inclined to be affected by adoption in your experience/
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