Does the BPD act with intent or are they in an alternate reality?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have been doing much reading and learning here and have a question.  When the BPD person says highly manipulative things, threatens suicide, or acts hysterical, are these behaviors intended to manipulate or do they truly believe what they are saying?  I ask because I can't imagine my mom actually means to be this hurtful and manipulative, but it's hard to imagine she doesn't know the impact these behaviors have.  She twists things so far from reality - does she really believe what she is saying?  Regardless I have to work on going NC, but it certainly adds to the guilt thinking how much this will hurt her if she doesn't even know what she is doing.  It was a lightbulb moment for me to read the line in the primer saying as we try to break free, we feel guilty that now we are just like all the other people in the BPD's life that have hurt them.  That is exactly how I have been feeling.

[lakeaffect]

I have been doing much reading and learning here and have a question.  When the BPD person says highly manipulative things, threatens suicide, or acts hysterical, are these behaviors intended to manipulate or do they truly believe what they are saying?  I ask because I can't imagine my mom actually means to be this hurtful and manipulative, but it's hard to imagine she doesn't know the impact these behaviors have.  She twists things so far from reality - does she really believe what she is saying?  Regardless I have to work on going NC, but it certainly adds to the guilt thinking how much this will hurt her if she doesn't even know what she is doing.  It was a lightbulb moment for me to read the line in the primer saying as we try to break free, we feel guilty that now we are just like all the other people in the BPD's life that have hurt them.  That is exactly how I have been feeling.

[Rev]

It was a lightbulb moment for me to read the line in the primer saying as we try to break free, we feel guilty that now we are just like all the other people in the BPD's life that have hurt them.  That is exactly how I have been feeling.

Hi,

I am not usually on this thread because my personal situation is different. But I do a lot of work with families - particularly from the p.o.v. with youth and young adults.

pwBPD are on a spectrum - and can in fact feel some sort of regret - but it's not the same kind of regret as the regret people who are not battling a personality disorder would feel. The sense of regret a pwBPD feels comes from having caused people to abandon them. Their regret is self centered whereas people who do not suffer from a personality disorder feel regretful for having hurt the feelings of another. Their regret comes from empathy.

For the child of a disordered parent, life and self understanding can become very confusing.  It is hard to feel empathy for someone who cannot return. Eventually that becomes unhealthy.

Personally, I would suggest that you understand that by putting boundaries around your relationship will hurt your mother. But understand that in the same way that when she disassociates she doesn't mean to hurt you in the moment, her lack of desire to get help in her more lucid moments leaves you little choice but to protect yourself.

So it's not you who is hurting her - she is hurting herself and the pain she feels is the pain caused by her disorder when there is no source of supply there to absorb the pain.  You and not witnessing pain that you caused. You are witnessing pain that already exists.

For sure this is painful to watch - tragic even - but there is more to be gained, I believe, in grieving your mother's illness than beating yourself up by thinking you caused it.

Hope this helps. I am so sorry that you are suffering yourself and am sending you all the positivity I can for you to find the strength to break this cycle.

Blessings,

Rev

[Harri]

I don't think they deliberately set out to hurt, manipulate or anything else in the majority of cases.

BPD is a disorder that affects emotional regulation.  In general, they can't control their emotions and will act in ways that get their needs met in the moment.  In that sense, what they say and do is real at that moment.  Deliberate intent requires the ability to think, plan, plot etc.  When a pwBPD (person with BPD) is dysregulated, they are not able to think clearly enough to plot and plan.

Now, I also believe that people learn over time what gets others to respond to them.  Even then, I don't think they do it consciously. 

[Notwendy]

Mine does both. She enjoys lying and manipulating people and has even admitted it to me. She has also deliberately done hurtful things to me, completely with intent. Sometimes when she has lied or manipulated me and I "fall for it" she gets a satisfied "gotcha" grin on her face.

Other times, when she is dysregulated, afterwards she seems to have no recall of what she said or did. I think during these times she really is in some kind of alternate state, and afterwards doesn't have much recall- kind of like when someone has gotten really drunk and doesn't recall what they did or said well.

I think somewhere she has some shame or remorse for what she has done - that she can remember somehow, but I don't think it's in the same way- like Rev said. Her way of "apologizing" is what I call the dry erase board method- pretend it didn't happen, rewrite history, as if she erased it off the board and then, we are all expected to go along with it- it didn't happen.

Probably the most disruptive thing to a possible relationship is her lying. I can understand that she has a mental illness and can't control that, but I am not able to believe anything she says to me. I don't know if she is telling me the truth or lying and manipulating me. She's that good at it. This is the largest barrier to our relationship. I don't trust her.

She isn't a criminal. I know she would not do something really bad ,but the constant lying- that's deliberate.

[pursuingJoy]

I've really struggled with this, lakeaffect.  My H says his mom can't help it so let it slide, whereas I consider intent with a host of other relevant considerations.

I'm convinced that my MIL genuinely dissociates and can't remember, and she's learned unhealthy ways of relating to get what she wants. For the sake of argument, most of what I read about BPD says it's treatable if the person engages in treatment. IMHO, this indicates at least some level of choice in the matter.

I can understand how it's hard to set boundaries if it means hurting your mom. I like what Rev says, what you see is the hurt that's already there. Hang in there and keep us posted.

[TelHill]

I am guessing that bpd causes the emotional dysregulation to occur due to a trigger - like on auto pilot. It also makes them decide to deliberately lie and hurt loved ones with premeditation since our normal behavior makes them think we are emotionally abusing them.

There is so little we still know about this disorder. I hope there is more information and help for all in the near future.

[Notwendy]

I can see where my mother is motivated by her feeling of being a victim. It is way out of proportion to what is actually happening. It's almost as if we ( her children )can't do something nice for her- in her mind. If I try to give her any helpful advice, she feels invalidated. She's controlling so if we try to do something nice for her, she takes it over. If we say no to her or have a boundary, we are "hurting her terribly. "


The "payback" for something even minor on our part is huge. It might be because to her, it isn't "minor". However the lies and her response are hurtful enough to result in us keeping an emotional distance from her. She's also an adult and is accountable for her actions, regardless.

We do give her the benefit of the doubt, but it's difficult to have a relationship with someone with these behaviors.

Then, to her friends and family, she presents us as horrible uncaring children who don't help her. We do visit and try to help, but our efforts are often thwarted by her controlling behavior or how she interprets them.

[zachira]

I would say it is a little bit of both. Sometimes the person with BPD is intentionally cruel and other times disassociated. From my experience, what is most important to remember is people with BPD do not have empathy, and they experience people not being who they want them to be in the moment as abandonment. My mother with BPD (now deceased) and siblings with BPD was/are extremely cruel people yet they could be/can be extremely generous at times. I take a lot of their behaviors as splits in personality, and that these two extremes in personality are not necessarily all that conscious of one another at times.
People we can trust are those who are the same person most of the time, and generally respectful and kind to other people. With healthy people, there are no big surprises with how they respond; usually the biggest surprise is how they respond with integrity and incredible strength in the most difficult of times.

[Longterm]

I asked my therapist this same question a while back and she said what others have said here. Sometimes it is done consciously and sometimes subconsciously. The end result is pretty much the same though.

I have had instances where it is done very, very deliberately and other times where I have seen it's not deliberate at all. Unfortunately it just adds to the confusion that is part of dealing with cluster B.

LT.