It's tough to not look back at the dozens of opportunities and red flags

[alleyesonme]

This is my first post here. I initially read about this forum in the Stop Walking on Eggshells book, and have been meaning to start posting here for several months now. My wife and I have been married for about 4 years, and she has high functioning BPD - that book describes her perfectly. We have a daughter that is almost 2 years old. I love my daughter more than anything in the world, but wish I'd had her with someone else. She's the only reason I haven't divorced my wife yet.

Just reading that book and then reading a lot of the posts on this forum have given me a huge sense of relief that I'm not alone in dealing with this. One issue I've been having trouble with is that it's tough to not look back at the dozens of opportunities and red flags where I should have left my wife before she even got pregnant. I try not to, but I tend to beat myself up over that on a regular basis.

Any tips you guys can share? I just feel like such an idiot, and that one decision has had a significantly negative impact on my life.  

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[worriedStepmom]

Past you did the best you could with the information you had.  Past you couldn't make decisions based on what current you knows (unless you invent time travel).

Now you have more information, so you can make better choices in the future.

I found it really helpful to have a therapist to work through some of my guilt and frustration and sadness.  Have you considered reaching out to a professional to help you with that?

[alleyesonme]

Thank you for the reply, your perspective and sharing your experiences. It's very difficult to get any privacy due to the way my wife is, but I did recently have my first session with a therapist. The second session is in about a week. I'm hoping this will help me cope with this entire situation, which is extremely complicated.

As a follow up question, any tips to avoid feeling absolute hatred for the BP? As one of the passages in the book said, I realize that you wouldn't hate a person for having diabetes, so deep down I know I need to work toward not hating my wife for having this mental illness. But she's genuinely made my life miserable, so not hating her for that is much easier said than done.

[juju2]

I guess anything is possible.

Of course it's possible to stop having hatred.

So much of my life depends on my state of mind.   Which also depends on me taking care of my well being.

My thoughts tell me how I am doing.
When it's chaos up there, in my head, I need to get space, rest,food, calm, beauty.  All of the things I need in life.  Pause.   Being in this relationship requires me to take excellent care of myself.

People can say, why bother.  There are easy, great people out there.   Really.
Nothing is without work.   Work on myself.

And as far as there being easy, great, mates for me, out there.  I fell in love w him.   Not them.

[alleyesonme]

Thank you for your advice! Your perspective is very impressive.

My state of mind is a work in progress, as this whole thing can be very overwhelming at times, so it's only natural to have extreme resentment toward my BP wife. I need to continue working on that.

[juju2]

You are welcome.

This perspective is a daily, sometimes hourly perspective.

before I act, literally before i get out of bed

Who do I want to be.  Give me the strength to pause.  Pause.   Pause one more time.   Give me the courage to be.
Give me the courage to he aware of my mind set.  To corral those thoughts that would have me act in a way that is against, that hinders, that hates.

Let me find a quiet, loving, way that affirms.

[once removed]

hi alleyesonme, and

One issue I've been having trouble with is that it's tough to not look back at the dozens of opportunities and red flags where I should have left my wife before she even got pregnant. I try not to, but I tend to beat myself up over that on a regular basis.

i know what you mean. i felt that way after i was dumped, "why did i get into this in the first place".

Just reading that book and then reading a lot of the posts on this forum have given me a huge sense of relief that I'm not alone in dealing with this.

youre not alone in this, and there is a huge sense of empowerment that comes from that discovery. the question becomes what you will do with that empowerment; how will you use it?

Any tips you guys can share?
...
As a follow up question, any tips to avoid feeling absolute hatred for the BP?

i get the sense that in spite of the knowledge youve gained, you feel very trapped, and very hopeless.

make no mistake: things didnt get to the point they are at over night. they will not improve over night. but it really can get better.

start by telling us more. why do you have hatred for your wife?

[alleyesonme]

Once Removed - thank you!

I'm still trying to figure out how to use the empowerment gained from realizing I'm not alone here. I'm hopeful that I can learn from a lot of the posters here who have been dealing with this for longer than I have. As we all know, it's extremely complicated, stressful and hard.

Yes, trapped and hopeless - DING DING DING!

As for why I feel hatred for my wife, in a lot of ways, she's ruined my life. Every second of every day, I never know when she'll lob some ridiculous accusations my way, criticize me, complain, lash out, become verbally abusive, or even physically abusive. It's beyond exhausting, and I deserve so much better than that. On one hand, I'm absolutely disgusted with myself for letting it get to this point, but I also feel a massive amount of resentment/hatred for her due to inflicting so much pain on me over the years and doing absolutely nothing to make it better. I have zero desire to remain married to her, but we have a daughter that's almost 2 years old, so that's why I'm still married.

[once removed]

things sound difficult, for sure.

ill cut to the chase:

we know that you are suffering. trapped, hopeless. it sounds awful.

you havent yet told us much about what is going on, what has gone on between the two of you.

learning about this disorder can be an invaluable tool...it can change your life. it can mean that there really is hope...whatever you decide to do, in terms of the relationship. i havent been in my relationship for 9 years, but im not exaggerating when i say learning the tools here was the best thing to ever happen to me.

it will help us help and support you to know more about whats going on, and knowing what has gone on (physical abuse is especially important) will also inform that.

[juju2]

agree w what has been shared here.

The lessons given, learned, re learned. Learned again.

I have access to tools, that can change my life.

It looks like this person w bpd has upended my life.  I have hated.  What I am getting to is dealing with me.  Myself.  My mind set, what is running me, triggering.

Even being at my wits end, finished, is a place to be.  I have been.

It's been a journey I never wanted, and couldn't avoid. 

i guess it's about giving up.  i am not going to win the battle.  And it isn't my battle.

Having tools to be in this journey, an empowered person, who can do what I want.  It's my life.  The gift that I get, is, its my life.

If I cannot lose sight of what I do want.  If I cannot lose sight.

[alleyesonme]

We met about 7 years ago when we were living in the same town. I came to find out that she was in a committed relationship, so we didn't ever go out for that first year. About a year after meeting, she became single, but I was living across the country. We started talking more and more, and had some deep conversations over the phone. In my mind, I knew I was ready to settle down if I met the right person, and she was really starting to check off a lot of boxes for me during those phone calls.

She came out to visit for a weekend, and it went well. We started talking more and more after that, and then she came out to visit again a month or two later, this time for two weeks. That visit was awesome, and we ended up saying I love you by the end of that visit. I started to see some signs of her irritability, but the good was definitely outweighing the bad.

I then came to stay with her for two months while I had time off from work. We continued to get closer and develop stronger feelings for each other, and there was a super high level of physical chemistry between us. Also, I work in a very demanding industry, and it was very refreshing for me the way she showed how much she supported and believed in me. However, the more time we spent with each other, the more I saw what should have been major red flags to me.

There were massive double standards with her, as she would flip out if a female friend (with no previous romantic history) of mine contacted me, but I was supposed to be ok with her ex-boyfriend calling and texting and trying to get her back. She also tried to control which of my guy friends that I talked to and how long we would talk. She would yell at me for some of the dumbest stuff - like having the audacity to take a shower before asking her if it was ok if I did so when she was clearly not getting ready to shower herself. She would also frequently snap at me for asking innocent, reasonable questions that are part of everyday life (what time is that show on, which wifi network is ours, what time does that event start, etc.). Not to get too graphic, but she also started yelling at me at times while we were being intimate if I took too long to finish or didn't finish in the position she wanted me to.

All that being said, we were still growing closer together, and I was very much in love with her. I then moved back to the location of my employment, so we did the long-distance thing for the next year. She would come out to visit once or twice a month, and we also had some extended (anywhere from 2-6 week) visits in there. When we were apart, we fought all the time about me not talking on the phone enough to her, despite the fact that I was working long hours and still making time for at least one hour-long conversation with her every night in addition to 2-3 other conversations of 15+ minutes each. She became the first person in my adult life to hang up the phone on me, and that has happened hundreds of times since. Over the course of our relationship, she's told me she hates me dozens of times, told me to go F myself hundreds of times, told me she hopes I die, etc.

During one fight, I had a half-full hard plastic bottle of one-a-day vitamins sitting on the kitchen counter, and she actually picked it up and threw it at my head. It missed my head, cracking in half on the kitchen cabinet above me. She swore that she intentionally missed me with it, but I don't believe that.

She also had a knack for saying some extremely hurtful things to me during fights - painful secrets that I'd revealed to her from my past, and she'd bring them up again just to hurt me.

In my line of work, I'm frequently in the presence of attractive females, and she would flip out when she found out I was in the same location as them, regardless of whether or not I even talked to anyone.

She has intense road rage, and I know she's trying hard when I'm there to not be as bad with it, which is scary as to what it's like when I'm not there. I'd say 99.9% of our fights were started because she yelled at me for doing/not doing something exactly how she wanted me to.

Throughout this whole period, in calmer moments, she'd tell me that the root of all of the conflict was that she was really scared about the long distance between us and everything would be so much better if we lived in the same city. I was skeptical, because I know long distance can be stressful, but it still doesn't give anyone the right to treat me how she did, but I somehow bought it anyway.

We moved in together after that year, and instead of everything getting better, they got worse. She was yelling at me and criticizing me for everything - whistling a song while hanging out at home, sitting on the wrong couch cushion, not memorizing where every single item goes, taking up too much space with my stuff despite the fact that her things took up 99% of the place, etc. Tons of no-win situations, such as yelling at me three days in a row when I'd offer to help her carry something, as she'd tell me she didn't need my help. Then on day four, I wouldn't offer, and she'd go off on me for not offering. Or asking what I want for dinner - chicken or beef - and insisting that either one is fine. Whichever one I chose, she'd start yelling at me for choosing that. That pattern was repeated in so many areas of our lives.

She also continued to try to control everything I did - when I showered, when I slept, where I sat, etc. I was really starting to see her true colors at this point, as we were in her element and seeing each other every day. One time we were in the car literally 1 block away from my friend's house and had made plans to go over there, and she just refused to go, saying she wouldn't know what to say. So I had to make something up with my friend to cancel our plans. This entire period, she would insist that she was now really stressed out that I hadn't proposed to her, and she was worried that the reason I hadn't proposed is that she was too mean to me, so that's why she was lashing out at me. Somehow that made sense in her twisted logic. She insisted that if I proposed, everything would be better.

I wasn't even considering proposing at first, but then we had a good week about two months later, and I made the worst decision of my life by proposing. She even yelled at me the night we got engaged as we were leaving the house to go out. She yelled at me because we were leaving 1 minute later than she wanted to for dinner, and then yelled at me for not parking in the space she wanted me to park.

The first two days after we got engaged were amazing, and then everything got even worse than it'd ever been. She became even more of a raging monster, and now insisted that the reason she was being so mean was that she was stressed about planning the wedding, so everything would be fine once we actually got married. During one fight, which started because I dared to get in the shower without first getting her permission, she ended up taking all of my belongings and throwing them outside in the snow.

We continued to fight all the time, with no-win situations galore and tons of criticism and insults headed my way. We got in a big fight while being intimate the night before we were supposed to get engagement pictures taken. Same issues in that fight as mentioned above. I insisted that we cancel the pictures, and she lost it. Somehow I stayed in the relationship and we rescheduled the pictures.

We got in another huge fight on the way back from a vacation with her family. We'd agreed that we'd stay for a certain length of time, and then while we were there, she started pressuring me to stay an extra week, even though she knew I had to get back home for work. The fact that I refused to stay set her off, so we had a miserable 10 hour car ride home where she yelled at me for everything - going too fast, going too slow, listening to the wrong song, having the music on too loud or too quiet, etc. This was less than a month before our wedding.

When we got back, I had something I needed some help with for my job. For some context, she would ask me to help her with stuff for her job all the time, even when I was under a strict deadline with my job, and she expected me to risk missing my deadline in order to help her. This was the first time I'd ever asked for her help with my job, and she refused because it "wasn't her job" to help me and she didn't feel like it. I literally started to pack a small bag to leave for a few days and rethink whether I should actually marry her, but as I was leaving, she convinced me to stay.

We got married, then fought a lot on our honeymoon. We continued fighting when we got back, and she now insisted that she was stressed out about her not being pregnant yet, so she'd be much nicer to me when we got pregnant. Less than a month after our wedding, she kicked me out of the house. I forgot to mention this earlier, but at some point during every fight, she would threaten to break up with me and/or tell me to get out of the house. I was sick of her doing that, so I called her bluff, packed a small bag and took off this time. As I was getting into my car and pulling away, she came outside in disbelief and begged me to stay, but I left anyway. I turned my phone off that night so she couldn't call me 100 times, and she sent a bunch of mean emails that night. I came back home the next day and things got a little better.

I told her we weren't ready yet to have a child together, so we continued to practice birth control. A few months later, despite things not getting any better, I told her I thought we were ready, and she was ecstatic. Two or three months later, we still hadn't gotten pregnant, but we got into a huge fight where she once again exhibited extreme double standards and expected me to be okay with it. I was literally about to tell her I wanted a divorce right then, but in the back of my mind, I realized that she could be pregnant. Sure enough, 2 weeks later, we found out she was pregnant. Part of me was excited, but part of me was devastated because I wanted out.

Unfortunately, we actually had a miscarriage about 6 weeks later, and that was really hard for both of us. It was extremely sad to lose the baby, but I knew this was my opportunity to get out of the marriage and escape the madness. For whatever unbelievably stupid reason, I didn't divorce her then. We'd only been married for about 9 months, and I think I was worried about what people would think with us getting divorced so quickly. I also felt guilty about the idea of leaving her shortly after the miscarriage. We continued to fight more than ever, I continued to not be happy at all, and I had an opportunity to leave, but didn't.

Over the next few months, things continued to get worse. There's one moment that I'll never forget. It was a summer evening, and she'd just started her period that day, so I knew she wasn't pregnant. I was beyond fed up, and was planning to tell her the following day that I wanted a divorce. After she went to bed that night, I was going to pack up as much as I could without setting off any obvious alarms in her mind until I delivered the news. Right then, she started talking about the meals she was planning on cooking during the coming week, and something about the confidence in our future that I detected in her voice somehow convinced me to stay. I still should have told her we needed to take a break from trying to get pregnant, but I didn't, because I knew she'd flip out if I said that. Sure enough, we got pregnant a week or two later.

Again, I was excited to hear she was pregnant, but part of me was also devastated. That hurts to type now, as my daughter is amazing and I can't imagine my life without her - just wish I'd had her with someone else. Anyone else.

My wife was even worse to me during the pregnancy than ever before, and she insisted that it was because of her hormones and that everything would get better when the baby was born. Once our daughter was born, it got even worse. That's when the physical violence started to ramp up - lots of hard pushes, a slap in the head while I was driving the three of us on the freeway, she threw a handful of coins at me from close range (but fortunately none of them hit me), some elbows, etc. Every time I mention one of those episodes, she claims it either didn't happen or that I keep harping on the past and pointing out all her faults.

We've both admitted to each other that the only reason we haven't gotten divorced is because of our daughter. We haven't been intimate since early in her pregnancy, and I refuse to go near her because she's so mean that I've lost all attraction for her. She calls me a controlling a-hole because I won't have sex with her, completely glossing over the reason why.

My wife's sister is much nicer and more normal than my wife is, but she's actually been diagnosed with BPD. She has been going to a DBT therapist for several years and has made a ton of progress. Their family mocks her, says nothing was ever wrong and that she's a kook for going to a therapist, and no one thinks my wife needs to do anything. They all think I'm too sensitive.

Their dad fought in Vietnam and had severe PTSD that he only recently began to get treated for. Mental illness clearly runs in the family.

There's a lot more I could type, but this is plenty for now, and I think it gives you a good idea of what she's like and what our life is like.

[juju2]

My heart goes out to you.

I think you are describing bpd symptoms, full blown and the whole range.

So, I have a story similar and yet different in details.  The road rage is actually one of the classic symptoms.

I think there is a spectrum.
What I see working in our relationship, and I have heard it here too, is my presence can be moderating (or not).

I can serve to bring this all to a more normal level, by half.  I want to live consciously.
For me the good outweighs the bad.

I have kids w my ex husb.
Kids are significant to me and my decisions. (My ex did not have bpd as far as I know.)  My kids are grown now.

You have a lot to weigh.  No hurry.

So so so much depends on my mind set.
If I can tend to that mindset with loving, daily, care.  I can bring a garden of understanding.  I can change my life...

What is a game changer is finding one thing the two of you can do together, fun.
Go play pool.  Bowling.
Something take the pressure off.

You are like I can be, caught up in all of this and now it looks like IT IS ALL of this.

You have a foundation of attraction, chemistry. A daughter.

Use tools here, read here.
See how others successfully do this.

You have let yourself--your mindset--go to the weeds.

I did that.  I can do that.

Daily, tend my mindset garden.  Examine my thoughts.  Pull those weeds.  Gently rake my garden.

There is beautiful flowers and fruit there.
If I have eyes to see.

I can do this by not holding on to the bad stuff.  So I am not a victim of this person, of their disorder.  Tend my garden.  My mindset.

[alleyesonme]

Amback - thank you for reading and for the thoughtful response. I don't always have the privacy to post on here, so please forgive my delay in replies at times.

To clarify, is it your current partner that has BPD? And if so, has that affected your relationship with your kids (who aren't his) at all? I'd be curious to hear about some of the challenges you've faced with that and how you've juggled it.

Completely agree with you that I have a lot to weigh and there's no reason to rush anything. A lot of my friends and family want me to divorce her yesterday and push for full custody, but this is a huge decision I have in front of me, and I know I'm not ready to do anything yet.

I would love to do something fun with her, but the issue is that every time we try to, she gets pissed about something, finds something to complain about or criticizes me about something. She's been asking to do more fun things as a couple, but I have no desire to do so because I feel like I'm just setting myself up for a guaranteed rage. We had two awful fights last weekend, but the past few days have been the best we've had in awhile, so maybe I'll give a date a shot again soon if we continue with this positive momentum.

Regarding the attraction and chemistry, I honestly feel like those were with a completely different person at this point. There's so much pain that I've endured over the past several years that I don't know how we get back to how it was. As was mentioned in "Stop Walking on Eggshells," it's almost like the person I fell in love with has died, and I have to come to grips with that and find a way to make it work with this new person.

Serious question - do you still love your current partner? I don't wish any ill-will on my wife, but I absolutely do not love her anymore. How do I stay in what's supposed to be a loving relationship with someone I don't love? Without even knowing it, my daughter is giving me so much strength every single day.

How do you let go of the bad stuff? I know I need to do that, and I've been trying to, but I'm struggling with that. I've been reading as much as I can, meditating and recently began seeing a therapist.

[juju2]

Hi

So yes I love my estranged boyfriend.
He has all the qualities I looked for in a partner.  He even told me about his disorder, bpd.
The relationship has affected my kids, they don't understand the behaviour.
They don't know about his disorder.
The challenge I face is to be strong.
No one understands.  It's not my place to get them to understand.

It makes things worse if I share my problems w him to my kids, close friends.
They are expedient in wanting to chop, dice, and slice up my precious life.

I learned it is best to not share anything I am going thru w him with them.
They can't handle it and are horrible advisors.

I read on here, to find one or two or more, support people.  Not a therapist.
I am talking someone who will listen.  Just listen.  This has to be someone whom I can trust and someone whom I see has gone thru things and I appreciate and trust their judgement.

I am sharing the precious matters of my heart.  I am not interested in my loved ones' ideas around carving up my life.

Fun.   It is critical.!

One thing to just do.  Do not be discouraged by this or that.  Be single minded...
Schedule it, we are doing x, on Monday nite. Or Sunday afternoon.
I got a babysitter.  ( It's going to be challenging.  W the social distancing...)
It could be a surprise.  Pack her favorite coffee, cookies, go feed the ducks at the park.!  The first dates are going to be super simple.!
It could really be uncharted territory.
Just do it!  You guys need to build your fun capital in your relationship bank account.   Your fun account is way overdrawn. ( This could be a little stressful at first.   It's hard to be single minded because I can so easily be put off.  Belay that.)  So progress.   Progress
Not perfection... 
And get intention complete...have an idea about what you are creating...is it simply fun, being together, creating some us time...this intention helps me.  Where am I coming from...you are creating something...this is fun!   Like I said, it could be challenging, you will need to be gentle with yourself and with her...
You don't have a lot of skill with this...and you will.

All of this.  This takes a special person.
And you are a special person because you haven't been chased off.           y. e. t.

The people w bpd have had so many heart breaks.  All they know is running someone off who they love.
That is heartbreaking.  All of this you have been thru is attempt to run you off.

The other thing is. Sand.   and Stone.

I choose what to write in each...

I carefully write in Stone.
I write most stuff in sand.

Know the difference.
It is my life.

[juju2]

p.s.
your simple date is going to be something like painting rocks, feeding the ducks, skipping rocks.
enjoying your coffee. wrap up her favorite cookie. Simple can be fun. (No cell phones...silence cell phones.  That would be the one ground rule...)

All that is going on is spending precious time together.
during this time, say 1 hour, I give no place for anger, meanness.   am going to be a generous, kind, funny,  space that we will enjoy being with one another...
nothing will I allow to upset or cause me to say something angry.

you may want to have this time be just one hour...you will figure it out.

[alleyesonme]

Awesome advice in general and tips for the dates!

I must admit, the idea of that much one-on-one time with her goes against my better judgment to a certain extent, because it feels like I'm just setting myself up for another rage or 10. But if this is ever going to turn around, that's one extremely uncomfortable step that I may need to take.

[once removed]

There's a lot more I could type, but this is plenty for now, and I think it gives you a good idea of what she's like and what our life is like.

it does.

okay. youve given us a lot to work with, and it will really help.

you love(?) a very difficult person. you love(?) a jealous and controlling person.

these may seem like obvious things. theyre a big part of why youre here, and they are things many of us, myself included, can immediately relate to. i had a very jealous partner.

but accept, and i mean really accept, that these things are a part of her personality and unlikely to change. accept that a good week or month is not long term stability.

because when you really accept it, thats when you are in a much better position to navigate.

think of it this way: the seeds of the dynamics of your relationship were planted a long time ago. its a little bit (not at all a direct comparison) like having a difficult breed of dog for seven years, and then going to obedience school. both of you by now have bad habits that are pretty ingrained. the very foundation of your relationship was built on coping in ways you will both want/need to revisit. but no one would tell you that its too late to do, or that you cant change anything, or get on a much better trajectory. you can. you really can. but it has to start with you. theres a lot to learn, and a lot to unlearn. and that in and of itself can make an unstable relationship more unstable before it ever becomes more stable.

your wife, historically, actually gives you a lot of clues to the conflict between you. its not the full picture, but its revealing, and something you can work with. for example, when she said the problems were about the distance, or stress about getting married. those things are real, very real. and really anything thats stressful, or that might threaten a relationship, is going to be more pronounced when it comes to someone with bpd traits.

so on one hand, thats what i mean about acceptance. you recognize that if you were to give your wife the moon, shes still going to be a difficult person. there is no "fixing" that.

on the other, what shes expressing is real, but limited or badly communicated. and the more that you are able to listen with empathy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy) the more you are likely to get to the bottom of it, and that can be very productive. it builds trust.

now all of that is nice and well meaning, but it ignores that you have, for a while, wanted out of the relationship. the relationship has been on the rocks for a long time. changing that will require a lifestyle change, a huge effort and commitment. its possible. ive seen some of the worst situations here turned around in my time. but it really depends on where you are with all of this. for another analogy, its like trying to lose weight. losing 25 pounds is one thing, losing 250 is another. both are achievable, but the latter requires a lifestyle change and a big commitment.

have a read of this and let us know what stage your relationship is in from where youre sitting: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

im trying, in writing you, to give you some impression that things really can change, and what it will take. but think about this hard. are you in a position where you want to make that commitment to save your marriage, are you in a position where you want to get along and "stay together for the kid", or do you want out?

you dont have to know right now, and option 1 and 2 dont necessarily look dissimilar in the immediate path, but we can help you in whichever path you choose.

[juju2]

the other thing I need to share is I got divorced from a non bpd. Our kids were 9 and 4.
My T was very helpful. He seemed to encourage the divorce, it was what I wanted.

 Looking back, I had gone to a T. that did not have children.  The effect of the divorce on kids was totally missing in my sessions w T.

Long story short, divorce was devastating on my kids. Worse than being in the bad marriage...i can't go back and re write this.
All I know is, leaving, breaking up a marriage, w young kids involved, is truly devastating and those years--age 9 thru 21-- before things got better---granted teenage years are difficult to begin w.
My ex got involved w someone who abused drugs, alcohol. She would routinely drive my kids around.  They were exposed 50% of the time to harmful.

Those days were crazy. My ex became so unrecognizable, doing things that were harmful to my children.  Not anything I could take direct action on...
I would be remiss to leave this out of my story.

Could I have stayed.  Would it have been better for my kids.  I cannot know the answer.

One thing I do know.  I was totally unprepared for the he! that was unleashed because of the divorce.  The depth of craziness, disregard for our kids...
And he did not have a pd.
I share these things because there are real consequences to breaking up w kids involved.  My life truly got worse.

I only have 50% or less control when divorce is involved. 
Am I prepared to watch my beloved kids go thru life threatening things...i never ever thought for one minute any of this could possibly happen to my family...
I guess the only way to navigate is be aware of what is out there.

Fear is a good motivator.  Suffice to say getting a divorce opened can of worms that seemed to get worse and worse.
I was looking for relief.
I got a way worse lifestyle for 12 years or so...i did not in no way get relief.

I never went back to T.  I SO wanted to say, wow, how did we miss the unintended consequences!

All of this to say, choose carefully.  Listen to experience.  Experience with what my circumstances actually are.

It was foolish on my part to go to a T. that had no kids. and was not divorced.
All my bad.  It is on me for making those bad choices...

[juju2]

All,

I guess what my message is.

Be strong.

Do what it takes, mindfulness, self care--everything you read regarding well being.

Being in a place of strength gives wisdom
around life changing steps.  In any direction. Towards or away.

And more importantly, being of clear mind, I can make course corrections, willingness. 

I cannot overstate self awareness.

[alleyesonme]

it does.

okay. youve given us a lot to work with, and it will really help.

you love(?) a very difficult person. you love(?) a jealous and controlling person.

these may seem like obvious things. theyre a big part of why youre here, and they are things many of us, myself included, can immediately relate to. i had a very jealous partner.

but accept, and i mean really accept, that these things are a part of her personality and unlikely to change. accept that a good week or month is not long term stability.

because when you really accept it, thats when you are in a much better position to navigate.

think of it this way: the seeds of the dynamics of your relationship were planted a long time ago. its a little bit (not at all a direct comparison) like having a difficult breed of dog for seven years, and then going to obedience school. both of you by now have bad habits that are pretty ingrained. the very foundation of your relationship was built on coping in ways you will both want/need to revisit. but no one would tell you that its too late to do, or that you cant change anything, or get on a much better trajectory. you can. you really can. but it has to start with you. theres a lot to learn, and a lot to unlearn. and that in and of itself can make an unstable relationship more unstable before it ever becomes more stable.

your wife, historically, actually gives you a lot of clues to the conflict between you. its not the full picture, but its revealing, and something you can work with. for example, when she said the problems were about the distance, or stress about getting married. those things are real, very real. and really anything thats stressful, or that might threaten a relationship, is going to be more pronounced when it comes to someone with bpd traits.

so on one hand, thats what i mean about acceptance. you recognize that if you were to give your wife the moon, shes still going to be a difficult person. there is no "fixing" that.

on the other, what shes expressing is real, but limited or badly communicated. and the more that you are able to listen with empathy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy) the more you are likely to get to the bottom of it, and that can be very productive. it builds trust.

now all of that is nice and well meaning, but it ignores that you have, for a while, wanted out of the relationship. the relationship has been on the rocks for a long time. changing that will require a lifestyle change, a huge effort and commitment. its possible. ive seen some of the worst situations here turned around in my time. but it really depends on where you are with all of this. for another analogy, its like trying to lose weight. losing 25 pounds is one thing, losing 250 is another. both are achievable, but the latter requires a lifestyle change and a big commitment.

have a read of this and let us know what stage your relationship is in from where youre sitting: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

im trying, in writing you, to give you some impression that things really can change, and what it will take. but think about this hard. are you in a position where you want to make that commitment to save your marriage, are you in a position where you want to get along and "stay together for the kid", or do you want out?

you dont have to know right now, and option 1 and 2 dont necessarily look dissimilar in the immediate path, but we can help you in whichever path you choose.

Very good point about acceptance. That's definitely something I need to continue to work on. Have you (or anyone else here) witnessed someone with BPD really changing the way they view the world after extensive therapy? Quick example here - one day my wife and daughter fell asleep together in the nursery while I was working in the next room. After a bit, I started to get really tired as well, so I ended up taking a nap on the couch while they slept. A little later, I woke up to my wife screaming at me. Apparently it was raining outside, she'd left her car windows down and it had to be my fault somehow that the interior of her car got soaked. I was supposed to know that her windows were down and know that it was raining despite the fact that she clearly saw that I was sleeping. Whether it's through DBT or any other type of therapy, is it possible for someone to change the way they're wired and re-learn how to process things? Or do I have to accept that she'll always process things in a completely delusional way like that?

On the relationship breakdown spectrum, we're definitely at level four. I call her out when she treats me poorly and stand up for my daughter when my wife is too harsh with her. Other than that, though, I really consciously and subconsciously do everything I can to minimize my interactions with my wife. I know this approach isn't going to get us out of this hole, but I also know that trying to interact with her for several years literally almost killed me.

For my own health and safety, my goal each day has been to take care of my obligations (my job and chores), spend as much time as possible with my daughter, and then take care of myself as best possible. This means staying in shape, getting at least a little sleep, eating well, etc.

It's almost impossible to maintain a legit friendship with anyone because we live over an hour away from all of my friends, and any time she sees/hears that I got a text on my phone, she immediately becomes suspicious. If I talk to anyone on the phone, she listens to the entire conversation and then grills me about different parts of it (what was so funny? Why did you say "I know what you mean?" Last time, you two talked for 10 minutes. Why was it so much longer this time? etc.).

You're absolutely right about how we've really dug ourselves a huge hole with the ingrained habits we've created together in this relationship, and those are two great analogies. For a little more background, I believe that a child can sense distress in its mom while in the womb, and that a significant amount of conflict while the child is in the womb can cause strong enough emotions in the mother that ultimately imprint on the child as it enters the world. Because of that, I was somewhat proud of the way I asserted myself with my wife before we got pregnant, but I intentionally backed off significantly during the pregnancy. There were still some moments where I stood up to her and asserted myself, but not nearly as much as I was doing before the pregnancy. My intent was good here, but in retrospect, I probably set myself up for what has happened since, as I think she began to take it for granted that she could walk all over me and has therefore lashed out even harder in the last 1-2 years when I've stood up to her.

We do need a lifestyle change, and I know now that I can play a part in that. I know I'm not perfect in that regard and that I still have a lot of work to do, but I'm proud of myself for working at it. I only wish she'd put in half of that work on her end to create some lasting change.

As for what I want, I really have no idea. This is unbelievably hard and complicated, and is further complicated exponentially because we have a child together. What I want for myself is to be able to live in peace and be happy. Unless my wife changes drastically, that won't be possible with her. The most important thing, though, is what's best for my daughter. If my wife can change significantly and will put in the work to do so, then I know I'm strong enough to hang in there. If she's not willing to do it, then I have no idea what I'll do. It would be absolutely crushing to put my daughter through a divorce, but on the other hand, a divorce may be in her best interest in the long run. Can't believe I got myself into this situation.

[alleyesonme]

the other thing I need to share is I got divorced from a non bpd. Our kids were 9 and 4.
My T was very helpful. He seemed to encourage the divorce, it was what I wanted.

 Looking back, I had gone to a T. that did not have children.  The effect of the divorce on kids was totally missing in my sessions w T.

Long story short, divorce was devastating on my kids. Worse than being in the bad marriage...i can't go back and re write this.
All I know is, leaving, breaking up a marriage, w young kids involved, is truly devastating and those years--age 9 thru 21-- before things got better---granted teenage years are difficult to begin w.
My ex got involved w someone who abused drugs, alcohol. She would routinely drive my kids around.  They were exposed 50% of the time to harmful.

Those days were crazy. My ex became so unrecognizable, doing things that were harmful to my children.  Not anything I could take direct action on...
I would be remiss to leave this out of my story.

Could I have stayed.  Would it have been better for my kids.  I cannot know the answer.

One thing I do know.  I was totally unprepared for the he! that was unleashed because of the divorce.  The depth of craziness, disregard for our kids...
And he did not have a pd.
I share these things because there are real consequences to breaking up w kids involved.  My life truly got worse.

I only have 50% or less control when divorce is involved. 
Am I prepared to watch my beloved kids go thru life threatening things...i never ever thought for one minute any of this could possibly happen to my family...
I guess the only way to navigate is be aware of what is out there.

Fear is a good motivator.  Suffice to say getting a divorce opened can of worms that seemed to get worse and worse.
I was looking for relief.
I got a way worse lifestyle for 12 years or so...i did not in no way get relief.

I never went back to T.  I SO wanted to say, wow, how did we miss the unintended consequences!

All of this to say, choose carefully.  Listen to experience.  Experience with what my circumstances actually are.

It was foolish on my part to go to a T. that had no kids. and was not divorced.
All my bad.  It is on me for making those bad choices...

Thank you for the info. You're absolutely right that there are so many things that can happen if we get divorced that could make everything much worse, and there's no way to predict any of it. And if she has BPD and acts like this when we're together, it's certainly possible that she'll get even worse after the divorce. That's definitely another factor that I've been considering, and one of the reasons this is so complicated. A good friend of mine recently told me, "you're still young and you deserve to be happy," as a gentle way of nudging me to end it. While I agree with that, you're right that there's no guarantee that my life will be any better if I get divorced. And in fact, it could get much worse.

There are so many layers to this. Ideally, I'd love to have at least one more child, and preferably two. But I'm obviously not going to do that with my wife unless she somehow becomes a completely different person at some point in the future. So if she doesn't make a significant change and I decide to stay with her, I won't have any more kids, I may never have any happiness or fulfillment in my romantic life again, and my daughter won't grow up around a healthy marriage. And we haven't been intimate at all in over two years, and I can't see that happening any time soon, as I'm disgusted by her. I consider myself to have a ton of will power, but there's no way I can go another 15+ years without having that at all.

I plan to continue seeing my therapist, trying to implement the tips you guys are recommending and that I'm reading about, and working on myself as much as possible. At some point in the next year or two, I think I'll give her an ultimatum saying that she needs to start seeing a DBT therapist on a regular basis and make significant progress over the next year, or else I'm gone. That will obviously be a very combative conversation, but I do think there's a chance to go along with it once she calms down.

As for your situation, especially since your ex didn't have a PD, I don't think there was any way to foresee that everything would unfold how it did. Is he still with her? And has he ever acknowledged how awful of a mistake he made by letting her into your kids' lives? With you both being normal people, it was fair to assume that his next partner would be somewhat normal as well. That sucks that you had to go through that. I can't even imagine the pain that that caused you. Respect to you for hanging in there!

[once removed]

Have you (or anyone else here) witnessed someone with BPD really changing the way they view the world after extensive therapy? Whether it's through DBT or any other type of therapy, is it possible for someone to change the way they're wired and re-learn how to process things? Or do I have to accept that she'll always process things in a completely delusional way like that?

the short answer is yes. but its a complicated question.

BPD is a spectrum disorder, from high on it, to low on it. most of our loved ones, or exes, are low on that spectrum and wouldnt qualify for a diagnosis.

that, in and of itself, can be either a good or a bad thing. it can mean less chance for improvement, or more. its kind of heads or tails.

as i said, i have seen some of the absolute worst case scenarios here turned around. ive seen things all over the place...the relationship getting better, the partner with bpd traits getting better, or the member learning to better navigate and leading the relationship on a healthier trajectory. there is a success stories thread pinned at the top of this board, and it doesnt scratch the surface.

but it also, frankly, has very little bearing on you, her, or your unique relationship. if the statistics were something like 99/100 relationships improve, the question becomes why...and who took the initiative to move it to that category.

for the record, the vast majority of relationships in stage four fail, and are already far on the path to ending. some do make it. that, at this point, is the more important statistic, and question: are you prepared to do what it takes to be one of the few.

you will have to accept that a lot of your wifes personality is ingrained and unlikely to change. she is a highly sensitive person. a jealous person. a bossy person. a volatile person.

can that change?

therapy for someone with BPD traits is primarily about recognizing that one is triggered, and learning more constructive responses. it is the same concept that we teach here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

it is not about becoming a less highly sensitive person. im a highly sensitive person myself; a lot of us here are. its why i lean so hard on the lessons and tools here. does that have an impact on the difficult people i deal with in my life? absolutely.

you will also need to accept that not all of the relationship problems are solely hers, or about BPD. they are more about the particular conflict(s), the dynamics between the two of you, and what you each bring (have brought) to the relationship as individuals. they may involve values differences, incompatibilities, personality and conflict styles, a host of things. what BPD traits really mean mainly is that you just have a partner that is above average in difficulty when it comes to conflict, and the ways you respond may not be constructive. its the same hard lesson that the parents on the Son or Daughter board learn. its the same hard lesson that a lot of us on the Detaching board learn.

So if she doesn't make a significant change

it means accepting that you are going to have to be the one to make the significant change, and lead, if you want to see improvement. waiting, the status quo, isnt functional.

Can't believe I got myself into this situation.

that is the way to see it. take the lead in getting yourself out of it; not necessarily the relationship, but the way things are.

i have some idea of how hard a road that will be, either way, but it is doable.

I call her out when she treats me poorly and stand up for my daughter when my wife is too harsh with her.

you are going to want to avoid biting off more than you can chew, and picking some of the primary relationship problems, tackling them, nip them in the bud.

physical abuse is a big one. there is no relationship recovery so long as that occurs.

likewise, relationship recovery is impossible if you and the mother of your child are at odds, competing, over how you parent, and that can have a significant impact on your daughter. it can also breed resentment and distrust. and youre right to assume that it will almost certainly become a bigger problem if the two of you divorce.

thats one of the places i would start. can you give us some examples?

[juju2]

Hi All.

so my ex got into a series of relationships, that toxic scary one lasted 2 years. That was the worst one.
He was clueless, only recently acknowledged that 1st relationship had alcohol issues...he has never been able to share w me the cliff we were all put on...
that's just something i don't count on seeing.

There is a wealth of experience here, take what you like from this community.  Leave the rest.  There are many different ways to have this work.
My.message is work, work, work some more, on mindset. Fun, fun, fun at any and all juncture.
Short story: when my marriage was in trouble, 11 years in, we went to marriage counseling. One session. (ex refused to go more)
At that session, counselor drew pic. Divided paper into four spaces. What is necessary to make a marriage work.?

 He said I want you guys to tell me what is in each.   We guessed, sex. No.  Love. No!.
Money.  No.
We were silent.

He filled out 3:  respect. appreciation.   
And this one is an eye opener:  FUN.

The 4th one:          wait for it...

He said it's unique to each relationship...

Basically he said.      this can be done...

We didn't go back.

You are hearing a lot and you are learning.
Be gentle.  Listen.  Learn.  Find a way to have fun.  Feelings follow.   Feelings do not lead.

[juju2]

get myself clear.  To be in this. 
boundary work help.  That involves me getting clear.

Once I saw there was a problem (tip of iceberg moment) in my marriage.  Looking back, I had allowed myself to get mentally so far gone.  I would not have been able to see any improvement.  My mindset was seared...had no awareness that I was dealing with a seared mindset and what could I do about me.

I am 100 percent in control of me.

You have heard the wind and sails analogy.

[PeteWitsend]

...

Serious question - do you still love your current partner? I don't wish any ill-will on my wife, but I absolutely do not love her anymore. How do I stay in what's supposed to be a loving relationship with someone I don't love? Without even knowing it, my daughter is giving me so much strength every single day.

Hi alleyesonme, I read your story, and noticed a lot of similarities in my own.  Not everything of course, but a lot of the feelings and concerns you've expressed I went through as well.  I'm now divorced FWIW (married 5 1/2 years, then separated and divorced for about 1 1/2 years total now). 

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I will say I definitely no longer love my XW, and was pretty much checked out for the last year of our marriage.  She made it impossible to love her. 

Like you, I ignored a lot of red flags, for a lot of reasons, some of which were my own fault.  For example, I needed to grow and learn to maintain healthy boundaries and enforce them.  Others of which were, I suppose, dumb luck on her part that lead me to have more sympathy for her plight than I should have & accept her excuses for her negative behavior.

How do you let go of the bad stuff? I know I need to do that, and I've been trying to, but I'm struggling with that. I've been reading as much as I can, meditating and recently began seeing a therapist.
 

I still haven't let go of the bad stuff.  I don't dwell on it exactly; it doesn't control my behavior, it doesn't get me down.  I've been dating, and enjoying life and see my kids every Thursday and every other weekend (plus alternate holidays & extended time during the summer). 

But I will admit, I absolutely loathe my XW; this is a person that made years of my life miserable, who created conflict out of nothing and ruined what should've been otherwise happy times with young kids; who attacked my family and friends and tried to isolate me from them by making insane and unhinged accusations against many of them, and being insulting and cruel to them.  Throughout our marriage, we were financially secure and healthy, but constantly unhappy, as nothing was ever enough for her.  I wasn't showing enough love, we didn't travel enough, I was holding back her career (!), she needed her family here, my family hated her, etc. etc.

I think in the end, embrace your feelings and don't let other people get on your case for feeling the way you do, whatever it may be.  THEY haven't gone through what YOU did. 

At the same time, if resentment and anger toward your wife is clouding your judgment, then you definitely need to deal with it.  This is something you need to take time to understand, and it sounds like you are.  I also had to go through therapy for a couple months (while I was still married), in order to cope with the stress of my job combined with the stress of my home life, and put it all into perspective.

In the end, you need to decide what you need and want, and go get it; do not let sympathy for your likely-BPD wife cloud your judgment here.  She has no sympathy for you, and never will.

[PeteWitsend]

the other thing I need to share is I got divorced from a non bpd. Our kids were 9 and 4.
My T was very helpful. He seemed to encourage the divorce, it was what I wanted.

 Looking back, I had gone to a T. that did not have children.  The effect of the divorce on kids was totally missing in my sessions w T.

Long story short, divorce was devastating on my kids. Worse than being in the bad marriage...i can't go back and re write this.
All I know is, leaving, breaking up a marriage, w young kids involved, is truly devastating and those years--age 9 thru 21-- before things got better---granted teenage years are difficult to begin w.
My ex got involved w someone who abused drugs, alcohol. She would routinely drive my kids around.  They were exposed 50% of the time to harmful.

Those days were crazy. My ex became so unrecognizable, doing things that were harmful to my children.  Not anything I could take direct action on...
I would be remiss to leave this out of my story.
...

This is horrifying, and I'm sorry you & your kids went through it, but if your ex-spouse was putting your kids in danger, you should have absolutely been getting the courts and authorities involved and fighting for more custody, or sole custody. 

I found a good child psychologist and take my kids to see him regularly now in order to ensure there is a relationship there & identify any issues that may arise.

I knew my XW was unstable, and for years I feared what my kids would go through.  In the end, I weighed the potential harm of leaving against the harm caused by my kids seeing us fight and unhappy, and "normalizing" that, i.e. thinking it's okay to accept that sort of treatment from a spouse.

I also saw that, try as much as I might, I could not shield my kids from her behavior; she would attack me and pick fights in public, on trips, etc. in situations where it was not easy for me to leave the room, or avoid her. 

I had read, and have hope that by seeing me regularly, and seeing what normal, non-disordered behavior is like, they will, in the long run, be okay.  I have no doubt though that my bpdXW's behavior rubs off on them and affects them.  But it is what it is; I can't control that.  I can only be a good role model and influence on them when they are with me. 

[alleyesonme]

the short answer is yes. but its a complicated question.

BPD is a spectrum disorder, from high on it, to low on it. most of our loved ones, or exes, are low on that spectrum and wouldnt qualify for a diagnosis.

that, in and of itself, can be either a good or a bad thing. it can mean less chance for improvement, or more. its kind of heads or tails.

as i said, i have seen some of the absolute worst case scenarios here turned around. ive seen things all over the place...the relationship getting better, the partner with bpd traits getting better, or the member learning to better navigate and leading the relationship on a healthier trajectory. there is a success stories thread pinned at the top of this board, and it doesnt scratch the surface.

but it also, frankly, has very little bearing on you, her, or your unique relationship. if the statistics were something like 99/100 relationships improve, the question becomes why...and who took the initiative to move it to that category.

for the record, the vast majority of relationships in stage four fail, and are already far on the path to ending. some do make it. that, at this point, is the more important statistic, and question: are you prepared to do what it takes to be one of the few.

you will have to accept that a lot of your wifes personality is ingrained and unlikely to change. she is a highly sensitive person. a jealous person. a bossy person. a volatile person.

can that change?

therapy for someone with BPD traits is primarily about recognizing that one is triggered, and learning more constructive responses. it is the same concept that we teach here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

it is not about becoming a less highly sensitive person. im a highly sensitive person myself; a lot of us here are. its why i lean so hard on the lessons and tools here. does that have an impact on the difficult people i deal with in my life? absolutely.

you will also need to accept that not all of the relationship problems are solely hers, or about BPD. they are more about the particular conflict(s), the dynamics between the two of you, and what you each bring (have brought) to the relationship as individuals. they may involve values differences, incompatibilities, personality and conflict styles, a host of things. what BPD traits really mean mainly is that you just have a partner that is above average in difficulty when it comes to conflict, and the ways you respond may not be constructive. its the same hard lesson that the parents on the Son or Daughter board learn. its the same hard lesson that a lot of us on the Detaching board learn.

it means accepting that you are going to have to be the one to make the significant change, and lead, if you want to see improvement. waiting, the status quo, isnt functional.

that is the way to see it. take the lead in getting yourself out of it; not necessarily the relationship, but the way things are.

i have some idea of how hard a road that will be, either way, but it is doable.

you are going to want to avoid biting off more than you can chew, and picking some of the primary relationship problems, tackling them, nip them in the bud.

physical abuse is a big one. there is no relationship recovery so long as that occurs.

likewise, relationship recovery is impossible if you and the mother of your child are at odds, competing, over how you parent, and that can have a significant impact on your daughter. it can also breed resentment and distrust. and youre right to assume that it will almost certainly become a bigger problem if the two of you divorce.

thats one of the places i would start. can you give us some examples?

I really appreciate you, and everyone else in this thread, for chiming in, listening and trying to help. While things still aren't great, my wife and I are currently in the middle of the best 2-3 week stretch we've had in several years. I'm not naive enough to think that this will last forever, but I'm trying to enjoy the increased peacefulness while realizing that it may be a very long time before this happens again. I've been so focused on just enjoying this while it lasts that I haven't gotten around to posting here in a bit. Wasn't trying to leave anyone hanging at all.

I need to check out some of those success stories, and over time, I'm sure I'll be made aware of a lot more success stories via this forum. I have no idea if we can make it - the odds are probably against it at this point - but I'm giving it everything I've got because that's what my daughter deserves.

I'm being as proactive as I can in terms of seeing a therapist myself, mirroring (instead of projecting), trying to depersonalize the attacks, staying calm when the proverbial bullets are flying, trying to shield my daughter from as much of this as possible, and still treating my wife with respect. As everyone here knows, these situations are incredibly hard and complicated, and I know I have a lot more questions than answers.

You asked for examples - were you referring to examples of physical abuse or conflicts over parenting styles/preferences? As for the former, she's pushed me at least 20 times, slapped me hard once in the back of my head while she and my daughter were in the backseat while I was driving on the highway, elbowed me several times, and has thrown dangerous objects at my head from close range two different times.

In terms of parenting conflicts, I'd say the biggest one is that my wife yells at our daughter way too much IMO, and has been doing this for a long time. Our daughter is only 22 months old, so I think it's way too early (if there ever is an acceptable time) to respond that harshly to her behavior. For example, we were on a flight once and our daughter was on my lap. She was 13 months old at the time. My wife takes out some food that she knows my daughter likes to eat and starts eating it in front of her. When my daughter asks for it, my wife refuses to give her any, and that quickly escalates into my daughter crying loudly in the middle of the plane. My wife then screams at her, saying "YOU STOP IT RIGHT NOW!" I was mortified and disgusted.

My wife gets furious with our daughter at times when she wakes up in the middle of the night. Like a child, my wife has to get as much sleep as possible and doesn't understand that this is part of being a parent. My wife doesn't work at all, while I work incredibly long hours, so it's not sustainable for me to wake up with her every single time. I tried it for the first year of our daughter's life and wore myself to the bone.

Another example is that my daughter will sometimes flail her arms or legs when we're trying to get her dressed, change her diaper, put lotion on her, etc - in other words, she doesn't want us to do something that's necessary for us to do. Not a big deal in my mind - perfectly par for the course at that age. In the course of this flailing, if she happens to make contact with my wife, my wife will scream at her for hitting/kicking her. It clearly wasn't the intent of my daughter to hit/kick/hurt anyone - she's just trying to avoid the temporarily unpleasant task.

As soon as she yells at my daughter, I'm then caught between a rock and a hard place because if I don't say anything, then my daughter interprets it to mean that my wife is right in yelling at her. But if I do say something, it then escalates into a fight in front of my daughter. I've decided that the lesser of two evils is to calmly but firmly stand up for my daughter in those situations. Yes, it leads to fights, but it sends the message to my daughter that it isn't right for someone to talk to her like that and that I'll stand up for her against anybody. I'll give my wife credit to a certain degree here, as while she still isn't where she needs to be in this area, she has improved a bit.

There are a lot of layers to this, as the past 1-2 years have revealed to me that my mother-in-law has some serious issues as well. Every child she's raised (3 daughters, two older grandchildren and several nieces/nephews that she played a prominent role in raising) has serious anxiety issues at the very least, and in at least two cases, BPD. She is known for lashing out and/or snapping at people on a regular basis, and the whole family just accepts it as being ok to do.

By far her top priorities in raising a child are that the child's face is never messy in any way, the child's clothes are always clean and worn properly, the child never fusses about anything, the child is an obedient robot, and the child never, ever, ever makes a scene in public. On the other hand, who cares if the child eats healthy food, learns anything, is given something (or not given something) that increases her chances of getting cancer later in life, is capable of controlling her emotions, ever gets validated, ever learns how to communicate, etc?

My wife absolutely idolizes this woman, and they're extremely close, which is scary to me. On one hand, I now see how my wife developed into the person she is, so that helps me sympathize with her a bit more. On the other hand, it's hard to have much respect for my mother in law, and gives me even less hope that my wife will ever be willing or able to change.

My wife's sister and I are somewhat close - she's my favorite person in their family these days. As I mentioned above, she told me she was diagnosed with BPD several years ago, but has been getting regular DBT therapy ever since and has made a ton of progress. When she told my mother in law about the diagnosis, my mother in law refused to believe it, saying that that's a diagnosis for the craziest of crazy people and couldn't possibly be true. The rest of the family mocks my wife's sister for being the one person in the family with the guts to confront this issue and actually change.

[alleyesonme]

Hi All.

so my ex got into a series of relationships, that toxic scary one lasted 2 years. That was the worst one.
He was clueless, only recently acknowledged that 1st relationship had alcohol issues...he has never been able to share w me the cliff we were all put on...
that's just something i don't count on seeing.

There is a wealth of experience here, take what you like from this community.  Leave the rest.  There are many different ways to have this work.
My.message is work, work, work some more, on mindset. Fun, fun, fun at any and all juncture.
Short story: when my marriage was in trouble, 11 years in, we went to marriage counseling. One session. (ex refused to go more)
At that session, counselor drew pic. Divided paper into four spaces. What is necessary to make a marriage work.?

 He said I want you guys to tell me what is in each.   We guessed, sex. No.  Love. No!.
Money.  No.
We were silent.

He filled out 3:  respect. appreciation.   
And this one is an eye opener:  FUN.

The 4th one:          wait for it...

He said it's unique to each relationship...

Basically he said.      this can be done...

We didn't go back.

You are hearing a lot and you are learning.
Be gentle.  Listen.  Learn.  Find a way to have fun.  Feelings follow.   Feelings do not lead.

As always, I truly appreciate your insight. I can't imagine how hard that must have been to go through a divorce, which in itself is really hard, and then see your ex embark on such a destructive path that hurts you and your kids so significantly. I'm so glad to hear you're in a much better place now.

She's been a little nicer lately, so we've been able to have more fun, and I think that's slowly started to create some positive momentum for us. I know her too well to think that this is a permanent breakthrough, but at least it gives me a little more hope than I had a month ago.

[alleyesonme]

Hi alleyesonme, I read your story, and noticed a lot of similarities in my own.  Not everything of course, but a lot of the feelings and concerns you've expressed I went through as well.  I'm now divorced FWIW (married 5 1/2 years, then separated and divorced for about 1 1/2 years total now). 

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I will say I definitely no longer love my XW, and was pretty much checked out for the last year of our marriage.  She made it impossible to love her. 

Like you, I ignored a lot of red flags, for a lot of reasons, some of which were my own fault.  For example, I needed to grow and learn to maintain healthy boundaries and enforce them.  Others of which were, I suppose, dumb luck on her part that lead me to have more sympathy for her plight than I should have & accept her excuses for her negative behavior.

I still haven't let go of the bad stuff.  I don't dwell on it exactly; it doesn't control my behavior, it doesn't get me down.  I've been dating, and enjoying life and see my kids every Thursday and every other weekend (plus alternate holidays & extended time during the summer). 

But I will admit, I absolutely loathe my XW; this is a person that made years of my life miserable, who created conflict out of nothing and ruined what should've been otherwise happy times with young kids; who attacked my family and friends and tried to isolate me from them by making insane and unhinged accusations against many of them, and being insulting and cruel to them.  Throughout our marriage, we were financially secure and healthy, but constantly unhappy, as nothing was ever enough for her.  I wasn't showing enough love, we didn't travel enough, I was holding back her career (!), she needed her family here, my family hated her, etc. etc.

I think in the end, embrace your feelings and don't let other people get on your case for feeling the way you do, whatever it may be.  THEY haven't gone through what YOU did. 

At the same time, if resentment and anger toward your wife is clouding your judgment, then you definitely need to deal with it.  This is something you need to take time to understand, and it sounds like you are.  I also had to go through therapy for a couple months (while I was still married), in order to cope with the stress of my job combined with the stress of my home life, and put it all into perspective.

In the end, you need to decide what you need and want, and go get it; do not let sympathy for your likely-BPD wife cloud your judgment here.  She has no sympathy for you, and never will.

Thanks for sharing - we definitely do have a lot in common. I'm so glad to hear that you're in a much better place now. That balance you referred to (stay or go and the reasons for each) weighs on my mind all day, every day. In the end, what prompted you to leave? And given her mental illness, did you try to get full custody of your kids? At least in our state, I've been informed my attorneys that the courts are so "pro-mom" that it'd be a waste of time to attempt to get full custody. Curious to hear how it played out in your situation/state.

Great point about not letting other people get on my case for feeling this way. They have no clue what it's like to go through this. That's one reason I'm so grateful for this forum and how so many people here truly try to listen and help. I know everyone's story is a little different, but there are also a ton of similarities, and you guys all get it.

You're absolutely right that she doesn't have any sympathy for me. Looking into the future, if I somehow did get granted full custody of our daughter (and that may be a longshot), it's hard to not feel some sympathy for my wife in the sense that I can imagine how devastating it would be to lose (for the most part) my daughter, and I wouldn't want anyone to experience that pain. It would also hurt my daughter significantly at least in the short term, as she does love her mom a lot. On the other hand, if that's what's truly in my daughter's best longterm interests, then I may need to do it anyway. Such a tough decision to make.

[juju2]

Hi All

So looking back over the entire time since I met him, now it's 13 years, he has gotten much, much better.
The bad times, horrible times without much light, are largely gone.
What has made the difference.
Him growing.
Me learning, growing.
Time.
Shared values.
Me noticing what WORKS FOR US.
noticing minute positive changes, like a scientist would, is key.

So when I read of success stories, here, continued success, it's a positive upward trend.