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Author Topic: Finally Decided To Give Up  (Read 551 times)
Dungahass
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« on: March 22, 2020, 10:06:00 AM »

Not sure what I'm trying to get out of this post other than maybe to vent. There aren't any magic words to make me feel better right now, but I love the support this community provides. I'm not in a good place this morning.

I had posted on the "Bettering" board so far. Was in a long distance relationship with my exwPBD, we broke up a year ago, had multiple push/pull and wanting to get back together cycles since then before the final discard a couple months ago. I saw her last in December, lots of bad, rejection, but also just enough things to give me hope of reconciliation. She always had a knack for leaving the door slightly cracked open even as she told me she's not interested.

I bought a wedding ring, found a good job in her city, and wanted to present her with this info since one of her gripes with me was the distance, and her saying I was not serious about her. But lately I felt something was off, different, and I suspected she had started seeing someone new.

I had a convo with her two days ago, told her how I felt about her, about the job, that I'd be moving there to be with her, asked her if she's interested. She confirmed my suspicions about seeing someone new, and used that as a reason why she's not interested, as well as rehashing old issues as proof we're not compatible. Yet also said enough to leave me hooked for the future. I didn't plead, just told her how I felt, and that now I need to move on for my own mental health, and asked her to give me space. I told her I'd always be there for her, if she needed to talk.

I'm absolutely devastated right now. We haven't been in a relationship in over a year, and to be honest I haven't gotten her old self much if at all since the break-up. Just promises, some words of love, some sex. Yet, I feel like I just lost her now. I feel like this time, its done for good. I closed the door because I felt this, not because I wanted to. Last year, after the breakup, I was convinced we'd still end up together, and after a while, we almost did. This time, I think its done and dead, she's discarded me for good. It hurts really bad.

A few short months ago, she was all in. Then she painted me black. Still, after that, she introduced me to her family and friends for the first time, told me she loved me, had sex with me, and showed other signs she still wants to be with me. All that in between some bad emotional abuse and strong pushbacks too.

Even in my hurt, I miss her so much. My logical side says she's terrible for me, yet I secretly wish she would break my ask for space and reach out to me. I also imagine her with my replacement, and it hurts like hell. She seems to be into him, unlike the other ones she's dated after me. I was so hopeful my job in her city would be enough for her to give us a chance, and now that rug has been swept from under my feet. I feel completely discarded, and this time she seems like she doesn't care about any of my feelings at all. My friends tell me she'll contact me again one day, and that I should be careful. I don't think that will happen this time. My T agrees with my prediction that she won't. That REALLY sucks.

Thanks for listening.
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2020, 05:11:33 AM »

Detaching is, ultimately, about giving up hope.

its the hardest thing that any of us have to do. and we all feel your pain, profoundly. it took me some months, and what i was already going through turned very dark when i did.

theres not really anything either way to say she wont reach out to you again. when a relationship ends badly, most of the time, one or both parties will.

there is hope. i promise you that either way, you will get through this. and we will be with you every step of the way.

but it ultimately boils down to the direction you want to go in. are you ready, really ready, to give up the hope?
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Dungahass
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2020, 08:14:24 AM »

Hi Once Removed,

Thank you for this and your other posts in my previous threads. One you made about "leaning into your bad feelings" last month actually helped me a great deal in picking myself up from the ground. I am eternally grateful. Know that you have made a difference in this stranger's life.

In some ways, I am ready to give up hope. My sadness and yearning say otherwise, but I have also become a shell of a human for over a year, possibly even longer since I have met her. There is a notion of necessity which pushed me to have the conversation with her, and ask her to give me space. My mental health has suffered a lot, and I have put my life on hold for an incredible amount of time. And it hasn't been such a great life in that time. I had already known the answer she gave me for a few days before I talked with her, and once that reality set in, I realized there is very, very, very little chance she would come back. That's when I knew I can't stay in this awful place for much longer. Initially, I told her I would have a job which would bring me to her city, to gauge her reaction without bringing up the relationship. I told her I wanted to see her when I'm there for the final interview. For two weeks, she didn't freak out, and she didn't tell me about the person she's seeing, or that she's not interested. She would have let me go there, knowing full well that I didn't pick a job in her city randomly, leaving my friends and family behind. That gave me hope, even though it was foolish in hindsight. Selfish and careless on her part, but my choices are my own, I should have spoken to her about us earlier.

There has always been a voice in my head, call it my gut, telling me this relationship would destroy me on the inside. Even in the best times, there seemed to be a large disregard for my feelings, wants and needs. There are lots of things she had shown to me during the last few months, even when she was chasing me, that were signs I had lost my voice in the dynamic. I had no place to speak or be heard, and was sharply criticized for saying what I need if we were to rekindle. Even when she was saying "I'm all in", she was calling me selfish. I think now that no matter what, she would have found reasons to leave me or call it off. She's to this day bringing up arguments from two years ago as proof of incompatibility, and how they are red flags about me. These are arguments that happened even before she started chasing me again, despite all my reassurances that I had learned from past mistakes. Made no sense to me, other than to help me realize she would probably find lots of reasons to duck, hide, or leave as soon as any conflict would arise. She was constantly looking for the smoking gun that would prove how awful I am, and my flaws easily became that smoking gun, overriding anything good about me, about us. This, I've felt, is the biggest reason to give up hope.

So, if I'm still secretly hoping that she would contact me today, does it mean I'm truly ready to move on? I don't know. What did your readiness look like, when you did take that step of giving up hope? In the early stage, when its fresh, I can't imagine that its a feeling, but rather an action, like blocking the person or going NC. I have not blocked her, and the internet full of angry/mistrusting/experienced BPD relationship survivors tells me to block and delete. I have not done it, and even told her I'll always be there for her.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 08:19:38 AM by Dungahass » Logged
Lucky Jim
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2020, 10:33:22 AM »

Hey Dungahass, I'm sorry for your pain.  The goal of detaching, in my view, is indifference.  You're not there yet, which is OK.  One thing you might want to explore is why you got into a r/s with a pwBPD in the first place.  Hint: usually it has something to do with one's FOO or other childhood trauma.  Does that ring a bell?

Leaving a pwBPD can be a gut-wrenching experience, yet getting to the other side is what leads to greater happiness, in my experience.  At some point, I predict, you will be grateful to have moved on.  In the meantime, it's hard, I know.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2020, 04:20:17 AM »

you do sound different, as though something has changed. it sounds a lot like grief. thats a scary step. it often triggers hesitancy or backtracking, or at least it did for me.

youve examined things, and dont see a lot of "way up". if shes bringing up issues from two years ago, its a sign, and its probably true for both of you, that there is long standing resentment that is hard to recover from.

Excerpt
What did your readiness look like, when you did take that step of giving up hope? In the early stage, when its fresh, I can't imagine that its a feeling, but rather an action, like blocking the person or going NC. I have not blocked her, and the internet full of angry/mistrusting/experienced BPD relationship survivors tells me to block and delete. I have not done it, and even told her I'll always be there for her.

i held onto hope for a few months. my ex jumped in a new relationship that i expected to crash and burn (it didnt...while things i heard sounded horrendous, they lasted longer than i did).

she had a number of my belongings, a couple of them things that i really, really wanted back. so i spent those few months trying to get them. it was never going to happen. people here tried to tell me that, i, i dont think unreasonably, thought i was making progress, but i wasnt.

she was also getting into the email attached to my facebook, and reading messages people were sending to me. in a perverse sort of way, thats part of what was giving me hope.

so after a few months i sent our last email about exchanging belongings, she said shed get back to me, and after a couple of weeks when she didnt, i finally changed my password. that was our last real connection, as far as i was concerned. and when i did it, i went from an anxious basket case, to something a little darker, with more finality, like a death.

i held onto hope because i was afraid of the pain of letting go. i wasnt ready to go there until i was, and thats okay. holding onto hope quite often looks like the Bargaining stage of grief.

Excerpt
So, if I'm still secretly hoping that she would contact me today, does it mean I'm truly ready to move on?

until i reached that point, i had fantasies that looked like either far fetched reunions where she had healed and sought me out even years down the road, or where she begged for me back and i rejected her.

the lessons on this board have a saying : "attachment leads to suffering. detachment leads to freedom". i reached the point, slowly, where i wanted that freedom. where i knew the only way out of my pain was through it.
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Dungahass
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2020, 09:04:07 AM »

The goal of detaching, in my view, is indifference.  You're not there yet, which is OK.  One thing you might want to explore is why you got into a r/s with a pwBPD in the first place.  Hint: usually it has something to do with one's FOO or other childhood trauma.  Does that ring a bell?
Thanks, Lucky Jim. I have often tried to figure this out. I have never tried to save a relationship which has caused me so much grief, one in which I was emotionally abused countless times. I have left longer relationships for far less transgressions in the past. I've always just told myself that I love her that much, which is true, but maybe there is something more at play here. Dependency issues is something I'm looking at right now. I come from a childhood full of physical abuse from a parent.

Once Removed, even though I am grieving her like I have just now lost her for good, in some ways I am where you were at:

i went from an anxious basket case, to something a little darker, with more finality, like a death.

i held onto hope because i was afraid of the pain of letting go. i wasnt ready to go there until i was, and thats okay. holding onto hope quite often looks like the Bargaining stage of grief.
I have been that anxious basket case for many many months now, and now it really does feel like I am dealing with a death. It has only been 4 days, but I'm still having fantasies of her reaching out to me, sending me a "I miss you" text, like she has in the past when things were bad/over. I feel like this is highly unlikely this time around, and given my fantasy, in trying to come to terms with all that, I'm finding myself incredibly broken inside.  And I'm also expecting, hoping, that this new person she's dating fizzles out. My gut tells me this one won't end so quickly, and I'm scared of finding myself in a place, weeks or months down the road still hoping for that and finding out they're in a steady relationship.

I'll be honest, I have cracked and checked her online status a few times to see how late/often she talks to him, as a gauge of how well its going. Last night, I saw that she hadn't been online in over 24 hours, which initially made me feel good at the thought of "how good of a relationship can this new one be if they can go a whole day without texting?". That quickly turned into "maybe they've spent that 24 hours together in each other's arms". The more I check, the more I want to check again. I'm finding it difficult to resist, still looking for an answer to fuel my hope an fantasy. Unhealthy, I know, its just really hard.

Resentment, sure, there was a lot of it between us. But I think her bringing up issues from two years ago was less about that resentment and more about rationalizing leaving me or other bad feelings she has about me. Those old issues are nonsense and never materialized, they were just arguments she would use to qualify me as controlling while simultaneously admitting to being controlling herself. She was always good at avoiding, ducking and hiding during conflict, and then back-reasoning her actions and decisions when she would do something to hurt or break the relationship, with new standards of why I'm awful and how I forced her to leave or do hurtful things. She has admitted to often looking for a reason to end things, looking for signs of trouble. I have done things to harm the relationship, for sure, we both have, but the way she rationalized her trepidation about me/us never made sense to me. So much good, with some bad, which we could have fixed. And I proposed the ultimate solution, to move to be with her, and it wasn't enough. She was "all in" back in November, until I told her she needs to sort her things out and that I need a bit of space. She flipped, and a couple days later, I changed my mind, was all in, and somehow she wasn't all-in anymore, no matter what.

I saw her in December, I tried so hard to show her my devotion, we had some good times, I could see the love in her for me, but I could also see the mistrust and hurtful pushback, and just a couple discussions or comments with me were enough for her to decide we are terrible together. That will continue to haunt me, as I look back in regret, wishing I had taken her up on the offer when she was "all in" a few short months ago. That part is killing me right now, even though I know she could/would have changed her mind at the slightest disappointment. That's also where the fantasy comes from, thinking (probably foolishly) that if she felt that way about me not even that long ago, she would feel that way again. Deep down, I know it won't happen this time.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2020, 10:52:08 AM »

Excerpt
I come from a childhood full of physical abuse from a parent.

Hey Dungahass, Well, there it is.  You figured it out.  I appreciate your honesty, which gives you a starting point.  There is usually something familiar about a BPD r/s that we recognize, perhaps on a subconscious level, which is also what makes a BPD r/s so hard to leave.  Yet once you recognize the pattern, you can make healthier choices that lead to greater happiness.

Abuse is unacceptable.  Now that you are an adult, you don't need to put up with it.  Time to move on, my friend.

LJ
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2020, 10:36:36 PM »

I don't know your situation other than a brief read right now, but in my experience...
*I could not let go until something clicked over in my head.  My friends gently encouraged me to let go/detach before that, but until it clicked, it wasn't going to happen.  Once it clicked, I was done, things got easier.  Don't scold yourself for feeling the way you do, you seem so upset with yourself... maybe treat yourself like you would treat a best friend or a child.  Would you be this upset at them?  Write down what you would say to your best friend as gently as possible, and then look and ask if you're giving yourself the same kindness.
*So in my case it wasn't a decision, it was just a breaking point or "click."  When you reach that point you'll know, and you will likely also cut off avenues of being able to have contact or knowledge of them...  because you just won't care anymore.  Some people on the internet say you "never" get over BPDs... that's simply not true and it's a very doomsday, pessimistic thing to put out there.  My exBPD, he was the "love of my life."  Yes he was... for a while Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).  But I lost trust in him.  And then I lost RESPECT for him - from that point, there was no more wrestling with it.  I never lost respect for my ex husband, we have a supportive, kind, fun yet infrequent thing.  We all have choices - and regardless of how you feel right now, in this moment, I'd say your future looks pretty bright.  Give yourself patience, friend.
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2020, 12:26:43 AM »

Hey Dungahass, Well, there it is.  You figured it out.  I appreciate your honesty, which gives you a starting point.  There is usually something familiar about a BPD r/s that we recognize, perhaps on a subconscious level, which is also what makes a BPD r/s so hard to leave.  Yet once you recognize the pattern, you can make healthier choices that lead to greater happiness.

Abuse is unacceptable.  Now that you are an adult, you don't need to put up with it.  Time to move on, my friend.

LJ
You're probably right, LJ. I'm still amazed/perplexed over how I keep/kept yearning for a relationship that made me feel THAT bad, so many times, and for so long. I have not gotten my needs met for what it seems like forever, even when she was chasing me and should in theory have been on her best behavior. No relationship has made me feel this broken before. No person has treated me in some of the ways she has treated me. In that time, I've spent probably 90% of my time thinking about her, and how to get her back on my side. I have spent thousands of dollars on therapy, turned down other women and high paying jobs, lost an appetite for life, for friends, lost sleep, and generally became a shell of a person. That's been on-going for over a year. I just don't recognize myself, and my circle of people don't either.

Whit Huntington, thank you! That is actually a lot more reassuring to hear than you realize. I'm actually legit concerned that it will take me a long, long time to get over this, and that even when I do, I will come out alive but limping. And then reading people saying that its been their experience, or that they never got over if fully, makes me wonder if there is some truth to it. Like I said above, the fact that I'm still feeling the way I do even after not having seen the "old her" from the good days of the relationship, like 20 months ago, has me believing I have some deep attachment scars which will take a while to heal. And I usually need at least a year to get over a long term relationship ending, so I wonder how long this breakup will take. Like you said, its a "click" I'm hoping will come, and right now nothing anyone says about moving on is registering.
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Dungahass
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2020, 12:39:17 AM »

Today was a difficult day for me. I was placed on a 5 week furlough by my employer because of the mess around the world. On top of it, I briefly continued some of the unhealthy online snooping behavior over my ex. I did it because I was looking for any reason to think that the new dating thing she has going on is not that strong. It might be , it might not be, but in the end it was incredibly upsetting when I would snoop. I stopped doing it, but by then my anxiety had peaked, during what was already a hard day.

Today I also returned the engagement ring I had bought a couple months ago for her. It was a bittersweet moment, and I wasn't too triggered into sadness to be honest. I think part of it is because I spent several hours on the phone with some incredibly supportive friends of mine who listened to me list some of the ways my ex has treated and discarded me over the last year. Hearing their disbelief, their affirmation that it was abusive, that I didn't deserve those things even with my own flaws, was not only reassuring and calming, but it also helped re-center my mind into something more realistic. That will likely continue to evolve from bad to good to bad over the next few months.
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2020, 04:38:48 AM »

In my experience, talking about to someone who is willing to hear and respond is extremely relieving. It takes you out of your own mental loops and confirms that there was really something very off indeed.
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2020, 08:27:21 AM »

I'm sorry to hear about the furlough, that may make things tougher, so be ready and most importantly, ready to forgive yourself if you need.

But I mean in one day... you made HUGE progress!  You returned the ring, in spite of difficult feelings about it?  AND you reached out to friends for support?  Yeah... I'm not too worried about you... Smiling (click to insert in post)  You're showing all the signs of moving that direction, you just need to give yourself the time.  It won't come faster than it comes, and who knows what that path will look like.  Whatever it looks like, as long as you can say "I'm proud of my behavior," you're probably on the right path. 

If you can, set up daily or regular FaceTimes with friends, and look for ways to help/volunteer (all while social distancing/keeping sanitary) during this time.  Do meditations and maybe READ about Narcissistic Abuse (Shahida Arabi's book Power is very empowering, it'll make you mad mad at first, which brings you closer to disconnecting).  And then shut it all off and do things for fun each day...  also, what helps me, keeping a list or evidence of my exBPD's terrible treatment of me towards the end.  Like, DIRECT proof of the meanness and how bad it made you feel.  I "relapsed" 3 days ago seeing a loving video by accident, cried for 2 straight days, then smartly grabbed my phone and re-read all the avoidant, stonewalling texts from the last 2 months, and I'm cured of my tears now.  If these things don't work we can brainstorm more, we're all here for you.
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2020, 10:12:44 AM »

Excerpt
I have spent thousands of dollars on therapy, turned down other women and high paying jobs, lost an appetite for life, for friends, lost sleep, and generally became a shell of a person. That's been on-going for over a year. I just don't recognize myself, and my circle of people don't either.

Hey Dungahass, You nailed it!  I lost myself, too, in my marriage to a pwBPD.  It got so bad that two kind friends and a family member conducted an intervention on me.  That's a story for another day, but it indicates how estranged I was from myself, which was not fun.  It also shows how devastating BPD can be on the spouse/SO.  My suggestion: get back to being yourself.  Return the focus to you and your needs.  Strive to be authentic.  Listen to your gut feelings.  Operate from your core.  You get the idea!

LJ
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2020, 04:03:07 AM »

Excerpt
I'll be honest, I have cracked and checked her online status a few times to see how late/often she talks to him, as a gauge of how well its going. Last night, I saw that she hadn't been online in over 24 hours, which initially made me feel good at the thought of "how good of a relationship can this new one be if they can go a whole day without texting?". That quickly turned into "maybe they've spent that 24 hours together in each other's arms". The more I check, the more I want to check again. I'm finding it difficult to resist, still looking for an answer to fuel my hope an fantasy. Unhealthy, I know, its just really hard.

it is hard. but its like any bad habit, really. you have to make a real commitment to stop, and stop.

i did it a lot. i could see something as innocuous as a new profile picture (thats about all i could see) and flip out for hours on end. i just reached a point, and it took some time and effort, that i said im just not going to do that to myself anymore. and if it helped, i told myself "ill do that some day down the road. now is not a good time".

Excerpt
Those old issues are nonsense and never materialized,

the way she rationalized her trepidation about me/us never made sense to me.

She was "all in" back in November, until I told her she needs to sort her things out and that I need a bit of space. She flipped, and a couple days later, I changed my mind, was all in, and somehow she wasn't all-in anymore, no matter what.

this will make a lot more sense when youre further down the road, but one of the paradoxes of detaching is that the more you are able to see and understand your exes perspective (not the same as agreeing with it), the more detached you are.

in the lead up (months, weeks, sometimes years) to a breakup, neither party is on the same page. they think they can read the other, but theres a huge disconnect.

Excerpt
I'm actually legit concerned that it will take me a long, long time to get over this, and that even when I do, I will come out alive but limping. And then reading people saying that its been their experience, or that they never got over if fully,

it took me a long, long time to get over it completely. and for so long, i thought i never would. having said that, my path for healing is much clearer now than it was at the time, and i can see now what i couldnt then.

there is a risk of not getting over it fully and carrying the baggage into the next relationship. but not if you make a real commitment to your healing and becoming a better, stronger version of yourself.

today, what was one of the two hardest things in my life is now such ancient history. i cant feel pain over the loss if i tried. but its not just that i got over the loss. i gained a freedom and a power i never had.

all of that is very possible. you just have to invest in your recovery and take it by the horns.
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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2020, 11:09:24 AM »

daze507, Whit Huntington, Lucky Jim, once removed,

Thank you all for your kind and supportive replies. Sorry for not getting back to this thread earlier, I probably should have posted more since I am still in a huge amount of pain.

In some ways, I've continued to feel worse each day. I just can't stop thinking about her, literally all day on most days. The thoughts cover anything you can imagine, from the good times, to the fights, to regrets I have, the doubts I have about myself and what I did to harm the relationship and her blaming me for its failure, the ways I was mistreated, feeling sorry for myself, anger, etc. I even sometimes doubt she has BPD and blame myself for things she attributed to me, and it takes a lot of mental effort to come back down from that ledge.

She called me last week. What a complete shock. It didn't take that long for her to break the need for space I asked her. Just 2.5 weeks. She said it was to see how I'm doing. We spoke for an hour and talked about how the lockdown is affecting us. In a way, it was satisfying. She hadn't shown much desire for my life for a few months before, even when we were talking somewhat regularly, and all of a sudden she's being "caring" enough to call? She was more "attentive" in this convo than at most times during the last 4 months. I think something drove her to call me, something built up inside her, maybe for a brief moment, or maybe for days before. I know her better now. I actually felt strong for 3 days after that, didn't cry at all. It was nice to think (fantasize) that she still thought about me, and that maybe she felt bad about things, that she missed me a little. It was relieving.

After 3 days however, the feeling of relief gradually subsided. I also continued some of my checking online habits: I saw that she had been online Friday evening (almost certainly talking to her new guy) after not showing any activity for a week. The previous lack of activity had made me believe the new guy was out of the picture or that it couldn't be going THAT well, so seeing her online again tore me back down. That same night, I also saw a new picture of her on Instagram, and the one-two punch was a nice catalyst for me spiraling back down. Today, I cracked again for the first time in days, and saw her online late last night and I was filled with anxiety and despair. Why do I do this to myself? It's like I check and check and check, get relief when I see no activity, and then when there is some activity, it just brings me back down.
 
I'm obviously still very much attached to her, in my mind. I don't have real hope that it would work or that she would go back to the way she was with me 1-2 years ago. But its like I have some hope that she'll reach out to me again, and she'll miss me, than she'll remember who I am, and her feelings for me. I know some of those things will happen, at some point in the future, but that's not enough to calm down my anxiety and sadness. My T says I'm having trouble letting go, and that I'm focusing on her in my mind all day because even that's better than letting her go completely. I'm not sure, but it does sound right. It all still feels unreal, and letting go of that dream is very hard. I also miss her 5yr old daughter like crazy. Its been an aspect of this whole thing on its own, letting go of the little one.
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2020, 11:25:40 AM »

I'm not even sure how I could be THIS down, in pieces. It takes very little to make me cry, and flashes of her come to me all the time. I cry because I miss the old times, because I miss her daughter, because I feel sorry for myself, because I have regrets. I don't try to contain the crying, because I think it's better to lean into it (thanks Once Removed), but its more intense crying than anything I've ever experienced before in my 38 years on the planet. The worst part of the sadness is, she hasn't been a consistently good and supportive partner or friend in over A YEAR. For those reading who don't know the background, we broke up a year ago, and most of the time since then was me trying to get her back (she made one attempt too). For a lot of that time, she has not been really great to me, often even as a friend. Even when she was chasing me, my feelings didn't matter so much. So I haven't really seen the person I fell in love with in over a year, and instead have seen really awful and hurtful, abusive sides of her. Yet I still long for the old days which I haven't see in forever? I don't understand. I have all of the information I need, and all of the logic/rational data to be able to handle this better, and yet I can't integrate it all with my feelings of sadness.

This is easily the hardest thing I have ever been through.
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« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2020, 01:34:01 PM »

Hey Dungahass, It seems you remain a captive in the Cave of the BPD Minotaur.  In Greek mythology, Theseus emerges from the Labyrinth by following the thread that he unspooled on his way in.  You may want to consider, in similar fashion, how you can reconnect with your own thread, in order to get beyond all the pain and sadness.  How to find the thread?  Here's what I previously wrote:

Excerpt
Get back to being yourself.  Return the focus to you and your needs.  Strive to be authentic.  Listen to your gut feelings.  Operate from your core.  You get the idea!

It might help to explore the wound from your childhood.  You wrote:

Excerpt
I have often tried to figure this out. I have never tried to save a relationship which has caused me so much grief, one in which I was emotionally abused countless times. I have left longer relationships for far less transgressions in the past. I've always just told myself that I love her that much, which is true, but maybe there is something more at play here. Dependency issues is something I'm looking at right now. I come from a childhood full of physical abuse from a parent.

Abuse is unacceptable, my friend.  You no longer need to subject yourself to this pattern.  It's time to find a new path.

LJ








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« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2020, 01:36:36 PM »

P.S.  A lot of us Nons, including me, have had to learn about boundaries.  See Tools, above.  Now is a good time for you to set some boundaries.

LJ
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« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2020, 09:06:06 PM »

I come from a childhood full of physical abuse from a parent.

I showed up here on the Detaching board. I was in a very bad way. I had come out of a relationship with a very emotionally abusive woman, and we have a child together. It got very bad at the end.

My best friend pretty much rescued me, and I lived with him for a while until I was back on my feet.

I put myself through therapy and learned so much about how my childhood has dictated my present life. Once we realize how being raised and set loose can affect us, it’s a much different thing to look at.

I’d like to invite you to the PSI (parent, sibling, in-law) board to do some reading and possibly interact when you’re ready.
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2020, 04:24:00 AM »

Excerpt
It's like I check and check and check, get relief when I see no activity, and then when there is some activity, it just brings me back down.
...
My T says I'm having trouble letting go, and that I'm focusing on her in my mind all day because even that's better than letting her go completely

i think your T is dead on. at least, that was the case for me. thats what online checking and ruminating were about.

but the thing is, you dont have to make this huge mental leap all at once. you really dont. not checking on her doesnt have to mean youll never hear from her again. it doesnt have to mean you wont reconcile. it doesnt have to mean you completely let go. it really doesnt. hell, it doesnt mean you can never look again.

it just means you say that youve had enough torture and wont subject yourself to it. it just means you let go of what you cant control, and what you dont have enough knowledge to really determine.

take that step. you will be surprised what happens when you do.
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2020, 05:44:25 PM »

Thanks all.

@Lucky Jim, I've been doing so much reading recently trying to make sense of why I'm feeling quite like this. I've looked into dependency, co-dependency, childhood trauma, and many other things. At this point I'm unsure of pretty much everything. I even cycle back and forth between accepting using the term "emotional abuse". Others around me have used it more after hearing my story, yet I struggle to use the term to explain why I'm still longing for something that is so far in the past and which included lots of pain and sorrow. I blame myself a lot for how things went. Her voice is still in my head so clearly, pointing to how I was causing her grief, pushing her away, being too needy, selfish, uncaring, demanding, controlling. When she would push me away, or discard me, or act out against me, there was always a reason she gave for it that started with me. And in most of it, there was always at least some truth. My friends and T remind me that in a lot of those situations, my needs weren't being met either, and that's why I was asking for reassurances and being needy/nervous/anxious. I think there is still a lot of shame and guilt present in me.

@once removed. There is something extra hurtful to know she's online on whatsapp chatting with the new guy. She had used that app exclusively with me for over 2 years (she's more of a FB messenger girl), and her profile pic is almost like a symbol of the last two years for me,  I've spend literally hundreds of hours staring at it as we talked. And so the thought of her profile picture being seen by someone new somehow makes things harder for me. I know it sounds ridiculous, what difference does it make which app she's using with the new guy, right? There is just a such strong mental association there, and just seeing it on my phone now causes waves of sadness and anxiety.

Excerpt
it just means you say that youve had enough torture and wont subject yourself to it. it just means you let go of what you cant control, and what you dont have enough knowledge to really determine.
Thanks for this helpful bit. I know that being online on whatsapp means she's talking to the guy. I don't know much else, and I have no control over it. I'm trying hard to repeat to myself to accept that there IS a new guy. I've stayed away from checking today. All it does is fuel my thoughts, one way or another. I usually end up either imagining that she is thinking about me in some ways and that its not working out with the new guy (no activity), or that she's mostly forgotten about me and has fully moved on. Both, or neither of those things could be true, based on the extremely limited information I have.

@JNChell, I hadn't considered the PSI boards before. Thank you, I'll check it out.
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« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2020, 11:11:53 AM »

Excerpt
I blame myself a lot for how things went. Her voice is still in my head so clearly, pointing to how I was causing her grief, pushing her away, being too needy, selfish, uncaring, demanding, controlling. When she would push me away, or discard me, or act out against me, there was always a reason she gave for it that started with me.

Hey Dungahass, Right, it's always the Non's fault, according to the pwBPD.  Blaming the Non gets it off their plate and onto yours.  Your task is to decline to take it on.  I have a saying: "Poison is harmless if you don't ingest it."  In other words, don't internalize the blame.  Got it?

LJ
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2020, 03:18:34 AM »

I can only advise to block her on every social ASAP (and yes you can do it) because if you carry on like that, it will drive you insane, literally.
Also, do not rationalize what a BPD told you. It's the last thing to do, I did it a lot and I now realize my mistake.
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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2020, 04:43:49 AM »

@once removed. There is something extra hurtful to know she's online on whatsapp chatting with the new guy. She had used that app exclusively with me for over 2 years (she's more of a FB messenger girl), and her profile pic is almost like a symbol of the last two years for me,  I've spend literally hundreds of hours staring at it as we talked. And so the thought of her profile picture being seen by someone new somehow makes things harder for me. I know it sounds ridiculous, what difference does it make which app she's using with the new guy, right? There is just a such strong mental association there, and just seeing it on my phone now causes waves of sadness and anxiety.
Thanks for this helpful bit. I know that being online on whatsapp means she's talking to the guy. I don't know much else, and I have no control over it. I'm trying hard to repeat to myself to accept that there IS a new guy. I've stayed away from checking today. All it does is fuel my thoughts, one way or another. I usually end up either imagining that she is thinking about me in some ways and that its not working out with the new guy (no activity), or that she's mostly forgotten about me and has fully moved on. Both, or neither of those things could be true, based on the extremely limited information I have.

i get it, i really do.

i remember i sent a final text to my ex, and i must have checked hundreds of times in a matter of hours, waiting for a response. that was in addition to the weird phase where we were still facebook friends before we broke up, and i was checking, or not checking but asking my friends for specifics, or even long after we broke up, long after AIM had died, but i had serious anxiety thinking about the prospect of logging into AIM in case she was on.

associations can be crazy strong.

to break them, you have to want it. you just have to mentally make that decision.

im not a huge believer, myself, in the idea that no contact, or no checking is what will heal you. it wont heal the wounds that are plauging you right now.

i am a huge believer in, as one is ready, proactively taking steps to detach from the wounds. these things, what you describe, the mental back and forth, it all keeps you attached to the wounds. it keeps you mentally "in it". and in my experience, you dont really reach a point of no longer wanting that, until you do. so one takes steps, rather than rip off the bandaid. we dont all grieve all at once.

Excerpt
Her voice is still in my head so clearly, pointing to how I was causing her grief, pushing her away, being too needy, selfish, uncaring, demanding, controlling. When she would push me away, or discard me, or act out against me, there was always a reason she gave for it that started with me. And in most of it, there was always at least some truth. My friends and T remind me that in a lot of those situations, my needs weren't being met either, and that's why I was asking for reassurances and being needy/nervous/anxious. I think there is still a lot of shame and guilt present in me.

in my experience, these things are easier to process in the latter stages of detaching. when things are raw, when your self esteem is crashing, theres a fine line between "the lessons i want to learn" and "its all my fault". it gets easier to sort out what is what, it really does, but that tends to come down the line, as a result of detaching.
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2020, 01:03:06 PM »

Excerpt
i remember i sent a final text to my ex, and i must have checked hundreds of times in a matter of hours, waiting for a response.

I've done this countless times with this woman, its like I want to keep torturing myself. Feel the anxiety rush over my body and then go back for more.

I actually caved again today, checked and saw what I didn't like, what I kind of already knew I'd see. It had been 5 days so I rationalized it as a "test", but I think deep down it was just a moment of weakness, after wondering about it as I resisted the urge to check during those 5 days. Weird, in the moment, it obviously made me anxious and sad, but not horrible. At least not as horrible as I felt a couple hours later, when the real deal struck: I suddenly remembered what I had checked and seen in the morning, and it tore me to a million pieces, as bad if not worse than any other feelings I've had this last month.

I think I need to admit to myself that the checking is by itself adding so much pain. It's just torture. Need to own up to that. I'm ashamed to admit it to anyone not my T or this very post.

One thing I've realized over the last few months, is that cutting ties is more than about the logistics of it (blocking), it doesn't do much to help me actually move on, in my mind. In many ways it makes it harder for me, makes the shock of it all that much more intense, and it doesn't seem right. I know why it's often recommended, it's solid advice as mentioned by daze507.

Excerpt
Hey Dungahass, Right, it's always the Non's fault, according to the pwBPD.  Blaming the Non gets it off their plate and onto yours.  Your task is to decline to take it on.  I have a saying: "Poison is harmless if you don't ingest it."  In other words, don't internalize the blame.  Got it?

I wish it were that simple. I can tell you that I know I had been pretty good to her during the time after the breakup, as I tried to get her back. Definitely good enough to say I didn't deserve to be treated the way I was very often. That was after being discarded already (i.e. the breakup). Today, my mind goes to the past, before the discard, in the beginning stages. I judge myself a lot for those days. Things were good, things were amazing. I was there for her, and we developed strong feelings for each other. Yet I often felt anxious, triggered by things she would do or say. I would talk about those feelings with her. Back then, she would listen. She still cared about my feelings. Over time she obviously stopped caring. I look back at those times and wonder what that anxiety was really about, if it was for me to deal with and figure out, if it was worth it talking things through every time. I think the many serious talks or voicing displeasure got to her over time. She would tell me that its getting to her. I was feeling so insecure, so anxious, and she was being more and more avoidant and dismissive. All that got worse after she broke the recent "exclusivity" we had made to each other by making out with someone new, and then also slept with her ex a couple weeks after that. I gave her a second chance, given where we were as a couple,  but I was a messy ball of anxiety. Insecure and worried a lot of the time. And she was being very dismissive of me, very quickly almost every time I expressed feelings. We started fighting a lot. I beat myself up over past memories of bringing up specific things to her, telling her "this hurt my feelings" or "that's not cool" too many times and talking things through. She once told me "it feels like you don't like me". I got so incredibly sad as I wrote that last sentence. I remember how I felt when I was at my most anxious with her, and why I felt that way. What I'm questioning now is if I should/could have done more to keep that under control. Yeah in a way I'm saying that I should have accepted everything about her. Right now, I feel like I should have. My T says that would mean being a pushover, but in my mind, it feels like something I should have done. She had never been one to express being hurt about things I'd say or do. I wish I had been that way too. She threw all that in my face after the breakup, how it was all my fault that she no longer wants to be with me. That I f*d with her emotions, and didn't pay attention to her warnings. And a month ago, before I walked away, she was still telling me I cause bad feelings in her, anxiety. Some of it is exaggerated, but is it all?

So yes, she has treated me awfully since the breakup over a year ago, and sometimes even before then. I've hurt a lot. I'm still here though wondering if I was the first one to mess things up, if I sucked the love she had for me out of the relationship. I wonder if we could have kept that good path we were on if I had been more chill. If I had known what I wanted earlier. If I had focused more on the good that I'm longing for so much today. This bit is causing me a lot of pain right now, and I made a last minute appointment with my T to talk about it today.
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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2020, 09:12:51 PM »

Excerpt
My T says that would mean being a pushover, but in my mind, it feels like something I should have done.

maybe youre both right.

ive been in that place a hundred times. needy, insecure, over pursuant, even passive aggressive, and it only pushed women i was with away.

its a coping mechanism. its not an attractive one.

but that doesnt mean that the underlying feelings are wrong. 

so much of my recovery has been about learning to spot when, where, and how relationships go wrong, and then what to do about it, in a mature way. i used to think it was about beating someone to the punch and breaking up with them, something i always struggled with. ive since come to realize theres a balance between recognizing a dead end relationship and making the hard choice to walk away, and recognizing when i need to up my game, be more attractive.

its a fine line. sometimes its even too late, the relationship too far gone, for the latter.
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