BPD and deliberate cruelty

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Can anyone offer insight...why do people with BPD act deliberately cruel to their partners? I've read that splitting is a mostly unconscious process and it's supposedly not their "fault." So then why are they intentional in the ways they go about pushing their partners away/hurting them? It's not like they don't know they're doing it!

[teawoman5]

Can anyone offer insight...why do people with BPD act deliberately cruel to their partners? I've read that splitting is a mostly unconscious process and it's supposedly not their "fault." So then why are they intentional in the ways they go about pushing their partners away/hurting them? It's not like they don't know they're doing it!

[Turkish]

 If deep down you feel that your feelings don't matter, and that you don't matter and are unworthy of love, nothing anyone else does is going to change that.  Add to that emotional dysregulation, and it's a recipe for conflict.

I once asked my ex what was going though her head when she raged at others. She responded, "I just want everyone else to feel my pain!"

She'd often wake up Saturday mornings and go on a cleaning rampage, despite us having cleaned the kitchen the night before. I'd go take care of our baby and toddler. She'd go out running. Sometimes she would tell me how ashamed she acted to me and the kids.  Shame, guilt. Yet her overriding anxiety and emotional dysregulation overrode her morals in the moment.

It was certainly cruel for her to throw in my face her double life with her side boy-toy while living with me for 4 months. I think she knew on some level that she was hurting me (and the kids), but her overriding need to be validated and loved was her survival mechanism.

[once removed]

i dont know that theres a hard line here.

people with bpd traits are human beings...human beings are all capable of acting with intention, being cruel, hurting others.

most of the time, if youre talking about the disorder, you have to rely on generalizations. people with bpd traits are impulsive, not big time planners, dont really have the mental soundness to concoct a scheme to hurt you. they tend to be reactive to perceived slights.

the question you are struggling with probably has to do more with the dynamics between the two of you, and how the two of you were operating toward each other, for a specific answer.

so what happened? what did he do that was cruel?

[daze507]

I used to think it was her way to push me to the limit so that I take the decision the end the relationship thus removing that burden from her. Now, I'm not so sure, maybe there's a bit od everything.
One sure I am certain, there are not working as you and me when they have an episode, it's like when you are doing in a very bad mood, you hate everything and everyone for no reason. It's the same for them but amplified tenfold, so yes, they realise but don't really have any control of it, especially if they are not aware of their disorder.

[teawoman5]

i dont know that theres a hard line here.

people with bpd traits are human beings...human beings are all capable of acting with intention, being cruel, hurting others.

most of the time, if youre talking about the disorder, you have to rely on generalizations. people with bpd traits are impulsive, not big time planners, dont really have the mental soundness to concoct a scheme to hurt you. they tend to be reactive to perceived slights.

Thanks for your thoughts. I know you're right that they don't plan. It just seems like many "go for the jugular." It's hard not to see this as deliberate in some way

so what happened? what did he do that was cruel?

His behavior was similar to things I've read on this site: suddenly being too busy to see me, spending all his free time with unnamed friends, weird accusations, withholding affection, periods of cutting contact/ghosting. I used the word cruelty because it seemed like he would exploit the things I valued.

For example, I had an important event I was proud of and was counting on his support for. I told him it would mean a lot for him to be there on time, and he showed up late and acted sullen. When I asked what happened, he gave a half-hearted excuse then attacked and said I shouldn't have expected him to be there and it showed him I was "weak." Another time I said that I missed spending time together on weekends like we used to. So weekends became a sticking point...something he could withhold. He'd say "The weekend is important so I want to save it for my friends." Then started mentioning spending weekend time with a female friend. He planned an outing with her and two others and made a point of excluding me. (There was room in the car and I got along with everybody, so it would have been easy to include me.) It was pretty humiliating to watch my boyfriend drive off with them while I had yet another Saturday alone.

Then there were the more direct jabs and cutting off contact. A rude comment about my weight (and I'm on the thin side). "Joking" that having a girlfriend wasn't "cool" (he's 45). "Forgetting" his phone and ghosting me for days with no explanation.

Also neither of us ever had or wanted to be in an open relationship. He did a 180 and started saying he wanted to go out and meet new people and he liked chasing women (he said he was interested in kissing, not sex). He never actually did any of this...it was more about wanting to get a reaction and hurt me. A couple of weeks later when he calmed down he told me that he brought up the open relationship thing because he thought it would "make us closer."

Then of course there was the breakup which came suddenly when things had been steadily improving. We were planning to see a therapist. He had just told friends he was happy, in love, etc. He cut contact for days then sent an incoherent text message. After all we had been through. It was like having the rug pulled out again just when you thought the storm was over and it was safe to open up again.

[teawoman5]

If deep down you feel that your feelings don't matter, and that you don't matter and are unworthy of love, nothing anyone else does is going to change that.  Add to that emotional dysregulation, and it's a recipe for conflict.

I once asked my ex what was going though her head when she raged at others. She responded, "I just want everyone else to feel my pain!"

She'd often wake up Saturday mornings and go on a cleaning rampage, despite us having cleaned the kitchen the night before. I'd go take care of our baby and toddler. She'd go out running. Sometimes she would tell me how ashamed she acted to me and the kids.  Shame, guilt. Yet her overriding anxiety and emotional dysregulation overrode her morals in the moment.

It was certainly cruel for her to throw in my face her double life with her side boy-toy while living with me for 4 months. I think she knew on some level that she was hurting me (and the kids), but her overriding need to be validated and loved was her survival mechanism.

That sounds so awful. It's mind boggling how callous they can be, apparently even when children are involved. It sounds like you have a good grasp on what it really is: a survival mechanism. It's so unfortunate. I'm still having trouble understanding.

[teawoman5]

I used to think it was her way to push me to the limit so that I take the decision the end the relationship thus removing that burden from her. Now, I'm not so sure, maybe there's a bit od everything.
One sure I am certain, there are not working as you and me when they have an episode, it's like when you are doing in a very bad mood, you hate everything and everyone for no reason. It's the same for them but amplified tenfold, so yes, they realise but don't really have any control of it, especially if they are not aware of their disorder.

Yes. If it helps, my ex would say (when things started getting bad, months in) that his pattern was to 'create conditions where partners break up with him.' So there was definitely awareness that he made it hell for others. But I don't think he wanted the breakups either. He just knew that he treated others badly and no one would stay to put up with that.

There might be an element of self-sabotage where pwBPD treat others badly to "prove" to themselves that everybody breaks up with them because they are unlovable. I don't know. Their thinking is so flawed because if you treat others badly you prevent relationships from growing.

It just seems like for pwBPD there's a mix of seeing their mean behavior and at least sometimes having remorse for it. But also feeling compelled to do it anyway. That's what I have trouble understanding.

[Cromwell]

 :hi:Treating others badly could be a subconcious way of pressure testing the relationship by pushing boundaries in an impulsive way. Try to see how far can take liberties and guage how likely the partner would react to leave. If this goes on there is just open-devaluation all the way, as you say - they know what they are doing, they see also how much has been put up with, for those that stay longer, what does it make them view that situation. Do they see it as the other is staying because they love them so much to tolerate it, or that they are at that moment desperate to be with them and there is then a chance they could leave at any time for someone who treats them better, which just escalates the fear of abandonment.

Try not to take this personally teawoman5, it is perfectly reasonable that there is trouble understanding this - it is not only complex, (who can claim to understand it?) it is a disorder that diverse fields of science are researching into, as much as the relationship you had with him is entirely unique in itself (it takes two for a relationship) This also involves you as much as him, and a bit less in scope towards us and them might bring more insights.    

[l8kgrl]

Teawoman5, might some of this also be him being threatened by you and your success and needing to "bring you down a notch"? When you describe your important event that you wanted him to attend, and then how he behaved, it made me think that maybe your success made him feel "less than" and jealous?

I've wondered about this with my ex too. Like, part of it may be fear of emotional intimacy that causes them to suddenly do awful things to create walls and distance. But part of it might also be that the closer you get, the more they feel inadequate and then they want to make you feel the same way...

I don't know if this rings true for you?

[Turkish]

It just seems like for pwBPD there's a mix of seeing their mean behavior and at least sometimes having remorse for it. But also feeling compelled to do it anyway. That's what I have trouble understanding.

In Understanding The Borderline Mother, the author states, "...lying feels like survival." I think that this translates into many other behaviors as well. 

Despite the mother of our kids leaving me for The One, I saw her demeaning attitude towards him (the turn) only months after they cohabitated after marriage. He was perfect, she gushed about him, yet she ended up treating him worse than me, and ultimately divorcing him.

My kids used to tell me that he would be out in his car at night. His coping was to get away. She punched him.  He should have called the cops but he didn't. She called thar cops on him another time. Petite, pretty scared woman... He was desperate and confused and didn't follow their orders to calm down and he was beaten, hog tied and charged with resisting arrest. 

Cops came another time when he finally moved out. She said things about him to the kids she shouldn't have shared.

Now the kids tell me she told them she'll never marry again because she doesn't want to end up with another guy like him (again, over sharing, she shouldn't tell the kids those things, but they were confused about the loss of their step dad).

I still try to rationalize how she turned on the guy of whom she said "we can be together forever."

Take nothing for granted, and no matter how strong and intoxicating, feelings are transient. That's what I learned from all of my experience.

[teawoman5]

Teawoman5, might some of this also be him being threatened by you and your success and needing to "bring you down a notch"? When you describe your important event that you wanted him to attend, and then how he behaved, it made me think that maybe your success made him feel "less than" and jealous?

I've wondered about this with my ex too. Like, part of it may be fear of emotional intimacy that causes them to suddenly do awful things to create walls and distance. But part of it might also be that the closer you get, the more they feel inadequate and then they want to make you feel the same way...

I don't know if this rings true for you?

Yes it really does. Another poster wrote that his partner wanted others to feel her pain. Maybe emotional intimacy feels like a threat to someone who feels inadequate inside or is in pain because it means letting another person come closer to whatever it is inside that you feel isn't good?

Feeling inadequate and taking others down a notch is also a trait of NPD which seems to overlap in many pwBPD. My ex definitely acted narcissistic at times...I used to just consider it emotional immaturity though it did always "feel" like bigger red flags. With the event I mentioned I believe he wanted to be there on some level but had to sabotage it because it would be a shared moment of happiness/closeness. I've seen other posters talk about partners wBPD ruining holidays, birthdays, other big moments. These milestones normally reinforce relationships but it seems like they are purposely used to dismantle them.

[teawoman5]

In Understanding The Borderline Mother, the author states, "...lying feels like survival." I think that this translates into many other behaviors as well. 

Despite the mother of our kids leaving me for The One, I saw her demeaning attitude towards him (the turn) only months after they cohabitated after marriage. He was perfect, she gushed about him, yet she ended up treating him worse than me, and ultimately divorcing him.

My kids used to tell me that he would be out in his car at night. His coping was to get away. She punched him.  He should have called the cops but he didn't. She called thar cops on him another time. Petite, pretty scared woman... He was desperate and confused and didn't follow their orders to calm down and he was beaten, hog tied and charged with resisting arrest. 

Cops came another time when he finally moved out. She said things about him to the kids she shouldn't have shared.

Now the kids tell me she told them she'll never marry again because she doesn't want to end up with another guy like him (again, over sharing, she shouldn't tell the kids those things, but they were confused about the loss of their step dad).

I still try to rationalize how she turned on the guy of whom she said "we can be together forever."

Take nothing for granted, and no matter how strong and intoxicating, feelings are transient. That's what I learned from all of my experience.

That's a terrible experience for you and her other partner to go through. And especially for the kids involved. No one deserves that. I get how you would still try to rationalize the awful behavior. How could she turn against people she claimed to love? Everything about it is illogical and even tragic.

I think you are right it has something to do with "survival." It's like there is a faulty survival mechanism that overrides everything else. Still, they must see the damage done right? If the kids have to deal with a chaotic home life, the partner goes to the car to escape, the cops are called...doesn't the well being of others matter?

I read from other posts on this site that there is really no way to rationalize it and you have to give up trying to understand. That's hard to do.

I am at a similar place where I see feelings as transient and it will be hard to ever trust in relationships again. At the same time normally when people fall out of love or decide a relationship is not working it is a process that happens gradually over time. It's not sudden "turn" where one suddenly wakes up one day and has painted the other black. A healthy mind wouldn't work that way, right? I hope it's not something one would have to fear going forward in a normal relationship.

[MeandThee29]

We ultimately put up with what we believe we deserve. And some of us think we can save a relationship that isn't ours to save.

But, gosh I put up with some genuine horrors. Our mutual therapist sounded the alarm for some time before it broke up, and then told me as the divorce process started that she had feared that he would destroy me for years. Both divorce lawyers made similar comments. They couldn't imagine how I survived.

In retrospect, I know why I put up with it.

Why he did it is something he may not himself even understand. But you just don't treat people you supposedly love like that. I've read that sometimes people view others so functionally that they have to punish them and don't grasp the impact of what they do. They may treat you horribly and then expect good treatment back because they are focused on your function to them, not who you are.

[teawoman5]

We ultimately put up with what we believe we deserve. And some of us think we can save a relationship that isn't ours to save.

But, gosh I put up with some genuine horrors. Our mutual therapist sounded the alarm for some time before it broke up, and then told me as the divorce process started that she had feared that he would destroy me for years. Both divorce lawyers made similar comments. They couldn't imagine how I survived.

In retrospect, I know why I put up with it.

Why he did it is something he may not himself even understand. But you just don't treat people you supposedly love like that. I've read that sometimes people view others so functionally that they have to punish them and don't grasp the impact of what they do. They may treat you horribly and then expect good treatment back because they are focused on your function to them, not who you are.

Thanks for your thoughts. It sounds like you went through an incredibly difficult experience but managed to get out and save yourself. With some of the stories here it sounds like people deserve medals of courage.

What you say makes a lot of sense. It's chilling to hear that a partner could see you in terms of your function to them but it rings true. Maybe they just don't grasp the emotional impact or their "need" to lash out trumps everything else. But it almost doesn't matter...no partner should live with that.

My ex definitely didn't understand why he was doing it. He could describe a sudden shift in feelings toward partners that was extreme white/black. He said it was like "suddenly seeing all of their flaws". But then somehow a jump is made to trying to actively hurt them?

I know what you mean about some of us staying because we feel like we "deserve" the treatment we got. Looking back I called out my ex on his behavior as soon as it started to change. I told him I would leave. I ended up staying because he promised me it would get better. I had never even heard of BPD at that point and I believed it. I could see he was fighting whatever the "pattern" was.

Now I think when behavior to a loved one descends to that low level it's really hard to win back a relationship. I wish I did not cling to the idea that it could improve. I've learned that this mental illness is stronger than any partner's love or good intentions.