How do I stay out of it? Tools needed.

[pursuingJoy]

I could use some help and reminders with tools.

In a nutshell, my H and my D16 (his stepdaughter) don't get along. He keeps repeating that she's selfish. Whatever the source, his hurt leads to passive aggressive behavior and condescending treatment of her. She moved in with her dad two years ago, doesn't come over often, and avoids H when she's here.

Last night, after he spoke to her about it, she opened and closed doors too loud after we'd gone to sleep, waking us both up several times. Rude and inconsiderate, maybe even passive aggressive? I was frustrated too. I got up and addressed it. She apologized to me and seemed sincere, and she didn't do it again.

I let him know I addressed it with her (he says that I don't "back him up"). He has to work in the office today, so in addition to addressing it with her, I told him that I would find ways to make the old doors less noisy (they squeak, handles are loose, and overhanging towel racks bang against the doors when they move). He lost it, told me to stop defending her, and told me there was no cure for her freaking selfishness. (<- Black and white thinking towards her is normal, but why is he angry at me? Did I invalidate him? If so, how?)

My goals were validating his concerns and facilitating a solution. I clearly missed the boat. I can see a measure of rescuing in my response, something I'm trying not to do. What else am I missing? Where'd I go wrong?

Today, I'm not chasing him down to make him feel better. I'm letting him have his feelings without getting caught up in his storm.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Face of Melinda]

Hello. I think when you mentioned the doors and he felt you were defending her, he has an attitude of, 'You're either with me or you're against me". I'd say you're proactive at fixing the doors and that was a smart idea but I'd keep your proactive solutions on the down-low. I've learned I can avoid a lot of conflict by not talking about things he'll never notice anyway. My partner is hypersensitive of whether I'm on his side or not. That's tough when you've got a daughter who needs you to be on her side too. It's that endless struggle to smooth everything over.

[Radcliff]

Today, I'm not chasing him down to make him feel better. I'm letting him have his feelings without getting caught up in his storm.

Brilliant.  Good strategy.  Takes a while to develop this skill, but it helps, doesn't it?

You're doing a great job.  I agree with Face of Melinda that talking about oiling the doors probably seemed like you were trying to make the doors the problem and invalidating his issues with her.  Great idea to tend to the doors, but better to do it in the background.

I'm sorry that you're coping with conflict between him and your daughter.  My daughters live with my ex, and I sorely miss them, so I imagine that you want her time with you to be as good as possible.

Can you tell us a bit about why he thinks she's selfish?  What behaviors of hers seem to set him off?  Understanding that might help us to think of ways to validate him and possibly lower the conflict level.

RC

[once removed]

i dont see really see much in the way of error here, pJ.

clearly theres a rift between your daughter and her stepfather. and it sounds like youre taking both sides into account. you cant fix that rift, but you can do what you can, ya know?

its a tricky situation. youre sort of caught in the middle, and dont want to take a particular side, but do want to be united and on the same page with your husband.

He lost it,
...
My goals were validating his concerns and facilitating a solution. I clearly missed the boat.

i dont think you missed the boat. he just wasnt ready for your goals.

Today, I'm not chasing him down to make him feel better. I'm letting him have his feelings without getting caught up in his storm.

its a good move. give him some space, let him cool off until hes in a more productive place.

now might be a time where i would bring it back up. ask questions ie "you were saying _____? do i have that right?" and get him to elaborate. listen. dont push solutions, yet, just let him know youre listening, and try and get a sense for whats driving him and whats really valid here. bring what you learn back here.

a day or two after that, he might be in a better place to work toward solutions.

[pursuingJoy]

Face of Melinda, this!

My partner is hypersensitive of whether I'm on his side or not.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this too but it is so nice to be understood.

It played out again last week. H, my 16yo (I'll call her C) and I got into a political conversation (something I avoid like the plague, especially with the two of them, but they've been getting along a little better and I let my guard down). He is a chronic interrupter and has asked me to let him know when he does it. When he kept cutting C off, I said, "Please let her finish what she was saying." He turned on me in a rage, pointed his finger at my face and said, "Stop, I do not need your help." He felt justified in speaking to me like that because he said I was taking her side.

I'm sorry that you're coping with conflict between him and your daughter.  My daughters live with my ex, and I sorely miss them, so I imagine that you want her time with you to be as good as possible.

Can you tell us a bit about why he thinks she's selfish?  What behaviors of hers seem to set him off?  Understanding that might help us to think of ways to validate him and possibly lower the conflict level.

RC

RC, I'm at a low point and I really needed your encouragement today. Thank you. I also really appreciate the understanding about kids. Even more painful than H's dysregulation is missing my kids. I am able to sit with this, without controlling, but it's painful, you know?

To answer your question, I'm not sure what it is about C that makes him think she's selfish. I've asked him directly, but his responses are circular and side-step the question. I've tried to get context clues. We have 6 kids, 5 at home, and C is the one that trips his emotional triggers.

Could be scapegoating? The first incident I can trace his rage back to: friends used to watch our kids after school. They'd offered that she could have what she wanted from the pantry. One day she took a whole bag of chips she liked, unopened, and brought them home and put them in our pantry. H found out and blew a lid and for about 8 months, raged at me for an hour or two at night several times a week, about how selfish she was, how he hated thieves. She hasn't stolen anything since, that I know of. His bio daughter was caught stealing books from school, things out of other kids' backpacks, money from her sister on several occasions - this went on for about two years, and his response was measured sadness and frustration.

Unaddressed emotional trauma of his own? H's only brother committed suicide about 20 years ago. Two years ago C was hospitalized for suicidal ideation. When she came home, H told her she was selfish for wanting to do that. Even before that, he would make comments about how people were just manipulative if they said they wanted to commit suicide. He thought the right response to suicidal ideation was to say, "Do it then" because it would force them out of their dramatic moment and get them to think about what they were doing.

She's the one that's most like his mom? H's mom most likely has BPD, at least according to our therapist. Of all of our kids, C exhibits behaviors that mimic BPD - mood swings, depression, strong emotions, etc. I'm familiar with these stages having raised teens. He hasn't come to terms with his mom's behavior, nor has he raised a teen so may not be able to differentiate? He may be projecting his anger at his mom onto C? The reason this option may be a contender is that C is now learning to regulate, my youngest is beginning to get moody, and H's attention is starting to shift to the youngest.

its a tricky situation. youre sort of caught in the middle, and dont want to take a particular side, but do want to be united and on the same page with your husband.

i dont think you missed the boat. he just wasnt ready for your goals.

OR, I found your reply very centering. I invest most of my time and energy into understanding him. It's one of my strengths but taken too far, I own responsibility that isn't mine and it's used to try to control my circumstances. What you wrote made me realize that my situation just IS. Blended families are tricky in the best of circumstances and BPD in a blended family make it even more so. Some of this requires my acceptance and releasing control. Big hug and thank you for the gift of centering. 

pj

[kells76]

pJ, Hi from over on Family Law 

It played out again last week. H, my 16yo (I'll call her C) and I got into a political conversation (something I avoid like the plague, especially with the two of them, but they've been getting along a little better and I let my guard down). He is a chronic interrupter and has asked me to let him know when he does it. When he kept cutting C off, I said, "Please let her finish what she was saying." He turned on me in a rage, pointed his finger at my face and said, "Stop, I do not need your help." He felt justified in speaking to me like that because he said I was taking her side.

Ugh, political talk. I'm with you. Can be so divisive and triggering.

Two things come to mind from your description:

One, there may be some unspoken, differing rules that you and H have about this whole "let him know when he does it" idea. One rule may be "Let me know AT THE EXACT TIME when I AM doing it". The other rule may be "Let me know AFTER THE FACT about when I WAS doing it". Have you guys had a chance to talk through "unspoken assumptions" about the "I want your help pointing out interrupting" idea? Make things more explicit and specific?

Two, I notice a triangle happening with H, C, and you. Has C shared with you whether she "wanted" or "needed" intervention in that moment? What would it be like to chat with her afterwards about what you're willing or able to do when she and H talk politics? I'm envisioning something like "C, talking politics isn't my thing. So, when I hear you and H having political discussions, I think what I'm going to do is stay out of it and let you guys have your time. Do you feel able to exit a conversation if it gets too intense for you? Want to talk through any ideas for that?"

IDK... something where the way you support C in not getting interrupted isn't to step in the middle as it's happening, but to provide her with skills and phrases so she can manage herself when she chooses to engage with H about a high-intensity topic.

I don't know a ton about C's abilities, maturity, etc, so take it all with a grain of salt. But allowing yourself to not enter the triangle could be a good way of, like you've done before, letting them BOTH have their feelings without getting caught up in their storm.

All that being said, I imagine it's very difficult to watch someone you love shut down your own child. It's certainly understandable that you stepped in. I say this as someone who is agonizing over just telling my SD14 that I did not think I was the right person for her to talk to about her gripes with my DH.

Hope this provides some food for thought;

kells76

[pursuingJoy]

One, there may be some unspoken, differing rules that you and H have about this whole "let him know when he does it" idea.

He's told me to let him know in the moment that he was interrupting. I reminded him of this when we spoke about it later. Thank goodness we had clarity about that.

Two, I notice a triangle happening with H, C, and you.

Ugh yes, and something that I am continuously working to stay out of. Like OR said it's a tricky balance. When I spoke to him, he kept bringing her up and I kept steering it back to ONLY what was between the two of us. I told him if he had an issue with C, he was welcome to bring it up with her.

IDK... something where the way you support C in not getting interrupted isn't to step in the middle as it's happening, but to provide her with skills and phrases so she can manage herself when she chooses to engage with H about a high-intensity topic.

C and her older sister have shared with me on separate occasions that he scares them. He gets overbearing, loud and mean when he gets angry. I've felt scared of him too.

When C and I debriefed, she said she was angry when I left because she needed me there. I told her I wouldn't have left unless I thought she was strong enough to hold her own. We went over some tools and communication tactics and how to address interrupting, not just with him, but with anyone. She admitted that she interrupted him, too. She said she felt stronger for having engaged him in conversation.

I don't trust him to stay rational or level, but my confidence (and C's confidence) in her ability to hold her own is growing, and that confidence is what I work on building when I talk to her.

C was most angry at the way he treated me. I let her know that it was not ok, but being angry on my behalf was not her responsibility, and I steered the conversation back to her.

And I've second guessed every single moment of every single conversation. Ugh.

I say this as someone who is agonizing over just telling my SD14 that I did not think I was the right person for her to talk to about her gripes with my DH.

Kells blended families are not easy, are they? We do the best we can until we know better, then we do better.

[kells76]

He's told me to let him know in the moment that he was interrupting. I reminded him of this when we spoke about it later. Thank goodness we had clarity about that.

How did it go when you reminded him later?

Ugh yes, and something that I am continuously working to stay out of. Like OR said it's a tricky balance. When I spoke to him, he kept bringing her up and I kept steering it back to ONLY what was between the two of us. I told him if he had an issue with C, he was welcome to bring it up with her.

I get surprised by triangles, too. Sometimes I can't identify them until I'm in one. That seems like the best you can do -- the "let's focus on the two of us right here, right now" move, and just not accept the invitation to involve a third person as a discussion topic.

C and her older sister have shared with me on separate occasions that he scares them. He gets overbearing, loud and mean when he gets angry. I've felt scared of him too.

That's too bad -- I'm sorry that's how things are for your family.

When C and I debriefed, she said she was angry when I left because she needed me there. I told her I wouldn't have left unless I thought she was strong enough to hold her own. We went over some tools and communication tactics and how to address interrupting, not just with him, but with anyone. She admitted that she interrupted him, too. She said she felt stronger for having engaged him in conversation.

I don't trust him to stay rational or level, but my confidence (and C's confidence) in her ability to hold her own is growing, and that confidence is what I work on building when I talk to her.

C was most angry at the way he treated me. I let her know that it was not ok, but being angry on my behalf was not her responsibility, and I steered the conversation back to her.

That sounds like a positive outcome. You shared some tools, she shared how she felt, and you exited another triangle invitation.

And I've second guessed every single moment of every single conversation. Ugh.

I get it. It's really hard. Even when I can step back and say "the way SD14 responds is NOT an indicator of whether I did the right thing or not"... still so hard. I feel you on the second guessing 

[once removed]

He's told me to let him know in the moment that he was interrupting. I reminded him of this when we spoke about it later. Thank goodness we had clarity about that.

sometimes this is just the way it goes.

agreements...boundaries...shared values...these are things that just sometimes need to be revisited and discussed. not everything will go according to plan in the moment, but ideally, we touch base, and work to get back on the same page. in other words, people need reminders.

Ugh yes, and something that I am continuously working to stay out of. Like OR said it's a tricky balance.

the "rescuer" in a triangle is in the strongest position to affect change. the tricky balance is knowing not only when to stay out, but when and how to step if youre going to stay in.

Be caring, but don't overstep. We do not want to let our fears, obligation and guilt to control us or allow us to be manipulated into taking care of another person when it really isn't healthy to do so. Instead of being the rescuer  and doing the thinking, taking the lead, doing more than our share, doing more than is asked of us -  simply be a supportive, empathetic listener and provide reflection, coaching, and assistance if the person asks and is taking the lead themselves. It is important to recognize the other person as an equal (not one-down) and give the other person the respect of letting them take care of themselves, solve their own problems, and deal with their feelings as they choose. Remember, the rescuer  has the most pivotal position on the drama triangle - you are in the strongest position, at least initially, to redirect the dynamic into healthy territory.

[pursuingJoy]

How did it go when you reminded him later?

He didn't deny that's what he asked, but he kept referring to feeling I took her side. I didn't drill it home, but I did speak the truth as a reminder. Like OR said, it'll happen. We all need reminders. He didn't like it, but he also knows he asked me to let him know in the moment.

That's too bad -- I'm sorry that's how things are for your family.

His temper and rage have become much worse in the past year, partly assisted by alcohol. It took me a long time to work up the nerve to tell him, and when I did, he wavered between denial and shock. It's not how he perceives himself so it's hard to absorb. I understand why it's hard to swallow, but I really need him to accept it. He's hurting us.

I feel you on the second guessing 

 

in other words, people need reminders.

Really helpful centering. You're so right. This is just reality. Thanks, OR.

the "rescuer" in a triangle is in the strongest position to affect change. the tricky balance is knowing not only when to stay out, but when and how to step if youre going to stay in.

I needed that excerpt! I knew in my gut I'd done the right thing, but in the hours after our last conversation I was overwhelmed with guilt and a desire to rescue...I had to fight to just keep it steady and not jump in to soothe him. I completely missed this part about the rescuer in my first readings of the karpman triangle. This excerpt offers direct guidance about how/when. I'll reread this in the days to come. Thank you!

pj

[pursuingJoy]

OR, just want to say thank you again for the reminder about the rescuer role. I've thought a lot about it this weekend and it's been helpful!
pj

[once removed]

when i first learned about triangulation, my takeaway was "STAY OUT". dont do it, dont participate in it.

thats not possible nor always practical in a family dynamic. its not even always helpful.

the karpman drama triangle article mentions that we tend to gravitate toward the role in the triangle that we learned in our childhood.

i was an only child. that meant i was anything between an observer, someone to vent to, someone to deem who was right and wrong, and a "peacemaker". at any given time, i was a stabilizing factor, or a destabilizing one.

navigating triangulation is not always about staying out (it certainly can be). its about recognizing the role youre playing in it, and whether its a constructive one or not; triangulation can be good or bad. as a family member, you necessarily play one, an important, and potentially very effective one, for better or worse. being involved has consequences. not being involved has consequences.