Possible Alienation of Grandchild from Grandparents/Uncle

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!  I hope everyone is doing well with these trying times.

I am not sure I am posting in the correct place.  I filled in my subject line as close to the situation as possible, but it is not totally correct.

My son and his U-BPD girlfriend of 5-1/2 years are now broken up.  This happened a year ago this April.  Since then they are co-parenting.  We feel so concerned about our grandchild for a number of reasons.  With the pandemic that we are all going through, we of course have no idea where she is going with our grandson.  Her judgement has always been flawed.  She recently lost her day-time job and her bar job has also been lost temporarily due to shut down, so she is available every day to watch her children.  This may sound like a great situation, especially now, with what is going on in our world. 

When she left my son, she admitted to cheating (I mean going on trips with other men sure wasn't too much to figure out for us, but apparently it was for my son), and then went on to tell him, she has nothing left to give him, she hates their house, she does not lovehim anymore and furthermore has developed feelings for a new man.  She immediately moved in with her new guy, 3 months later got engaged to him and their wedding date is set for 11/28/2020.  So, she takes him to her fiance's home on a regular basis which is located in an area that is beginning to get more and more cases of the Covid-19 virus.  She goes to the playground and allows him on the playground equipment.  The fact that she has no job, is available to her kids 24/7 and now with the pandemic and being told to "stay at home", this has to be her worst nightmare.

Our grandson is like a little ping-pong ball being with her Mon/Tuesday, his dad on Wed/Thurs, Fridays they alternate, Saturday with Mom nad Sunday with Dad.  I asked him if he thought it would be better to do a week at a time and he told me he did not believe she could handle that!  How the truths are starting to come out! 

Usually my son and our GS come over every Sunday to spend the day together and it seems every time he has been with his mom, he is distancing himself from us.  We play with him all the time, give him lots of attention and love, and he used to get upset and cry when it was time for them to go home.  He seems so different.  Now with the pandemic going on, we are not see my son or GS at all because of concerns of exposure as we are in a high risk group.  That, in and of itself is very difficult, but more so to think she may be alienating us from him.  I think the reason this idea has come to mind is because we have actually witnessed it be done numerous times with her daughter - toward us as well as hearing her tell her daughter "not to go around so and so, don't do this, don't do that, clearly to keep her away from this person for absolutely no reason other than she has gotten into disagreements with these people.  Again, this was witnessed by all of us when she would do this to her daughter, so basically if I don't like the, she does not allow her children to either.

So the alienation possibility and where she is going with him and allowing him to do during this Covid-19 situation is both infuriating to me as well as so sad, as we don't know when this will all end and I am just longing to give my GS a tight hug and kiss!  My fear is he will back off from us all and we will have to try to begin a relationship with him all over if he will let us. 

Any opinions or observations in anything I might have said?  Would really like some advice, thoughts, questions, whatever anyone would like to share. 

Thanks for your support!

Angie59   

[Sluggo]

Angie,

I am sorry you have to watch your son go through this.  The hardest part for me was to evaluate and be honest about my flaws to see why I would marry a person with BPD behaviors in the first place and then doing the work not to enter in that type of relationship again.  

There was a sense of true comfort that my siblings and parents accepted me with warts and all.  The unconditional love is what I craved after being in a toxic environment so long.  I am sure your grandkids feel your unconditional love from you regardless whether they express it.  

I have gotten great comfort in learning about alienation from Dr. Childress.  His book Foundations explained the dynamics of my dysfunctional relationship almost verbatim.   Another than the book, he has a lot of good info.  www.dr-childress-index.droppages.com/#videos-tab

I also like Ryan Thomas Speaks.  He comes from the viewpoint of the child
  It helped me understand what the kids were going through and not take it so personally and made me empathetic of their situation.  

Hope that helps some.  

Sluggo

[Angie59]

Thank you Sluggo!  I will definitely look into both of the resources you mentioned.  They sound like they would be helpful to me in both supporting my son and loving him unconditionally, which  I do.  The love is always there, my frustration is with myself sometimes because I feel I would never let myself be treated like he was treated and can't understand why he allowed it - as well as still to this day talking to her as if they were best friends or something!  Lots of hurt, lots of questions, lots of pain still there for my son and for past actions when he was with her.  I think I also take it personally when my grandson is not as responsive as I would like him to be during Facetime (which we now use because of the Coronavirus).  I need to see it from his perspective and perhaps the resources you suggested will shine some light on it all for me.

Thank you again, Sluggo, for your reply.  It is much appreciated! 

P.S.  I love your screen name and the comics character you have.  Brings back lots of memories for me!  Be safe and stay well!
 

[Sluggo]

Angie,

Yes I understand what you might feel.

 I did the same thing to my parents and siblings.  At request of wife at that time, I stopped all communication with all family.   For almost 3 years,..  I went as far as not visiting my father in hospice because wife said I did not leave work early to visit her so I shouldn't my father. 

The few times I did communicate, My wife would write any texts to my family for me from my phone.   If I talked to them on the phone, it was on speaker with her listening. 

Deep down I knew my family would always love me, I was just trying to survive.  The day I agreed to not talked to my family, bpdwife flipped 180 degrees.  After 4 weeks of silence and raging, she changed in an instant and became loving again like nothing happened.  If I, as a man, could be so under her control, imagine worse a child. 

My wife was mentally unhealthy  ...  but as my therapist told me, people of similar pathologies marry each other.  So as unhealthy my wife was , I also was unhealthy.  Unfortunately personality disorders usually dont improve, but I was able to.  The stronger I got, the.more I saw my unhealthy behaviors.  The more I changed my behaviors, the more our arguments escalated.  Until the ultimate escalation,  using our kids as her instrument to inflict punishment... to act out her dislike of me through them. 

Really the same thing I did to my family.  The grandkids know that they will be loved more by behaving in a way that promotes moms feelings.  Just like my wife showered me affection toward me when I did what I know she wanted I imagine the grandkids get more attention from mom. 

Sluggo

[Angie59]

Hello again Sluggo!

So much of what you said makes sense.  Right now, I would think my son's uBPD girlfriend is living her worst nightmare.  She has no job while my son is still working, so she has no where to go all day and now we have the pandemic!  I truly think she is not staying at home with them as I don't think she could take it all day.  This is the way she was in their relationship.  Her daughter (from another guy) was on 4 months old when they met and he seemed to become the main caregiver for the baby pretty quickly, as she would go out and shop, or go down stairs to pain, but not available.  Mothering skills were pretty much absent for her.  I cannot imagine what is going on now that everyone is figuring she will be at home with 2 kids with no help.  As you said, I cannot see her changing that drastically.  So I don't really know where my grandson is ending up each day, which is scary to me with this terrible pandemic going on.  It makes sense though if he is with her more and more his behavior will change in ways that are pleasing to her.  We have been separated from him now almost 3 weeks and it feels like 3 months!

One thing, if I might ask you to explain, is when you said "you were just trying to survive," and you really sound (as well as actions) a lot like my son.  My thinking (and please, this is no offense to you, just trying to understand), is why try to survive?  Why not end this terrible situation.  I understand having children complicates situations, but I personally could simply not stand being treated so poorly.  It isn't I'm any better, stronger, or anything else than you or my son, it's just not me.  What made you stay?  It was my son's uBPD girlfriend who broke up with him.  I cannot see 5-1/2 years of such misery and on top of it, the ones who love you the most are getting treated like &%&(. 

Sometimes I put things too bluntly and I do hope I haven't offended you by what I'm saying.  Again, it doesn't mean to me that you are a bad person, nor did I feel my son was, but turning your back on your family where you know you are loved unconditionally, for a relationship of what appears to be nothing but control, humiliation, demeaning, and misery doesn't' make sense to me.

Unfortunately I still cannot find it in me to forgive her.  I have forgiven my son for the most part and we have a good relationship and I am so glad we have him back, but when I think of ways we were treated and lied to, well, I find it hard to forgive him too and that makes me sad to say that.

 

[Sluggo]

One thing, if I might ask you to explain, is when you said "you were just trying to survive," and you really sound (as well as actions) a lot like my son.  My thinking (and please, this is no offense to you, just trying to understand), is why try to survive?  Why not end this terrible situation

It is a fair question, one that many others on this board may be able to help answer also.  Here are some different thoughts about it. 

For me, when she was in a good mood she was awesome.  So tender, gentle, and would put me on a pedestal.  That feeling became I drug.  Like a gambler losing money after each pull of a slot machine, waiting for that next big payout.  , the hope is alway that she will go back to her loving loving demeanor.  I never knew when it would happen which made it that much more addictive. 

I felt marriage was for life.  I made the mistake of choosing het so I needed to make it work.  Nobody forced me to marry her.  I made my bed so I had to sleep in it. 

Ironically,  I falsely felt I had the power in relationship.  I thought I could control her through my actions.  If I just behaved the way she wanted I could control her outbursts.  I avoid conflict in general, so better to try to control with my behavior than co front it. 

I would acquiesce to her opinions or demands to get her to change to how I wanted her which was loving.  .  However, it would only work for a while and there would be more demands.  Over time, those demands came more and more frequent.  I lost.myself. ( a good book to read is' codependent no more" by Melanie Beatty).

Funny as soon as she went back to being loving, I would almost forget everything that happened.  I was just so happy everything was ok.  It is like the calm after a terrible storm.  That sense of peace and hope it would stay that way.    I felt that way until it happened again. 

I met her living in a different country and not speaking my native language.  I was very lonley.    I think a lot of nuances were missed because of our lack of understanding each other.  I thought some of her rage was just part of the culture. She did not meet my family or my friends until we married so there was not anyone I grew up with that I could talk with who really new me.  I lived in that country 4 years.  We married my 3rd year there. 

Those are some thoughts.  I wouldn't expect you to get it.  Much of what I explained I was able to grasp after leaving the relationship with a lot of reading and therapy. 

I started therapy 5 .5 years before filing for divorce.  We both had comprehensive pysch tests done due to our marital problems.  That is when she was diagnosed with a personality disorder and I was diagnosed with depression and dependencing issues.  When we got our results the psychologist stated we both needed therapy.   But he warned us that most people divorce after about 5 years because one person gets well and the other cant...  therefore the pathologies that brought them together no longer survive if one is better.  He was right. 

 

[ForeverDad]

Much of Sluggo's reply echoed my own experience.  You will find that most here admit we are/were co-dependent, trying to accommodate the increasingly erratic mood swings.  We lived in hope and dreams that things would get better, that the last rant and rage was the last, that we wouldn't have to face the prospect of divorce.  But we lived the parable of the frog in a slowly heating pot.  It worsened slowly enough that we delayed jumping out, and the longer we waited the harder it got.

You may imagine how hard it is for the misbehaving, disordered person.  And it is hard.  But it's even more so the person's comfort zone, the pattern of behaviors that is what they're accustomed to.  And you'll be fought tooth and nail to resist change.  Your son can't fix her, he's too close for her to ignore the emotional baggage of their past relationship.  BPD is a disorder most evident the closer the relationship.  You can't fix her either.  Only she can fix herself, but she has to want to improve and she needs expert trained guidance from an emotionally neutral professional, probably for years and even then no one can predict how much she may or may not improve.

If she can't handle parenting, then your son should look for opportunities to assume more parenting and parental responsibility.  Often we get immense opposition because there is a custody struggle.  Maybe before it gets to court she will Let Go of parenting sufficient for son to step in to fill the gap, hopefully without her overreacting and resuming a struggle.

You say you can't forgive her.  That's okay.  Some things are such a deep hurt that you can't let the person off the hook.  But... can you Let Go?  What I did was ask God to take the load that was too much for me.  It's not up to me to decide her fate, good or bad.  And that's a relief.

[Angie59]

Thank you Sluggo and Forever Dad for taking the time to explain how you both felt and were trying to accomplish with your BPD ex-partners.  It sheds light on my lack of  understanding of the behaviors of both parties. 

Sluggo, you certainly seemed to have had a unique situation with being in another country at the time and not really having anyone you could turn to to talk about things regarding your ex-BPD.  That had to have been very hard.  Your explanation of the addictiveness of it all was a great analogy to use and made it easier for me to understand.  Early on when I first joined this website, I recall asking someone else the same question and he responded the same way.  You brought that memory back to me when saying that.  (Sometimes my memory fails me!)  You are so right about letting go and giving the forgiveness part to God.  I pray for this often because I believe that not forgiving someone is truly not the way God wants us to lead our lives.  I'm certainly not perfect and hope that God will forgive my shortcomings, and we must do the same with others.  That hope of forgiveness for not only her, but for my son as well has been in God's hands for some time now.  It is more anger toward her and a very deep hurt toward my son.  I do so wish my son would get the help he needs and I have suggested this to him many times, therapy, books to read, and even this website.  However, he feels he is just fine and I still see so many codependent behaviors in him.  My greatest fear is that he will select someone else with BPD, as he is on dating apps right now. 

Forever Dad, what your explanation was made perfect sense to me as well.  It is sad for both parties involved.  You mentioned one of the two gets better and that is what makes the change to leave the relationship.  In this case, she broke up with my son for another man.  They just 4 months later and are now planning a November wedding (this year).  It's kind of the same pattern of everything moving so quickly in the beginning just like it did with my son.  It's hard to believe she is "better," but perhaps she is.  I hope for her that she is, especially for the children's sake.  I hear some disturbing things from my grandson after he has been with her and now he is supposedly spending much more time with her with the stay at home orders (although I don't know if she is actually doing this).  We would hear things that were so uncharacteristic of him such as "Don't touch me," or "I don't want to play with you, I'm busy with my toys right now," sometimes turning away from our affection.  We don't know why and we are all bothered by his reactions and don't know what is going on, if anything.  He is definitely acting different towards us and even though he is only almost 4, it still hurts us.  Our son doesn't think she is saying anything to alienate him.  I hope not.  However, we have seen and heard for ourselves doing it to her daughter about someone the little girl liked a lot at her work, who her mother was on the outs with and she instructed her not to go up to her, talk to her and stay away from her, etc.  or she would beat her $^%."  After the breakup with our son, her daughter, who all of us were very close to, wouldn't look at us during a recital our grandson was having that we all attended.  It was a heartbreaking moment when she looked at her mom and saw her distracted talking to someone that she turned around to us and blew us a kiss very quickly and turned back around.  It broke our hearts.  So of course we are going to be suspect of this now.  Not my son.  He still believes everything she says, doesn't think she would alienate our grandson, stays in her good graces, etc...Even though we don't have to actually interact with her anymore or see her anymore, she is still affecting our lives.  I've got to find a way to not let this affect me so much.  My son's reactions are like he is still blinded by everything she did.  I don't know.  Just hoping it would all end.