Does anyone have experience w shoring up boundaries w bpd person

[juju2]

Hi

Am looking at how do I correct previous unworkable boundaries.

Without going in to a lot of details, suffice to say I had zero to non existent boundaries for the majority of our 11 year r/s.
I now know better and am working on boundaries.

Specifically, how does one communicate these new boundaries especially in places where I was woefully lacking in the past.

If someone can give examples from their life regarding this issue.
I appreciate it.

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[TRB]

The biggest thing I have learned about "success" with boundaries is that I only have control over myself.  In the end I can't make my pwBPD stick to my boundaries.  For a long time I judged my "success" by how much my pwBPD respected my boundaries.  This just led me to be more reactive to them, always wondering, "What else can I try to get her to respect my boundaries?"  I was running on the hamster wheel.  Yes, there were certain strategies I tried that sometimes led her to respect my boundaries more than others.  But my big lesson was that the only thing I had control over was myself, including how I responded if my pwBPD did not respect my boundaries.

Ross Rosenberg has a good free video on YouTube called "The 3 Strike Rule: Setting Effective Boundaries with Narcissists."  I found it helpful.

I also read in a few places about a technique (maybe someone else will remember who created this) that has 4 parts:

(1) When you do A,
(2) I feel B.
(3) If you continue to do A, I will do C.
(4) (Optional) I request that you do D.

An example would be: "When you speak to me in a raised voice and call me names, I feel sad and distant from you.  If you continue to speak to me in a raised voice, I will exit the conversation.  I ask that you speak to me in a calm and respectful tone."

Some key points:

• (1) and (2) are not "You made me feel B."  You are not blaming the other person for your feelings.  You are just stating a fact that when the other person did A, the feeling of B came up in you.
• The technique is most effective when you say everything with no emotion, especially anger or irritation.  This can be really hard.  I have had to practice it a lot, and I still slip.  People with BPD are extremely attuned to your attitude and will pick up on the slightest irritation in you.  You have to say all of these things in a very calm, matter of fact way.  It doesn't seem fair, but I have found it to be extremely helpful, and saying any of the above with irritation or indignation can nullify the positive effects of it all.

Notice that the consequence that you state in step (3) is not making a demand of the pwBPD or criticizing them at all.  You are purely stating your own feelings and taking responsibility for them and for your own actions.

Although you are not demanding that the pwBPD act differently, you are stating clearly what action if you will take if the pwBPD keeps acting in the way that is hurtful to you.  The pwBPD might then continue to violate your boundary.  If that happens, it is critical that you take the action that you said you would take in step (3).  I can't say I have mastered this, but I am getting better.  Consistency is key.  The really hard part for me is that it might be necessary to repeat this whole process for the same behavior many times. It's a setup for failure to go into this believing that the purpose of this is to get the pwBPD to change and stop violating your boundaries.  They might and they might not.  You need to be prepared to say everything above "correctly" and for the pwBPD to just walk right over your boundary and do it proudly!  My own experience has been a mixed bag, and in the instances where my pwBPD's behavior has changed, it has been very slowly over a long period of time after sticking to my guns with this type of approach many, many times.

And (not to depress you), I have seen "progress" come in waves, with some boundary violations that I thought would never happen again repeat themselves after not happening for a while.  So I repeat the above again.  It is very difficult but I have not found anything better, assuming that you do not have the option, or do not want to exercise the option, of leaving the relationship entirely.

What I find empowering about this is that it "works" no matter how the pwBPD responds to it.  If the pwBPD responds by respecting my boundary, great.  If not, then I take the action that I said I would take, and I protect myself against further immediate boundary violations.  I am no longer playing the game of reacting to the pwBPD's reactions and trying to figure out how to force them to act the way I want them to act.

One thing I have found helpful is to plan out the statements above in advance. I am not very good at improvising when my pwBPD violates a boundary of mine.  Most people aren't.  In that moment, I am feeling sad, angry, afraid, or some other emotion that is probably hampering my ability to form a rational plan.  My advantage is that I know my pwBPD very well, and there are some very predictable ways in which she will likely violate my boundaries.  So I imagine those situations and plan out what I am going to say.  I try putting myself in the situation so that I feel my own sadness, anger, fear, etc., and I practice saying what I need to say as calmly as possible.  It really helps.  If I tried to improvise on the spot I would likely fail at it.

I hope this is helpful!

[juju2]

Thank you TRB.

Appreciate your sharing. This helps me.

And what I am most struggling with is using constructive boundaries - new ways of being that he isn't familiar with.

For instance, when we meet up, he is almost always 15 minutes late. 9 out of 10 times.

The old me wouldn't say or do anything.
He is self employed and makes his own schedule.  He can be and is,  on time for other things in his life.

I can move the time we meet out 15 minutes.  I guess I want to find out if this seemingly small thing is a manipulation, executive failure, or just insignificant.

Am just wondering if these types of things are worth me working on...
how much of what goes on is part of bpd; part of something else; and what things deserve attention in the first place.?

I think all of us who are in or have been in these r/s have some sort of internal compass on this.
What I saw happening with me in the past,  was that more and more things got ignored, I had no boundaries to speak of. I got more and more upset, then I blew up.

In these last couple of years, because of the space, we aren't interacting on those levels to know now how it is for us., or how it would be.

Thank you.

[TRB]

I would defer to the more experienced people on this message board, but my own take on whether it is worthwhile to work on is: if it feels worthwhile to you, then it is worthwhile.   

That doesn't mean it will be "successful" in the sense of causing your person to change.  It just means not to sell yourself short by doing nothing because you don't consider your feelings to be valuable enough.

So many "little" things can actually be big.  Regarding the 15 minutes thing, if it doesn't feel like the same kind of boundary violation as some bigger ones, but you still want to work on it, can you think of a way to apply the Ross Rosenberg technique or the other one I mentioned in a softer way that you would feel comfortable with?  Maybe, "I really enjoy when we spend time together and I look forward to seeing you.  I've noticed that most of the time you're about 15 minutes late.  When that happens I feel sad waiting for you, and it leaves me feeling like I'm not that valuable to you."  Then pause and wait for the response.  Maybe the response would actually be positive.  If not, then you could shift into more of a boundary-setting mode, but still on the soft side, "If you're late like that, I know I will feel sad and it will affect how I feel while we're together.  I'd like to feel psyched to spend time with you and if you showed up on time I would be really happy and it would help me to feel good while we're together."

Of course if the lateness feels like more of a significant boundary violation to you, you could try something more clear.

And of course, if the response to your initial soft approach is explosive anger (which it might be), then you can be ready with your clear boundary-setting statements.  I can say that after many years I have learned not to be surprised when what I thought was a very soft and gentle request for connection is met with explosive anger and accusations.

The tough thing is that everyone's situation and person are different.  Does any of this sound helpful?

[juju2]

Yes.  It sounds helpful...

I guess I want to be in the now.
Just because this lateness has happened, may happen again, maybe I can see what it actually feels like should it happen again and go from there, then.

We do not have any recent things we cannot solve.  It's mostly the past bad things, that caused us to separate.
I cannot improve anything in the past.
I think both of us are treading lightly.

I would like to have some experiences where I felt heard and things improved.
I would like to know we are indeed in a better space.

I know I have grown and improved.  I do have that.  These last years have given me self awareness, other gifts.

I see areas he has improved: when we are together, he does not answer his cell.  If he needs to answer his phone, he asks me, would it be ok, it's my client (or someone he needs to talk to).  The new difference, is asking me.
 
 the other difference, is mostly not answering cell phone...this is good.  Before, cell phone was way too predominate.

[juju2]

(that caution was a typo)

[juju2]

Hi Trb

Was reading your posts.
So you are moving out.

In one of your posts you share all the things you have been thru together, including a long separation.

How long and how come you came back.
I am in the midst of a long separation and it's been difficult.
20 years is a long time and am just wondering how you are going to do it.

I am bringing this up because I never thought about unintended consequences and unforseen things I would miss.  I wasn't ready for the separation and three weeks later begged for him to come back and now it's going on 2.5 years.

I wish I had looked at other options.

Like you have two places to live.  It's not a separation...one place you will work at, say m-f and return on weekends ...

[TRB]

Hi Trb

Was reading your posts.
So you are moving out.

In one of your posts you share all the things you have been thru together, including a long separation.

How long and how come you came back.
I am in the midst of a long separation and it's been difficult.
20 years is a long time and am just wondering how you are going to do it.

I am bringing this up because I never thought about unintended consequences and unforseen things I would miss.  I wasn't ready for the separation and three weeks later begged for him to come back and now it's going on 2.5 years.

I wish I had looked at other options.

Like you have two places to live.  It's not a separation...one place you will work at, say m-f and return on weekends ...

Thanks for reaching out.  Although I have been in this relationship for 20+ years and have learned a lot, I have to remain humble and say I am still far from an expert.  I keep getting sucked back into my old habits in certain ways.  But every day I get a little better.

Some key things I have learned:

• My support network--I call them my "Advisory Board"--is key.  Because even if I think of a "perfect" separation strategy and set my mind to it, I am not yet able to stick to that plan over time without the regular support of others, who remind me of the plan, why I am doing it, and why I should not revert back to the old relationship.  I am getting better but am aware that I cannot do this on my own.  My childhood programming, and programming from this relationship, often ends up overriding my rational mind.
• I would caution you against some kind of dual living situation.  I have been doing that for 5+ years now, with some variations.  It has not worked for me, in large part because when my partner becomes enraged she will become violent or threaten violence, damage my property or threaten to damage my property, demand that I move out immediately, or herself move out for several days and then at some point come back.  For a while, I found it did help me to have a second place to go to for a few days in one of these situations.  However, now I have concluded that I need a living space that is solely mine--where she does not have a key to it and cannot access it, a place that is solely mine where I can be safe and have full control.  I literally just signed a lease on Friday for an apartment with a start date of May 1.  I will need time to move my stuff into it, etc., but it feels good!
• The other thing I have learned is that there have been several times when my partner and I have agreed to separate very cleanly.  Then, gradually, she starts talking about making the separation more fuzzy, like us sharing two places and spending Tuesday-Thursday together in one of them and living separately the rest of the time.  And sharing chores in the other place.  And... and the list starts growing.  What I have found is that my tendency to be agreeable and to want to please her and not trigger her rage, can cause me to start agreeing to these "small" changes.  And before I know it, I have agreed to basically living together in two places without any real separation or protection for myself.  I have had to practice a LOT of mindfulness and other skills, with a LOT of help from my support network on planning to expect my partner to do this so that I can spot it right away when it happens, and then stick to my guns.  Then I have to expect her to become enraged, or pour on the guilt tripping, or play the victim, etc.  This literally just happened again this morning.

As for our "long" separation.  It was about 3 months, so not really that long.  I agreed to enter couples counseling in an effort to see if we could make the relationship work.  We hired a therapist who specializes in "couples in crisis."  She has been doing it for a long time.  Almost immediately this therapist started pressuring me to move back in with my partner at least 2 days a week.  I pushed back hard.  The therapist said that if we lived apart full time, there was no way we could ever heal the relationship, that we needed to have at least some time living together to work on our relationship skills together.  So I agreed--maybe I should say "caved in" in retrospect.  Very shortly after moving back in together, it felt like we were back in the same old patterns.  Within a few months my partner started treating the therapist like she treats me, and the therapist quit!  She told my partner that she would not tolerate being insulted with rage, and that she thought my partner was ignoring her professional recommendations.

That was about three years ago.  I really regret having come back.

Since that time we have gone through THREE more couples therapists.  My partner stormed out of one and refused to come back.  Then I found us another who specializes in couples on the brink of divorce, and she also basically fired us after advising us to separate--she told my partner that unless she gets therapy that focuses specifically on the trauma that she suffered in her childhood, she will keep engaging in the same harmful behaviors with me.  My partner basically said she thinks the concept of "trauma" is bullPLEASE READ.  Then we went to one more therapist, who also said there was nothing she could do for us, and advised us to separate and to work with a mediator to iron out the financial and logistical details of a separation.

Obviously your situation may be different, and maybe you can make things work after your separation.  I'm just telling you that for me, looking back on it. I wish I had stuck to my guns and not moved back in after separating.  When we separated I felt like I had gained a lot of strength and felt very grounded for the first time in years.  My anxiety started to lift.  I was able to re-establish my own routines that worked for me.  Most of all, when we were fully separated, I did not live in fear of the rages, the name calling, the throwing things, and everything else.  It felt like a huge weight had been lifted from me.  I felt like I was returning to my old self.

Of course I can understand why I listened to that therapist who recommended that I move back in part-time.  But looking back on it, my willingness to do what someone else recommended to me, instead of listening to my own judgment, is a big part of why I have stayed in this relationship for so long even after it has been so unhealthy for so many years.

Maybe my other big learning is that I need to continue to be mindful every day and every minute while I am working on separating again, so that I don't let myself get sucked back in again.  It is so easy for me to get sucked back in when my partner is nice to me, and when I think about the real good times that we did have in the early years.  OK, I have leased the apartment, and my partner has said that she understands that this is my decision.  But for now we are still living together and every day my partner makes efforts to try to get me to change my mind.  I am practicing being extremely aware of my own tendency to cave in to my partner, to let her judgment override my own, especially when she gets sad and tells me with tears how much she loves me and wants things to work out.  It triggers deep guilt in me.  That is when I need to be mindful and not let my guilt override my best judgment.  I have done that countless times before and it has not been healthy for me.  One thing that helps is to remind myself of the "cycle of abuse" that has now happened so many times in our relationship.  It reminds me that these short periods of caring are inevitably followed by real abuse that violates my boundaries.

There are some great videos out there by Ross Rosenberg specifically on what to expect when you try to break up with a person on the narcissistic spectrum (which includes BPD).  Also some by Lisa A. Romano and Meredith Miller.  What I like about the Ross Rosenberg ones is that he is extremely blunt and does not pull any punches.  He lists all of the tactics that your partner will use once you make clear that you are leaving, and he prepares you for just how difficult it will be to stick to your plan under those circumstances.  I have made a YouTube playlist of the best videos and I literally cycle through watching them every morning and evening (my partner and I no longer sleep in the same bedroom).  I wish I didn't need that much repetition, but I have found that my own codependent programming is so strong that I need to be reminded over and over again how to take care of myself and not sacrifice myself to my partner in this situation.

If it helps, I do feel like I have learned so much through this process and have gained an incredible amount of strength.  This time around I am feeling confident that I will be able to stick with my separation plan and not to cave in, while still being compassionate for my partner--I know she is going through her own pain, and that she is unable to face up to the abusive childhood that contributed significantly to her own unhealthy ways of interacting with me.  When I first read that BPD is believed to result from a child who is highly emotionally sensitive being exposed to parents who are abusive or not responsive to the child's needs, that fit my partner exactly.  She didn't ask to be this way and doesn't deserve it.  So I can be compassionate for her.  What I am working on now is not letting that compassion lead me to tolerate intolerable behavior towards me.

The other thing my support network is preparing me for is to expect that the separation process will bring up a lot of extremely hard feelings for me, including even leading to PTSD.  I think I am ready for this, and at least I am preparing myself not to cave in on separating just because it leads me to feel very sad or have other difficult feelings.  "The only way out is through."  I think I didn't always realize that, or I caved in on separating in order to avoid having to face my own painful feelings.  I am committed to moving through my feelings this time, rather than running away from them.

It sounds like we are both in similar situations.  I hope this is helpful.  Also, I know we are all on our own paths and you are doing to need to do what is best for you.  Peace and strength to you!

[juju2]

well TRB you sound prepared.

I wish you the best on your journey...

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I keep seeing the good parts, and I see where I was failing (w gambling addiction and co dependency), and where we both were failing. 
During our time living together I had no working knowledge or tools around bpd.
That was another miss.

So we are in a slow process to reaquaint ourselves to see if there is anything remaining.  He has done a lot of work on himself in 12 step.  I have done a lot of work also, and I will have 3 years free of gambling addiction in 3 days.

So we are better people.  And I don't know what is going to happen.

[TRB]

well TRB you sound prepared.

I wish you the best on your journey...

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I keep seeing the good parts, and I see where I was failing (w gambling addiction and co dependency), and where we both were failing. 
During our time living together I had no working knowledge or tools around bpd.
That was another miss.

So we are in a slow process to reaquaint ourselves to see if there is anything remaining.  He has done a lot of work on himself in 12 step.  I have done a lot of work also, and I will have 3 years free of gambling addiction in 3 days.

So we are better people.  And I don't know what is going to happen.

Congratulations on all the work you have done.

We all have our own issues.  One thing I have struggled with is the tendency to think, "I've got my own problems, so what right do I have to leave?"  What I have realized, or decided for myself, is that I don't need to make myself perfect before I can leave a relationship.  I have the right to leave if the relationship does not feel healthy to me, and I am the only judge of what feels healthy to me.  I can leave even if I still have my own problems that I need to work on--and I have many!  However, this has been a really tough one for me.  Guilt is very strong in me.  When I think of leaving, and then remember my own problems, I feel strong guilt.  And my partner knows how to pull on my guilt strings very well.

Practicing mindfulness and having my support network has been extremely helpful for dealing with this.  One thing I keep remembering (or being reminded of in this way) is that if I feel guilt, that is a feeling to pay attention to, but I don't need to let it control my decisions.  I can choose whether to let the guilt keep me in the relationship even if it isn't healthy to me, or I can choose to leave and feel the guilt, and then deal with my feelings of guilt.

I was not raised to know how to feel a feeling like guilt and not be controlled by it.  My whole family is controlled by guilt and I learned that playbook.  Looking back, I can see how much I have been controlled by my own feelings of guilt, and feelings of responsibility for other people's actions and feelings.

I can admire that both you and your partner are working on your own issues.  That is very encouraging.  In my own relationship, there have been times when it seemed to me that my pwBPD was working hard on her own problems.  That encouraged me to stick with it.  So I can see why you are motivated and I hope it works out for you.  In my own situation, over the last couple of years I have seen my partner move in a steady direction of blaming me for what is wrong in our relationship, and not taking responsibility for her own role.  As a result, she is not actively working on changing her own behavior.  Ultimately that is what has led me to make the decisions I am making now.  But I realize everyone's situation is different, and that life is full of surprises and that many things can develop and change in ways that we don't expect.

[TRB]

Juju2: One more question--has your partner been diagnosed with BPD?  Or at least acknowledged it in some way?  I am curious.

My own partner has not been diagnosed, and also has strongly rejected the possibility, even though it has been suggested to her by therapists.  I have never used the term BPD with her myself because I assumed it would not be helpful.  But I have pointed out specific behavior patterns to her.  She has acknowledged some of them but not others.  Her lack of openness to acknowledging the reality of her own wiring is another factor in my decision to leave.  I just don't see how things could work out if she keeps reacting to her feelings in the way she has done her whole life, but does not have an awareness that this is what she is doing, and therefore won't take action.

[juju2]

Diagnosed over 10 years ago, disability benefits.

And then he said 2 years ago his current pcp said he didn't have it any more...