What. I didn't handle it well - Part 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344025.0Short explanation.  Cookie jar.
before integrity.  If no one sees me, it's ok.

After integrity.

That's hard.

What are my core values.  Who am I in this situation.
is eating one cookie aligning with I am trying to lose weight...

(This may be a long explanation, and it's fill in the blank instead of cookie jar.)

I mean it's about living my core values, nothing is automatic for me.

If something is automatic, it's probably from the past and I need to look at it!

[juju2]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344025.0Short explanation.  Cookie jar.
before integrity.  If no one sees me, it's ok.

After integrity.

That's hard.

What are my core values.  Who am I in this situation.
is eating one cookie aligning with I am trying to lose weight...

(This may be a long explanation, and it's fill in the blank instead of cookie jar.)

I mean it's about living my core values, nothing is automatic for me.

If something is automatic, it's probably from the past and I need to look at it!

[formflier]

So...do you want us to understand that "integrity" is a pliable concept to you that can be adjusted to fit a situation?

I may be reading/understanding it in a way you don't want it understood.

With something so important as "integrity", wouldn't it be important to be crystal clear.

Best,

FF

[juju2]

all I am sharing is my own personal journey.

Each person has their own path and it's not my path.

As I know better, I can do better, to quote a famous talk show host.

you may understand what you want or do not want.

I am not in charge of that.

[formflier]

Let's get back to my question. 

Do you believe integrity is a malleable/eye of the beholder type of thing?  Please share your personal journey on this particular issue.

Best,

FF

[juju2]

Official no answer.

I shared

Am not amenable to "you " questions.

I will not ask or show or direct anyone's reasoning.

I gave. I shared.

As a---p.s.  I am sorry today was hard.  Read f f post.

[juju2]

sorry.  Hit caution key by mistake.

[formflier]

He doesn't see that it's his choices making a bad experience for himself.
 

This is often...most of the time...hard for people to see.  I'm so pleased that you see it.

You know the situation best, how would you go about "nudging" to "consider the possibility" that choices influence outcomes?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

That's a disappointing answer, since  I'm positive many others would benefit from "following along" on your journey.  From being able to "connect the dots" on how you got from thinking about integrity (or not) to where you are now (which is unclear)

I'll respect (as I hope others will) that there is discomfort discussing details of integrity on an anonymous message board, much in the same way details of the status of physical intimacy is off the table.

Are you open to discussing the underlying feelings/values that contributed to those decisions?

Best,

FF

[juju2]

Thank you f f.

My experience yesterday, was he is completely shut off, from me, painting me black.

He was digging through boxes, it was like wow, do I even know this person.

He is in recovery and all the meetings are online now, which is really really hard.

I am praying for him and limiting my exposure to him.  In the state of mind I witnessed yesterday, he is in a bad, closed, shut down space.  What I saw was him blaming me.  He blames me for his lifestyle.  All his treasured things are in a disheveled mess at my house.
There is no addressing this, no jade.

I did say, I made a mistake.  I asked you to come back. 
There is no getting anywhere.  There is nothing to do until he loses the juice out of making me wrong (painting black)

We are supposed to see each other on Monday.

Thank you.

[formflier]

There is nothing to do until he loses the juice out of making me wrong (painting black)

Please experience this as FF ever so gently suggesting he is not painting you black. 

Did he explicitly say this?  My understanding is this is from "reading" his face and other "signals".

I would suggest his feelings are much  MUCH more complex and changeable than painting black.

Hmmm...I wonder if you would pause that thought for a moment and go on a journey with me?  I like Star Trek.  (all of them but New Generation is my fav)

They often go to "alternate universes" and "alternate timelines".  It really gets you thinking about things.

So...travel with me...imagine with me...what if yesterday was just about your relationship with him?  Nothing else...no details...no searching...no (fill in the blank).

Two people sharing...hanging out.

What would that day have looked like from your perspective?

Best,

FF

[juju2]

You mean taking away all of my judging and assessing.

Two people deal with stuff.

Trying to find a 12.99 tool in a mountain of boxes.

So other than nothing positive. 

It was two people trying to help and not being successful.

Those two will meet up again on Monday...

Star Trek over.  Here is the commercial break:
I will say that I have gotten better at reading him.  So the star trek while fun, is not true irl.

(There are only so many assumptions I can make about people I do not know.)


So at some point, all I do have are my experiences.

If i cannot trust my experiences--
I will be at a loss.

I am trying to be more aware, related to the present, and awake.

[juju2]

what.

So hey.

At no point is anyone's boundaries on the table.

I am being asked what is meant by x,y,z. 

That to me is pressure.  If someone wants to interpret anything I say, that is theirs.
It's not my job to do any work for another person.

If i say, "what is the sound of one hand clapping.  It's the sound of one hand clapping."

That one share is complete, perfect, in every way.  It is what was there for me, complete. 

Now, what the heck does it mean.?
I do not have a clue.  It is up to me to do the work.  Or not.  Who cares about one hand clapping.

Next topic.

I am being asked are you having physical intimacy. 

Again, in my world.  It's a private issue.

It isn't helpful TO ME to gave my personal life about.  Out there.

[juju2]

p.s.  am looking for the moderator help button.

it means I am looking for the moderator help button.

[juju2]

What I share, what anyone shares, is complete, perfect, in every way.

The question on integrity.

I don't know if it is pliable.  It is changing.
It is being constantly Upgraded if you will.

Am I having physical intimacy.

How does violating my personal boundaries help anyone.  Who here knows me, and needs to know this type of information.

If someone will answer if they know me personally and it is of great need to know, then we can look into this further.

For me it is the opposite of help.

[formflier]

  Who here knows me, and needs to know this type of information.

Broadly speaking.  We are talking about and giving advice on relationships.  Physical intimacy is part of some relationships.  Usually it's a big part.

For others to properly understand the relationship dynamics at play, it would seem wise to understand all the dynamics at play.

It would seem to me to be that a  relationship with brief hugging (or perhaps none) compared to "heavy petting"...compared to "no holds barred sex"...compared to polyamorous...compared to group sex...(I could go on), would be very different.

None of us wants to judge those activities as right or wrong, but it's perfectly appropriate to say there are likely different emotional connections at play with each of those different scenarios.

Then...is each party ok with the level of physical intimacy?  Do they want more...or less?

I hope you can see that this question is relevant.

Best,

FF

[juju2]

so what is being again, and again, and again asked and already shared, it's a boundary issue.

Again asked.

So at this point I ask myself.  Do I want to be subject to this type of treatment.
My well being, my stated boundaries, in the name of all that is important to ME.

Is being repeatedly voileted in the name of, well, it's helpful for US.

That's messed up and I am leaving this site.

I am a hurting person and my boundaries are being repeatedly ignored.

I do get that you and others want to know
.in the name of its helpful.

I get it.  I get it.  I get it!

Do you all value boundaries.

[juju2]

All of this goes back to integrity question.

What was shared.  X,y,z.

One hand clapping.

WAS. NOT ACCEPTED as it was.  Complete and perfect share.

Ask one, two questions.

Fine.

Again.answers to questions NOT ACCEPTED as perfect and complete.

There is a need for a group inventory on this board.

This board is crossing important boundaries, and there is important work to be done here.

There is a culture of personalities here.

I hope you all will look at this.

[formflier]

I am a hurting person and my boundaries are being repeatedly ignored.
 

I'm sorry you are hurting, we are here for you.  The truth is  your boundary wasn't again ignored.

You asked a perfectly reasonable question to gain better understanding of the reasons why we normally ask about intimacy.  I was addressing that particular question, not asking again about your intimate status with your pwBPD.

Please experience my communication in the way I intended it and explained it above, not as asking a question.

Again...I'm sorry you are hurting.  Please be kind to yourself today.

Best,

FF

[juju2]

Thank you ff.

If someone would read my shared story, all I shared is we meet up for coffee---on the porch---or at a coffee shop.

the locations shared really does answer a lot of questions.

So I give up.

I will be kind and I will be kind to everyone I know and those I don't know.

Thank you.

[formflier]

Not ask any questions and maybe work on myself some more.

 

I'm curious about the not asking questions thing.  Are there issues to clarify and solve?

Best,

FF

[juju2]

Yes ff.

I was told that he would be alone soon, ie.
no roommate.  That was a falsehood.
4 weeks ago or so, it was going to be in 4-6 weeks.

now the covid.  He has said it's not reasonable to ask her to move during covid. Then she may get laid off...etc.

I was asking for if there is an expectation I could have that would be reasonable...around this issue.  He said soon.  He said she has to go. (Still no actual time frame.  So there is something not right and it isn't my battle.)

Now it seems like a black hole and I don't know that it is even appropriate that I ask any questions on his living arrangements..

..and what I may end up doing is not meeting every week, if it looks like there is really no direction.

I just got a new sponsor, in my 12 step.  We were catching up, her and I go to some of the same meetings, it's has been a while since we talked.  Like 6 months.
She said it must be hard for you because you are waiting for someone and you have no idea how long.  You are closing off all other possibilities for yourself.

Yes.  All true.

I guess I am just sharing.

 because there is no action I am ready to take nor do I even know what action it would be.

What there is for me is to immerse my self in my program, meet with my sponsor and I have faith that a direction or signs will be provided.
Sometimes it is just a light that shows the next foothold.

[formflier]

 because there is no action I am ready to take nor do I even know what action it would be.

 

Please experience the following post as a "splash of cool water" and not harsh.  I'm going to plainly say some things.

You could let him know  you want a relationship with him and that he should reach out when he has sorted out the details of his life to be with you. 

Then you go on living your life until he does that.

Right now he has NO INCENTIVE to change his life.  He gets his cake, eats it too. 

From a guy's point of view there is very little chance he will change, because he does not have to.

Please repeat that a couple of times. 

Please take note that a sponsor you just got pretty much made the same observations that others have been making to you for YEARS.

If he is not going to change (which he isn't), then it's up to you to change if you want the situation to change. 

All the rest of the details here about tools, coffee, plans, what he said or didn't say are distractions.

Best,

FF

[juju2]

yes.  All good points.

I need to talk to my sponsor more, which I will do this weekend.

Thank you for reaching out.

[juju2]

so ff you are 100 percent right.

Our 10 plus years living together was mostly good, and not so good.  I had untreated co dependency (over doing, not able to express my self, my needs, many other things, ) and untreated problem gambling.
He had financial, and other, irresponsibility...
He has BPD.  Sometimes he knows this, other times he says he is cured, like when he got a new pcp, after one meeting, after a 20 year diagnosis and disability, she said, you don't have it anymore!  3 years ago.

So progress is not linear and i am not a fan of getting into a rocket ship.


Gambling is over, I will have 3 years free in 14 days!  I am currently in a program for co dependents.  So who I am now is not who I was when we lived together.  Who he is now is not someone I know...

Having weekly meet ups helps us both get to know who we are now...i was FOR the meet ups.

Anyway my Higher Power, my sponsor, and me will be working on this.

No fast movements. 

I can hear your wheels turning--ff---YEARS.

I already heard it.

And, just so you know, things have been moving.  Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.

All of this i am sharing to give a glimpse into my mindset and what is up with me..

[formflier]

Having weekly meet ups helps us both get to know who we are now....i was FOR the meet ups.

No they don't.

If you guys had actual..real..no holds barred conversations...perhaps.

There is a big difference in discussing relationship issues and matching up words and actions and getting together to look for lost items.

Here is one of the many issues.  As long as I've known you a constant theme is that you don't believe you can/should ask him questions. 

That leads to not getting to know him...and some surface conversations...and other tangential details.
 

I already heard it.
 

And have done what with the consistent information that many people from many walks of life are telling you?

Does that give you any "pause" at all that perhaps Juju2 has been going in an unproductive direction and should consider the possibility of doing something dramatically different?


Best,

FF

[juju2]

No.

Listen.  I Am not here to convince you.  You already know everything.

I haven't ever heard you say, I don't know.

I cannot and will not manipulate this other person.

I do ask.  I was upset because I was told one thing and it wasn't true.

Anyway.  You shared.  I heard you.

I get it, you know

I know that you know.

Thank you very much you have been heard.

I know you would do things differently.

Tell me what you did when you were separated from your live in love.

[juju2]

I apologize.  I posted.

It's my fault.

I have a program and I follow that.

I appreciate what everyone wants for me. 
I want a r/s and am seeking the best way. 

I have tried ultimatums.

It's not to say I won't try that again.

Thank you everyone for your experience in this matter.

Thank you.  I will move on to a different topic or not.  For me this topic is closed.

[formflier]

I cannot and will not manipulate this other person.

I'm not aware of anyone...ANYONE...that has suggested or even hinted that you should manipulate your pwBPD.

I am aware of others and I have said before...and I will say again that I think you are being manipulated.

I'm sad for you that there is a reluctance to try a different path.  I'm sad for you because I agree with your sponsor (and many others that have said the same thing) that you are closing yourself off to other possibilities.


Best,

FF

[juju2]

Ff.

I know you are sincere.

There are moving parts.

Progress not perfection.

We ( sponsor, Higher Power, and me)
are going to work on this. Saturday or Sunday.  It may be that I will give an ultimatum.

Everything is on the table.  My sponsor Has experience with separation, her spouse up and left her for a time.  He said it was over.  They both came back together and so I want to hear from her and that is what we are going to do.  I promise.  Thank you from the bottom of my heart.  juju

It will be ok.  I appreciate truly your efforts.