He threatened violence. But in fear?

[blue_watermelon]

Man, I am still figuring this out.

Learned husband was BPD less than a year ago. He doesn't know, but for me, reading and thinking about BPD REALLY helped with my own ability to process what was going on. We went through some really rough patches, then for about three months this year, things were noticeably better. Husband made a commitment to try limit his huge blow up fights and extreme behavior to less than once a month.

Well over the past 24 hours, two things that I see as triggers from his childhood cropped up (fear over access to necessary medication and not being "heard"). For H this leads to a place of deep fear. Repeat of previous scenario in our relationship when, talking with both H and my dad, I tried to listen and talk to my Dad who is a little deaf at the same time my H is trying to talk to me. I am then accused by H of showing loyalty to my parents over him. Repeatedly, H has now asked me to "leave with C (our toddler) and live at XX -my parent's house". I said to him in reply, "You're just testing me. I know your true self doesn't want me to leave, most of the time you are crazy about me". He replies "No, I'm not testing you and you are disobeying me". He screams at me that I "am always disloyal and never listen".

H gathers food, alcohol and computer and says he is going to live in the other side of the house for a week and not see me for this time (or, by implication our son). I don't know if I should have done this, but I say to him, "99% of our marriage is not like this. This is not your true self. Tomorrow or the next day, or maybe next week you will admit that you overreacted and that you love me". I'm not sure, but I think I see some consciousness in his face that he recognizes some truth in this.

Later however, when we are in the kitchen and he is gathering food, I make a comment about the extra cleaning I am going to have to do owing to his decisions. This was certainly a bad move, and probably comes out my unspoken resentment about his inability to use a vacuum or clean in any way beyond using a dishwasher. I think I was just vainly hopeful he would still amend his course of action and I wouldn't have to do the cleaning! But at this particular comment, H explodes and says "If you say another word, this won't just be a fight it will be a divorce or it will be domestic violence".

At this I pause. I don't want to act like threats of violence are ok. So I say "threatening domestic violence is not ok". At this his whole body explodes, arms wave above his head, he yells as though at a sporting match and his whole body shakes. "SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!". At that point I think he is not threatening violence to manipulate me, I think he is genuinely afraid of his own inability to control himself. Our little toddler, thankfully on this occasion, just looks confused and not too scared. I am scared however.  He has never been violent. But I don't know if I should be worried.

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[I Am Redeemed]

Hi.

I can see why you would be worried. Even if he has never been violent, it certainly sounds like he is struggling to control himself. I think giving him space at this time would be very wise.

It throws up a red flag for me that he told you that you were "disobeying" him. Does he expect you to do what he tells you to do whenever he tells you to do it? That can be a characteristic of an abusive person.

I know you mean well, but telling him that he doesn't really feel the way he feels is likely not a good idea when he is dysregulated in the moment. It can be invalidating and actually add fuel to the fire. For a person who has BPD, feelings=facts and it is not a good idea to tell them "you don't really mean that" because in the moment, what they feel is the truth to them. It can escalate the situation.

Have you considered taking steps to make a safety plan in case he does exhibit some violent behavior?

Here is a link to more information on a safety plan:
Safety First

Domestic violence comes in many forms. Take a look at this link to see some of the ways it can manifest:

Duluth Model

You always have the option to contact a DV hotline just for information. It is anonymous and you can ask questions about what you are experiencing and get some input on the level of risk you might be facing. www.thehotline.org

[Butane]

Hi blue_matermelon,

You told this story really clearly. I feel like I was there! Also, my H has behaved similarly...

Learned husband was BPD less than a year ago. He doesn't know

Your husband doesn't know? Does that mean you concluded he has BPD from your own research, or that a therapist has evaluated him, but not formally diagnosed him?

In my case, I believe my H has BPD traits, along with his formal diagnosis of PTSD.

Well over the past 24 hours, two things that I see as triggers from his childhood cropped up (fear over access to necessary medication and not being "heard").

My H has said/yelled at me MANY times that "I just want to be HEARD!". I believe this is a deep childhood fear as well. He grew up in an unstable, invalidating household.

He screams at me that I "am always disloyal and never listen".

"You ALWAYS..." along with "You never" are things my H says when dysregulated. I still want so badly to defend myself against these black and white statements. It never works.

H gathers food, alcohol and computer and says he is going to live in the other side of the house for a week and not see me for this time (or, by implication our son). I don't know if I should have done this, but I say to him, "99% of our marriage is not like this. This is not your true self. Tomorrow or the next day, or maybe next week you will admit that you overreacted and that you love me". I'm not sure, but I think I see some consciousness in his face that he recognizes some truth in this.

When I have said things similar to what you did, above, I have seen a look on his face that I perceive as "Oh, crap, I am over-reacting but I can't control it!"

Later however, when we are in the kitchen and he is gathering food, I make a comment about the extra cleaning I am going to have to do owing to his decisions. This was certainly a bad move, and probably comes out my unspoken resentment about his inability to use a vacuum or clean in any way beyond using a dishwasher. I think I was just vainly hopeful he would still amend his course of action and I wouldn't have to do the cleaning! But at this particular comment, H explodes and says "If you say another word, this won't just be a fight it will be a divorce or it will be domestic violence".

I feel like this is probably just an angry outburst due to poor impulse control. BUT, I feel you need to monitor the situation carefully, and agree that you need to make a plan if threats or more happen again

At this I pause. I don't want to act like threats of violence are ok. So I say "threatening domestic violence is not ok". At this his whole body explodes, arms wave above his head, he yells as though at a sporting match and his whole body shakes. "SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!". At that point I think he is not threatening violence to manipulate me, I think he is genuinely afraid of his own inability to control himself. Our little toddler, thankfully on this occasion, just looks confused and not too scared. I am scared however.  He has never been violent. But I don't know if I should be worried.

[once removed]

I know you mean well, but telling him that he doesn't really feel the way he feels is likely not a good idea when he is dysregulated in the moment. It can be invalidating and actually add fuel to the fire.

bpd traits are a part of his real self. he does that feel that way.

he feels it in extremely strong ways. and he may also doubt it. and it may also be an overstatement in the moment that has to do with other problems/insecurities in the relationship. and it also may be that he takes it back in the next moment, but struggles internally in ways youll never see. and sometimes it may be that he just really feels that way.

regardless, dont dismiss this stuff. listen with empathy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy) in ways you never have before.

if you were my girlfriend, and you were jealous of my conversations with another girl, and i told you "you dont really think anything is going on here, youre just pathologically jealous and youll be over it later and youll start cuddling with me", i might be missing the point, significantly.

[blue_watermelon]

Hi everyone, thank you for your helpful replies.
It is now a month later and we have been through the same cycle twice.  (Husband claims I put my parents before him, he has loud outburst and enters state where he disappears in the house for a few days, staying silent except to emerge and act in a manipulative manner) There has not been a second threat of violence but there have been demands for divorce, demands I leave the house and move to another part of the state, and what I find the worst -- threats about access to my son. For example, husband just left the house saying 'I'm going to ask the baby sitter to come here 8 hours a day because you are toxic to our son and cannot spend time with him".  He also said as he slammed the door, "I'm finally pulling rank". He often accuses me of wanting to be "the man" in the relationship. The latest episode follows his birthday on the weekend, which I and my parents worked hard to make special for him. And my husband said repeatedly it was the "best birthday he ever had" which is great. But now he has been in his angry place for three days. One of the main triggers is that we were having a conversation and I took a phone call from my dad without checking it was ok with my husband first. I have tried to explain I would have been happy to say "Sorry, do you mind if I take this call?" to him, but I just didn't think to do that.  Husband believes it is a crystal clear sign of my inner disloyalty.

I am Redeemed,
Thanks for your helpful reply. I really appreciate it. I believe I need to do a better job of internally telling myself the truth about the situation, rather than speaking it out loud. You are right, he really does feel that way, I need to not try and tell my husband how he feels. I will try and listen with empathy. I will think about the safety plan. My husband and I are christians and hold to a Biblical view of marriage. That does add an extra burden in this respect, in that I do want to show support to my husband through respect and submitting to his leadership. But I don't want to allow this christian commitment to allow him to manipulate me to act against my conscience or do things that are not good for either of us. I'm having a really difficult time parsing it out.

Butane,
Thank you for your great reply. It was really helpful to hear about your experiences which are similar. My husband has a formal diagnosis of PTSD, depression and anxiety. As far as I know, he does not know about the BPD. He is high functioning BDP. It was our marriage councillor who recognized his BPD and told me privately. At this stage, I don't believe telling my husband would be helpful for him. My husband also grew up in an unstable, invalidating household (and in his case, violent). Yes, it is so hard not to defend myself. I haven't been doing a good job lately, today for example, at one point I lost my cool and yelled back at him. Thank you again.

[Butane]

There has not been a second threat of violence but there have been demands for divorce, demands I leave the house and move to another part of the state, and what I find the worst -- threats about access to my son. For example, husband just left the house saying 'I'm going to ask the baby sitter to come here 8 hours a day because you are toxic to our son and cannot spend time with him".  He also said as he slammed the door, "I'm finally pulling rank".

Hi blue_watermelon,

I literally teared up a bit when you said your H also has a formal dx of PTSD in addition to BPD traits. It's so helpful to know that I'm not the only one living with these difficulties.

Your H's phrases just "sound like" BPD-speak. The word "toxic" is so dramatic isn't it? I was "toxic" for a while myself... later H's former mistress became the "toxic" one, and I became the one he wanted to have a "healthy relationship with".

"I'm finally pulling rank!"... when I read this I perceive your H saying he feels like he has no control, no say, that he is a victim, and that he is "finally" doing something about it. It is drama triangle language. In his mind, he has been the victim. Now he's not going to take it any more. He flips into persecutor mode. Is the drama triangle familiar to you? It has been a very helpful concept for me.

It sounds like your H lives on the drama triangle, at least some of the time.

He often accuses me of wanting to be "the man" in the relationship.

My guess is this translates to "I feel like I have no control, you don't agree with me, you don't do what I say etc..."
As Covid drags on, my own H is getting more and more stressed. His need to feel in control is getting higher. I wonder if your H is also getting more and more stressed inside. People with PTSD tend to have angry outbursts (as you know), where they can say quite ugly and dramatic things that they later "forget" or minimize. What you said about the birthday, I think, illustrates that:

The latest episode follows his birthday … my husband said repeatedly it was the "best birthday he ever had" which is great. But now he has been in his angry place for three days. One of the main triggers …. I have tried to explain I would have been happy to say "Sorry, do you mind if I take this call?" to him, but I just didn't think to do that.  Husband believes it is a crystal clear sign of my inner disloyalty.

I highlighted "explain" because you JADEed him. Do you know what that is yet?
If you feel a little crazy after the best b-day morphed into proof of your disloyalty, I don't blame you. The situations vary, but the pattern of behaviour is like my H.   

I am Redeemed,
Thanks for your helpful reply. I really appreciate it. I believe I need to do a better job of internally telling myself the truth about the situation, rather than speaking it out loud. You are right, he really does feel that way, I need to not try and tell my husband how he feels. I will try and listen with empathy. I will think about the safety plan. My husband and I are christians and hold to a Biblical view of marriage. That does add an extra burden in this respect, in that I do want to show support to my husband through respect and submitting to his leadership. But I don't want to allow this christian commitment to allow him to manipulate me to act against my conscience or do things that are not good for either of us. I'm having a really difficult time parsing it out.

I worry about your word "submitting". Respecting your husband does not mean submitting. This is especially problematic when you submit to a disordered person. People have different views when it comes to religion, so I don't wish to criticize. I will tell you my view though... I believe God wants us to take responsibility for our own selves, to build each other up and create loving families where all members are accepted and influenced but not controlled.

My family, including my husband, NEED me to be the leader. Not an old fashioned authoritarian dictator who tells everyone what to do and they obey (this would be my H's preferred style as it would lessen stress for him big-time, if it only would work!). The problem in this creates misery in the family.

The leadership I'm talking about includes:
- setting the tone of the household each day
- managing the household so that when H is struggling, the kids are out of the line of fire and many conflicts are avoided
- learning and applying all the behaviour skills this site, and many books offer
- taking over most child rearing and household jobs
- recovering quickly from "episodes" myself, because it takes H a long time to get re-regulated
- practicing radical acceptance

Can you see how you, as the spouse who does not have a serious mental disorder, must be the quiet, strong leader of your family?

… formal diagnosis of PTSD, depression and anxiety. As far as I know, he does not know about the BPD. He is high functioning BDP. It was our marriage councillor who recognized his BPD and told me privately. At this stage, I don't believe telling my husband would be helpful for him.

I agree. My H has said a few times to me, while dysregulated, "And I'm NOT borderline !%^$**! You're the one with the problems etc... *%&%^$%!

I never mention it to him anymore. I do let him know that I'm working on my own emotion regulation and skills, and that I see he is as well.  In his case, the extended family believes his mom was uBPD.

[blue_watermelon]

Hi Butane,

Thank you for this super helpful reply. It has stuck with me and is helping me in a tough spot. You are absolutely right that I JADEd my husband. Things are not going well right now and I'm struggling myself. I needed the reminder that JADE will not help.

I was inspired about what you said, about how to be the strong person in the relationship for H and family.

"The leadership I'm talking about includes:
- setting the tone of the household each day
- managing the household so that when H is struggling, the kids are out of the line of fire and many conflicts are avoided
- learning and applying all the behaviour skills this site, and many books offer
- taking over most child rearing and household jobs
- recovering quickly from "episodes" myself, because it takes H a long time to get re-regulated
- practicing radical acceptance"[/color]

---I am not there yet but I would like to be. I accepted that most of the child and house jobs would be mine early in the marriage. I want to protect our son from my husband's episodes but I don't yet know how to keep him out of the line of fire. Sometimes my husband is so depressed he doesn't notice anything, but other times he is quite controlling regarding our son. Recovering quickly from episodes is something I'm finding harder right now. And it might be that both H and I are struggling with mental health during this time.


Even though things are not going well right now, I am trying to take steps to work on myself and care for my own mental health. I believe this is what I need in order to not JADE and be strong for my husband and son. Right now, I realizing that I have been internalizing too many of my husband's accusations about myself. I feel too much guilt for being a bad wife, a bad listener and a bad friend to him. I am moreover, allowing him to use our son to hurt me. I need to be able to NOT BELIEVE husband's lies about me, without speaking the truth back to his face in a way that aggravates the situation. That's hard because I'm still clearing my mind regarding what is true.

Two days ago for example, after the baby sitter left, my husband announced, "You are no longer allowed alone with our son, you cannot be trusted. I will monitor you 24/7 with him". Until our son went to bed my husband then followed us into every room, and every now and then would take out his phone and record "evidence" of my bad parenting, using a low voice-over, "See how messy she keeps her house. . . see how her son turns away from her in fear. . . see how little she cares about him. . . I am keeping this record for a future divorce". Of course the whole thing was really silly but I was hurt to the core. It crippled me to be stalked around the house and commented on in that way about my dedicated care for my son and I broke down weeping and begged him to stop. So I really need to work on my response when husband is attempting to use our son to emotionally get a reaction out of me.

I need to work on radical acceptance, detaching with love, not creating a crisis, not suffering because of husband's words and actions and finding a way to practice self care and restore hope.

[once removed]

I need to be able to NOT BELIEVE husband's lies about me, without speaking the truth back to his face in a way that aggravates the situation.

you need to be able to understand, underneath it all, what hes really saying. this is one of the greatest challenges we face as romantic partners.

you have to learn to step back and look at it from a detached, less emotional place, realize there may be kernels of truth, separate the distortions from those kernels, and respond in a mature way. it wont happen over night...we can help with that.

example: lets say that you and i are close friends. lets say that you and i havent spoken in a while, and then we do, and you spend some of the time talking about how you and a new friend are getting on.

a reasonable place to come from might be that i wish we spent more time talking about our friendship...yours and mine. maybe i feel that that friendship is replacing ours. maybe im especially sad over the fact that you and i havent spoken in a while.

with BPD, and BPD traits, you might have that reasonable place, but you are less inclined to get the reasonable response.

maybe your loved one goes silent on you, ostensibly to withdraw and protect themselves from the threat of you preferring someone else, but maybe also to test your loyalty and see if you respond.

or maybe they tell you that youre the worst person in the world and youre abandoning them like everyone else in their lives.

the trick isnt to respond to the distortions. its to understand, at the end of the day, where they are really coming from, and learn to respond in a mature way, that helps matters more than hurts.

[Butane]

I was inspired about what you said, about how to be the strong person in the relationship for H and family.
---
I am not there yet but I would like to be. I accepted that most of the child and house jobs would be mine early in the marriage.
---
 And it might be that both H and I are struggling with mental health during this time.

Wondering why you accepted most of the child and house jobs? Was this planned as a traditional division of duties, or did you accept these duties because he wasn't willing / able?

I can appreciate that you are BOTH struggling with mental health at this time, however I don't think you should " equalize" your struggles, given this: 

Two days ago for example, after the baby sitter left, my husband announced, "You are no longer allowed alone with our son, you cannot be trusted. I will monitor you 24/7 with him". Until our son went to bed my husband then followed us into every room, and every now and then would take out his phone and record "evidence" of my bad parenting, using a low voice-over, "See how messy she keeps her house. . . see how her son turns away from her in fear. . . see how little she cares about him. . . I am keeping this record for a future divorce".

WHAT? This is crazy-making! My H never did this exact thing, but the level of disordered thinking and behaviors is very familiar. When it was happening at its worst, I felt like a crazy, worthless person . I don't want you to think this is only a little abnormal.

Of course the whole thing was really silly...
I broke down weeping and begged him to stop.

I've been to the point of weeping and begging my H to stop many times, only with different behaviors. I was so weakened, and it allowed him to run over me and use me a dumping ground for his bad feelings. This is verbal and emotional abuse. I hope that "the next day", when the crisis is over, you don't make excuses that minimize things because he is struggling mentally. The more he is able to get away with verbal and emotional abuse, the more it will happen.

I need to work on radical acceptance, detaching with love, not creating a crisis, not suffering because of husband's words and actions and finding a way to practice self care and restore hope.

[blue_watermelon]

Hi Once Removed,

Yes, thank you for this, "you need to be able to understand, underneath it all, what he's really saying. this is one of the greatest challenges we face as romantic partners. . . . you have to learn to step back and look at it from a detached, less emotional place, realize there may be kernels of truth, separate the distortions from those kernels, and respond in a mature way." This is a really great practical process to remember. Step back, be detached and separate distortions from kernels of truth. My default is to allow the kernels of truth to overwhelm me and not see the extreme proclamations and behavior of my husband. For example, my husband tends to exaggerate things, looking to present himself in a positive light. Tonight my husband repeatedly argued that excepting my family, ALL the women in this country love him. My parents and I laughed at this and disagreed. At the time it seemed like we were all having a good time. But later that evening my husband got very angry at my earlier "disloyalty" and attempted to treat me like a child, yelling, "I am not going near you - go to your room!"

Kernal of truth - I could have been more supportive and done better at playfully encouraging my husband's ego. Distortion - the fact that I laughed at his claim that ALL women loved him was not an act of disloyalty but a reasonable response during a happy conversation.

Butane- this division of labor seems to be mostly about the fact that my husband gets depressed and fails to find the energy to do a lot of household work or admin. He does cook a lot, so that is a real contribution. The other reason he doesn't do a lot for the household is that he grew up in a dysfunctional but wealthy environment and has a "sense of himself" as someone who doesn't do certain practical tasks.

You are right that I shouldn't equalize my mental health struggles. My husband is suffering from something way beyond my "covid-we're-stuck-inside-and-isolated-struggle".

Thank you for validating that what my husband did with filming me and the commentary went beyond normal. It was such a horrible thing to go through and really brought me so low.

This past week I've been working hard on my boundary of accepting my husband's definitions of me. I am not disloyal, a B*tch, or unloving. I've been working hard to show him love through cooking special food, massages etc. But when he says "you are disloyal, deliberately don't listen to me and don't love me and until you admit this, our marriage is headed for disaster", I refuse to be manipulated. I will apologize and I will admit we have different interpretations, but I will not submit to what he calls "the absolute objective truth" that is, I will not submit that I am the person he tells me I am.