Why do BPDs think they know what you are feeling better than you do?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I am in the process of separating from my UstbxBPDSO, so I think this is the right group for this message.

Very often, when I told my partner what I thought or felt, she would respond by "correcting" me and telling me with certainty what I actually thought or felt.  Very often she would tell me what my motives were--"You just said that because you want to do X" or "you were trying to do X."  She was almost always wrong about what I was actually thinking or feeling or motivated by.  But her attitude was one of complete confidence and certainty.

This always felt hurtful to me, but I eventually learned--through lots of therapy--that I had tolerated this kind of communication as normal because my mother is the same way.

I have since developed many healthy relationships with friends and others who never tell me what I think or feel.  They express curiosity about what I think or feel, and when I share myself with them, they listen and accept what I say about myself as the truth.

My question is this: why do people with BPD engage in this kind of behavior?  The primary explanation I have heard is that they perceive themselves as being the "same person" with the people closest to them, almost as if there is no boundary between them.  So it feels natural to them that they would know intuitively what their partner is feeling, because they are not two distinct people, but actually one combined person.  I have heard the terms "enmeshment" and lack of "differentiation" and "individuation" in relation to this.

If this is true, it helps me to understand projection and gaslighting as well.  All of these behaviors make sense if the person who engages in them feels like they are merged with someone else.

Is this right?  Is it right for at least some people with BPD?  Is there some other explanation?

Although I am on the way out of this relationship, I am trying to understand this.  Thank you.

[TRB]

I am in the process of separating from my UstbxBPDSO, so I think this is the right group for this message.

Very often, when I told my partner what I thought or felt, she would respond by "correcting" me and telling me with certainty what I actually thought or felt.  Very often she would tell me what my motives were--"You just said that because you want to do X" or "you were trying to do X."  She was almost always wrong about what I was actually thinking or feeling or motivated by.  But her attitude was one of complete confidence and certainty.

This always felt hurtful to me, but I eventually learned--through lots of therapy--that I had tolerated this kind of communication as normal because my mother is the same way.

I have since developed many healthy relationships with friends and others who never tell me what I think or feel.  They express curiosity about what I think or feel, and when I share myself with them, they listen and accept what I say about myself as the truth.

My question is this: why do people with BPD engage in this kind of behavior?  The primary explanation I have heard is that they perceive themselves as being the "same person" with the people closest to them, almost as if there is no boundary between them.  So it feels natural to them that they would know intuitively what their partner is feeling, because they are not two distinct people, but actually one combined person.  I have heard the terms "enmeshment" and lack of "differentiation" and "individuation" in relation to this.

If this is true, it helps me to understand projection and gaslighting as well.  All of these behaviors make sense if the person who engages in them feels like they are merged with someone else.

Is this right?  Is it right for at least some people with BPD?  Is there some other explanation?

Although I am on the way out of this relationship, I am trying to understand this.  Thank you.

[SinisterComplex]

Perhaps you may enjoy this article. I could get into explaining this more in-depth, but I think this article does a great job at providing some perspective.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-emotional-intensity/201805/the-unexpected-gifts-inside-borderline-personality

Cheers!

-SC-

[TRB]

Perhaps you may enjoy this article. I could get into explaining this more in-depth, but I think this article does a great job at providing some perspective.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-emotional-intensity/201805/the-unexpected-gifts-inside-borderline-personality

Cheers!

-SC-

Thanks for that article.  It was definitely helpful and does describe my partner accurately.  She is very attuned to other people's feelings and I can count on her to know if I am hiding a feeling.

However, the thing I am asking about is a bit different.  I'm asking about situations in which my pwBPD is sure that she knows what I am feeling, but she is actually wrong.  For example, in some situation she may believe that I am feeling anger, while I am actually feeling fear.  I can try to explain to her that I am afraid, but it doesn't change her mind--she remains convinced that I am angry.  Nothing I do or say can change her belief that she knows what I am feeling better than I do.

I am wondering if this is because she perceives us both as a single person in some sense, especially when she is feeling strong emotions.  As I mentioned, I have heard psychologists use terms such as "lack of individuation" or "lack of differentiation" to describe this.  I believe that infants have this quality of not sensing a boundary between themselves and their mothers, but that most people grow out of this early in life.  

I am wondering if the abuse and/neglect that often occurs with people who develop BPD results in them never fully developing the sense that the people around them have their own distinct thoughts, feelings, and motivations?  And leads them to believe that they can just "know" what the people in their life are thinking and feeling?

[Turkish]

Projection.

Projective Identification is when we, as targets, accept that projection and internalize it. 

[JNChell]

I’ll echo Turkish. They want us to feel their feelings for them because they don’t know how to do that. It’s very child like, but very real. They can’t own their stuff, in a nutshell.

[Turkish]

My ex, a very I independent woman, and who didn't like to be controlled (her words), ultimately told me that she needed someone to "lead and guide her." And "in that, you failed."

It's hard to navigate what I viewed as cross-purposes. Better to focus upon and be true to yourself, who you are rather than who someone else desires you to be for their sake.

[Gibson56]

Yes this is projection.  It's still hard to wrap my head around.  She would sometimes describe my feelings with vocabulary that I don't use... you think I'm gross!  I don't use the word gross ever.  Would always accuse me of being angry when I knew I wasn't. 

I agree they have a hard time seeing people separate from themselves.  After one of our only couples counseling sessions she remarked that she never knew I had this whole other world of my own going on. 

[daze507]

I think they indeed have a hard time seeing us as a separate and independent entity. Looking back at my relationship, I've realized that not once she asked ne how I was doing, I was always about her, all the time. Like a child basically.
This is another red flag I purposely ignored.

[Cromwell]

part of it, and this is just my own theory and opinion so take it as far as that. Egocentrism, lack of empathy and projection.

One of the most frustrating parts of the lack of emotional intimacy is how much as time went by my ex would suddenly become "surprised" about how 'different' I was compared to what she told me from the start that she can read "anyone like a book".

It stems from idealism too, the image in the mind of who another is rather than something called taking the time or the risk - to get to know them.

How that fits in with any real theories about BPD, I dont know, or even if it is important, but it is what I reflect on the experience. In some ways it also makes more sense to the confusion of how I was so 'hated' and split black early on and could not understand why. My faults were a product of her own mind and not based on knowing me.

Very inward looking perspective that then gets projected to the rest of the world. I do it too, I reckon every human does but the key point is, I do it to an extent that is balanced out and open to have my view changed as much as not leap to this polar thinking of "totally know" something, there is leeway in for doubt. With my ex if she got in her head that someone in the street looked at her with a malicious mindset it was nothing that could be persuaded otherwise, (this happened and I tried to give her reasonable explanations), she just cut me off, there was no reasoning, her mind was set, rigid and fixed that he was a 'bad' one and she just "knows".

Just as an aside, I Cant believe people like her could actually end up called for jury service.

[daze507]

"I know" probably the two words she spoke the most during devaluation. She knew basically everything, she knew I would go back to my ex, she knew I purposely did not message her, she knew I was only interested by sex, I even wonder what was the point of her arguing with me since she had absolute knowledge of everything.

[Kayclan]

Wow, that is how my family member is. I say something, she gets offended, I  try to explain and I get..."what you really mean is...". No that's not what I meant at all.  I have no answers, I'm learning myself.
Sorry if this comes out twice, can't remember if I pressed  Post.

[Gauche]

Glad (I suppose) that I read this thread. I very much struggle with this. Arguments, or difficult conversations, are so challenging. No matter what I say about my emotions or feelings towards her, her assumptions of how I feel always win out.

She thinks she's fat  - she's normally very fit and athletic but some recent health issues (and unhealthy eating) have caused her to gain a LITTLE weight. I still think she is incredibly gorgeous and sexy. But all she ever talks about is her weight. when i attempt to reassure her, I'm wrong.

Motives get questioned, what i "want" is what she thinks I want, not what i tell her i really want.

Tough conversations, when i see them coming, always scare me now, because I know i don't have a voice. I don't even know what to say anymore, so i usually just say less. Because whatever i say is wrong.

[daze507]

Gauche, is she aware of her disorder?

[Gauche]

daze507 - yes; she told me early on that she had been diagnosed as borderline a couple of months into us seeing each other - she at the time was transparent and wanted me to know before we got serious.
She has days where she has self awareness and sees what she is doing is not rational. But others not so much

[daze507]

Well that is already a very very good thing.

[Gauche]

daze507
yes, it is. and that's why i have hope that we can have a future.
But right now we are in one of the dark days. Waiting to see if she is going to decide to keep trying or let go. And I don't feel like I did anything wrong. We had an argument last weekend, but came out of it and met and talked thru a lot. Very healthy. All week has been fantastic and planning a trip for next week.
Then she has a huge fight with her ex last night and now I'm waiting to see if she still wants to be with me, because his threats are transposed onto me and our relationship.

Yesterday was one of the better communication days we've ever had. Today - i'm in the waiting room to decide if she wants to continue (all without me doing or saying anything "Wrong") All due to her ex and his methods of demeaning her

[daze507]

The fact that she is still in contact (and still arguing) with her ex should be a huge no no, even worse considering she has BPD.
In my humble opinion you should have defined a strict boundary here, unless childs or financial matters are involved and in this case it's a different story. It's already hard to deal with a BPD on its own, if you add the ex in all that you're to end up insane.
Is she following a therapy?

[Gauche]

The fact that she is still in contact (and still arguing) with her ex should be a huge no no, even worse considering she has BPD.
In my humble opinion you should have defined a strict boundary here, unless childs or financial matters are involved and in this case it's a different story. It's already hard to deal with a BPD on its own, if you add the ex in all that you're to end up insane.
Is she following a therapy?

It seems most of her interactions with ex start as child-related, then he uses that as an in to blame her. "Our son will have his heart broken by his GF and become suicidal b/c you are a whore/ insane, etc"

she is seeing a therapist, but it seems only acutely. Like yesterday and today when she feels that she needs a tune up. I think quarantine didn't help. She's on a myriad of meds, but i'm afraid some don't always get taken. esp depression meds. she falls off the wagon.
their separation has been going on for year + but final for only a few months. So still lots of raw emotions and learning how to co-parent. still some connections there that she hasn't fully addressed and detached herself from, which allows him more access to exact his frustrations

[daze507]

Ok, you're in on for a good rollercoaster trip. The choice of deciding if the juice is worth the squeeze is only yours (because one has to think about himself at some point, sometimes we just cannot save the unsalvageable).

[Gauche]

Ok, you're in on for a good rollercoaster trip. The choice of deciding if the juice is worth the squeeze is only yours (because one has to think about himself at some point, sometimes we just cannot save the unsalvageable).

Thanks for your responses. Yes, today has hurt a lot, but also feels a little different. last arguments felt like there was still hope, but today almost feels inevitable that it is slipping away. I'm doing what I can to be better and stronger, but today feels like she has decided she won't do same or that I/we are not worth it. I know that's not reality and I shouldn't blame myself, but that's where I am.
Appreciate you responding. I've been trying to get on phone with my own therapist (as I worked thru deciding if I was up for all this) but cannot get thru.
VERY lonely day today.

[daze507]

No problem, we're here to support each others. The guilt feeling is perfectly normal. Hang in there.

[TRB]

"I know" probably the two words she spoke the most during devaluation. She knew basically everything, she knew I would go back to my ex, she knew I purposely did not message her, she knew I was only interested by sex, I even wonder what was the point of her arguing with me since she had absolute knowledge of everything.

This reminds me of something my therapist said to me about his BPD and narcissistic clients: "When I am speaking to them, there might as well be a cardboard cutout of me sitting here instead of the real me, because when they speak to me they are not really absorbing anything I say to them.  There is just a one-way stream of information from them to me.  It is like they are talking to themselves."

This resonated a lot with me and seems similar to your statement that "I even wonder what was the point of her arguing with me since she had absolute knowledge of everything."

I have enjoyed videos by Lisa A. Romano about relationships between codependents and narcissists.  In one of them she says something like, "Narcissists always know what you are thinking and feeling."  Of course she is being sarcastic, and just means that they believe that they know what you are thinking and feeling, and will tell you that they know what you are thinking and feeling with complete confidence, even when they are completely wrong!

After many years of being on the receiving end of this, I still find myself wondering... why?  What would cause someone to believe that they know what someone else's internal experience is better than that person knows themself?  Maybe this is just my irrational codependent desire to seek understanding of someone who is mistreating me, but now that I have gotten a lot better at detaching from my BPD partner's "mind reading" of me, I am still curious about what might be going on inside her that would cause her to engage in this.

On a separate note, my plan to move out is moving forward slowly and steadily.  It is strange and challenging to still be living with my partner, trying to be compassionate and engage with her as my best self while we are still living together under a COVID stay-at-home order, and while simultaneously working on moving out of here.  She does know I am moving out and has expressed acceptance of it, but of course she continues to act out in various ways against my plan.  I am proud of how I have not backed down or caved in, like I did in the past.  I am glad I have grown stronger and have a lot of support, but it is still very hard.  I will be glad when I am living separately and independently.

[Thebiglimp]

I think they indeed have a hard time seeing us as a separate and independent entity. Looking back at my relationship, I've realized that not once she asked ne how I was doing, I was always about her, all the time. Like a child basically.
This is another red flag I purposely ignored.

I just had to exclaim omg. This was exactly how mine was too.

Did yours also communicate excessively non stop on text? Just swamping you with their presence.

Im thinking thats an extension of this symptom.

[Kaylina15]

This resonated a lot with me and seems similar to your statement that "I even wonder what was the point of her arguing with me since she had absolute knowledge of everything."


On a separate note, my plan to move out is moving forward slowly and steadily.  It is strange and challenging to still be living with my partner, trying to be compassionate and engage with her as my best self while we are still living together under a COVID stay-at-home order, and while simultaneously working on moving out of here.  She does know I am moving out and has expressed acceptance of it, but of course she continues to act out in various ways against my plan.  I am proud of how I have not backed down or caved in, like I did in the past.  I am glad I have grown stronger and have a lot of support, but it is still very hard.  I will be glad when I am living separately and independently.

This is soo very much me right now! My husband thinks I am leaving him because of other reasons other than his issues...he thinks he knows everything i am feeling...i have told him that is not how i feel. I also read another post in this thread about them never asking about YOU, like, how your day was etc...I would visit my family for a week or two, come home, and not even get a "how was your trip? Did you have fun?" Yes, i would text him randomly while there to show him photos of our nieces etc, but still...two weeks of being away and he never hugged me hello or anything. He would always just be like "oh hey.."  I'm slowly moving forward to leaving him, now that the stay at home is lessening.

[daze507]

I just had to exclaim omg. This was exactly how mine was too.

Did yours also communicate excessively non stop on text? Just swamping you with their presence.

Im thinking thats an extension of this symptom.

Not really but she was a proud one this one. However, she blamed me once for not messaging enough or even answering some of her messages. It's interesting because at the beginning of the relationship she said that a thing she liked about me was that I wasn't constantly stuck to my phone.

[Thebiglimp]

Not really but she was a proud one this one. However, she blamed me once for not messaging enough or even answering some of her messages. It's interesting because at the beginning of the relationship she said that a thing she liked about me was that I wasn't constantly stuck to my phone.

They really are a bag of irony.

Mine suddenly complained that i was texting too much (i guess at the mark of her devalue phase) when it was her who wrote constantly for over a year.

[daze507]

They really are a bag of irony.

Mine suddenly complained that i was texting too much (i guess at the mark of her devalue phase) when it was her who wrote constantly for over a year.

It is in essence the relationship with a pwBPD: No constancy, memories erased or distorted, impulsivity, no empathy and everything always about them and only about them. A total different personality from the one during the idealization phase.
They live in the present only so if at one time they feel you are annoying them with your texting, it is absolutely irrelevant for them if they use to do that themselves in the past and in all probability, they don't even remember it to begin with. They are the kings and queens of double-standards and don't you dare pointing that fact to them, they hate it when the truth is shoved in their face.