Kitchen sinking Part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344491.0;all

A week passed by with no positive change in sight. undiagnosed husband’s parents Birthday happened this week, both mom and dad. He had cut them off last year, due to their increasing demands and little emotional support for him. It was hard, he kept on saying that he wanted to drink (heavy liquor). From my perspective it’s a coping tool. He swung back and fourth, between quiet depression and hypo mania with anger and irritability. Regardless of what is happening around us, he is constantly seeking validation for the end of the world. Then there is a working animal he purchased. It’s a puppy, his expectations, however is complete obedience and Orderly conduct. Puppy behaviour such as biting, stubbornness and accidents are being magnified a million and tuned into a tirade of something being wrong with the dog. He has no patience. Zero. Does not train the dog himself, instead acting like a mighty supervisor, criticizing me and the children. He also can’t work collaboratively on training the dog in pairs. Every 3 days he stops talking to me, to punish. Last week he locked me out of our family bedroom, along with the dog. Sleeping on the couch wasn’t pleasant. Today the issue arose with the diet. He watches YouTube, which may be helpful, however, very few of them are shot by trained experts. He began the process of feeding the pup the raw diet. Puppy’s behaviour changed, as well as his bawl  habits. I dealt with him not wanting to walk (likely stomach pain), being tired and lethargic, and having a diarrhea all afternoon. Several times I brought it to undiagnosed husband’s attention, that we needed to reconsider the diet and go back to preparing and boiling his food. Undiagnosed Husband refused to listed initially. Finally, after the last diarrhea bout I walked in and said that we aren’t feeding the dog raw diet tomorrow, or until he gets better. To which undiagnosed husband through out the dogs bed from our joint bedroom and barricaded himself inside. Yelling that he denounces the dog and doesn’t want to have anything to do with it. Or me, that I needed to face the consequences and grow up with my decisions. I will walk to my bedroom, calmly get him to open the door and tell him that I have an opinion, responsibility to the children and pets to keep them safe. He also can’t lock me out of the room, if he wants to be alone, then he should leave.

[snowglobe]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344491.0;all

A week passed by with no positive change in sight. undiagnosed husband’s parents Birthday happened this week, both mom and dad. He had cut them off last year, due to their increasing demands and little emotional support for him. It was hard, he kept on saying that he wanted to drink (heavy liquor). From my perspective it’s a coping tool. He swung back and fourth, between quiet depression and hypo mania with anger and irritability. Regardless of what is happening around us, he is constantly seeking validation for the end of the world. Then there is a working animal he purchased. It’s a puppy, his expectations, however is complete obedience and Orderly conduct. Puppy behaviour such as biting, stubbornness and accidents are being magnified a million and tuned into a tirade of something being wrong with the dog. He has no patience. Zero. Does not train the dog himself, instead acting like a mighty supervisor, criticizing me and the children. He also can’t work collaboratively on training the dog in pairs. Every 3 days he stops talking to me, to punish. Last week he locked me out of our family bedroom, along with the dog. Sleeping on the couch wasn’t pleasant. Today the issue arose with the diet. He watches YouTube, which may be helpful, however, very few of them are shot by trained experts. He began the process of feeding the pup the raw diet. Puppy’s behaviour changed, as well as his bawl  habits. I dealt with him not wanting to walk (likely stomach pain), being tired and lethargic, and having a diarrhea all afternoon. Several times I brought it to undiagnosed husband’s attention, that we needed to reconsider the diet and go back to preparing and boiling his food. Undiagnosed Husband refused to listed initially. Finally, after the last diarrhea bout I walked in and said that we aren’t feeding the dog raw diet tomorrow, or until he gets better. To which undiagnosed husband through out the dogs bed from our joint bedroom and barricaded himself inside. Yelling that he denounces the dog and doesn’t want to have anything to do with it. Or me, that I needed to face the consequences and grow up with my decisions. I will walk to my bedroom, calmly get him to open the door and tell him that I have an opinion, responsibility to the children and pets to keep them safe. He also can’t lock me out of the room, if he wants to be alone, then he should leave.

[GaGrl]

Can you return the puppy to the breeder before it incurs much more damage? This is cruel.

[snowglobe]

Can you return the puppy to the breeder before it incurs much more damage? This is cruel.

GaGrl,
There is a deep sense of shame associated with this. The children have put 100 percent of their little hearts and souls into this little guy now to say goodbye. Frankly, I enjoy the attention and companionship that the puppy provides. Undiagnosed husband will not be allowed to prepare any meals for the dog going forward. This isn’t his little experiment. I do not believe undiagnosed husband want to intentionally hurt the dog. He was never cruel to the other pet we have. The standards however are just too high for this little guy, since he is expected to be the working one. Perhaps even this diet is decided upon in order to “enhance the natural potential”. Yet the outcome is the same. The dog has stomach pains and diarrhea, the diet doesn’t agree with him. Before the last two days I have been making his meals consistently and we had no issues associated with his digestion’s.

[babyducks]

There is a deep sense of shame associated with this. The children have put 100 percent of their little hearts and souls into this little guy now to say goodbye. Frankly, I enjoy the attention and companionship that the puppy provides.

I'm confused by what you are saying here snowglobe?    Are you saying it's an acceptable trade off for the puppy to be mistreated to avoid the emotional unpleasantness of returning the dog?    I have had working dogs.    they need a job and an outlet for their energy.   they need to be able to bond with their family, their new pack.    to be used as a 'tool' of  validation for the for the coming end of the world is cruel to the puppy.

A week passed by with no positive change in sight.

how do you feel about there being no positive change?   did you have some reason to think there would be positive change?   

He swung back and fourth, between quiet depression and hypo mania with anger and irritability. Regardless of what is happening around us, he is constantly seeking validation for the end of the world.

with the exception of him believing the world is ending this is not unusually different behavior from him is it?

Yelling that he denounces the dog and doesn’t want to have anything to do with it. Or me, that I needed to face the consequences and grow up with my decisions. I will walk to my bedroom, calmly get him to open the door and tell him that I have an opinion, responsibility to the children and pets to keep them safe. He also can’t lock me out of the room, if he wants to be alone, then he should leave.

have you actually said to him that if he wants to be alone then he should leave?    how did that go?

'ducks

[formflier]

I think the better "life lesson" is to be upfront and honest with kids about doing what's best for the puppy.  Then do that.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Maybe you can get them another pet that your husband won't be placing demands upon, like a hamster.

[snowglobe]

Thank you for your replies guys, undiagnosed husband woke up 180 this morning. He is quit, placid and looks remorseful. He plays with the pet, but doesn’t try to place any demands. I’m making puppy’s meals myself from now on.
Ff, help me understand why undiagnosed husband’s poor decisions should influence the decisions I make with my children. This isn’t me being defensive, this is me trying to understand. I don’t know how to explain to the kids what is going on with undiagnosed husband. All I can do is to create boundaries- like not allowing him to feed the dog or walk him alone. Moreover, him getting the pet and me taking him away creates an illusion of all controlling mother, who is dominating their poor dad. If I continue creating and enforcing the boundaries while allowing undiagnosed husband to endure the consequences of his actions, perhaps everyone will earn and benefit from the situation. Example would be- if you do not train the dog with patience day after day, they aren’t going to be working for you. If you don’t feed the pet The right food- they will have upset stomach and won’t want to go for walks. By the way, this was 100% diet issue. Today the pup is doing much better.

[formflier]

A serious question:  If you had come to us and asked, is it wise to introduce another living being into this situation (with undiagnosed husband)...is there any doubt whatsoever what answers you would have gotten.

If your husband wants to raise dogs (or insert other animals), he should move out and go get a place where he can do that without exposing the children to watching his methods.

Another serious question:  Aren't there more important things for you, children and hubby to be focused on...rather than training a puppy (which is challenging even in the best situations).

Take the "point of view" of the puppy.  Imagine the puppy's life with uBPD hubby around for the next (insert period of time).  Is that fair for the puppy?


Best,

FF

PS:  It is possible that if you and kids were living apart for uBPD hubby, that I would have a different answer.  I certainly would have lots of questions...but I can imagine where that would be a positive thing for your family and for the dog. 

[hope2727]

Hello Snowglobe,

I read your post with a tear in my eye. I of course cannot tell you what you should do. I just wanted to share with you a tiny bit of my own experience(s) that may help you to clarify your own decisions.

I was raised with a father who was very much like you describe your husband. I have several siblings. My mother is 88 so you can imagine it was a very different time socially for women. She is also from a faith that did not readily support divorce. In her early marriage the laws were written so that her husband had to sign for her to have a bank account, a drivers license, or even have birth control prescriptions filled. So things were very challenging in terms of the idea of leaving him.

My father sounds so much like your husband that it was a bit scary to read your post. He had the grandiose thoughts and plans, he raged about the economy and the economic downfall of society. He prepped in his own way for the demise of society. He insisted on no new technology. Everything had to be old school. Our farm had an outhouse and hand pump because we could survive with those if there was no power. We had wood heat and a wood stove. You get the idea.

He alternated between being obsessed and kind to dismissive and cruel. This was both with his children and with animals. I could elaborate but I am sure you can envision it. We were objects to be shown off, used as labour, lectured to, raged at, punished punitively or used for his own entertainment depending on the whims of his moods. When I think back on the things we endured and or witnessed he should have been charged with abuse. Period.  

My father fits your husbands working diagnosis so accurately that I had to read it twice. The manias, the depressions, the lack of personal care, you name it they could be copies. So I get it. I really do. My father also had a range of other symptoms and behaviours that I won't bore you with but suffice is to say it was horrible.

Here is the thing. My mother had 5 kids. When she was leaving the hospital after the birth of her 3rd child she knew she had to leave him. She couldn't and stayed for 19 more years and 2 more kids. Eventually she did leave. I was 14 my sister was 9, the others were grown. We had nothing and lived in both poverty and fear. She struggled with her own mental health while recovering. It was not easy. Things did get better and I have fond memories of my childhood/adolescence related to her.
I thank her ever day for leaving because he did not change.

Let me repeat that ... HE DID NOT CHANGE!  In fact he got worse.

Despite losing everything, including face, his promises of getting help and working things out were a fantasy. She never expected he would actually make any significant changes and he didn't. He died a few years ago at almost 90 and he was EXACTLY the same as the day we left. He was actually significantly worse if I had to quantify it. And yes they too went to seek help for many years. But hey it was all us and not him... he was the victim and the martyr as I am sure you already have guessed. Does that sound familiar?

Meanwhile growing up that way taught his 5 kids to either be like him (2 of them followed the same behaviour patterns and are now creating all kinds of havoc and hurt in their own families) or to be tolerant of partners like him. I have watched my brother and sister become  quieter sneakier versions of my father. The details are different but the core values and behaviours are the same. I watched myself tolerate the same abuse from partners, employers, friendships etc for many decades. Now I am estranged for the most part from my siblings. I have a tiny circle of close friends. I have given up looking for a partner. I have become a bit of a B-with and itch according to some but hey thats their problem if they don't like my boundaries. I am isolated by choice to protect myself from further abuses but I am happy. I wish I had made the connection and decisions sooner. I have a quiet fulfilling life.

My father ruined our family and our lives. We are an amazing family with many talents and beautiful hearts but we are so twisted up by how we grew up that its been a battle to overcome. The youngest kid made it out the best. Less exposure I suppose. I would think I'm about 2nd best but only after 2 failed relationships with persons with personality disorders (diagnosed) and a lot of trauma. As you go up through the siblings the wreckage is more and more apparent. So i am grateful every day that mom left. When I was agonizing over leaving my own marriage of 12 years I asked her opinion she told me to leave sooner rather than later because people don't change.

So do what you feel you must. Just bear in mind that you deserve a happy healthy future. And your children deserve to learn to be respectful in their relationships with others and to be respected in their relationships with others. That pup deserves a chance to have a decent life. You all deserve to be healthy and happy both now and in your future relationships. It will be hard no matter what you decide. I know it is heart breaking. I get it. But that stupid greeting card line is true. When people show you who they are believe them.

I just realized that sounded kinda preachy. I apologize. So here is an addendum. You taking care of the pup is a rescue. The pup is helpless in the situation. I have working dogs. They are a huge amount of work. Maybe that is why we call them working dogs. . There are people who will take that dog pandemic or not. It is not your responsibility. Yes its hard for the kids to love a pup and see it leave. But did you want the pup? Nope you begged not to get him. Now you are being dumped with another soul to care for and protect from the rages and unpredictability. So how you can go about it with hubby i am not sure but there are places for the little guy. As for the psychologists assessment. Well  I am truly deeply sorry for your situation. I genuinely feel for you and your family including your husband.

I would encourage you to schedule another consultation as soon as possible and discuss the repeated physical assaults happening in your home and ask if this new knowledge in any way changes your providers professional advice.

Bottom line:  This is not a place to be "selective" about information sharing.  Lay it all out there and listen carefully to professional medical opinion given.

This is the best advice I've seen in a long while. It is absolutely the truth. Be brave and get the dirt on the table so to speak so you can figure out the best way to shovel it.

No judgement from me as I know how these situations become so embroiled. I still love my ex(s). I get how much we want them to be well. I understand how it can all seem so overwhelmingly devastating. I am not telling you what to do or not do. I just wanted you to know you are not alone and to have a glimpse into  what the future can hold both positive and negative.

Meanwhile I will have you in my thoughts and pray you get a little peace today. You are stronger than you know and we believe in you. Sending you appropriately socially distanced hugs.

Hope 

[Notwendy]

Moreover, him getting the pet and me taking him away creates an illusion of all controlling mother, who is dominating their poor dad.



This is victim triangle. It's also not doing something, or doing something for fear of how someone will see you. Sometimes we need to do things that our kids don't like. You've got a teenager, so you know that. There were times my kids were angry at me for doing something, they didn't understand why. They did later. "now I know why you didn't let me go out the night before my school test"

The dog is in the triangle. Dad is persecutor, dog is victim. But it's a true victim- it doesn't have choices. You need to make the right choice for the dog. Is the dog in the best and safest place ?  When you decide for the dog are you thinking of what is best for the dog or how your kids willl see you, or the best for you and the family? What's best for the dog might not be what's best for you.




If I continue creating and enforcing the boundaries while allowing undiagnosed husband to endure the consequences of his actions, perhaps everyone will earn and benefit from the situation.

Your H isn't facing the consequences of his actions. He continues to be abusive to his family.


I'm not telling you what to do here. Perhaps what you are doing is best for the dog. I might be better than being in an animal shelter if that's the alternative but it might not be better than being in a home safe from abuse. So I don't know the choices available.

[Cat Familiar]

If the dog is bred to be a working dog, it's unlikely he would languish in a shelter very long, unless he's a pit bull or Staffordshire terrier. Those breeds can be hard to adopt out.

My concern is that you have a young dog who is not being adequately trained (it takes a lot of attention and focus) and is being treated abusively at times. He's cute now, but in a few months, you'll have an adult, with hormones, unless you get him neutered. And that adult dog could turn into an unpredictable, uncontrollable animal, simply because he hasn't been given boundaries or a job.