Ex girlfriend considers me a cheater (maybe I am?), is there any way to recover? PART 3

[Depression = 72% of members]

i mean this wont stand or fall on one or two "fatal" mistakes. there isnt a post youve made where ive thought to myself "oh, you blew it, thats it, no going back".

at the same time, the dynamic hasnt really shifted. the two of you are still in a similar place to where you were weeks ago. you make an overture...or different kinds of overtures. mostly she feels invalidated, and you kick your own ass. the dynamic repeats. thats the bigger picture.

giving her a few days space is a good move. vital, i would suggest. but thats a bandaid. without a real shift, the present dynamic is mostly doing damage over time.

So the big shift really needs to be to cut all relationship stuff, thereby stop invalidating her. Letting her get on with what she wants to get on with and not making any moves that might be interpreted as interjecting?

[dumpedinlove]

i mean this wont stand or fall on one or two "fatal" mistakes. there isnt a post youve made where ive thought to myself "oh, you blew it, thats it, no going back".

at the same time, the dynamic hasnt really shifted. the two of you are still in a similar place to where you were weeks ago. you make an overture...or different kinds of overtures. mostly she feels invalidated, and you kick your own ass. the dynamic repeats. thats the bigger picture.

giving her a few days space is a good move. vital, i would suggest. but thats a bandaid. without a real shift, the present dynamic is mostly doing damage over time.

So the big shift really needs to be to cut all relationship stuff, thereby stop invalidating her. Letting her get on with what she wants to get on with and not making any moves that might be interpreted as interjecting?

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[dumpedinlove]

Had a bizarre interaction today that came out of nowhere. A week ago one of her best friends (who I always got on very well with) shared a political post on her instagram story. I replied to it and said something about the comments on the post, to which she replied in agreement with what I said, and then I wished her well. That was the entirety of the interaction.

Today, my ex messaged me out of the blue. She said it was extremely inconsiderate that I would reach out to her best friend like that, so I just said I didn't realise it would make her uncomfortable and apologised, and for her clarity described what was said to ease her mind in case she thought it wasn't purely about a political thing.

I'm not sure if she was baiting, but she then had a huge overreaction in my opinion. She said that me doing it, after she had broken up with me and was healing from being "absolutely torn down and cheated on" was disrespectful, selfish, manipulative and disgusting. And that she doesn't even entertain the idea of getting back together because we don't even have the same outlook on minor issues such as these.

It felt a little like she had twisted things to become the full victim of the whole breakup. I also explained that for me it is communication that leads to the same outlook, which is what had happened as I was happy to oblige. But that wasn't good enough and she said I'm somehow the only person in her life that doesn't have the intuition to not have to talk about things. It feels like I'm expected to be a mind reader to be honest.

We talked relationship stuff for a little bit (only because she brought it all up), and she kept saying she is so so much happier now. She kept saying over her dead body would she ever date me again and also kept repeating that she is "DISGUSTED" and it makes her "SICK" about the lying about what happened.

It seems she is still very hurt by what happened. And I wouldn't have discussed it if she hadn't brought it up, but is even responding back about this stuff just making things worse?

[once removed]

im going to keep bringing it back to Skip's advice on this...it really applies to every conversation youre having with her, its the same dance, and if you really want to shift it, youre going to need to change your moves.

You are looking for a logic pathway to fix to convince her to try to give it another go. She is in a power position (consciously or subconsciously she knows this). You are trying to wrestle control of the narrative back to your logic train.

Do you see how that could be? Two different people processing very different situation (hers is very different to yours) using different processes? Two people trying to control the narrative?

If you continue to try to control the narrative, she will push harder on hers (and vice versa).

Stop trying to control the narrative - let go of the idea that you can logic her out of this, Let go of the idea that "giving her approval to feel the way she feels" is compelling. Let go of the idea that overt or over played validation is going to help.

What will help is to listen. Be contrite. Accept uncertainty.
...
She is seeing how you handle her in control.

If it was me, I would just take in all the negativity and be quiet about it. Don't try to take control of it. I think we have no future. That makes me sad. End. Let the topic drift to something more neutral... more upbeat.

Just try to keep the conversations very easy for her. This means dealing with a great deal of uncertainty for a bit. Be OK with that.

Hard. Yes. Human nature. Hear her. Take it in. You validate it by not trying to redirect her.

lets walk it through, what this looks like in practice here.

She said it was extremely inconsiderate that I would reach out to her best friend like that, so I just said I didn't realise it would make her uncomfortable and apologised, and for her clarity described what was said to ease her mind in case she thought it wasn't purely about a political thing.

that would have been a good place to stop; not trying to control the narrative, not trying to control the negativity. "im sorry. i didnt realize". be contrite, accept uncertainty. let the next move be hers.

she was pissed (whether reasonably or unreasonably). dont counter those feelings with logic. let them be.

but she then had a huge overreaction in my opinion. She said that me doing it, after she had broken up with me and was healing from being "absolutely torn down and cheated on" was disrespectful, selfish, manipulative and disgusting. And that she doesn't even entertain the idea of getting back together because we don't even have the same outlook on minor issues such as these.

this is a clear cut case of "pushing back harder on her narrative". and shes more or less saying "SEE, YOU ALWAYS DO THIS". at this point, its, to her, pretty much more about your response than what you did initially.

I also explained that for me it is communication that leads to the same outlook, which is what had happened as I was happy to oblige. But that wasn't good enough and she said I'm somehow the only person in her life that doesn't have the intuition to not have to talk about things.

likewise, this is a clear cut case of pushing back with your narrative. in order to communicate with her, youre going to need to read her. the issue, as she sees it, is clear as the line in bold. she wants you to stop explaining. to stop trying to counter her with logic. to be cool and confident with her in control, or with uncertainty. to be contrite.

i dont know how else to put it...to stop trying to argue her to your point of view.

dont JADE. make it your mantra. it will make every interaction, even if she lets you have it, much easier, more constructive, and it will catch her off guard.

[dumpedinlove]

im going to keep bringing it back to Skip's advice on this...it really applies to every conversation youre having with her, its the same dance, and if you really want to shift it, youre going to need to change your moves.

lets walk it through, what this looks like in practice here.

that would have been a good place to stop; not trying to control the narrative, not trying to control the negativity. "im sorry. i didnt realize". be contrite, accept uncertainty. let the next move be hers.

she was pissed (whether reasonably or unreasonably). dont counter those feelings with logic. let them be.

this is a clear cut case of "pushing back harder on her narrative". and shes more or less saying "SEE, YOU ALWAYS DO THIS". at this point, its, to her, pretty much more about your response than what you did initially.

likewise, this is a clear cut case of pushing back with your narrative. in order to communicate with her, youre going to need to read her. the issue, as she sees it, is clear as the line in bold. she wants you to stop explaining. to stop trying to counter her with logic. to be cool and confident with her in control, or with uncertainty. to be contrite.

i dont know how else to put it...to stop trying to argue her to your point of view.

dont JADE. make it your mantra. it will make every interaction, even if she lets you have it, much easier, more constructive, and it will catch her off guard.

I read this the other day but didn't reply instantly as I wanted to take some time to really think about it and how I was approaching things. I think I needed to have all that reinforced so thanks OR, it was very helpful.

It's been a few days and we spoke a couple of times. We did talk about our relationship a bit, things were basically the same really. I can tell there is resentment and she says she would have been very open to talk if I hadn't done what I did, but I did so she isn't interested. I've moved into a new flat now with some people my age, and I think it's really helped with just getting my life back a bit. I've pulled back a little with her, I've not been trying to find excuses to talk or anything, I've had no interest to check social media at all, so that's all been great. Going forward, I'm going to try to remember your advice OR of living life and just naturally finding practice to be more validating and empathetic etc, hopefully doing so with a bunch of new people will help with that.

She even text me out of the blue last night with a random message, so nice to know she was at least thinking of me. Our flat tenancy ends this weekend, I'm not entirely sure what will happen after that. I am also not sure if I will see her at all as part of the ending of the tenancy process, but I at least feel in an okay enough place to not feel too disheartened by that, I'm happy to just get on with things. I hope that pulling back a little will help somewhat. Giving her a little more space feels like it probably isn't a terrible idea while there is still resentment there anyway!

[once removed]

hows it going now? any update?

[dumpedinlove]

hows it going now? any update?

I'd say a good few things have happened since my last post. I'll try and briefly summarise the key stuff!

I pulled back a bit and I wasn't texting her too much, and then last friday (2 days before the end of the tenancy), she text me about the flat, but then she quickly began asking me where I live and stuff and also started bringing up relationship stuff. It was good I thought that she had brought it up, and was saying how hurt she was that I "cheated" on her and then also lied about it. But she would say it and then pull right back in a way and would follow up these points with that she "will never ever be treated the way I treated her ever ever again", that she genuinely believes she will experience something far better, and that she does care but everything I've said isn't enough. I'm not sure if she was trying to bait me as it sounds like she firmly wants no relationship but will still say stuff like that. In fact, the way she brought it up was out of the blue saying "I haven't seen you since I found out you cheated on me have I?" which I thought was a super weird thing to say personally. Curious as to your thoughts on this interaction!

Then came Sunday, last day of the tenancy. Astoundingly, she agreed to meet, something I did not expect. I hugged her hello and gave her a kiss on the cheek, but she very swiftly became very frosty. She didn't want to talk about anything, so I said thats fine, but I'd like to apologise etc so I did. She said it means nothing to her and that its all forgotten (although it clearly has not been forgotten). But then she did go on to start saying how hurt she was by it all. I did not JADE at all which I was proud of, I simply took everything she said and was contrite. I apologised and said I would not justify it. I told her I did miss her but she told me she didn't. We began to part ways and she just said bye and walked back into the flat. I asked if we could at least hug and she declined. A minute later I realised I needed to give her my keys, so went back in. We briefly spoke again and she said she didn't think it would be as frosty as it was, but that she felt unable to say 2 words to me so thought she might not have been as ready as she thought. She promised we would talk at some point, but not now (I assume she means when she is totally over me?). So yeah, could've gone better but I think I handled it okay and thats all I really can do I think?

We had a brief chat over text yesterday as well. She said that what we had was beautiful but that it isn't that she doesn't feel we can repair things, its that she doesn't want to. She wants the life she has now and is happier than she has been for years. I replied with a messaged basically saying I would have been happy to take things as slow as she wanted, with her living her full life and us sorting things out in the moments in between, but that I'm happy to listen to her too. She simply said she doesnt want that and its as simple as that. I simply said sure and that I understand and am glad she's happy, and left it at that. Think I handled it ok?

Final little update is a bit of a weird one I'm really trying to wrap my head around. She's deleted every photo off every social media. Not just ones with me in it, but a complete purge. Changed her profile pictures too like a total reset. I'm really confused by it, it seems like an odd move. I happened to see she was posting some song lyrics from various songs about being saved by someone, so maybe she's with someone and it felt like a total new start for her, but I have no idea. I'd be tempted to ask her if she's seeing someone but I think she would either just not tell me or take it the wrong way somehow. But yeah, can't make sense of any of it right now

[once removed]

youre still in a similar place, from where im sitting. thats neither a good nor a bad thing, per se, more of a "could be worse".

everything shes telling you is still a bit of protesting too much, an indication of residual feelings.

bottom line is shes talking to you an awful lot, and telling you "shes so done" an awful lot, for a guy shes so done with (thats what i mean by "could be worse"). she also indicated things will be revisited (again).

its not very clear how you responded to all of this (the give and take). the one thing i would say is dont over apologize. theres a difference between being contrite and "youre right, im a terrible person and i did wrong". you dont want to bend over backwards to give credence to the latter, reinforce it. you want to understand why shes upset (i think you do, at this point), you dont want to apologize for stepping on a crack and breaking her mothers back.

i would also be more detached when it comes to relationship talk. dont push for a hug or kiss. dont push for a talk. if she initiates, id let her talk, id give a (only slightly more heartfelt version of) "that sucks", and id redirect or change the subject. its circular and not productive at this point. she tells you how much you suck, you agree you suck, you promise better, she says "thats nice but nah". you just dont want to keep going down that road. move in a different, more upbeat direction.

She's deleted every photo off every social media. Not just ones with me in it, but a complete purge. Changed her profile pictures too like a total reset. I'm really confused by it, it seems like an odd move. I happened to see she was posting some song lyrics from various songs about being saved by someone, so maybe she's with someone and it felt like a total new start for her, but I have no idea. I'd be tempted to ask her if she's seeing someone but I think she would either just not tell me or take it the wrong way somehow. But yeah, can't make sense of any of it right now

people frequently present a "fresh, new" version of themselves after a breakup, especially on social media. at this point, i wouldnt read more into it than that. i most definitely wouldnt inquire.

[dumpedinlove]

youre still in a similar place, from where im sitting. thats neither a good nor a bad thing, per se, more of a "could be worse".

everything shes telling you is still a bit of protesting too much, an indication of residual feelings.

bottom line is shes talking to you an awful lot, and telling you "shes so done" an awful lot, for a guy shes so done with (thats what i mean by "could be worse"). she also indicated things will be revisited (again).

its not very clear how you responded to all of this (the give and take). the one thing i would say is dont over apologize. theres a difference between being contrite and "youre right, im a terrible person and i did wrong". you dont want to bend over backwards to give credence to the latter, reinforce it. you want to understand why shes upset (i think you do, at this point), you dont want to apologize for stepping on a crack and breaking her mothers back.

i would also be more detached when it comes to relationship talk. dont push for a hug or kiss. dont push for a talk. if she initiates, id let her talk, id give a (only slightly more heartfelt version of) "that sucks", and id redirect or change the subject. its circular and not productive at this point. she tells you how much you suck, you agree you suck, you promise better, she says "thats nice but nah". you just dont want to keep going down that road. move in a different, more upbeat direction.

Things have been more detached lately since the tenancy ended, especially with relationship talk which hasn't really happened. But I kind of take that as not a terrible thing because as you say, it becomes circular and goes nowhere if the dynamic remains the same. We still talk every now and again, even just yesterday she text me out of the blue to tell me she thinks we may get our deposit back soon. I don't think there was any need for that message other than to make conversation to be honest. She's told me she has been having a difficult time lately, I believe it is from the amount of hours she is working, so perhaps messages like that from her bring her a moment of solace, but who knows.

She told me a couple of days ago that she doesn't text me when she thinks of me because I told her I wanted to cut ties if she didn't want to be together. I wasn't sure how to respond, as there's an internal conflict of wondering if cutting ties fully will make any chance (if any) of rekindling worse. I told her that whilst she isn't dating anyone, I don't want to cut ties, because I do still love her after all. But that if that changed, it would likely be too painful. I also said I know the last time we saw each other was difficult, but if she would ever like to meet and talk (not necessarily about "us") then I would like that. She said she would let me know when she is ready, and also that she is more than happy for me to reach out to her whenever.

It's difficult to say what state things are in, but in some ways it almost feels like things are slipping away. That's probably anxiety talking, as really the only change is that we are talking a little less, which is natural I suppose. I'm not too sure if that needs to change if there's any chance of starting fresh though or not.

people frequently present a "fresh, new" version of themselves after a breakup, especially on social media. at this point, i wouldnt read more into it than that. i most definitely wouldnt inquire.

Heeded the advice here and did not inquire, happy to read into it as you say as a fresh start thing.

[once removed]

She told me a couple of days ago that she doesn't text me when she thinks of me because I told her I wanted to cut ties if she didn't want to be together. I wasn't sure how to respond, as there's an internal conflict of wondering if cutting ties fully will make any chance (if any) of rekindling worse. I told her that whilst she isn't dating anyone, I don't want to cut ties, because I do still love her after all. But that if that changed, it would likely be too painful. I also said I know the last time we saw each other was difficult, but if she would ever like to meet and talk (not necessarily about "us") then I would like that. She said she would let me know when she is ready, and also that she is more than happy for me to reach out to her whenever.

shes saying "i feel like talking to you is conditional". at the end of the day, it is.

its been a while! any update?

[dumpedinlove]

shes saying "i feel like talking to you is conditional". at the end of the day, it is.

its been a while! any update?

It has been a little while yes! To sum up, still single!

We had a couple of text chats since my last post. The biggest one we discussed change and everything and she asked was asking me if I have changed, why wouldn't she choose someone who hasn't betrayed her and treated her like garbage (her words). Tough to answer, but the fact that she asked it felt okay as it was almost accepting of the fact that things could be different.

However, there is still a lot of resentment there for sure. She still says it makes her feel sick with disgust thinking about the kiss. She says she is a woman of her word and that there will never be anything romantic between us again because of it.

It was her birthday recently as well, a tough day for me if I'm honest. I said happy birthday, then after a short conversation I sent her a message while reminiscing and I suppose in pain. It read something like "from taking you hot air ballooning, to taking you to Rome, to even the bed 'bouncing like no tomorrow', I never thought I would spend this day not with you. Regardless I hope you have an amazing day". (note: the bouncing line was something she said to me exactly post breakup at some point in reference to that day).  No comment was made about this for nearly 2 weeks, when randomly she brought it up. Said nobody who cared about her would send emotionally manipulative stuff like that. That she felt physically sick because why would I even bring up sex. That this stuff makes her sure of her decision even more. And that I dont even realise how manipulative I am. I explained that I was uncertain what she felt I was trying to manipulate her how to feel. But it has made me deeply question if saying that was manipulative or not. I still don't know really, but either way I tried to not JADE, just recognised that was how she felt and tried to assure her I had no intentions of manipulation.

I've made a few other mistakes I think in recent times. Firstly, she messaged late one evening out of the blue with a very random question, which lead to light hearted conversation. Eventually she said she was at her parents house but they had gone away so she was on her own, and also that she has struggled to cook for herself. I offered to drive down and cook her her favourite meal. She said its okay, perhaps a bit full on given we havent seen much of each other in 5 months. I said okay, and offered to drive down and maybe just go for a walk. Again she said its okay. At this point I should have stopped, but I offered to drive down and just leave her favourite meal in tupperware at her door for her. At this point she said she felt overwhelmed and doesn't feel ready to talk. I apologised and backed off, but recognised I had pushed too hard and regretted it.

The most recent mistake happened 2 days ago. I'd felt there was a lot I wanted to say. She has said she will let me know when she's ready to talk, but I think what she means is that she will be ready when she is over me or something. So I wrote a letter, it was fairly long, and didn't feel right to send in a text so I hand wrote it. The night before I sent it, I said I had written it and was going to pop it in the mail to her parents house, and that if she isn't there then they can forward, and if she doesn't want it they can just bin it. She didn't reply until late the next day, at which point I had just posted it. She was not happy I had sent it at all. Very annoyed and said I was out of line. Went from initially saying she isn't ready to read it right now as she has taken time off work for mental health, to saying she isn't going to read it and I should leave her alone. She has asked for no communication (except for stuff in regards to old flat) for the next few weeks so she can focus on herself. Perhaps I shouldn't have sent the letter, maybe it was a bit of a hail mary thing to do. But to be honest she is as stubborn as a mule and the letter wasn't pushing for anything more than to not refuse any chance to show her something different because she wants to stick to her word.

So that's kind of where we are at. Currently not talking as of today, for at the very least a few weeks I assume. Feels like I have messed up which isn't nice, and not really sure where to go from here. But I will be heeding her message of no messages as that is what she has asked for.

[once removed]

It was her birthday recently as well, a tough day for me if I'm honest. I said happy birthday, then after a short conversation I sent her a message while reminiscing and I suppose in pain. It read something like "from taking you hot air ballooning, to taking you to Rome, to even the bed 'bouncing like no tomorrow', I never thought I would spend this day not with you. Regardless I hope you have an amazing day".
...
when randomly she brought it up. Said nobody who cared about her would send emotionally manipulative stuff like that.
...
But it has made me deeply question if saying that was manipulative or not.

"i miss all the good times i had with you, and i miss screwing you. it sucks that im not there, but happy birthday."

is what she probably heard 

At this point she said she felt overwhelmed and doesn't feel ready to talk.

I'd felt there was a lot I wanted to say. She has said she will let me know when she's ready to talk, but I think what she means is that she will be ready when she is over me or something. So I wrote a letter
...
She was not happy I had sent it at all. Very annoyed and said I was out of line. Went from initially saying she isn't ready to read it right now as she has taken time off work for mental health, to saying she isn't going to read it and I should leave her alone.
[/quote]

dil, i dont mean to kick you while youre down; i say all of this to help, and i say it as a guy that has been the king of over pursuing in most of my relationships, or potential relationships.

the potential has existed to get back together, for an abnormal (long) period of time, and its an abnormal situation where a gal says shes done, it would be breaking her word to get back with you, and yet, she has frequent conversations with you that a "gal thats done" simply wouldnt have.

but every step of the way, you are sabotaging yourself. she states her case, you counter with your perspective. she says "this is too much", you double down. she doesnt feel ready to talk, but theres a lot you want to say.

youve simply got to read her, man. shes not only rejecting this approach each time, shes telling you that its further confirmation not to get back together.

cutting off all contact isnt a great sign, but its what youve been dealt, and heeding it (full stop) can thaw some of the ice. without radical and drastic change, though, its just pushing pause.

let this be a wake up call. read her. change your approach - not to what you think will regain control or convince her, but to one that accepts uncertainty.

[dumpedinlove]

but every step of the way, you are sabotaging yourself. she states her case, you counter with your perspective. she says "this is too much", you double down. she doesnt feel ready to talk, but theres a lot you want to say.

youve simply got to read her, man. shes not only rejecting this approach each time, shes telling you that its further confirmation not to get back together.

cutting off all contact isnt a great sign, but its what youve been dealt, and heeding it (full stop) can thaw some of the ice. without radical and drastic change, though, its just pushing pause.

let this be a wake up call. read her. change your approach - not to what you think will regain control or convince her, but to one that accepts uncertainty.

I understand exactly what you mean. I think I go through phases, I'll accept uncertainty and act that way, but then in some shape or form will eventually come back to feeling like I need to do something to get her back. I understand that that isn't what is needed here. I think I get to that place because the reason we broke up was that I wasn't putting her as a priority in my life I guess, and so the balance of rectifying that and showing it but at the same time to I suppose be more casual towards it feels difficult to balance out correctly.

I will heed the no contact for a few weeks as she asked. Hopefully doing that is a step towards accepting uncertainty. Going past that point, assuming there is some form of contact, does accepting uncertainty look like just not bringing up the relationship, keeping it very casual when we speak, or is it something different that I am missing?

[dumpedinlove]

Just a minor update, I am almost certain she had me muted on Instagram, but today I saw she watched my stories (just 2 scenic shots of me exploring) which means she would have gone on my page and seen some nice photos of me recently too. An hour or so after I noticed, she unfollowed me and removed me as a follower of her (I had her muted too). A little bit depressing to be honest. Hard to know if she did that because she misses me or something and it was difficult seeing that for her, or if it was the total opposite and she feels nothing and thought there was no point in it. Weirdly it was just Instagram she did it on, so difficult to know what to think but overall not the best thing to experience :/

[once removed]

im the kind of guy that tends to eschew overreading social media moves.

im also the kind of guy that has made them.

as a rule, i dont unfriend anyone. i unfollow if someone is posting something that is bothering me. and im the first guy to unfollow an ex if im hurting, and do my damndest to stay away.

but ive also looked at my exs social media, many, many times, years after our breakup.

i would tend to think that your ex looked, and decided that looking isnt for her, right now. more than likely, it hurt.

its neither to say stop posting, stop posting what youre posting, or that the interpretation, good or bad, is the right one.

shes actively trying to detach. shes not detached.

[dumpedinlove]

shes actively trying to detach. shes not detached.

In many ways, I hope this is right.

It's been a little while, wanted to share where things are at. Quick minor update on social media, she deleted her instagram account and made a fresh (private) one, but we are still friends on facebook, although I'm sure we both have the settings set to not show much of each other.

Anyway, previously she asked for some space. I did indeed heed that as best I could, although a few weeks into it I asked how she was (as I knew things hadn't been amazing for her mentally). She didn't respond, so I went NC again. A couple of weeks ago, she rang me out of the blue, something we haven't done in months. She called to basically say she knows we are on different pages, and that she space is so I can get over her. That she wants to be friends at some point, but not until I'm over her. And that she felt that what drove that was that I would "spiral" whenever we would talk, and things would end up talking about us. Also, she pushed that she wants nothing to do with me romantically and is very happy now. Overall, it was a long phone call and we discussed a lot, and I felt okay afterwards. I just wasn't sure why she made the call.

Over the past few weeks since, she has messaged me about 3 or 4 times bringing up random stuff (e.g. asking if she can give a pillow of mine that she has away, or if we paid all our bills from the old flat). Similarly, I've text her twice. The first was a few weeks ago, where I wanted to clarify that I didn't think I had "spiralled" in a very long time, and that ultimately I wish her utter happiness. The second was yesterday, I asked about some money we were expecting and kept it very very short and to the point. I probably could have avoided texting her that, but I have felt a lot lower these past couple of days and have very much missed her.

I feel almost at a loss of what to do. A possible good thing is that the resentment of the big kiss seemed to have faded. However, when we speak, she always pushes the idea that I never understood her. I'm very much inclined to disagree as I felt I always understood her well (hence a longish relationship), but have reached the point where I am happy to listen and be wrong. That's where I'm at a loss. She asked for space previously, and I guess wants to keep that until "I'm over her", and it sort of feels like the radical change needed from the breakup is that I needed to listen to her and understand her more. So I'm giving her the space, or at least trying my best to. I try to maintain NC as best I can, despite the difficulties of it. But at the same time, I can't help but think that not speaking isn't productive. There's a conflict of I can listen to her and understand her, but by doing so I remove myself from the equation, which doesn't feel comfortable internally. For now, I suppose I will continue NC as best as I can as listening to her at the end of the day is what she wants. But I can never shake the feeling that even though I want to take the path to do all I can to repair things, it feels like I am walking the path of giving up.

[dumpedinlove]

Little update, nothing good though.

I read an old argument in our chat, and realised that in June 2019 she was having some doubt about me as we were having petty arguments. She threatened to leave and we talked it through. I reached out to her on Saturday, it was probably just an excuse to talk to her, but I wanted to apologise for not reading the signs and radically changing when it mattered. I asked if I could talk to her, and she was happy to talk, so I sent a voice note with the apology and also a little bit of stuff around how I do understand her (that I can, but wasn't doing so out of stubbornness and selfishness), but ultimately I really want her to be happy. She listened to it, but said she still doesn't agree that I could understand her. I told her I understood, because from her perspective me not being able to understand her, and me choosing not to realistically looked like the same thing. I said I wasn't the same person I was, and she said she wasn't either. She asked why would she "give a second chance over ever other guy out there who hasn't really PLEASE READing hurt her, driven her insane and treated her life like PLEASE READ while travelling for a girl who he ended up kissing the second she took a break from him". She followed that up with saying she isn't interested in ever giving us a second chance. And that she would love to be friends, but doesn't think we are there yet.

We had some back and forth after this, me trying to actually answer her question about a second chance. But ultimately she was completely closed off. Saying we have completely different outlooks on life. That it all takes two people and she isn't there. That nothing I can say to her can change her mind over what she considers right. That she really is never going to be open to it ever. And finally that she thinks I'm a great guy and wants the best for me. During the discussion, I wasn't forceful of my rhetoric, I was very understanding of hers, and I left things without pushing them too far.

But I feel at a loss. I know the advice given to me. Accept uncertainty. But this doesn't feel like uncertainty. When she is that closed off, it feels like certainty. She doesn't seem angry anymore, she almost seems kind. It feels a bit like everything is still slipping away and I'm just a spectator.

I wrote a letter out to her that I was going to send as a voice note. But I remembered your advice once_removed saying:

but every step of the way, you are sabotaging yourself. she states her case, you counter with your perspective. she says "this is too much", you double down. she doesnt feel ready to talk, but theres a lot you want to say.

I don't want to get to the same point of her saying this is too much. There's still a lot I want to say, but given that once piece of advice, I haven't said it. And that's painful and difficult to do if I'm honest. I've tried to read her as best as I can, and from what I can read, she is completely closed, and that's because she believes I am unable to understand her. In my letter, I wrote about ways I do understand her. And I feel they're all valid, but again, I don't want to overwhelm her. I feel completely stuck, unable to show her that I understand her because by even bringing up how I understand everything that happened in the past, it's as if I don't understand she wants nothing romantic. But at the same time, without bringing it up, she holds onto that view forever. I'm going to sit on the message for a couple of days at least, that feels like the right thing to do. I just don't know how to repair things with someone unwilling to listen or consider the possibility that I have put in the work to be a better suited partner.

[once removed]

theres some general advice given on this board that suggests considering the old relationship dead, and any potential new iteration, to be like a new relationship.

i think that its time to see things that way, but radically so.

to really let the relationship go emotionally, and grieve it. let go of hope. to, as much as you can, get the idea of a relationship with her out of your heart and out of your mind.

thats what shes really telling you. she doesnt want the old relationship. she doesnt want second chances. youre offering a return to the old relationship, "but better this time". 2.0. she doesnt want that.

the only response to that is to take her at her word, and hat in hand, emotionally move on. its also the ultimate validating thing to do.

conversely, doing so is your best, and probably only shot.

dont get me wrong: this cant be a last trick up your sleeve where you show her youve changed. its been many months; that hasnt happened.

you would genuinely need to abandon hope, grieve the relationship, commit emotionally to moving on, and becoming your best self. thats not something that can be faked, or proven. when its genuine, though, it can be very attractive.

i dont see another choice. the path has dead ended, and left you stuck in hurt.

[dumpedinlove]

you would genuinely need to abandon hope, grieve the relationship, commit emotionally to moving on, and becoming your best self. thats not something that can be faked, or proven. when its genuine, though, it can be very attractive.

i dont see another choice. the path has dead ended, and left you stuck in hurt.

Thank you for your advice, it is something I have always appreciated. I read your comment and had a good think today, and came to the conclusion that I agreed. The relationship talk with her wasn't working, it is time for serious change and whatever future that brings.

I thought about it and decided that for my sake (not for the sake of the relationship), I would send her one more message and one message only. I recorded a voice note. I said to her that I had no intention of changing her mind, I accept that she does not want a fresh start. For my own closure, I said that I loved her, and that I always supported her, and that I made mistakes and have recognised and grown from that. But that I know she never wants to have a fresh start, regardless of what I say or do. And that that's okay, and that I will accept that and let go. That I understand what she feels, and why she is feeling it, and that I wish her the best and that I will not bring up anything more in terms of "us". That this is it now.

She initially responded fine, saying "all the best" with a love heart. But a short while later, she opened up communication again asking me if this could be the last one. I could tell I had overwhelmed her again as I am apt to do, but it was different this time. This time it was for me, not to win her back. She told me the constant bombardment of emotionally manipulative notes has not done me any favours. That she likes me, but doesn't like my behaviour and that the more I do, the more sure she is she wants to stay away from me. She also said she always wanted to be my friend but my manipulative messages make it impossible. That it is childish, and that everything has been about me since breaking up. That I've got what I wanted. Some more talk happened and we ended both saying we hope we can speak soon.

Again, I understand this overwhelmed her a bit. I did not double down though, I accepted. I don't know if I'll ever understand how sending a message for closure and saying I accept how you feel and will leave things at that is manipulative. Perhaps it's me that's the issue here, I feel like I'm crazy but maybe it really is me. Regardless, I sent the message to cement the fact that there is one hand left to play, which is to grieve. Maybe in doing so I burnt some bridges. Maybe sending that last message was a mistake, but it felt relieving to send and it felt right. At the end of the day, what's done is done, and going forward I will not be bringing it up with her. The time for that has passed I feel. I don't know where the path goes from here, but it feels like something that I can let go of trying to control. I still love her and want to be with her, so I hope one day things by some miracle work out. But I guess the best thing to do now is almost pretend she doesn't exist and go NC.