He tossed out insults at the slightest pushback Part 5

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345348.0;all

[Edit/Addendum: I think one way to see ff's "optimism" is just as optimism that you can get to a point where you can make a decision about what to do without feeling exhausted and angry and resentful. The focus on your H and your feelings being conditional on what he does might be keeping you exhausted, angry, and resentful. The advice to focus on yourself and self-care is not about you changing how you feel about him or even what you want to do right now. It's about being in a place where you can be better in touch with your own thoughts/feelings/beliefs, take ownership of those, and answer the question "what do I do with that" from slightly more stable ground. As it is, part of what I see happening is that there might be some part of you that is disappointed in any change your H might make because it makes it harder to justify you wanting to leave. Again, I completely get that. But if you let go of using your H's behavior as a justification and instead just focus on you and what you believe the right decision is based on your thoughts/feelings/etc., it might make for a better atmosphere for decisioin-making. (Still not sure if any of that makes sense.)]
 

Hi stolencrumbs,

Thank you. I know FF is here to help. And, I believe he has shown me many amazing tools and has been an awesome cheerleader/advocate.

He has affected positive changes in his relationship dynamic with some funky issues. I am no expert, but although much behavior is far out there, it doesn’t seem to contain a menacing undertone or even have the pervasiveness I believe I am dealing with. His wife has also been willing to see some of her part in things. FF may just be wholly better at communicating, holding boundaries, effecting change, but ultimately for me that doesn’t matter because I am still in my situation.

And, I get owning my feelings. This is where I am...

I intellectually understand he is most likely uNPD with a sprinkling of uBPD.

For 25 years I took him at his word. Until recently, I had not caught him in a lie — more recently the lies are embellishments of his career or background. Hard to prove. He hasn’t cheated (I believe recently some chatting on FB and possible attempts to find replacement...speculation).

For the first say 15 years the biggest issue was a temper a few times a year and from the kids perspective a bit too overprotective.  I thought as they got older this would correct with input from me. As they reached dating age, it intensified in the dating arena.

He had a big professional disappointment about 7 years ago. I never put it together until recently with much help here (I helped him through that period), but it’s when the rages and name calling really picked up momentum. I had little kids AND two heading off to college. I suppose I was treading water and believed he would return to manageable once stressors were removed. I struggled to understand. It didn’t make sense. It scared me...and scarred me. The last year has been most intense. I believe connected to oldest out of college and leaving and second in last year (newly minted graduate).  Maybe some parent-child abandonment?  Idk.

But recognizing that he was able to hide this away when everything was going his way, but unleash it when it wasn’t. Initially I understood it was lashing out after a disappointment.  It never occurred to me that it would continue. It’s almost like an addict, the release gave him so much so he kept ramping it up and I just became more confused.

So here I am. Finally understanding what has happened. Trying to decide IF it can be better and IF I’m willing to continue trying.

I wrestle with it.

I want a loving, supportive relationship
I want acceptance of who I am...even with all my imperfections
I want mutual respect
I don’t want to have to change to make someone happy (happy to grow in new directions of my choosing)


There may be more. I’m happy with a simple life where my kids are fed, can get a good nights sleep and are healthy, both physically and emotionally. I’m good with that.  That’s what I want.

And even now, I stop and think that I’ve said these things to my H and he hasn’t cared.

So that’s how I feel.

Thanks stolencrumbs...I hope you are safe and strong and get out of life what YOU need. Bless you for weighing in.

[formflier]

And even now, I stop and think that I’ve said these things to my H and he hasn’t cared.

I hope we can agree on some "axioms" regarding life with a pwBPD.

1.  While at first glance it appears they speak the same language, upon further inspection they "process" language and communication VASTLY different from nons, essentially meaning we speak two different languages.

2.  Change (especially positive change), takes a long time with a pwBPD and is inconsistent.


First of all.  Any pushback on those axioms?

Second, if we accept those axioms, what is the impact on the quote above (evaluating the quote)

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I hope we can agree on some "axioms" regarding life with a pwBPD.

1.  While at first glance it appears they speak the same language, upon further inspection they "process" language and communication VASTLY different from nons, essentially meaning we speak two different languages.

2.  Change (especially positive change), takes a long time with a pwBPD and is inconsistent.


First of all.  Any pushback on those axioms?

Second, if we accept those axioms, what is the impact on the quote above (evaluating the quote)

Best,

FF

No pushback. It’s a miracle I’ve made it this long not realizing this.

I can accept that he’s looking at a totally different world.

I’m not stupid BUT I am not cut out for this. I’m interesting to a point, but God help me, I’m pretty much a what-you-see-is-what-you-get kind of person. I don’t do complicated (ugh, ugh, ugh).

So, when I say I prefer a simpler life where I don’t have to worry about bills and extra stuff, but he wants to feel “alive”, these seem face value. He is saying it. Sure, I like a vacation and a new car, who doesn’t?  But I prefer being able to sleep at night. If we can wrangle more, I’m all for it.

And for a long time we did. But no willingness to make a sacrifice. It made him feel alive. He told me many times he didn’t want me to feel financially stable. He needed vacations. Even now, we had a trip planned and he simply says “I was supposed to be on vacation right now.”

Not we. Not gee this has been a tough year, it’s not safe to travel far and we’re financially behind the eight ball. Nope, he’s missing out on a vacation he’s owed because...

It’s not about money or vacations. So much bigger. These aren’t even the rants that matter. They are just a representation of how vastly different we see things.

So, yes, I can accept the axioms are true.

The result of them is another story.  

Thanks FF.

[formflier]

Hey...

You may or may not be cut out for this.  From where I'm sitting, I'm going to give an "above average" for listening and taking leaps of faith (doing things differently).

Whether or not you decide to continue your marriage, my prayer for you is that you are able to say "I can do this, even so I choose a different path because I (fill in blank...I would suggest "I'm worth it")"


Switching gears:  Yes I'm an optimist and yes I like happy endings, so  there is obviously a part of me that "wants" that for you and your relationship.

My primary source of optimism and hope for you is that you "get" boundaries and the POWER they hand to you over your own life, your relationship and your husband.

Yes...hands you power over your husband. 

So...tie that together with my insistence that you "see" that he has changed and continues to change. 

Think deeply about the reasons for his change (yes...now I'm encouraging you to mind read some).

Last:  Your starting to get the alternate way to live your life.

Let's sum it up.

Old you was a "because he" person.

You are turning into a "because I" person.

It's a process...keep pushing.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hey...

You may or may not be cut out for this.  From where I'm sitting, I'm going to give an "above average" for listening and taking leaps of faith (doing things differently).

Whether or not you decide to continue your marriage, my prayer for you is that you are able to say "I can do this, even so I choose a different path because I (fill in blank...I would suggest "I'm worth it")"


Switching gears:  Yes I'm an optimist and yes I like happy endings, so  there is obviously a part of me that "wants" that for you and your relationship.

My primary source of optimism and hope for you is that you "get" boundaries and the POWER they hand to you over your own life, your relationship and your husband.

Yes...hands you power over your husband. 

So...tie that together with my insistence that you "see" that he has changed and continues to change. 

Think deeply about the reasons for his change (yes...now I'm encouraging you to mind read some).

Last:  Your starting to get the alternate way to live your life.

Let's sum it up.

Old you was a "because he" person.

You are turning into a "because I" person.

It's a process...keep pushing.

Best,

FF

Hi FF,

Thank you. I don’t believe he is capable of true change. I also believe the boundaries I have to set will be a full time job.

That said, I also know I haven’t had any true boundaries with him in a long time. But I’ve endured a lot and I just don’t know if I want to keep putting in the effort when he doesn’t really care about me.

Couple of things...the dishes and the fast food bags remain. Can you truly believe it?  I’ve documented it. It is disgusting and unbelievable. He will NOT pick up one thing for himself. It is a NPD power play.

Secondly, he’s getting bitten in the financial butt now. He’s trying to twist the story.  It’s hard because there’s a sliver of truth, but regardless 95% is a twist. It’s also something I discussed and warned him about pre-pandemic and he chose to ignore. He can no longer.

He keeps telling me I can pay for stuff because I have a job. I have no problem contributing, but on my best day I make 1/4 of what he does (or did when he bothered to work). He maxed out house and cars (I didn’t want to but he made more money and assured he would cover these things — wish I understood PDs then, ugh) and now just can’t really bother to try to fix. He’s told me he’ll go into the office 3 times, but always puts it off. He’s told me his income is returning. It hasn’t.

Now I’m working full time and still doing all household stuff except what my kiddos help with — varying based on age, but they still pitch in.

He occasionally throws out a paper plate he uses. He doesn’t get the kids up or help younger get food.  I still do all of that.

He’s “working” from home. He started working when I started my new job and he sits on the computer exactly the hours I do, which may vary by an hour or so. Interesting. And, I’ve heard for 20 years that he only works a few hours a day and then goofs off the rest. Made a lot of money so he just put in his time and then surfed the web or went to lunch with a friend. Whatever. Interesting how now he’s got a full 9 hour day as soon as I started working again.

Whatever. It doesn’t matter.  Just an observation.

And ultimately I meant to say, he’s trying to reel me in on this re-emerged financial issue. I am staying out of it and letting him figure it out. Boundary. This has some potential for him to dysregulate.  Maybe he’ll rise up and take care of it. Will have to wait and see.

[formflier]

Have you asked him directly to remove the fast food items (the long term items he has left out)?

Have you asked him directly for a couple other things he can do around the house?

How did the conversation/question go with the kiddos so that they would start stepping up?  How much was you reaching out compared to them spontaneously doing more?

Bravo for you letting those items stay right where they are..

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Putting in the effort to work on boundaries is not for him or his benefit -- it's for you and your long-term benefit.

[InPurgatory]

UBPDHelp,

I have been following your story since the beginning.  It's eerie how much it parallels my own at this point in time - the job situation and work ethic, the financial situation, the put-downs, the name calling, the mood cycles, and even the dirty plates and fast food bags.  Currently there is a pile of dirtied pots and pans sitting on the kitchen counter that haven't been cleaned in over 10 weeks because my uBPDh is "protesting" (my guess) his having to cook meals for himself after I resigned from the position of chief cook.  Or who knows, it could be for any of a number of reasons     That's the second time in the past year that it has happened.  I'm also to the stage where I am ready to call it quits, but am currently stuck due to Covid-19. 

I'm sorry that I don't have anything really to offer here, as I am new to the site (been lurking for a while), but I wanted to let you know that I appreciate how open you are with your updates because it helps me to see that I am not alone in dealing with this kind of situation.

Also, many thanks to FF, 'Ducks, GaGirl, Cat and others that have been providing feedback through this process.  It has been helpful to UBPDHelp, myself, and many others.  I've been able to take your advice to UBPDHelp and apply it to my own situation in many cases.

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp,

I have been following your story since the beginning.  It's eerie how much it parallels my own at this point in time - the job situation and work ethic, the financial situation, the put-downs, the name calling, the mood cycles, and even the dirty plates and fast food bags.  Currently there is a pile of dirtied pots and pans sitting on the kitchen counter that haven't been cleaned in over 10 weeks because my uBPDh is "protesting" (my guess) his having to cook meals for himself after I resigned from the position of chief cook.  Or who knows, it could be for any of a number of reasons     That's the second time in the past year that it has happened.  I'm also to the stage where I am ready to call it quits, but am currently stuck due to Covid-19. 

I'm sorry that I don't have anything really to offer here, as I am new to the site (been lurking for a while), but I wanted to let you know that I appreciate how open you are with your updates because it helps me to see that I am not alone in dealing with this kind of situation.

Also, many thanks to FF, 'Ducks, GaGirl, Cat and others that have been providing feedback through this process.  It has been helpful to UBPDHelp, myself, and many others.  I've been able to take your advice to UBPDHelp and apply it to my own situation in many cases.

Hi InPurgatory,

Thank you for the reply. I’m happy you found me/us, but, of course, sorry for what brings you here.

I agree...I feel better knowing there are others who have experienced this. This has been a tough journey. I feel like I’ve personally progressed so much and many times feel I have so much further to go.

All the advisors here have been amazing. Every view is covered. Patient guidance and redirection when needed. Seeing things from many sides is helpful. Always my decision, but direct honesty that is needed.

Many times I’ve wished someone would just tell me to run...or what to do. Probably some so I wouldn’t have to make a decision and much because I’ve just struggled to come to terms with it and the impact on my whole family. Struggle I did.

But there has always been someone, often many, to pick me up. Often not what I want to hear but what I NEEDED to hear.

We all get here different ways and for different reasons, but we found each other looking for support and sharing support.

This is an amazing place. You are always welcome to share your story. Sometimes doing so provides a huge amount of relief. A deep breath. And, sharing, at least for me, helped me work through places I was stuck...sorry there were quite a few and some I just couldn’t let go of.

If you’re up for it, or when you are, please start a thread to share your story. Whatever you are comfortable with. I have survived much of the last few months because so many people helped me. I want you to have that same level of support. No pressure, just give it some thought.

I don’t know how much of my story you’ve read...it’s pretty bad, embarrassing, horrific and just all around awful.  No one batted an eye or uttered one thing to make me more ashamed or embarrassed. Quite the contrary. My point is, if I couldn’t make them blush, it’s a pretty safe place.

Again no pressure. 

[UBPDHelp]

Have you asked him directly to remove the fast food items (the long term items he has left out)?

No, this was indirect, but too much time passed now so it sits.  

Have you asked him directly for a couple other things he can do around the house?

Yes, it’s hit or miss. He may do it once and then not again. He’s an adult, the garbage needs to go out everyday. I can do it sometimes, but instead do it all the time.

How did the conversation/question go with the kiddos so that they would start stepping up?  How much was you reaching out compared to them spontaneously doing more?

I’ve always asked them to do age appropriate things. Keep their rooms picked up, dishwasher, etc.  I did chores as a kid, I think everyone should pitch in.

When I started my new job I let them know that we all needed to do our part and gave them a run down of the things I check for and asked them to help. Not do it all, but if they see they could sweep, please do. Empty the dishwasher, please do. Fold the towels, please do. And they do help. It makes it more manageable.

H looks out for himself and then even not so great.

Bravo for you letting those items stay right where they are..

Best,

FF

Luckily he finished it all or it would really smell by now. It’s ridiculous.  They may petrify...so be it.

Thanks FF

[UBPDHelp]

Putting in the effort to work on boundaries is not for him or his benefit -- it's for you and your long-term benefit.

Hi GaGrl,

Thank you for reminding me every time I need it.

I will say at the start of the boundary it feels like it’s for the other person. Once you have the boundary and hold it, it feels like it is for me.

C’est la vie. Lessons are hard sometimes. Still have to learn them...and probably practice them some more.

Thank you!

[formflier]

I'm interested in your thoughts about your choice to directly engage the kiddos about what you need and indirectly engage your hubby.

Especially given that it appears direct engagement gets you acceptable results.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I'm interested in your thoughts about your choice to directly engage the kiddos about what you need and indirectly engage your hubby.

Especially given that it appears direct engagement gets you acceptable results.

Best,

FF

Well, I won’t say that you’ll agree, but here goes...

1. My kids don’t rage at me and since they were about 5, no longer stomp their feet either.
2. They have compassion for me and others
3. I have at least 5-10 years of my H going completely off the rails at the slightest (prior I had more time for household so the inequity wasn’t evident/real(?) suggestion to do these things
4. In my world there is zero possibility that a grown a$$ man doesn’t know, recognize, realize that these are his messes and his sorry butt could at the very least return them to the kitchen
5. It is a total power struggle, but he’s the only one playing

All said, I have directly asked for a few other things.  If done, it is one time, but never again unless, I suppose, I ask again. IMHO, this is another power game.

He is not dumb. He is highly intelligent, there is absolutely no way he doesn’t see the bag of garbage that needs to go out...he just thinks I should ALWAYS do it.

It could be viewed as I’ve given up, if that’s how you choose to look at it.

No, I don’t want to engage in ridiculous power struggles over garbage. The win is the acceptance that this is how it is. If our 12 yo just decides to empty the dishwasher because I’m busy and knows it helps, it’s impossible that the 50 yo hasn’t figured it out.

Remember, H likes me to feel unstable. He has tried several different ways to get me to quit my new job, and used those many times. At face value, some MIGHT seem genuine concern. But, I assure you, they are not. Been there, done that.

So, I guess my point is acceptance. I’ve accepted those fast food bags sitting in the family room. I view them as new age art just so they don’t bother me. I’ve let go of any expectation that he will change.  There’s some peace in that.

So, to answer, I no longer want to expend the energy on things that won’t change.

Yes, there have been changes with boundaries. But, so many more are needed and my options are to continue as things exist with potential dysregulations at every turn for unknown reasons OR set up enough boundaries to exist but that existence is fraught with stress and potential boundary slip OR choose neither and move along with a more peaceful existence.

I have a few months before I could potentially go anywhere smoothly (can go if I have to), so I will maintain boundaries and see where that gets me. My expectations are very low.

[babyducks]

I will say at the start of the boundary it feels like it’s for the other person. Once you have the boundary and hold it, it feels like it is for me.

All healthy relationships have boundaries. Ryan Howes, Ph.D, a clinical psychologist in Pasadena, Calif, defines a boundary as “the line where I end and someone else begins.” He likens boundaries in relationships to the boundaries around states.

“Boundaries that often fail are those that include the words ‘always,’ ‘never’ or any absolute language,” said Bridget Levy, LCPC, a therapist who works with couples.

Poor boundaries alienate you from your partner, have a double standard or try to manipulate an outcome.   Poor boundaries are threats.    "If you don't come home by 7PM I won't cook dinner."   There is an implied punishment.   

Vague boundaries also don’t work.     “Don’t spend a lot of money this month”.  Expecting your partner to 'just know' is unfair.

Personal boundaries are a separation between two people. A boundary separates you from someone else – helping you recognize that your feelings, thoughts, and actions are different than others’ and this separation means it’s okay for you to have your own feelings, thoughts, opinions, beliefs, and needs, rather than absorbing other people’s feelings or conforming to their beliefs.     Personal boundaries are NOT about power, domination, or forcing someone else to see our point of view.

If boundaries are a challenge in your relationships, you can start to strengthen them by making a list of what you’re responsible for and what you can control.

A school teacher has a boundary that she will not share personal information with her students.    This is generally accepted as a 'healthy boundary'.   It might be that because she doesn't share personal information her car isn't toilet papered on Halloween.   But that isn't the goal of the boundary.   The goal of the boundary is to create separation.  a respectful separation.

Let's look at the cup and the fast food trash.    What's the goal of the boundary here?   Was it that UBPDHelp always picked up after her H?   Is it now that UBPDHelp will never pick up this spot?    How is this a boundary?    How does this create recognition of a respectful separation of thoughts/ideas/wishes?   To me, this went from being a way too porous boundary to a way too rigid pseudo boundary.   

Putting in the effort to work on boundaries is not for him or his benefit -- it's for you and your long-term benefit.

GaGrl is right.    This isn't about correcting his behavior or forces consequences down on his head.   Learning to set  health boundaries means learning how to express your needs effectively.   In addition children learn their boundaries from their parents.    if you want to teach healthy boundaries to your kids you need to be able to model it.

allowing the trash to sit, waiting for him to be the adult and wake up and do something about it keeps you engaged in the 'great trash war of 2020'  .    it keeps the focus on him... what he is doing,...how stupid he is to not return stuff to the kitchen... the ongoing power struggle.    its passive aggressive.   there is more than a whiff of 'I'll show you' about it.   

So, I guess my point is acceptance. I’ve accepted those fast food bags sitting in the family room. I view them as new age art just so they don’t bother me. I’ve let go of any expectation that he will change.  There’s some peace in that.

I know this is hard to grasp.     measuring what you do (or don't do)  how you feel (or don't feel) from his actions or words is still defining yourself from him.

feelings do not come from the events around us.    feelings come from the way we think about the events around us.    that is a big but subtle distinction.

someone's house burns down.     one person might feel gratitude, 'oh thank goodness everyone got out safely'.   another person might feel horrible grief, 'this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me'.    a third person might feel anger, 'I hated that house since the day my father abused me,  I am so happy it burnt.'   another person might feel fear,  'where am I going to go'. 

our feelings come from our thoughts.    UBPDHelp -  I am going to ask you to feel happy.   go ahead.  I'll wait.   Make yourself feel happy.     

chances are you had to think of a memory, a very specific and detailed memory...to generate feelings of happiness.   our feelings come from our thoughts.

the more you hold tightly to thoughts about him being a grown man who is playing some power struggle game the more the game continues.

To fill the vast emptiness my action creates in him, he fills it, not to punish me, but simply to fill this enormous crater. Okay...is that what you are saying?

I liked this.    It's very spot on.   It's a start to recognizing the separation between the two of you.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Here are a couple of illustrations...

Since our “discussion” a week or two ago, he has been basically being very nice to me. Even kissing up to me. It doesn’t feel genuine at all, especially after all he has said and done.

I can be open to where that goes. I see him begin to unload but pull back. Improvement? Maybe.

I completely suspect he can hold it in for a while.  I don’t believe he can for long.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me 500x — I don’t even know then...

So, with the benefit of being nice to me, he’s now directed his release to our oldest. They are the closest and yet oldest has lots of issues with him. But oldest is his golden child and he’s often portrayed our disagreements (mine and oldest) as bigger than they are. Oldest is independent but also wants help. Oldest wants my opinion but usually only if it supports their desire...I often say I tell you the truth, not what you necessarily want to hear (only for things that have a “real” consequence). Some of this dynamic is concerning but also believe derived from house dynamic and they are exiting soon so hopeful for improvement for them. They are stressed and aware of reactions, etc.  

But H now is directing attention to oldest’s job, appearance and decision to return to work/apartment. Trying to off rail their plans and making nasty comments about plans and appearance. Much is the underhanded appearance of being helpful, but underlying attempt to unsettle.

The other day they were chatting (I was not there, oldest just came to me and told me) and H was cheerful and upbeat with them and their plans. H took a phone call and when he came back, he lit into kid one about plans and appearance. Out of what appeared to be nowhere. As if I switch had been flipped. Kid one was confused but did as I’ve suggested and just excused themself.  As it turned out it was the day he got the financial hit. Certain that was the call he took and then he took his upset out on kid one.

Thoughts?

And, here’s another example. H wanted to clean out a storage area that had become the home for a lot of junk.  I know this is shocking as he doesn’t clean anything. He’s “threatened” to clean this out as preamble for putting the house on the market and getting divorced. But, I just agreed that it needed to be done, in truth because it’s one less thing I have to do before we do separate.

There was a lot of overflow junk, not everyday garbage but all the stuff you don’t know if you’re gonna need but don’t know where to put. Much has been there for several years.

When H went away last fall for four days (a trip to a game at kid one’s college from which kid one had already graduated  ), I cleaned out this large junk room and stuff from kids rooms they didn’t need, etc., but a few things have been added.

Anyway, it was pretty easy for H to get caught up because it had just been done. Still willing to let more stuff go so he did do a lot. I had some old furniture that we had replaced for new over the years, but kept thinking our older kids might be able to use it as they were nearing moving out in 5-6 years. A couple tables, some chairs, side tables, lamps, dishes...that kind of stuff. All placed neatly in the corner.

H also had these like 60 yo chairs that were his grandmothers. They are outdated and worn. I had priced getting them reupholstered a few years ago (for him, not my style) but it was ridiculously expensive.

Point?  H threw out everything except these damn chairs. I actually thought to myself that if he kept them, it would be confirmation of his narcissism.

We talked about the plan. If we hadn’t needed/used it in years, then it could go. The older kids ended up not really needing any of it and some of it was in so-so shape.  

Everything went except those chairs. I can even respect having sentimental value and wanting to keep them. But, he’s had zero respect for anything sentimental of mine.

Both my parents are gone. I’ve tucked away a handful of things of theirs. He doesn’t know where because I believe he would throw out. He has no respect and is in some way jealous of my past.

When my dad went in for memory care, my sister sent me some things from his house. H received the package when I wasn’t home and went through it. He lost his mind and destroyed some things. This only exacerbated his hatred for her. I mean there was nothing interesting in the box, but he doesn’t want to hear or know anything about my life before him.

So, to answer any questions about the significance of his grandmother’s chairs, I do believe it is a display of narcissism.

Ultimately it doesn’t matter if I’m right or wrong...it’s what I believe and how I feel.  

[babyducks]

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me 500x — I don’t even know then...

can we back up to Howes definition of personal boundaries?

“the line where I end and someone else begins.”

where are the lines (boundaries) in these examples?   where does your Husband's boundaries start and stop?    (not being facetious)

where do your boundaries start and stop?    what are your responsible for?   what is he responsible for?   

'ducks

[formflier]

So...I'm struggling a bit about whether or not the "great trash war" should continue.  My instinct says you should not pick it up.  I also get that's potentially over simplistic.

The following might be some over explanation or perhaps justification, I'll invite the masses to weigh in.

When we are trying to change what we "always" have done, simple is likely best...for a while. 

My guess is you've figured out ways to justify doing things for him you shouldn't in the past, so now "regardless of my thoughts...I'm not touching that"...is appropriate...for a while.

So..really the discussion isn't about picking it up or not, it's about appropriate amount of time.  (isn't it?)

But wait..there's more

   Learning to set  health boundaries means learning how to express your needs effectively. 

Perhaps I went a little overboard in my advice or I was pushing to hard for the "boundary" side of things and somehow overlooked the "communicating effectively" side of things.

Please let me have a course correction.

Was it appropriate to stay silent and let things go for a couple of days...yes.

After that, it's really on you to ask for explanation or ask for action.  It's also "on you" to make sure there is a pathway for him to do the right thing...with minimal shame. 

Perhaps I should rephrase and say.."it's on you to not put roadblocks to him doing the right thing".

"Hey..can you help little Johny clean up (name the room).  That would mean a lot to me to help the kids be more responsible."

See how that was positive...doors are open to good things..it's about his role as a parent.  Let's say that he originally intended the trash thing to be a statement...well he now has a shame free way to "do better".

I like to think about things with "good better best"

I'm not saying that "Hey babe..can you pick up those Wendy's bags over there?" is "unhealthy", I am saying that I think using his role as a parent is "better"...or perhaps "best".

Let's also give an example of what not to do  "that trash has been there for xx weeks, what's wrong with you? are you ever going to help out around here?"  (hmm...could that be a cornering question?   )

There are several ways to end a war...I do think it's time to wrap it up (and toss it out). 

How would you like to go about ending it? (note..I didn't ask how you would like him to end it)

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

So..really the discussion isn't about picking it up or not, it's about appropriate amount of time.  (isn't it?)

No.  not really.    I'm using the trash to illustrate the dynamics.     

If boundaries are a challenge, you can strengthen them by making a list of what you’re responsible for and what you can control.

When UBPDHelp first joined us,... she was 100% responsible for the trash.   Clearly this isn't perceived as fair by her.   Clearly this is not meeting her needs.   

She tried an experiment of what would happen if she stopped being 100% responsible.   Clearly the results have not been as productive as she hoped.

What is UBPDHelp responsible for and what can she control?

This is tricky because it should be a shared responsibility.    All people in the household should contribute.    One person is not.    Everyone in the family feels the unfairness of it.   There is a lot of detail here.   Most of it unique to UBPDHelp.


Is UBPDHelp responsible for 60% of the household chores?    40%?   Is she responsible for communicating her needs/wishes effectively?   Can she control how she responds?    Can she control how her Husband responds?   Or what he accepts responsibility for?

When those questions are answered ... what the boundary is becomes clearer.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

All healthy relationships have boundaries. Ryan Howes, Ph.D, a clinical psychologist in Pasadena, Calif, defines a boundary as “the line where I end and someone else begins.” He likens boundaries in relationships to the boundaries around states.

“Boundaries that often fail are those that include the words ‘always,’ ‘never’ or any absolute language,” said Bridget Levy, LCPC, a therapist who works with couples.

Agree.  I hardly ever use those absolutes in locating the boundary. I see most things as gray.  I give people the benefit of the doubt, once or twice.  If continued, then accept that it’s just who they are — not my responsibility to change, simply responsible if I engage or not (that’s my personal boundary).

In a closer relationship, boundaries are more difficult, IMO. My point is, I didn’t think I needed such big boundaries to expect that the person who supposedly loved me would be looking to take advantage of me. It threw me off.

I’m not going to relive the path to how I got here. I recognize that the boundaries were not existent, at worst, and poor, at best. I didn’t understand what was happening and was very much just reacting.

I’ve taken a lot of time to think it through. Do I need so many more boundaries now because I failed to have any?  Idk. Is it my responsibility to implement endless boundaries to maintain this relationship?  I don’t think so, and I simply can decide I don’t want to.

Did I create the monster that emerges? No.  Did I unknowingly feed it? Yes.

Am I obligated to fix it?  For myself, yes. For him, no.  I think that’s okay.

Poor boundaries alienate you from your partner, have a double standard or try to manipulate an outcome.   Poor boundaries are threats.    "If you don't come home by 7PM I won't cook dinner."   There is an implied punishment.

I don’t do this. He does.  

Vague boundaries also don’t work.     “Don’t spend a lot of money this month”.  Expecting your partner to 'just know' is unfair.

Guilty of this I suppose.

But tell me...do I really have to tell him that it is expected to pick up after himself?  Is it a poor boundary not to tell a grown man that he should throw his trash away?

My boundary is that I will not pick up after H, who is full grown and more than capable, when he can entirely do it himself.

Extended boundary in fact, I will not pick up after my kids things they can do for themselves.

I will help others who ask (or if I see need a hand) for help on things they could otherwise do themselves.

Example, my 9 yo doesn’t especially enjoy picking up their room. I remind. Easy stuff — dirty laundry, trash (crumpled paper, wrapper), make their bed and if they have a drink, return it. Sometimes we’re busy and the job is bigger...okay, let’s do this together.

Kid is capable. Kids being kids, they let it slide. Then overwhelmed/don’t know where to start. Tackle it together and (re)teach the strategies. Kids don’t like chores. I remind them to be responsible for themself.

Personal boundaries are a separation between two people. A boundary separates you from someone else – helping you recognize that your feelings, thoughts, and actions are different than others’ and this separation means it’s okay for you to have your own feelings, thoughts, opinions, beliefs, and needs, rather than absorbing other people’s feelings or conforming to their beliefs.     Personal boundaries are NOT about power, domination, or forcing someone else to see our point of view.

Agree. Case in point. I need more sleep. H often complains when I’m ready for bed and guilts me into staying up. Then I’m exhausted and grumpy.

No more. Now, I just go to bed when I’m ready (this has been for a long time). He stills guilts me on occasion. I decline, but mostly now just doesn’t bother testing this boundary.

If boundaries are a challenge in your relationships, you can start to strengthen them by making a list of what you’re responsible for and what you can control.

They are. I don’t think they don’t exist. I think I have many that are quasi subconscious so I don’t think about them.

And it’s not that I don’t think they’re needed. The ones that are frustrating me are the ones I don’t think I should have to have.

Ones that most people possess and inherently (or have learned) respect. For example, personal space. This is a boundary most people have and yet for most people, they don’t test other people’s personal space boundary. It just is. It’s a mutual respect of a mostly unspoken boundary.

Just because we don’t state it, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

So, I think most people would agree that picking up your own messes is a known and accepted practice. The boundary isn’t picking up your own mess; it’s not picking up someone else’s.

My boundary of not doing it is FOR ME. It is NOT to make him do something. Right?

A school teacher has a boundary that she will not share personal information with her students.    This is generally accepted as a 'healthy boundary'.   It might be that because she doesn't share personal information her car isn't toilet papered on Halloween.   But that isn't the goal of the boundary.   The goal of the boundary is to create separation.  a respectful separation.

Agree

Let's look at the cup and the fast food trash.    What's the goal of the boundary here?   Was it that UBPDHelp always picked up after her H?   Is it now that UBPDHelp will never pick up this spot?    How is this a boundary?    How does this create recognition of a respectful separation of thoughts/ideas/wishes?   To me, this went from being a way too porous boundary to a way too rigid pseudo boundary.  

Maybe. But I would argue that the power struggle is his.

My boundary is that I will not engage in meaningless power struggles when the accepted action is not (should not be) in dispute.

Throw in prolonged negative reinforcement and I’m sorry but you will have to move mountains to get me to throw those bags out.

That said, so you don’t think I’m unreasonable, if glasses and dishes get returned to the kitchen, I will put them in the dishwasher, run it and put them away. I clean up meals. It’s not that I won’t. The boundary, which has been previously stated directly to him and indirectly (via family/kids), is that I am not responsible to pick up everyone’s things. Return items such as these to the kitchen. Even put your stuff in the dishwasher if it hasn’t run yet. But, if it makes it to the kitchen, I will deal with it.

The kids do this, most of the time, sometimes they get a nudgy reminder.

But he’s an adult. How many times should I tell him.

My boundary, return to kitchen. I will not wander the house looking for rogue dishes others have failed to return. This is about me and what I’m willing to do.

Where am I amiss?

GaGrl is right.    This isn't about correcting his behavior or forces consequences down on his head.   Learning to set  health boundaries means learning how to express your needs effectively.   In addition children learn their boundaries from their parents.    if you want to teach healthy boundaries to your kids you need to be able to model it.

Agree.

allowing the trash to sit, waiting for him to be the adult and wake up and do something about it keeps you engaged in the 'great trash war of 2020'  .    it keeps the focus on him... what he is doing,...how stupid he is to not return stuff to the kitchen... the ongoing power struggle.    its passive aggressive.   there is more than a whiff of 'I'll show you' about it.

Maybe. I’m not trying to be passive aggressive I’m trying to hold a boundary of being respected.

I have earned respect. Honestly, everyone is entitled to respect until they prove otherwise so technically I shouldn’t have had to earn it. But I have.

It’s not my power struggle. It’s my boundary the power struggle is him trying to get me to break my boundary. Don’t you think?

What message is there in that?

I bend in a lot of ways. Just not with this.  

I know this is hard to grasp.     measuring what you do (or don't do)  how you feel (or don't feel) from his actions or words is still defining yourself from him.

feelings do not come from the events around us.    feelings come from the way we think about the events around us.    that is a big but subtle distinction.

It is subtle.

I don’t care about the bags per se.

I care that someone cares so little about me that they simply feel it is my job to follow them around and pick up their mess. It is not acceptable.

That’s how I feel about that event.

someone's house burns down.     one person might feel gratitude, 'oh thank goodness everyone got out safely'.   another person might feel horrible grief, 'this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me'.    a third person might feel anger, 'I hated that house since the day my father abused me,  I am so happy it burnt.'   another person might feel fear,  'where am I going to go'.  

Agree

our feelings come from our thoughts.    UBPDHelp -  I am going to ask you to feel happy.   go ahead.  I'll wait.   Make yourself feel happy.    

chances are you had to think of a memory, a very specific and detailed memory...to generate feelings of happiness.   our feelings come from our thoughts.

Anything with my kids. I am happy. I wake up happy, I have a hopeful, positive attitude...every single day.

Being treated how I’ve been treated makes me question what I’m doing, putting up with.  

the more you hold tightly to thoughts about him being a grown man who is playing some power struggle game the more the game continues.

I don’t see everything this way. This I do.

But what would you suggest?  That doesn’t break my above boundary?

I just don’t see it.

And whatever that is...how does it not negatively reinforce me picking up after him?

I liked this.    It's very spot on.   It's a start to recognizing the separation between the two of you.

'ducks

Thank you. There so much. I focus on where I’m having trouble so I think it appears I only have no or terrible boundaries.

I reiterate that I don’t share where things are held and are working because I don’t need help there. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Sorry if that has clouded the perception.

Thanks ‘ducks.

[formflier]

Below is a very important question.

But he’s an adult. How many times should I tell him.
 

Zero.

This is kinda like the boundary thing.  I get the impression you get 1/2 of the equation, the other half where needs and wants are communicated, I'm still trying to sort out.

What are your thoughts about your apparent reluctance to ask him for what you want/need?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Below is a very important question.

Zero.

This is kinda like the boundary thing.  I get the impression you get 1/2 of the equation, the other half where needs and wants are communicated, I'm still trying to sort out.

What are your thoughts about your apparent reluctance to ask him for what you want/need?

Best,

FF

I don’t have reluctance to tell him what I want/need when those things are not known, obvious or have not been previously stated multiple times.

I don’t sit back and just let happen whatever happens. But I don’t feel a need to tell a grown man to throw out his garbage.

So, since he’s not doing it and I won’t on this particular bag, that left just leaving the bags or asking him to do it. To test your theory, I asked him to bring in his dishes and throw out his garbage, couched as it would be a big help to me.

His response?  Had kid one bring in the dishes and didn’t touch the bags.

Please explain how his power struggle to break my boundary is my responsibility.

Am I holding my boundary (it’s not unnecessarily restrictive...a lot of bend) or am I throwing out the garbage to end the struggle...but then haven’t I lost my boundary and reinforced that he can just wait me out?

Please anyone weigh in.

[formflier]

But I don’t feel a need to tell a grown man to throw out his garbage.
 

Similar things used to happen in my r/s. 

I would then say something like "Is that everything?"  then after getting an affirmative I would directly ask "Hey..what going on with (identify the thing)?"

Then sit back and listen.

weird response:  "oh is that bothering you?"  (don't get drawn into stuff like this..keep handing it back)

"What are your plans with (identify it)?"

I'm not sure if "FF style" is the answer in your situation.

I do know for sure that "mind reading" or "expectations from prior conversations" are not working.  (can we agree on that)

Props to you for the experiment.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Similar things used to happen in my r/s. 

I would then say something like "Is that everything?"  then after getting an affirmative I would directly ask "Hey..what going on with (identify the thing)?"

Then sit back and listen.

weird response:  "oh is that bothering you?"  (don't get drawn into stuff like this..keep handing it back)

"What are your plans with (identify it)?"

I'm not sure if "FF style" is the answer in your situation.

I do know for sure that "mind reading" or "expectations from prior conversations" are not working.  (can we agree on that)

Props to you for the experiment.

Best,

FF

Okay.  Update...albeit partial.

I went to bed as usual...lots of trying to get me to stay up, lots of no.

When I got up this morning (everyone else is somehow on teenage summer hours — stay up really late, get up late — so I’m enjoying a couple hours to myself), the bags have magically disappeared. My suspicion is that kid one took care of them, but I don’t actually know. Maybe H finally did.

As a show of faith, I finished off a couple of missed napkins that fell on the floor. I really don’t mind pitching in but crossing a line of me being responsible for it all is no good.

Will monitor to see if this is learned (will continue to request as needed, at least for a bit) or if a one off.

If it was a kid, not ideal, but still believe requesting a kid to do it 12 hours later means there must have been some level of understanding and maybe it felt less shameful to not do it in direct response to my request. Idk.  Will consider this a mini win.

Just want to get to a place where it’s not about winning, just mutual respect.

LMK how you make out with your cartwheels, FF...

Thanks!

[formflier]

For now I would suggest calling it a "win" for you "against" your old self. 

That's the real battle as you put together the new you.

 

Best,

FF

[formflier]

So...when you reflect back on "the trash incident" (or whatever you want to call it) what did you learn about yourself?

With the benefit of hindsight, anything you would want to do differently?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

How are you feeling today UBDPHelp?    Any self care on the agenda?

to be honest I have read this thread over a couple of times and am somewhat confused by it.     perhaps there is some murkiness around boundaries and what they are, what they aren't,  and how to enforce them.

setting and holding boundaries is hard.    like most things in life it's not a one and done.    finding and enforcing successful boundaries is skill you learn over time.   most people learn early boundaries from their childhood and then refine them in adult relationships.   sometimes this doesn't happen.    

boundaries are (of course) about us. Learning to set healthy boundaries means learning how to express your needs effectively.

'I have been over functioning and overly responsible for the household chores in my relationship.    I want a balance of household chores that is based more on mutual respect.'     is the beginning of a healthy boundary.

"I care that someone cares so little about me that they simply feel it is my job to follow them around and pick up their mess. It is not acceptable. "

these are different.    Now I am sure you are thinking 'ducks is nitpicking here,   what is the difference,... don't these both get us to the same place?   let me say they both are valid feelings/thoughts.  both have value.   neither is wrong.   neither is right.

they might get us to nearly the same place.    It matters how we get there.   they take us down different paths.  

Do I need so many more boundaries now because I failed to have any?  Idk. Is it my responsibility to implement endless boundaries to maintain this relationship?  I don’t think so, and I simply can decide I don’t want to.

boundaries do not generate a quid pro quo.   boundaries are not about I do this... you do that... boundaries protect and control one person only... the person who has the boundary.    

do you need more boundaries now?    well I am going to say No.  even though this isn't really a yes/no question.   a year ago you operated in mostly the same environment (minus the pandemic of course) and found ways to make it work.    a year ago you would have picked up the dishes and food trash and never blinked.  Now, you have changed.   How you see things have changed.     you can't back up and go back to the way things were.    you need more boundaries now for you... to protect and respect your understandings and needs.     the boundaries will support you in your new life.   if the boundaries change him that will be incidental/secondary to the goal of taking care of you.

'I have been over functioning and overly responsible for the household chores in my relationship. '    so by not picking up the dishes and fast food trash you were successful in this boundary.   you didn't over function.

  'I want a balance of household chores that is based more on mutual respect'   this part is still a little fuzzy.    how does one go about getting a balance of chores that is based on mutual respect?    we can debate forever that most people have some understanding of shared responsibilities.   we can go through bunches of examples.   and it is all kind of a moot point because that isn't the situation you find yourself in.  your husband doesn't understand shared responsibilities.    maybe he should.   but he doesn't.    he has very little experience in sharing responsibilities.    he doesn't naturally identify them.    he doesn't see trash as his job.    can you accept that he doesn't see life this way?   I am not saying agree with.   I am not saying approve of.    if you want more mutual respect in chore sharing you have to work with what you've got.   you have to meet him where he is.   for the last 20 years you've told us he hasn't taken one bag of trash out...   changing that will require effort.   a lot of patient communication.    it might not be worth it.    that's up to you.     I'm not advocating for anything other than you take care of you.   that you go down paths that lead you to healthier and calmer places.

'ducks

[formflier]

  changing that will require effort.   a lot of patient communication.    it might not be worth it.    that's up to you.     

Yes..this..THIS! 

Circle this back around to my pushiness (or however you want to describe it) about squashing the notion that "he'll never change...or truly change or real change".

There is some capacity to change...isn't that debate over?

IMO the real focus over the next few months is "It took X amount of effort to get Y amount of results."  As I look at myself, my life, the energy I have to devote to life I cho hose to focus my effort on (fill in the blank)

The above thing seems like a recipe for success to me.

The following is a summation of a thought process that I believe leads to further giving away your power.

"My hubby is not capable of true change, therefor my only choice is to (fill in the blank)"

Can you sit with those two "thoughts" for a while and then share your opinion about why one of them retains your power and one of them hands it away.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

For now I would suggest calling it a "win" for you "against" your old self. 

That's the real battle as you put together the new you.

 

Best,

FF

Thank you...minor update. Kid one threw out the trash. Dad/H was aware it was them and not me.  Doesn’t seem it should matter but a bit it does.

[I Am Redeemed]

This thread has reached the posting limit and has been locked. The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345522.0