Day 6 of the silent treatment... What is going on?

[siobhan823]

Quick and dirty history, I have been married to BPDh for almost 8 years (second marriage). We have been separated a few times and I filed for divorce last year but we recently reconciled. We don't live together. We have 5 children between us but only the two little ones are left. We each live with our youngest sons.

My kids are fine with the reconciliation. His youngest seems to be opposed.

BPDh has used the silent treatment before, but never like this. Usually its an afternoon or a day of not showing up or not texting back, and has been related to overwhelm.

This time is different. We had a fight on the fourth and then some time apart. He came back (texting only) for a few days, only to say "the fourth of July makes so much sense now" and then nothing.

I'm not proud to say I sent a bunch of texts asking what was going on. It affected me quite a lot. I've been having issues with a bully at work and between the two situations, I'm not doing so great. I basically begged him to tell me what I did, but no answer. A couple of days ago I had my S21 take BPDh some of his belongings to him. He answered my son's text, but I still haven't heard a thing.

I'm thinking I got the final discard/ghosting?

He's never done this before. He's never discarded me before either. I was always the one leaving and he would always try to get me back.  

I should mention he doesn't accept that he has BPD, he is much more comfortable with CPTSD. I'm not as focused on the label as I am the traits. He watches all the youtube videos and has done a great job of recognizing toxic people and learning not to people please and works hard on himself. He has been to therapy in the past, but not for PTSD or CPTSD. Problem is when he misperceives my behaviors he often throws me in the category of toxic person. I'm not perfect, but I am not personality disordered per se and I don't have those traits (according to my counselors.) I do have cPTSD/PTSD and I attend therapy regularly. He usually figures out he was wrong about my behavior he misperceives when he stops splitting. I figured he might just be splitting again and he would be back, but now I'm not so sure.

I am adopted so my abandonment trauma kicks my trash when people ignore me. I'm trying. It would really help to be able to understand what happened and why he is doing this.

I might be okay if it's over. I just want to move on, either toward repairing the relationship together or being on my own once and for all.

Thanks for listening.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Football2000]

That is a tricky situation. You just want closure but you are having trouble getting it one way or the other.

Someone else in another thread mentioned something about a final devaluation. While I don't think there was an update there either, I think we all fear that our partner will put is once and for all into the permanently bad category. I am not sure but I think I am in that category now, and the worst thing about it is that I still don't even know.

I also sense there is some internal turmoil in your partner. Whether or not the diagnosis of BPD is really the most accurate is obviously hard to say. However, the main difference is that CPTSD is more stably negative rather than fluctuating between ideation and devaluation, and instability of personal relationships and sense of self.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that IF your partner has BPD and IF he is not willing to acknowledge the unstable part of himself which is probably the core of BPD that makes it so hard to interact with such a person, then that could actually halt progress in his improvement.

[siobhan823]

That is a tricky situation. You just want closure but you are having trouble getting it one way or the other.

Someone else in another thread mentioned something about a final devaluation. While I don't think there was an update there either, I think we all fear that our partner will put is once and for all into the permanently bad category. I am not sure but I think I am in that category now, and the worst thing about it is that I still don't even know.

I also sense there is some internal turmoil in your partner. Whether or not the diagnosis of BPD is really the most accurate is obviously hard to say. However, the main difference is that CPTSD is more stably negative rather than fluctuating between ideation and devaluation, and instability of personal relationships and sense of self.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that IF your partner has BPD and IF he is not willing to acknowledge the unstable part of himself which is probably the core of BPD that makes it so hard to interact with such a person, then that could actually halt progress in his improvement.

Yeah... he might acknowledge an unstable part of himself but as of today he will not call it BPD. He was okay with it last year but for some reason that has switched. He would admit he hasn't had the best relationships but doesn't seem to get that it relates to BPD as it does... and while he acknowledges he changes his persona based on who he is around and the TV shows he watches, he won't admit it's an unstable sense of self. I agree that it halts progress to improvement. It's maddening. He's so close but so stubborn about controlling that narrative. It's the one thing that always seems to get in his, and our way.

It's awful not to know if you have been permanently placed in the devalue category. I'm so sorry you might be there now. What a hard thing. I definitely fear it now, though I never did before. Might be one more nail in the coffin. Maybe not. I agree with you... seems we are ever chasing closure. I watched a video by AJ Mahari the other day... she says we might never get it.

Hopefully we will. Thanks for your thoughtful response, Football.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear s-

I’m sorry you’re going through this pain right now.  I’m wondering whether you understand that ST (silent treatment) is a form of control.  Some say ST is abuse... I guess that depends on the circumstance withIN the home... but your BPDh is living apart from you at the present.

I’m also sorry that you’re being doubly hit by bullying at work.  Have you ever sought advice or discussion from your H on issues of this nature?  Is there a possibility this could be an icebreaker for you - to seek your H’s advice on how to handle this difficult coworker?  Just an idea.

Sometimes with our BPD/NPD partners, it feels almost better to approach them on things having NOTHING to do with the relationship when there have been “issues”... something they’ll perceive where you may look to them with respect, rather than as flawed or broken.  And whatever they offer up as advice, and hoping you can find some validity, compliment your H and tell him you’ll consider very carefully his thoughtful advice.  Please use care to not argue that his advice is “no good”, or why it it won’t work. 

Prior to asking for his thoughts, You may want to read about learning NOT to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).  Please look under the TOOLS, WORKSHOPS section for this valuable communication tool.  You may have already explored this area.

I truly hope things turn for the better for you soon.  I understand  Life overall is so challenging now.  Any glimmers of light are appreciated.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[once removed]

what was the fight on the fourth about?

[siobhan823]

I’m also sorry that you’re being doubly hit by bullying at work.  Have you ever sought advice or discussion from your H on issues of this nature?  Is there a possibility this could be an icebreaker for you - to seek your H’s advice on how to handle this difficult coworker?  Just an idea.

Thank you Gemsforeyes. You were spot on. I got fired yesterday (a lawyer friend says it's called a constructive discharge when they fire you for an illegal reason and disguise it under a legitimate reason. Guess I shouldn't have complained about the bullying.) I reached out and H responded. Not much, and he didn't reach back out or tell me why he hasn't been communicating, but at least he said something.

Sometimes with our BPD/NPD partners, it feels almost better to approach them on things having NOTHING to do with the relationship when there have been “issues”... something they’ll perceive where you may look to them with respect, rather than as flawed or broken.  And whatever they offer up as advice, and hoping you can find some validity, compliment your H and tell him you’ll consider very carefully his thoughtful advice.  Please use care to not argue that his advice is “no good”, or why it it won’t work.

This is very good advice, to not argue his and avoid anything that would make him feel flawed or broken, no matter how well intended my approach. I wish I had understood this long ago. Thank you.  

Prior to asking for his thoughts, You may want to read about learning NOT to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).  Please look under the TOOLS, WORKSHOPS section for this valuable communication tool.  You may have already explored this area.

I've explored it some. I will check out these resources. Once upon a time I had that kind of patience, before BPDh. I would love to get it back.

Your thoughts?

Just that if I knew for sure I hadn't been discarded I would be so encouraged right now. I don't know what it's like for others, but H isn't always like this. It's probably only 10-20% of the time, or maybe it just seems like that. Sometimes I could even look at him and say "I want my husband back" and he will snap out of it. Not always, but sometimes. Glimmers of hope. Thank you G. Sincerely.

[siobhan823]

what was the fight on the fourth about?

Hi once removed. Well... ugh... I was telling him that since we've been back together I don't feel as secure in the relationship as I used to. That it feels like he could take me or leave me, and it was never like that before. I never doubted before. I never had to. I didn't realize it, of course, until it seems to have changed. And I wasn't complaining as much as making an observation, but that doesn't mean he heard it that way. I was sad about it. And it led to the subject of our final break up last August when I filed for divorce and the circumstances surrounding that. He was not okay and I didn't understand what was happening at the time. But he doesn't seem to remember his behavior at all from then and I said something about how he hasn't even talked about it, and then he attacked me and I fought back before I caught myself. Have you ever seen the video from Dr. Daniel Fox about the empathy paradox? It was that kind of moment, where hubs felt attacked before anything actually happened and attacked me out of nowhere, but only because he misperceived that I was coming at him. He became very, very mean and we stopped talking and left the store and I dropped him off. That was the last time I've seen him.

[once removed]

its important to understand that a breakup, or a divorce, especially if you were the one that filed for it, is going to boil under the surface of any reconciliation. a person getting back together is going to be on their heels, wondering if the next shoe will drop, or they may be resentful, or they may have partially grieved already and getting back together looks daunting.

in other words, the two of you reconciled, but the reasons that broke the two of you up werent reconciled. and old baggage resurfaced.

first and foremost, give him space. dont push to resolve this argument, right now. accept that if he is not inclined to engage on a certain subject, it may not be the silent treatment so much as he doesnt want to go there, and it may be best for both of you not to.

reconciling, in the short term, may be more about listening, and inviting him to speak. how to do that, without pushing, is the question.

what do you think?

[Kristacat91]

I am sorry to hear you are going through this—the silent treatment is brutal and I can see how hard it is to just not know the future of your relationship.

My husband has just ended a 3-week silent treatment phase and I, also, thought this might be the end and that he had forever decided to put me in the “bad” category. I’ve read a lot on the silent treatment in the last few weeks (he’s given me the silent treatment in the past, but only a handful of times has it exceeded the two week mark).

Gemsforeyes pointed out the silent treatment as being a way to control the other person and that is certainly been the case in my last three weeks. From all I’ve read (on this board and other places), the best course of action is to just go about your life. This, I agree, is incredibly hard and in my own last three weeks (which I am bringing up only because this JUST happened to me, so I feel your pain!), I, too, couldn’t stand it and tried different takes. I tried being super nice and coaxing, to try to goad him out of it, but I found that when I did that, this made it worse—he actually got mean in addition to ignoring me. So I went back to just staying out of his way and going on about my life, taking myself out to lunch, going for walks, trying to pamper myself and be kind to myself. The downside for him, I guess, is that I honestly visualized what life would be like without him in it because I decided I wasn’t going to put up with this anymore, but he doesn’t know that. So, I recommend doing that. I would just worry about YOU.  You can’t control his behavior, you can only control your own and how you react to him. And when I chose to just let him do his thing (as hard as that was) and focus on my own needs and self, he snapped out of it eventually.  And if he didn’t? I had already decided that if he chose to ignore me indefinitely, well, so be it.

It’s also hard to stomach that I KNOW my husband was actively trying to hurt me by ignoring me.  He’s said things to me in the past like, “I was going to ignore you until x date, but I couldn’t keep it up...” so that lets me know that this is entirely conscious and intentional. At least for my husband. And it’s hard to admit that someone would actively try to hurt you like that, but I also know that this is the BPD rearing its head, not the person I love. It’s really important to separate the behavior from the person.

Basically, I decided I was spending too much time focused on him and what he wanted/would do and decided to focus more on what I needed and what I wanted, while still being kind and respectful to him should he speak to me (which he ultimately had to do since we live in the same house—it was all very awkward).

I’m not sure if that helped, but that’s my two cents, after coming off of the silent treatment.

[siobhan823]

its important to understand that a breakup, or a divorce, especially if you were the one that filed for it, is going to boil under the surface of any reconciliation. a person getting back together is going to be on their heels, wondering if the next shoe will drop, or they may be resentful, or they may have partially grieved already and getting back together looks daunting.

in other words, the two of you reconciled, but the reasons that broke the two of you up werent reconciled. and old baggage resurfaced.

first and foremost, give him space. dont push to resolve this argument, right now. accept that if he is not inclined to engage on a certain subject, it may not be the silent treatment so much as he doesnt want to go there, and it may be best for both of you not to.

reconciling, in the short term, may be more about listening, and inviting him to speak. how to do that, without pushing, is the question.

what do you think?

Yes. I agree. Thank you. I don't know how to invite him to speak without pushing. I am just leaving it for now. I really don't know what else I could do.

I know he has found a lot of acceptance at his new place of employment and he has come back from many months of being on his own. He has his youngest son back and an apartment and his things all around him... if I'm being objective, he doesn't have the bandwidth for a relationship. I thought because we were married it wouldn't be quite the same as beginning something new would be, but I think what you are saying is quite right;  nothing has been reconciled, and it needed to be. This is where we struggled before... when there was life to do, there wasn't bandwidth for us. I was hoping living apart would help with that, but it might not be enough.

[siobhan823]

I am sorry to hear you are going through this—the silent treatment is brutal and I can see how hard it is to just not know the future of your relationship.

Thank you, Kristacat. It's gotten a little better as the days have gone on, and reading here and talking to friends has been good, too. It is truly helpful to know this is normal for those with BPD and also that I am not alone in my experience.

My husband has just ended a 3-week silent treatment phase and I, also, thought this might be the end and that he had forever decided to put me in the “bad” category. I’ve read a lot on the silent treatment in the last few weeks (he’s given me the silent treatment in the past, but only a handful of times has it exceeded the two week mark).

I'm sorry to hear that you've been going through this, too, but happy you are out of it finally. 

Gemsforeyes pointed out the silent treatment as being a way to control the other person and that is certainly been the case in my last three weeks. From all I’ve read (on this board and other places), the best course of action is to just go about your life. This, I agree, is incredibly hard and in my own last three weeks (which I am bringing up only because this JUST happened to me, so I feel your pain!), I, too, couldn’t stand it and tried different takes. I tried being super nice and coaxing, to try to goad him out of it, but I found that when I did that, this made it worse—he actually got mean in addition to ignoring me. So I went back to just staying out of his way and going on about my life, taking myself out to lunch, going for walks, trying to pamper myself and be kind to myself. The downside for him, I guess, is that I honestly visualized what life would be like without him in it because I decided I wasn’t going to put up with this anymore, but he doesn’t know that. So, I recommend doing that. I would just worry about YOU.  You can’t control his behavior, you can only control your own and how you react to him. And when I chose to just let him do his thing (as hard as that was) and focus on my own needs and self, he snapped out of it eventually.  And if he didn’t? I had already decided that if he chose to ignore me indefinitely, well, so be it.

FYI I read your response a few days ago (even though I'm just replying today) and have been trying this, to visualize life without him again, and it was awful at first, but it is starting to work some. I'm remembering what it is like to not have the push-pull and the peace I felt at times that I don't feel now. Of course it is a two sided coin. I was also very unhappy without him in many ways as I love him very much. I am focusing on the areas of my life that are calm and secure, and nurturing my other relationships, and things have become bearable again. I don't know if I will ever hear from him again or if he is even thinking about me, but I'm starting to really feel like no matter what happens, I will be okay. Yay for the good days.

It’s also hard to stomach that I KNOW my husband was actively trying to hurt me by ignoring me.  He’s said things to me in the past like, “I was going to ignore you until x date, but I couldn’t keep it up...” so that lets me know that this is entirely conscious and intentional. At least for my husband. And it’s hard to admit that someone would actively try to hurt you like that, but I also know that this is the BPD rearing its head, not the person I love. It’s really important to separate the behavior from the person.

I think this is incredibly wise. I'm not sure I know how to do that. I don't know where he begins and ends and where the BPD does.

Basically, I decided I was spending too much time focused on him and what he wanted/would do and decided to focus more on what I needed and what I wanted, while still being kind and respectful to him should he speak to me (which he ultimately had to do since we live in the same house—it was all very awkward).

Again I'm so sorry you have been dealing with this and I am so impressed with how well you have handled it. I've been an absolute mess.

I’m not sure if that helped, but that’s my two cents, after coming off of the silent treatment.

Yes, this helped a lot. Thank you again.

[once removed]

any update? have you heard from him?

[siobhan823]

any update? have you heard from him?

He hasn't reached out. I texted him with a question about an item I was selling on the classifieds and he responded that he would look for what I needed.

I go through moments where I miss him and feel like the pain will never end, alternating with remembering what it was like to be free from the chaos and constant blame, and what a relief that was.

I don't know what I will feel like or think if he does circle back.

I don't know how I'll get my belongings back from him if he doesn't.

And so it goes.

[siobhan823]

Yeah... I asked him tonight, very nicely, if he had a chance to look for what I needed. He read the message an hour before he responded "Nah. Haven't even looked yet"

I've never experienced this kind of apathy from him before. Anger and defiance, but never apathy. My gut says he's enjoying messing with me. Definitely a devalue. He knows how this would make me feel.

All I can figure is that someone said something or some thought occurred to him to explain my motive for the fight on the fourth, and now he has painted me black. I don't even know who he is... but I suppose I never did?

Is he splitting me? Is he simply adapting to his new environment of toxic people?

The cognitive dissonance... it is crazymaking. .

[once removed]

it may seem counterintuitive, but before you reach for bpd pathology, reach for a human nature explanation.

"Nah. Haven't even looked yet"

is this splitting or a devalue?

no.

its an "im too cool to be bothered" response 

why would he do that?

there are a lot of possible reasons.

maybe he didnt like how you worded the question and thought he was responding in kind. maybe he doesnt want to go there, in any way, about the breakup, so he put his guard up and shut you down. maybe (evidently) hes mostly been in a pouty/passive aggressive mood toward you.

maybe any of those things. it may also have to do with the dynamics between the two of you. is he enjoying messing with you and knows how it will make you feel? its probably not that calculated a response...he had nothing to gain with it. it may be that when you pull, he pushes, because thats how the two of you operate.

its hard to say. you know him best. what do you think?

[siobhan823]

it may seem counterintuitive, but before you reach for bpd pathology, reach for a human nature explanation.

Okay.

maybe he didnt like how you worded the question and thought he was responding in kind. maybe he doesnt want to go there, in any way, about the breakup, so he put his guard up and shut you down. maybe (evidently) hes mostly been in a pouty/passive aggressive mood toward you.

maybe any of those things. it may also have to do with the dynamics between the two of you. is he enjoying messing with you and knows how it will make you feel? its probably not that calculated a response...he had nothing to gain with it. it may be that when you pull, he pushes, because thats how the two of you operate.

its hard to say. you know him best. what do you think?

I think there is definitely a push/pull dynamic between us... and yes passive aggressiveness from him... I think he is very tired from working... When he is overwhelmed he becomes only about himself, even though he can be quite giving and loving at other times. And yes, it's highly likely he doesn't want to go there about the break up. Historically he has never discussed that topic, usually pretending it didn't happen. I suppose it would make sense that it's no different now.

I'm leaving him alone. I don't know how to get my own closure when I don't think there will be any from him. I'm still not very good at being okay when these things happen. I think that's why I always go back. I don't think I would if it didn't 'feel' so devastating. Intellectually, I don't want this dynamic. I want to be free. It doesn't feel possible to move on, and no matter how long we are apart when we are, I always miss him and go back. I don't understand why.

Thank you for walking me through this.

[once removed]

Intellectually, I don't want this dynamic. I want to be free. It doesn't feel possible to move on, and no matter how long we are apart when we are, I always miss him and go back. I don't understand why.

for what its worth, you definitely dont want to return to the same dynamic.

the steps for detaching and reversing a breakup really arent that different, in practice.

detaching involves taking some space. it involves getting out of the unhealthy dynamics. it involves grieving, and later on, it involves understanding what, fundamentally, broke the relationship down.

reversing a breakup is the same, just with a different goal. it means that if this is going to happen, if this is going to work, you have to stop the bleeding, you have to grieve the loss of the ideal relationship/the honeymoon phase/the fantasy of what some of us thought the relationship was going to be, and accept it for what it is. and it means if youre going to return, something has to give.

resolving this is going to require the understanding of the "why" you go back, and not only that, whats going to change this time. "why" you go back could have to do with any host of unhealthy reasons, healthy reasons, or both. maybe youre afraid to let go and grieve. maybe you feel addicted to the makeup/breakup cycles. maybe youre afraid of the future, or a future without him (these are just examples). maybe theres something that works really well about this relationship, and something that doesnt work so well. maybe you both want to make it work, but cant figure out how to resolve the conflict between you.

examining the "why" you go back will give you a lot of clarity. when you sort out the unhealthy reasons from the healthy reasons, when you get to what is broken and what can be fixed, the path gets a lot clearer.

[siobhan823]

resolving this is going to require the understanding of the "why" you go back, and not only that, whats going to change this time. "why" you go back could have to do with any host of unhealthy reasons, healthy reasons, or both. maybe youre afraid to let go and grieve. maybe you feel addicted to the makeup/breakup cycles. maybe youre afraid of the future, or a future without him (these are just examples). maybe theres something that works really well about this relationship, and something that doesnt work so well. maybe you both want to make it work, but cant figure out how to resolve the conflict between you.

examining the "why" you go back will give you a lot of clarity. when you sort out the unhealthy reasons from the healthy reasons, when you get to what is broken and what can be fixed, the path gets a lot clearer.

Okay. I'm going to try to write this out and sort it.

I am afraid to let go and grieve. I don't mind grieving, the productive part, but the part that comes right before feels like it will never end and that it will consume me. I am not addicted to the makeup/breakup cycles, in fact I feel terrorized and plagued by them. I am definitely afraid of a future without him. I hated our time apart and I'm having a hard time imagining having any good days without him, and I am terrified of finding out he is with someone new. I think of him with someone else and it pierces my heart and I can't breathe. He promised he knew for sure that he wanted me and nothing and no one else for 7 years, and now he is gone and couldn't care less. The apathy is stunning to me.

There are many things that worked well (or so I thought.) I thought we were partners and best friends... there were things that didn't but it seemed like they were small things (other than the devaluation cycles...) we had a home and a life together, and now it's gone... but it never had a formal ending... I can't make sense of where it went... and it's like I'm the only one who notices it's gone...

The difference this time is that I never know who he is going to be. It wasn't like that before. He has been so many different people in the last 2 years. It's more than Jeckyl and Hyde. From moment to moment I don't know what to expect from him. It feels less and less real because it's so unstable... like a bizarre movie. And I don't understand why he has become so much meaner. The person I married and was with for so long would never have said or done to me the things he is doing now. I saw a picture of him the other day from 6 years ago and I don't think that person exists anymore. His eyes were different. I wish I knew where my husband went. 

I don't think anything can be fixed. I think it is a kind of high and fantasy, even though it seems real as I experience it -- it wasn't something I was trying to achieve. I thought we had achieved it but couldn't maintain it. It's all broken I think. It isn't/wasn't real, I think. Then other times I remember it feeling as familiar as water to a fish, and nothing felt more natural or more real.

I think one core reason I would go back because it never felt finished... Like we were always stumbling at the starting line and surely we would finally 'launch' this time. But also I would go back just to end the cycle...to forget and get back to normal and hold my breath that it wouldn't change this time. That was definitely unhealthy, and I always knew it... and, I didn't know what else to do.

I wish I had never met him. I wish I had trusted my instinct and stayed away from him. I wish I could fall out of love with him or break the trauma bond or whatever is happening and finally detach from him.

Obviously I am still confused. I suppose I will continue sorting until I gain the clarity you are talking about.