Never thought a lack of empathy could do this...

[HappyChappy]

My first epiphany is finding out my mom was BPD and bro was NPD. This gave me PTSD as they were also quiet violent when I was small. Hence my PTSD is triggered by BPD like behaviour. I have just found out my wife of 20 years has Aspergus, and that partners of people with Aspergus also get PTSD, if your emotional needs are not met for a long time.  I left her for 6 months and miraculously got better, having limped along for four years. She was pushing for a second go, but when we met she was even more triggering. Absolutely no concession her side. 

The issue isn’t the divorce,  I was so much happier single, it’s how on earth do I now tolerate people who lack empathy, even Politicians that lack empathy wind me up (mentioning no names) ? Also I was blind to BPD, then learn't about it, then was blind to the lack of empathy in Aspergues. Any tips, can anyone relate, failing that a "that must of be tough" would be great. I always wondered why I had such loyal and supportive friends - they were just normal people with empathy. .

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi HC:
That must be tough! Sounds like you are struggling a bit, with a lack of empathy on your partner's part.  I'm thinking you might feel invalidated?
Care to share any details?

She was pushing for a second go, but when we met she was even more triggering. Absolutely no concession her side.

I know that sometimes we know the answer, but just need someone to remind us:

We can't change others - only how we interact & react

We can choose to radically accept a situation.

Is it a matter of a lack of empathy for anything/anyone, or just for you? (because you are painted black)?

PS: Still can't resist the political barb's/bait, LOL.  I'll choose to ignore - no JADE match for me. 

[Methuen]

Hey HappyChappy,

It sounds a bit like your boat has been rocked by these epiphanies.

It is interesting that you discovered your wife has Asperger's after 20 years of marriage.  How did that information suddenly come to pass?  Was she just diagnosed, or did her family keep the "secret" from you?  

I have worked with a number of Asperger's people over my career.  Like anything else, it's a sliding scale or a spectrum.  My first thought after reading your post was an ignorant one (don't be offended by this, but please just see the ignorant honesty and maybe a hint of humour), how is it possible to be married for 20 years and not recognize something's up?  The much more intelligent and empathetic thought which immediately followed was "oh yes of course...raised by BPD, with NPD brother.  How's a person to know what the heck is typical vs atypical in a healthy relationship after that FOO dynamic?"  In my work with young people with Asperger's and autism, I found so much variation.  Some were incredibly likeable and their quirks were endearing to myself and others, and some were much more difficult (including the meltdowns and head banging).  All this to say, I can only imagine how after 20 years of marriage, suddenly understanding your wife has Asperger's and having the ultimate "aha" moment that connects the dots of the last 20 years would definitely rock your boat.  

Lots to process there.

It would be different if you had entered the marriage fully understanding the Asperger's, radically accepting it prior to tying the knot (thinking of Sheldon and Amy Farrah Fowler on Big Bang here...sorry for the comparison ), but coming from a complicated FOO and getting hit with the Asperger's ephiphany after 20 years...well having a "second go" sounds like it was something you weren't ready for.  

A bit of "after shock" maybe?  

how on earth do I now tolerate people who lack empathy

Coming from your FOO history, I wish I knew more to give you solid answers.  My suggestions are to limit your exposure to the triggers as much as possible, and envelop yourself with those loyal and supportive friends you have instead.  Turn off the media when that politican you mention comes on stream, and try to only surround yourself with positive people (where possible).  This too shall pass.

[Methuen]

PS.  I should mention I was 57 years old before I became informed and accepted my mom was BPD - which kind of rocked my boat too - cause I had to let go of the dream of a warm mother-daughter relationship ever happening.  So you caught on much earlier (after 20 years) than I did (57 years).  I do get "not knowing".  I apologise for not editing that bit out in the 10 min edit window  

[zachira]

Seems like my family and yours have some similarities with family members with BPD, NPD, and Aspergers . (My mother with BPD died last summer. My brother has BPD. My BIL is on the autism spectrum.) My cousin who is a therapist suggested my sister has Aspergers. I did some research and concluded that without a doubt that my sister has NPD. The difference is that people with NPD are capable of manipulating others to get what they want in very cruel ways, whereas people with Aspergers generally do want to be liked and are challenged by being unable to put themselves in another person's shoes though they can learn skills to get along better with others.
My heart hurts when you describe the PTSD you have from having family members who are unable to have empathy. Disordered people often marry each other, and produce children who are more likely to have various challenges with mental illness and/or developmental disorders like Aspergers.
You want to know how to tolerate people who are unable to be empathic. From my experiences, it is mostly about keeping things at an intellectual level when dealing with them, making it about them getting something they want without realizing what the benefits are for you, and choosing to surround yourself as much as you can with people who are rewarding to be around and capable of emotionally reciprocal relationships. I like Les Carter's books on Amazon and his videos along with those of Richard Brannon's on youtube on how to acquire the skills and patience to deal with diordered family members.
Do be kind to yourself. There are just times when the lack of rewarding emotional connections with family members with no capacity for empathy is extremely frustrating. What do you do for self care and to feel better within a short period of time when you are feeling frustrated by the lack of empathy from some of the members of your family?

[HappyChappy]

Hi Naught Nibble,

Good to see you’re still treading the boards and thanks for your response. I think what disappointed me was I saw my BPD explosive emotions as something to avoid, and people with Aspergues have flat emotions which I found appealing,  didn’t see the lack of empathy until it was too late. But in fairness to me, my ex was “High functioning” and very good at hiding it, mainly by saying very little.I read women often go undiagnosed for this reason. Apprently it shows more in men. They are easily lead, so she adopted many of my views. The kids now tell me “she's become racist.” So she's clearly adopting someone else’s views now. Thankful the kids haven’t followed.

She had little interst seeing anyone outside our family, but when I asked for the separation, she spoke with ex Police collegues who basically told her to bully the crap out of me to get more money from the divorce and use entrapment. When it all went wrong she blamed them. The good news is the judge saw through it and knocked her back, offering her less money than I had offered her to not go to trial. She once told me she can tell a criminal just by looking at them. And that if they got off, it was because lawyers were falsifying evidence. Her father was known to handcuff suspects and give them a good kicking in the back of the van – I was appalled and she would say “But they’re criminals, they deserve it.” this was before trial.

Thanks for your response NN, all my empathy comes from friends or this forum. My son has just jumping ship and is living with me, he says his mum and sister bully him - I now understand that’s because he shows emotions, and they don’t like that. He's a good kid. Apprently prolonged exposure gives PTSD and he's already picked up they invalidate him.

[HappyChappy]

Thanks for your response Methuen ,
I’m thicked skinned so don’t worry about saying the wrong thing. Aspies say it all the time (my daughter likes the term Aspie). I would agrea with all you write, it’s just nice to get a other opinion on this. My ex and daughter are both “High functioning” Aspergus, so my ex was just very quiet and said very little. It was only when I fell ill with PTSD and needed help for the very first time in our relationship, that I noticed the lack of empathy. My ex also insisted we moved 200 miles away from my support network, so ...

If you’ve worked with Aspergus, my ex had this habbit of completely cutting out people that disagreed with her. She cut her father out, before we even met and when he had cancer she didn’t bother then. When my father died, the relative that did the most for us, she didn’t go to the funeral because “Not my Dad.” Very disrespectful. Does that sound like Aspergus or something else ?

Oh it will all come out in the wash. Just watched Ricky Gervaise’s comedy routine about Aspies and feel better. Also Tom Hanks looks of disbelief when hearing Gervaises Golden Globe speech. Wonderful stuff. Thanks again for you feedback.

[HappyChappy]

Seems like my family and yours have some similarities with family members with BPD, NPD, and Aspergers .

Hey Zachira,
You've gone up in the world, you're an Ambasedor, does that give you access to foreign embassies and their facilities ?

Is there a linked between Aspergus and BPD ? Good point about the self care, I do loads, which is why I'm desparing about going through it all again. My view is I need to link back up with empathetic people, something my wife discouraged because she avoided people, I now realise it's because she struggled with their emotions. But having spent decades surpressing mine (to keep her happy) I can't wait to let rip and have normally emotions again. Ironcailly the women in my life have all lacked empathy and the men have had loads of it. I think this has made me overly emperthetic, I use to be an agony Aunt at school, as well as for my BPD. Thanks again for your responce.

[Methuen]

Does that sound like Aspergus or something else ?

Huh.  That was not my experience with Aspies.  A lack of empathy is typical, but not in a manipulative or hurtful way.  More of an innocent "cluelessness".  After reading your reply to NaughtyNibbler, I'm wondering if there could be more reasons for her behaviors than just the Aspie trait. This quote is running around in my head:  

Her father was known to handcuff suspects and give them a good kicking in the back of the van – I was appalled and she would say “But they’re criminals, they deserve it.”

Clearly you've been through a lot in your relationship with her.

During my career, I probably worked with 2-3 dozen individuals with Asperger's or autism inside of a learning environment.  One of my favourite people of all time (within my career) was an Aspie.  He had a TON of character which more than made up for anything that was atypical.  His endearing quality was his sense of humour - he was also just a bit of a performer - in a healthy way - and won the popularity of about 600 people within the same walls.  I even got a hug from him at the end of the year.  On the other hand, I have also worked with the Aspie's at the other end - they were completely stressed, few coping skills, and oh...the meltdown's...and one who was a "runner" who also excelled at behaviors intended to show she was in control of every situation.  Not easy.  It's quite the spectrum.  I would think that their FOO dynamic plays into how they cope too.

My cousin is completely estranged from her BPD mother (sister to my mother).  I believe her mother was a "witch".  SOOoo many family stories.  My mother is more of a Queen/Waif type.  My cousin got the worse deal from the deck.  The point is that my cousin got a lot of counselling,  and the last time I saw her she told me she ONLY interacts with positive (and empathetic) people now.  That is one of her coping strategies (I'm assuming she has PTSD too).  So really enjoy all those loyal and supportive friends of yours.  If the pandemic has interrupted your time with them, do reach out through technology, and just reconnect for some positive interactions.  I concur that the empathy on this forum is salve for our wounds - healing.

[Turkish]

I can imagine being in a r/s with an Aspie can be tough. It also can manifest differently between the sexes.  My Ex thinks that she might have it, and it kind of makes sense with the "masking."

Our son, now 10, is actually a Dx'd Aspie, ASD1. It drives me nuts when he wants to explain to me something stupid he saw on Tik Tok or YouTube, or tells me about Halo, often after me explaining something to him that indicates he wasn't listening and his mind was somewhere else.

That being said,  he's one of the most kind and gentle kids I know and has a huge heart, and a centred mortality... kind of the opposite to his sister who is very self-centred.  I still love her to pieces, but her brother is the peacemaker.

[HappyChappy]

Lack of empathy is probably the wrong word, it’s self centeredness. My daughter had a habbit of speaking to you and then when you reply she’s say “No one is interested.” I now realise she literally means it. Lol.  Turk, you’ve had a mother, wife and child who are, lets say self cantered as have I. I feel like I’ve wasted my life supporting people that have very little loyalty and  give very little back emotionally. Do you ever feel like that ?

...she told me she ONLY interacts with positive (and empathetic) people now.  That is one of her coping strategies (I'm assuming she has PTSD too).

I was thinking that way. My two Aspies have both told me they can't see anything wrong with me, so I don't have PTSD. I now realise they say that  because it gets in the way of what they want. So I have no choice but to avoid them and recover with people with empathy. My ex and daughter, neither can accept critisum so... Thing is Methuen, I've recruited and worked with people with autisum. That's very different to being worn down over 20 years having PTSD triggers laid in there. I'm the happiest I've been since I can remember,  Doesn't matter if it's innocent or malicious, it still wrecks your mental health.

[zachira]

I too have often felt that I have wasted far too much of my life on people that have very little loyalty and give very little back emotionally. It takes courage to face the pain, and to learn to value ourselves enough to attract the right kind of people into our inner circle. I am wondering if the frustration is particularly high for you right now, because you now see certain family members for who they really are, which can often be more overwhelming than when you really didn't  know what was going on.

[Turkish]

Maybe I'm fatalistic and don't value myself enough, but I don't feel like I've wasted my life, per se.

My mother wasn't self centered as much as lost and blinded by her deep pain (PTSD, BPD, Depression, Anxiety) to obvious solutions.

Beneath the narc veneer, my ex is like my mom,  who didn't have a narc bone in her body. My ex is on a kick now posting life-coach like videos to Instagram and Facebook. She seems oblivious to the lack of "likes" or engagement by anyone.

She recently got in a row with D8 who lied about doing her "Growth Mindset For Kids" workbook assignment.  When confronted, my ex said that our daughter was nasty. I think I'd be nasty too! What's next, est for kids?

[madeline7]

Hi there,
What is helping me (a little) is understanding that my uBPDm likely has an overactive amygdala, and therefore is always emotionally labile and her emotions are heightened. Her baseline is the way typical people are in tense situations. And individuals with ASD have a different way of processing information. There is sometimes a low "social IQ", and that person may come off as less empathetic but usually their thinking can be pragmatic and just different than typical people. So the similarities to me is that the processing is different in individuals with BPD and ASD... and I need to remind myself almost constantly that my uBPDM does not take in and respond to stimuli in the environment, and I need to be more compassionate and try to figure out how not to be so hypervigilant. There are times when i think she is aware and just being vindictive, but she really does have a mental illness. Personally, I find people with aspergers to be pragmatic but not usually mean and vindictive.

[zachira]

I like Madeline7 also find people with Aspergers to be pragmatic but not usually mean and vindictive.

Madeline7,
My therapist told me to go inside and observe my feelings when dealing with a disordered person. It really has helped me many times though not always to not take on the overwhelming feelings the disordered person is trying to dump on me, and to have compassion for myself.

[JNChell]

Empathy is a very important personality trait. Especially in a give and take situation like a marriage. I can’t identify a more important aspect of empathy other than children also being involved.

I stayed with my Sis for a month in Pittsburgh. I was feeling down and she talked me into to staying with her for a month. On a drive to a park for a hike, I asked her what Autism looks like in childhood. She’s a PhD psychologist. I asked because S5’s mom blocks me from everything that she can, and I’m thirsty for credible information. The biggest thing that my Sis pointed out was the lack of empathy. Of course it’s on a spectrum just like the topics that we discuss here. Saying very uncomfortable things, but it makes sense in her head. Pragmatic, which has already been said. I prefer to be pragmatic and to the point, but that doesn’t always work.

Empathy is hard for autistic individuals, as the spectrum qualifies. Bottom line, it’s sounds like you’re beating yourself up here. Nothing that you’re thinking or processing takes away from your PTSD. It’s good to compare it to other things when you’re conflicted, but it’s also good to stay inside of your own reality. The short term for that is “grounded”. Lol.

It’s no mystery how we surrounded ourselves with people that have very little empathy. Now what? I could certainly use a joke my Brother.

[HappyChappy]

Maybe I'm fatalistic and don't value myself enough, but I don't feel like I've wasted my life, per se.

That's a great approach Turk, I'm going to turn the pain into art and write a sitcom about Asbies. I will call it "The Bigger Bang Theory".

I like Madeline7 also find people with Aspergers to be pragmatic but not usually mean and vindictive.

Fair point, but they are also easily lead so it depends who’s influencing them.

I guess I need to hit the text books and learn about this, even though BPD and  Aspie never saw the point in doing such a thing. It's always us that have to bend ! Finding a bendy woman  is now a my main focus in life. I needed a hobby.

JNChell thank you for your support, as always.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Finding a bendy woman  is now a my main focus in life.

  I hear that Gumby has a sister & she has a profile on several dating apps. . .

Life without attachment to a significant other isn't all bad.  There can be occasional loneliness, but it's a lot better than loneliness within a bad relationship.  A peaceful existence is something to value.

[HappyChappy]

Life without attachment to a significant other isn't all bad.  

Good point, only "bendy lady" sounds funnier. It's just so good to get the final piece of the jigsaw. I was ill for around 4 years and my Therapist couldn't understand where the current PTSD came from. But she did point out how inconsiderate my partner was, so we got there the wrong way.  Thanks for listening NN et al.

[JNChell]

You talk about getting there the wrong way. About how your PTSD wasn’t correctly navigated by your therapist. Are you talking about separate sources of trauma? Your family +your partner? I only ask because I’m trying learn myself.

The childhood=trauma. Adult relationships can bring that trauma to the surface.

I guess that I’m trying to ask, how did/do you cope and work through the PTSD?

[HappyChappy]

Are you talking about separate sources of trauma?

You are very asstute JNChell, that's exactly what I was trying to say. I got CPTSD as a child due to physical and emotional abuse. That was easy enough to detect, because a cracked rib and black eye are clearly not acceptable.

But I got it again, when married for almost 20 years to someone with Aspergus, it's due to prolonged periods of your emotional needs not being met. Apprently it's  exteamly common when married to an Aspie, so much so it's even termed "Cassandra Affective Disorder (CAD) as it's slightly different to PTSD. I think because my wife was the opposite to my mom, in that she showed no emotion and seemed very steady and didn't play games, I never connected the two. Neither of us did anything bad to each other, and pretty much never argued - that's why it was hard to understand why I wasn't happy and she couldn't change.

In truth, I was tipped off by my current partner, who also divorced someone with Apergues. The spooky thing is, my partner says I'm a male version of her, because we're so similar, which is true. But apparently Aspergues people selected a very similar type of person to marry, which would explain that. In fact JNChell you could well be that type, in that you're a sterling fella true of hart. I do hope you find peace, but finding out about Apergues and also finding a partner full of empathy seems to have sorted me out - ish. I still get triggered by NPD politicians (woops).

[Notwendy]

I would be cautious about generalizing as autism/Asperger is also a wide spectrum. I don't know many people with Asperger's but the ones I do know are different from pwBPD in many ways. I think their behaviors can overlap in some ways but the reasons for them are different.

Both can have difficulty processing emotions and might have tendencies to outbursts due to their frustration with that.

Both may be managing anxiety - and with Aspies it can be social anxiety. They might appear to be self centered or lack empathy but it's due to anxiety on their part, not being insensitive to others.

How well they can manage this and learn new social skills is a spectrum and like any spectrum, I think it's good to be cautious about generalizing.

I think that underlying your difficulty with Aspies is the PTSD that was established in your childhood- and behaviors that appear to be like what you were raised with can be "interpreted" emotionally through this.

My reason for thinking this is that it has happened to me. I have a hard time dealing with angry people.

Once a parking attendant yelled at me for unintentionally parking in the wrong space. No problem- I simply moved my car but she didn't have to yell at me like that. Did she have a disorder? A more likely interpretation was - she was having a bad day, maybe some other drivers were irritated at her and I happened to be the one that set her off. On my part, I felt disconnected and shook up for a while after that as I grew up afraid of my parents being angry at me.

I think if someone else triggers PTSD, or fears, then it's the PTSD we need to work on. The other person didn't necessarily intentionally cause this. It's that we interpret their behavior with our own emotions.

[HappyChappy]

Hey Notwendy, long time. Good to see you are still treading the boards. I see you still can’t remember your username. You’re right we shouldn’t generalise, but generalisations are generally true.

Social anxiety was my ex’s biggest anxiety. Trouble is I’m very socialable, but because she couldn’t bend and moved us a day’s travel from all my friends and family, we ended up living like hermits. She would insist I came straight back from work, to sit in a room together and not talk ? On relfection it was probably because I did all the cooking . . Such is “love”. The irony is I’ve got all my empathy from men, my mom, ex and daughter all don’t have it. Genralisations suggest women have more empathy. Mother knows best. Lol.

I think that underlying your difficulty with Aspies is the PTSD that was established in your childhood

I would agrea. But my ex did some awful things whilst we were being divorced, blaming them on her relatives in the Police. I now understand Asbies are very easily lead. She did apologies, but I have every right to be angry with her (and her relatives in the Police) but maybe not as angry as George's relatives. 

Good to see you again NotWendy