Successful boundary setting with MIL

[pursuingJoy]

Just here to share an update!  I've missed everyone and will need to do some reading to catch up. Quarantine and life changes have really thrown me for a loop.

Quick backstory - simmering issues with uBPD MIL came to a head last year after I told her that her son and I agreed she wouldn't move in with us. Cue rage, attacks followed by victimhood and heavy manipulation of son which resulted in marital counseling, with mixed results.

I've since visited her house for Thanksgiving, Christmas, a family funeral and to help her move. She told her son that she would never visit our house again, later amending her ultimatum to say she would never visit unless I called her personally to invite her. He took the bait and has since blamed me for the rift, saying I could fix it all with a phone call.

The last 4 months have been relatively peaceful. For y'all that know my story, the fact that she moved out of her house to another city about 3 months ago is mind boggling. It's the same distance from us, where her siblings all live, minimal dysregulation throughout the process. 

They talk on the phone every day and their enmeshment hasn't diminished. Two weeks ago, I suspected she'd started to dysregulate again because H was showing signs of anxiety, anger, short temper, restless sleep and depression. Last week he said that he really wanted his mom to see the renovations we've done on our house. He added nervously (almost an attempt at a casual afterthought) that it had to be overnight, and I would have to personally call and invite her.

Since, I've maintained that (1) I want her to see his hard work, (2) I want the visit to be successful, so I need her first visit back to our house to be a day trip and (3) we are married and a joint unit, an invitation from him is an invitation from us, so I will not be personally calling to invite her.

As expected, MIL and H are upset and reject anything less than their demand. Success, though, because I braced for and faced the shaming and guilting, like "I hope you know what you're doing, you're causing irreparable damage" and "what is your problem" and "you just hate my mom," and "you need to forgive her already, nothing she did merits this horrible treatment from you." For some reason, I've successfully shed these accusations and maintained the boundary calmly, without getting sidetracked into defending or explaining. We had a very disappointing but technically successful conversation last night that resulted in "the least bad option:" H is choosing that no visit is better than the compromise I offered because, paraphrasing him, he knows how bad it will get if he tries to explain why she can't spend the night and he is too worried his relationship with her will go south again. He cannot in good conscience tell his mom that we are a unit because he completely disagrees with me and my reasoning.

I'm expecting another heavy wave or two of her, and therefore his, dysregulation, shaming, and guilting. Help me stay strong, folks! I haven't always done this right, but I'm learning to trust my intuition again. Despite what my MIL says, I'm not a bad or hateful person. I'm not being selfish or mean. I've thought through this and and have taken steps to move toward her. I'm calm. I'm strong and tender and doing the best I can to love and stay in my lane.

I've learned that it's one thing to know the tools, it's another thing to live them. Wishing you all the strength you need to take the steps you need to take!   

pj

[GaGrl]

It's good to see you back here, pm -- I've wondered how you were doing.

Good work with your husband and MIL. It's always surprising how what would be a non-issue in most families can turn into such a huge deal with a BPD in the family.

Here's what strikes me most about your husband (although not sure what you can do with it)...

Your husband feels his mother's emotions with her and for her.

He feels her resentment, her distress, her anger, her indignation.

I wonder what his own emotions are, underneath all that he is carrying for her. What a burden, that he can't access his own feelings and desires and needs, because they are buried by hers!

[pursuingJoy]

I've been really overwhelmed and depleted by relationship and pandemic related issues, but I've missed you all.

I think you hit the nail on the head, GaGrl. I asked him yesterday, "How are YOU?" He responded with platitudes about work and that his mom was upset. I repeated, "No, how are you? Outside of your mom, how do YOU feel?" He was genuinely confused. The mother wound is real and raw. He really needed me to give in to her demands, and when I didn't, I saw panic and exhaustion and fear and genuine pain and confusion.

I observed and named his panic once, and another time I said he doesn't need to feel her feelings for her. I know it's not helpful to give unsolicited feedback.

It may be naive, but I feel like the best thing I can do is maintain my boundaries and model how it works. Also, I can stay out of their triangle. When he is left alone to deal with her, he sees a shred of reality. Y'all have offered invaluable support on that.

[Methuen]

PJ - it's so great that you are back!  

simmering issues with uBPD MIL came to a head last year after I told her that her son and I agreed she wouldn't move in with us. Cue rage, attacks followed by victimhood and heavy manipulation

 So a couple of years ago, my H (in your position as SIL) delivered the exact same message to my mom.  Mom reacted a little bit differently than your mom, in that she started telling people publicly in front of us (family and friends), that we had said she couldn't live with us, and she delivered the message with a lot of emotion.  Essentially she tried shaming us publicly to apply more pressure.  Eventually she stopped doing this, because it didn't bring the desired results.  I am not as enmeshed with my mom as your H is, so my H never had to go through what you are going through.  I felt the guilt full-on, but I never considered letting her live with us because I knew it couldn't work.  My H always described us as oil and water (that was before I found this site and forum - I do much better with her now).  Bottom line, I'm fully supporting your stalwart determination to stick to your boundary.  Your MIL moving in could destroy a marriage.  You mention recent marriage counselling has had mixed results, but at least by keeping your boundary (of MIL not living with you), you are giving your marriage the best fighting chance.  Your H is incredibly fortunate to have you for a partner.  Has he made any progress in awareness of his enmeshment with his mom?

They talk on the phone every day and their enmeshment hasn't diminished.

Even if he wanted to change this, would he know how to?  Once a pattern is entrenched, how does a person exit?  I don't have a good answer for this.  To think outside of the box, maybe shorter phone calls would be a start?  Or listening more, and contributing to the conversation less?  But they sound so enmeshed he may not see that as a way to start emotionally detaching.  

She told her son that she would never visit our house again, later amending her ultimatum to say she would never visit unless I called her personally to invite her.

 Holy.  This is using her power to manipulate her son for sure.  She is probably so skilled at manipulation because it has always worked for her.  The only way to break the cycle is to keep doing what you are doing.  "Great work" is all I can say.  This takes  a lot of strength to stand up to, for as long as you have.  You are doing the right thing.

The last 4 months have been relatively peaceful...the fact that she moved out of her house to another city about 3 months ago is mind boggling. It's the same distance from us, where her siblings all live, minimal dysregulation throughout the process.

This is such great news.  I have a lot of hope for you because of this move of hers.  Here's why: my mom is incredibly close to her surviving siblings because of their shared family history (they all survived their FOO trauma). The thing is, they are all spread out and all pretty much about 800 miles away from all the others (siblings).  So what they began doing when they got to old to physically visit with one another, is talk to each other on the phone, sometimes twice a day.  She has 3 siblings that she does that with.  That is a lot of phone time.  For me, it's great, because it's a source of emotional support she doesn't pressure me to give her, the way she used to.  In a sense, they've replaced me in some ways.  I'm hopeful, that the longer your mom is with her siblings (since she lives so close to them), the more she leans on them instead of her son.  That's my wish.  Maybe your H has to be willing to "let go of being needed" so much by her, for that transition to take place.  

One question about the day trip...does your MIL drive?  Would she be driving the 3 hr to your place, and the 3 hour back home, or would your H have to go pick her up and bring her back to your place?  (I can't remember how old she is or if she drives)

I think a short and sweet first visit is a really really good plan.  Keep it positive.  Limit the contact time, so there is less opportunity for things to go south.  Like you said, build on success.  This is essential.  Everyone in this triangle needs to come away from the experience feeling good.  

I braced for and faced the shaming and guilting, like "I hope you know what you're doing, you're causing irreparable damage" and "what is your problem" and "you just hate my mom," and "you need to forgive her already, nothing she did merits this horrible treatment from you." For some reason, I've successfully shed these accusations and maintained the boundary calmly, without getting sidetracked into defending or explaining.

You are a rock. Solid.  I suspect many people are not so successful at this.  I'm really interested in the "for some reason" part.  Can I probe you to think about how you were able to achieve that?

He cannot in good conscience tell his mom that we are a unit because he completely disagrees with me and my reasoning.

Disagreeing that you two are a unit seems a bit irrational and hard to understand...I wonder if he's terrified about how she would respond to this (subconsciously) if he said it to her, and that's why he disagrees?  Telling his mom you two are a unit would probably be interpreted by her as the two of them not being a unit. If that were the case, how might she respond to him?  Does he have the tools to cope with that?  I don't have a solution to offer, just still trying to understand the problem dynamic first...and maybe I'm waayyyyy off base with this surmising.  Just thinking out loud...

Also, I can stay out of their triangle. When he is left alone to deal with her, he sees a shred of reality.

Help me stay strong, folks!

PJ I think you have a complete grasp of the situation and are doing all the right things.  And I say that coming from the position your H is in (as daughter to uBPD mom).  You are kind and empathetic.  You have helped so many people here.  You clearly love your husband to be standing by him the way you have, for so long.  Like you say, you are calm, strong, tender and doing the best you can to love and stay in your lane.  Yours is not an easy path, but your understanding, belief, and perseverence keeps moving you forward.  It's really good to have you back on the board!

[pursuingJoy]

Methuen, hearing your experience gives me empathy for my H and gives me confidence about how to respond. You tell me what I need to hear from him, but he can't say, at least yet.  

Has he made any progress in awareness of his enmeshment with his mom?

As of our last conversation, he claims all responsibility for his mom's behavior saying that it was all his fault for having "poor boundaries." The only example he gives of poor boundaries is his urge to call his mom, who is elderly and two hours away, when his truck broke down. He says he is aware, issues have been addressed, and he can't understand why I set limits.

I've known him to reject an idea, then quietly sit with things for months on end, then come back and admit he was wrong. I know that he knows something is wrong. I don't think he's ready to accept it. I'm focused on staying in my yard. He won't see it until he's ready.

Even if he wanted to change this, would he know how to?  Once a pattern is entrenched, how does a person exit?

I don't know either. A stark difference between you and my H is that he isn't willing to admit that he is hurt by his mother's behavior. He behaves more like an addict with her. Until the addict is ready or hits rock bottom, they won't let go.

Holy.  This is using her power to manipulate her son for sure.  

Yup.

At one point, he asked me, "How would you feel if you hadn't been to visit your child for almost a year and then they invited you, but only for a day?" My response, "If my child invited me to her house after a year, I would very grateful she was opening her door to me. I would see it as a gift. I would respect her space and invitation." He didn't say anything.

This is such great news.  I have a lot of hope for you because of this move of hers.  Here's why: my mom is incredibly close to her surviving siblings because of their shared family history (they all survived their FOO trauma). The thing is, they are all spread out and all pretty much about 800 miles away from all the others (siblings).  So what they began doing when they got to old to physically visit with one another, is talk to each other on the phone, sometimes twice a day.  She has 3 siblings that she does that with.  That is a lot of phone time.  For me, it's great, because it's a source of emotional support she doesn't pressure me to give her, the way she used to.  In a sense, they've replaced me in some ways.  

Listen. I was soo over the moon about this move. It really is an ideal option for all of the reasons you mentioned.   She has friends around her that take her out, siblings check in on her and visit, cousins hang out. H told me several times that she's happier than she's been in years.

This is the first time since the move that she has dysregulated. I don't mean to be cynical but I wonder now if she wasn't 'having a great time' to push into his guilt and worry and fear of rejection, wearing him down until the point where she is now demanding to visit again. H now feels needed again, so it makes sense why he was so angry at me for setting limits on her visit. Does that sound right?  

One question about the day trip...does your MIL drive?  

She does drive. On a whim, she'll drive 2.5 hours to visit her cousins. Where her son is concerned, she finds herself incapable and wants him to do it.

She lives just shy of 2 hrs away. My suggestion was to find a fun place to meet her halfway (there is a winery/alpaca place that we'd talked about visiting last year, good for kids and for her). We could hang out and have fun as a family, then drive her back here so that she can see renovations, maybe grill out, then drive her back up to her car in time for her to make it home so she didn't have to drive in the dark. It was practical and fun and covered all bases.

You are a rock. Solid.  I suspect many people are not so successful at this.  I'm really interested in the "for some reason" part.  Can I probe you to think about how you were able to achieve that?

Sigh. I don't know friend. I don't feel like a rock. My anxiety is through the roof .

Dealing with BPD makes me feel upside down. Identifying the illness and support provide enough equilibrium to help me find my way. Also, continuous learning.

I am in awe of those of you with BPD parents who have faced this pain. So. Much. Respect. I recognize that I do not have the uphill battle that my H has, nor the weight he carries. It's ingrained in him, and I feel empathy for his broken heart. I cannot imagine the weight and confusion and fear that he carries. He's also a grown man who is responsible and capable. I don't pity him. Our burdens are different.

Disagreeing that you two are a unit seems a bit irrational and hard to understand...I wonder if he's terrified about how she would respond to this (subconsciously) if he said it to her, and that's why he disagrees? Telling his mom you two are a unit would probably be interpreted by her as the two of them not being a unit. If that were the case, how might she respond to him?

I think you nailed it. As I write, I realized that he's been trying to tell me this since last year. He knows how bad she can get, and that's why he's been demanding that I acquiesce. He also told me, "I appreciate your offer, but I will not suggest that to my mother because I know how she will take it." That's a measure of acknowledgement, don't you think?

I've considered bringing up BPD, but I was told by the therapist, and suspect myself, that he'll reject any version of his mom being ill or in the wrong. On the other hand, it might help him understand her and give him empathy and tools. I'm torn.

I appreciate your encouragement, and again, your perspective as one in my H's shoes (and having made a good deal of progress that he can't, yet) is absolutely invaluable. Thanks Methuen.  

[Methuen]

As of our last conversation, he claims all responsibility for his mom's behavior saying that it was all his fault

This sounds like it could be his mother's words which he has internalized...?

He says he is aware, issues have been addressed, and he can't understand why I set limits.

Sigh.

I know that he knows something is wrong. I don't think he's ready to accept it. I'm focused on staying in my yard. He won't see it until he's ready.

I am somehow hopeful that with your consistency in boundary setting, and your support, MIL will one day push him too far, and the epiphany could come.  To be fair I was 57 before mine happened.  Prior to that, I travelled with my mother when I was in my late teens and up until I got married (instead of with friends).  When I got married she was my matron of honour.  My best friends were my bridesmaids.  When I look back on it, I can see the enmeshment patterns, but at the time I thought I was doing the right thing to give her that honour.  As you can imagine, she loved the attention of being in the wedding party.  I was pretty enmeshed.  But when I was in my early 40's my dad died, and so mom needed someone new to dump on.  I now believe dad sheltered me as much as possible when I was a kid.  It took another 15 years after his death, for me to reach my limit with her BPD behaviors.  Could'a used you beside me speeding the process up...  The last couple of years I probably had to hear my H say hundreds of times how much "attention" mom needed.  No kidding.  Eventually the broken record technique worked.  But he couldn't help me see the abusive behaviors because she only did them when she was alone with me.  He didn't get that at all.  And with her attention seeking behaviors (amongst others), he was a bit of an overly patient guy towards his MIL - but eventually I could see the signs she was wearing him down too.  And nobody wears him down - he kinda has that reputation.  It was a process for me to see something was wrong with her.  Eventually it clicked when mom pushed me too far, and I finally hit my "rock bottom" as you put it.  And that was when my epiphany happened.  Then the confusion, and the grief.  I think your H is far more enmeshed than I ever was, so if/when his epiphany comes, he might go through a rough spell before recovery.  I hope for all of you that he does have his epiphany too.  That's kind of the short version of how many epiphany came to be.  My point of sharing it is to strengthen your resolve.  

"How would you feel if you hadn't been to visit your child for almost a year and then they invited you, but only for a day?" My response, "If my child invited me to her house after a year, I would very grateful she was opening her door to me. I would see it as a gift. I would respect her space and invitation."

Gosh PJ I think this is a textbook perfect response.  You gave him a completely opposite point of view to see it from.  No wonder he was silent.  

This is the first time since the move that she has dysregulated. I don't mean to be cynical but I wonder now if she wasn't 'having a great time' to push into his guilt and worry and fear of rejection, wearing him down until the point where she is now demanding to visit again. H now feels needed again, so it makes sense why he was so angry at me for setting limits on her visit. Does that sound right?

My guess is that her "great time" was a honeymoon period after moving to where her siblings live.  She could have dysregulated from something as simple as something one of her siblings said (which she interpreted badly) which somehow triggered her.  Once she's triggered, who does she need?  Her #1 son.  Like you say, #1 feels needed, so he instantly reverts to enmeshment mode to meet his mother's emotional needs.  I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist, but from my reading, BPD's don't normally rationally pre-meditate their manipulative behavior.  Instead they resort to these dysfunctional strategies to have their immediate needs met (more as a reaction than a rational pre-mediated plan). Just my thoughts from another perspective, which are based on my experience with only 1 person - my mother, so not much science there.  My mother is a witches cauldron of emotion when she dysregulates, and I've come to see that her behavior with me is completely reactionary because she's hurting intensely, and can't manage those emotions. So she says whatever she has to, to get a desired reaction from me.  Except I know some things now, so I don't give her that reaction any more. She could always be strategic and connive when she wanted something though, so I guess it's all possible PJ.

On a whim, she'll drive 2.5 hours to visit her cousins. Where her son is concerned, she finds herself incapable and wants him to do it.

Classic attention seeking, and a mishmash of controlling/enmeshment quagmire.  Does your H see the inconsistency here at all?

My anxiety is through the roof

Oh dear.  I am sorry to hear this.  I would not have known from your writing if you hadn't disclosed this.  PJ, are you able to find time in your life to look after yourself?  Pampering? Hobbies? Activities?  Or does it feel impossible in a busy life to make time for yourself?  I know you know this, but if stress and anxiety take too big of a toll on your health, how are you going to manage "the long game" in this triangle?  If you don't already have one - please make a plan to find time for yourself.  I sucked at this.  Mom taught me I had to sacrifice myself for everyone else, and that there was honour in doing that, and I did exactly that and burnt out.  Retired a bit early because of it.  Now that I'm retired, I'm learning how to care for myself.  But I should have learned that lesson many decades earlier.  I would have been happier, and everyone else around me would have been happier too.  So please take care of yourself and do things to bring that anxiety level down.  Life-work-play balance...

He also told me, "I appreciate your offer, but I will not suggest that to my mother because I know how she will take it." That's a measure of acknowledgement, don't you think?

Yes to this.  100%.  It also suggests that he has no skills yet to manage her reaction when it comes.  Instead, he will do anything to avoid that reaction. 

I've considered bringing up BPD, but I was told by the therapist, and suspect myself, that he'll reject any version of his mom being ill or in the wrong. On the other hand, it might help him understand her and give him empathy and tools. I'm torn.

He could react and reject the BPD label, especially if it came from you.  But it could be helpful to consistently point out attention seeking behaviors (like my husband did).  I honestly didn't see that's what it was.  Also point out things she is capable of doing, but asks him to do (like driving her).  My H also had to kind of "teach me" that we should let mom do the things she is able, and only support her with the things she is physically unable to do (mowing the lawn etc).  You might find it interesting that I had a counsellor tell me at my very first session about 10 years ago, that it sounded like my mom had BPD.  I had a couple of sessions with her and felt better (probably because mom stopped dysregulating), stopped counselling, and didn't pursue learning about BPD until 9 years later (last summer).  Sometimes seeds have to be planted a very long time, before the conditions are right for them to sprout.
 

[formflier]

Have you asked your husband what a compromise would look like to him?  (I liked the way you redirected the question about his feelings when he kept talking about his Mom, likely will need to do it with this question)

Not an official "suggestion" yet.  More of something to think about for a while.

Deal making and compromise are close cousins.  I'm wondering if it would make sense for you to offer up something you don't want (calling and inviting) for something he doesn't want (yet would benefit your marriage).

What would that be?

Make sure that he does his part first.

What would you ask?  Anything else you could offer?

How do you think he would react? 

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Eventually it clicked when mom pushed me too far, and I finally hit my "rock bottom" as you put it.  And that was when my epiphany happened.  Then the confusion, and the grief.  I think your H is far more enmeshed than I ever was, so if/when his epiphany comes, he might go through a rough spell before recovery.

Methuen it's REALLY helpful to hear about your epiphany. It confirms my goal to stay off the triangle and allow him the opportunity to embrace what he needs to, if and when he's ever ready. My challenge is to take care of myself, and to learn how to have a meaningful relationship with him in spite of all of this.

He is far more enmeshed than you and most here, and you make a great point that if/when he is able to face reality, it will be painful. Sobering.

I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist, but from my reading, BPD's don't normally rationally pre-meditate their manipulative behavior.

Great reminder.

Classic attention seeking, and a mishmash of controlling/enmeshment quagmire.  Does your H see the inconsistency here at all?

He sees the inconsistency but he likes feeling needed, so he glosses over it and goes along.

PJ, are you able to find time in your life to look after yourself?

I'm getting there. H surprised me with a trip to the beach this weekend. He's never done anything like that before and it was a needed get away to reconnect (and look for shark teeth) without kids around. I dabble in gardening, learned how to do my own SNS nails. It takes time to crawl out of a hole, you know? But I'm working on it. I know I'm responsible.

You might find it interesting that I had a counsellor tell me at my very first session about 10 years ago, that it sounded like my mom had BPD.  I had a couple of sessions with her and felt better (probably because mom stopped dysregulating), stopped counselling, and didn't pursue learning about BPD until 9 years later (last summer ).

That is interesting. You knew for 9 years before researching? How did you feel when the counselor told you?

Sometimes seeds have to be planted a very long time, before the conditions are right for them to sprout.
 

This is going on a wall somewhere. Wow.

Have you asked your husband what a compromise would look like to him?

FF, I think this is a great question to pose at some point. I'll tuck it away! I'd be open to a different version of compromise. In this situation, it was their way or nothing at all, so I felt it important to offer up a solution then hold the line there. I'd love it if he got creative and considered an alternative outside of her ultimatums. I need to leave space for that in case it happens.

This weekend H opened up a little about his feelings. He shared a few things, among them, "I'm getting older and realizing that I have less time left. I'm letting go of my mom, and that's hard." He didn't qualify it and I just listened. No matter how he meant it, I do think it's important, albeit painful, to let her go.

Another interesting moment happened this weekend. We were talking about the Karpman triangle and I brought up what I've been learning about the rescuer role, that it's hard to resist when it's someone we love. He agreed but insisted he would never. I reminded him of MIL's neighbor and the cigarettes. (MIL smokes. Her neighbor, in really poor health, asked her to buy him cigarettes. She did, and when he was hospitalized for smoking them, neighbor's wife called MIL, very upset with her. MIL called H crying, so H called the neighbor and fussed at her for yelling at MIL.) He agreed with me that he should have left that alone. I don't know if any of that convo will stick, but maybe a seed?

[formflier]

Did he call his Mom during the beach trip?

if so, were there longer than normal periods of the beach trip where there was no Mom calling.


PJ...I've been thinking about your situation and since your hubby is showing some movement in a good direction, I think it's wise to keep things positive (ask for things) rather than asking for negative (asking him to not do things)


So...much better to say that you enjoyed "uninterrupted" alone time with him and want to schedule more of that...rather than saying "please don't call your Mom during these hours".

Once you have him onboard with saying that he likes the uninterrupted time, then push for more.

At some point there will be a new stasis that is hopefully healthier.

Switching gears:  Good job with the triangle conversation...I think you planted a seed.  How can you nurture that seed?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

I like the idea of asking for a positive instead of a negative. That's doable.

I don't know if they spoke this weekend. He never calls her around me, and only very early in the morning. At one point he was down at the beach with his phone looking for shark teeth. I guess he could have called her then? I didn't ask. It didn't interrupt our time so I wasn't too worried about it.

Other than doing my own work, I'm not sure how else to nurture the seed. Got any thoughts?

[formflier]

Make sure you find time to thank him again for the surprise and for the uninterrupted time.

As a practical matter...it really isn't how much he talks to his Mom..right?  It's how much his relationship with his Mom impacts your relationship with him. 

Do I have that right?

Circling back around to the thanks...I'm sure you have expressed it already, my thought is that you set aside some time this week and "spike the ball" on thanks for him. 

So that could be a great meal and then a massage and...  (well...not sure what you guys are into but..you know..)

Trust me on this...guys are relatively simple creatures.  Food and sex cover lots of stuff..just make sure you are tying a special evening into thanking him again for thinking of you (and acting on it).

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Exactly, FF, not concerned about the frequency as much as I am the impact/expectations/oversharing/general lack of boundaries between them. Last time we vacationed, he didn't call his mom for 5 days. He didn't forewarn her (probably for good reason). He caught holy hell when he finally did call her, in the name of "concern," though she never once tried to call him.

I didn't find out about any of it until we got back and he told me. I don't ask him not to call her. He says he wants to. I don't envy him. He has his hands full.

I've thanked him for the weekend in multiple ways and will continue. Nothing wrong with positive reinforcement and gratitude, right?  

[Methuen]

That is interesting. You knew for 9 years before researching? How did you feel when the counselor told you?

 Well, honestly I didn't feel much because it was just a "name", and not a formal diagnosis.  At the time I had a consuming career (typically 60--70 hr work week), and was raising a family.  So quite frankly, I walked out of there and kind of forgot about it.  I was being pulled in a million different directions, short on sleep, and just never even looked into what BPD meant, although it made enough of an impression to tuck away the "term" into the memory bank.  However, all those years later, as the situation with mom continued to deteriorate, I finally hit my bottom. Then I looked up BPD in the DSM, and sat there and stared at it for a very long time.  Then the thinking started, and the remembering of memories, and the rest is history.  If I'm honest with myself, denial at some level played a role.  I probably wasn't ready to face that back then.  This is one reason why I'm hopeful that your H can one day have his epiphany too.  

[pursuingJoy]

That makes a lot of sense, Methuen. I'm thankful you're willing to share your story. It gives me insight and compassion for my H that I couldn't find elsewhere. 

Also, timing, right? The timing has to be right. Maybe we're not ready, or circumstances aren't lined up yet, or other things need our attention. I know that was the case for me.

I'm  impressed at your courage and the strength it took to embrace what you did, with such resolve and compassion...impressive. 

[Sylfine]

Hi PJ.  I'm new to this board as I just had my epiphany last week and after tons of research and reading books, it really seems my mother has uBPD.  I could have written a lot of your story from your H's perspective (including some of the same quotes he said and the vacation story).  Thank you for sharing all this.  It is really helping me see the light.

[livednlearned]

I hope this isn't too side-tracky ... I'm curious about the choice to have your MIL visit for the day but not overnight.  

I've been trying to prepare for a similar dynamic with uBPD step daughter (23) who will probably be the first person to arrange a visit with us (we recently moved 3000 miles away, a godsend!). My H has an enmeshed relationship with her and there are similar challenges to what you describe between your H and his mom.

How do you navigate the part of your boundary where the BPD person (and enmeshed family member) will only accept A, when there is B and C and D and E for compromise.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is when am I being just as unreasonable.

Or does unreasonable not matter with someone whose focus is to roll over the boundary, regardless of what that boundary is?

[HappyKJ]

Despite what my MIL says, I'm not a bad or hateful person. I'm not being selfish or mean. I've thought through this and and have taken steps to move toward her. I'm calm. I'm strong and tender and doing the best I can to love and stay in my lane.

pj

Wow, just reading these words was validating and helped me to feel much better. I just wrote a very long post about feeling these exact emotions (that I was selfish and a bad person) thanks to a tirade from my uBPD boyfriend. I know it's not true, but I still felt extremely foggy-headed after the rant and was seriously doubting myself, so reading your words gives my strength. Now I just need to work on the boundaries part!

[pursuingJoy]

Hi PJ.  I'm new to this board as I just had my epiphany last week and after tons of research and reading books, it really seems my mother has uBPD.

Sylfine, welcome! I've seen a few of your posts and look forward to learning more about you! Thank you for your feedback.  

Wow, just reading these words was validating and helped me to feel much better. I just wrote a very long post about feeling these exact emotions (that I was selfish and a bad person) thanks to a tirade from my uBPD boyfriend. I know it's not true, but I still felt extremely foggy-headed after the rant and was seriously doubting myself, so reading your words gives my strength. Now I just need to work on the boundaries part!

Isn't it wild how our BPD loved ones have tried the same or similar tactics, down to their word choice? Boundaries are hugely helpful. Have you checked out the article here under the tools tab?

I hope this isn't too side-tracky ... I'm curious about the choice to have your MIL visit for the day but not overnight.  

I've been trying to prepare for a similar dynamic with uBPD step daughter (23) who will probably be the first person to arrange a visit with us (we recently moved 3000 miles away, a godsend!). My H has an enmeshed relationship with her and there are similar challenges to what you describe between your H and his mom.

How do you navigate the part of your boundary where the BPD person (and enmeshed family member) will only accept A, when there is B and C and D and E for compromise.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is when am I being just as unreasonable.

Or does unreasonable not matter with someone whose focus is to roll over the boundary, regardless of what that boundary is?

livednlearned, not side-tracky.   Within reason, I have come to believe that it matters less what a boundary is about, than just sticking to whatever it is. Holding it is more important than making sure all parties understand it as reasonable, because a boundary will most likely seem unreasonable to a pwBPD. It's possible that a boundary is reasonable, if it's reasonable to you.

This will be an overnight visit from your SD, or is she staying in a hotel? What are the options that are being rejected, and what is being proposed? What do you want from the visit?

A little more background in case it helps. In my case I was working from an existing boundary (whew!) and I don't know if this is right, but his absolute refusal to budge felt "off" and just served to affirm my decision to hold the boundary.

For months after our conversation about her not moving in, MIL was threatening never to visit, then visit with conditions, then calling H crying and apologizing for "being such a horrible person" that I couldn't love her. As far as I heard from him, these conversations were happening 2-3 times a week. They were both distressed and blamed me.

Our marriage counselor advised us to take our time rekindling visits with MIL to 'maximize potential for positive interaction.' (I'd also read somewhere that when you feel pressured into something, it's ok to slow down and take your time to respond, even though the BPD thinks it's urgent and they need a response NOW.)

We followed MC's guidance to keep visits short and structured. Over the course of 5 months, we made plans together to H to visit MIL for a birthday, Thanksgiving, then Christmas, then a funeral. All structured, positive visits with plans and other people around.

MIL caught on and was disgusted by our structured visits by Christmas, after which she told H that I was not welcome to visit her again unless I was going to be "more friendly to her." (Another story from another post. I feel comfortable in my level of friendliness to her, and H said he was also ok with it.) H told me a few times in the past 5 months that MIL didn't care to have a relationship with me any more. This distressed him but life went on.

First red flag: out of the blue, H told me he wanted his mom to come visit. He was trying for casual afterthought, right before we went to sleep, but he was nervous. It was also a statement, not a dialogue. I said I was willing to consider it, but I'd like to talk more about it. He got upset and refused to talk any more. That's when I knew something more was behind all of this.

While my preference was to just say no (my home is a safe haven to me and I don't like hosting people who don't feel good), that night I leveled out and got my heart rate down. I know he loves his mom so I worked to come up with a reasonable compromise that fell in line with our agreement, even planning it out and offering ideas on how to make it fun for all.

The next day he sent me an email, "I don't understand what the big deal is. At some point you have to let this go."

I offered my ideas, reminding him of the boundary we'd agreed on, to take visits slow and keep them short and structured to maximize potential for success. This was her first visit to our house in 18 months, I wanted it to end well.

Second red flag: he immediately declined and said he was NOT budging on overnight. He never explained why, other than to say, "Who tells their mom she can't stay overnight? Who DOES that?"

He fluctuated between appeals, frustration, condescension, and anger. He told me I was overreacting, I didn't understand family, I'd changed, she's all he has left, she's going to die soon, I didn't set limits with my own family.

Third red flag: I felt a lot of pressure.

I kept responses short and consistent, and repeated what I could offer.

I did not expect him to unequivocally shut down my suggestions the way he did. It was his way or nothing at all. I'm not sure if it's right or wrong, but his black and white approach affirms my decision to reset the boundary.

I can also tell you what I wish I'd seen more of: patience with me, acknowledgement of past harm done, reassurances that he would be on the lookout and how he planned to respond to her if she picked up her old games, understanding that we would take it slow, gratitude that I was willing to host her, gratitude that I was willing to plan a visit, ideas of his own on how to make it work, a 'team' attitude. I shared some of this with him, more as a guide, to communicate the sorts of things that would make me feel more comfortable. He didn't respond.

I've learned to offer options. When H chose to decline (a viable option), I said he knew his mother better than I did and I respected him to do what he thought best. For a moment he tried to tell me that I didn't give him any choice, but he dropped it. He often feels powerless when it comes to his mom. He may not have liked what he had to choose from, but I made sure he had agency to choose.

I wonder some days if this has little to do with me. He doesn't seem confident in his relationship with his mom.

[formflier]

I think you need to follow up and focus on his "admission" that he "doesn't understand"...

That's something you can validate and you can agree with 100% (always good to find them making these kinds of statements).  This way you are on the same team.

Then...all you need to do is stay curious. (DO NOT OFFER ANY SOLUTIONS)

"Boy..I'm curious what we could do about lack of understanding?"

Switching gears:  There is a basic question about peoples roles in a marriage.  Is one of those roles to protect the other against people being "mean" to them. 

Really the better question is should a spouse hold up their partner to be cherished and loved...and how should they react/act when people come across as less than cherishing to their spouse (see how that feels different than waiting until someone is "mean" to your spouse?)

Note:  In my examples there were no caveats...no protected people that get to be "mean".

Last:  What would you need to see/experience to feel ok with overnight visits by Mom?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

livednlearned, I tried to edit my previous comment but it timed out.

If boundaries are defined as "the life skill of openly communicating, asserting, and defending personal values," then wouldn't it make sense that they don't necessarily have to be reasonable to someone else?

I value feeling safe in my home. I've always been cautious about who I invite, including my own family. There is flexibility here - I stay open, I'm willing to communicate and consider options.

I think the question is not whether values or boundaries are reasonable, it's how to navigate relationships when your values clash. H values time with his mom. How do I respect his value, even though it clashes with my desire to feel safe in my home?

Excerpt from our boundaries article:

"Having a healthy relationship takes a great deal of self-awareness and knowing:

1. which of our values are independent, core values to be upheld by us and defended (in a constructive way, of course),

2. which values need to be more open for compromise or replacement based on our desire to bond and build relationships with others (partner, friend, relative), and

3. how, in difficult situations, to look across multiple values and balance priorities."

If I can cross check my boundaries against the standard above and still feel good, it's a good boundary.   That's just me.

"Boy..I'm curious what we could do about lack of understanding?"

I'll try this!

Really the better question is should a spouse hold up their partner to be cherished and loved...and how should they react/act when people come across as less than cherishing to their spouse (see how that feels different than waiting until someone is "mean" to your spouse?)

For sure!

Last:  What would you need to see/experience to feel ok with overnight visits by Mom?

I'm not sure I know. I think I would feel more confident if I felt a sense of 'team' from my husband when we are with her. When we visited his mom at Christmas, he stuck to her side like glue while I hung out with the kids. I invited them to play cards with us and they declined. He was fine when we left, but then his mom reported that she was hurt because I was unfriendly, so he adopted the same view and railed on me for being unfriendly. It makes future visits something to be handled with care.

[formflier]

He was fine when we left, but then his mom reported that she was hurt because I was unfriendly, so he adopted the same view and railed on me for being unfriendly. It makes future visits something to be handled with care.

PJ

Can you kinda "bulletize" the issues Mom reports having with you?

Same thing for issues you have with Mom.

Switching gears:  Many times "we" (the nons) show up here fundamentally thinking about things in a wrong way.

For instance...why on earth would you "handle a visit with care" because after a visit and after you had been friendly to Mom, she reported you to the unfriendly police.

Is she not entitled to her own opinion of what is "friendly"?  Perhaps you guys have different definitions.

Is it ok to have different definitions?

Important to keep in perspective.  How would you handle it if she reported you as being a space alien or perhaps she was upset because you used your mind control powers?

What makes "unfriendly" different?

Big breath:  None of this is to say someone is right or wrong, it is to say that there are often vastly different perspectives on the same "issue".

Last thing for now.

Visits handled with care...

or

I better walk on eggshells for future visits because...

In your opinion, how are those two things different?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Our marriage counselor advised us to take our time rekindling visits with MIL to 'maximize potential for positive interaction.'

I'm envious that you have this. We had something like this about 5 years ago when things were more acute (SD23 was then living with us). H and I went to couples counseling and the overall focus was to turn toward each other and shore up our marriage. Boundaries with SD (18 at the time) were to flow from that foundation.

Just curious, has your H ever acknowledged he is enmeshed with mom?

While my preference was to just say no (my home is a safe haven to me and I don't like hosting people who don't feel good), that night I leveled out and got my heart rate down.

Does your H understand that this is what you are going for? To have a safe home?

I know he loves his mom so I worked to come up with a reasonable compromise that fell in line with our agreement, even planning it out and offering ideas on how to make it fun for all

It sounds like both mom and H detected where the boundary was and that's what they focused on.

The next day he sent me an email, "I don't understand what the big deal is. At some point you have to let this go."

I am pretty sure I have received an email with those same words. Or had them said to me.

"Who tells their mom she can't stay overnight? Who DOES that?"

That one is also familiar, except child in place of mom.

He fluctuated between appeals, frustration, condescension, and anger. He told me I was overreacting, I didn't understand family, I'd changed, she's all he has left, she's going to die soon, I didn't set limits with my own family

My goodness, he is good!

I kept responses short and consistent, and repeated what I could offer.

That is admirable.

I can also tell you what I wish I'd seen more of: patience with me, acknowledgement of past harm done, reassurances that he would be on the lookout and how he planned to respond to her if she picked up her old games, understanding that we would take it slow, gratitude that I was willing to host her, gratitude that I was willing to plan a visit, ideas of his own on how to make it work, a 'team' attitude. I shared some of this with him, more as a guide, to communicate the sorts of things that would make me feel more comfortable.

This is very helpful. Thanks for itemizing what you hoped to hear in return. Do you stay calm throughout all of these reactions?

My H can do this when he is not feeling backed into a corner. I can tell when he's feeling that way because he begins to kitchen sink me with allegations that are almost nonsensical so for the most part I sigh and let him know we can pick this up when he is at baseline.

He often feels powerless when it comes to his mom.

I know H feels this way too, with SD23.

One skill that has helped a lot is coming up with compassionate ways to describe some of SD23's behaviors. He can agree that yes, SD23 does these things.

I wonder some days if this has little to do with me. He doesn't seem confident in his relationship with his mom.

I suspect with my H it's an attachment bond that provokes intense and sometimes unbearable feelings of fear (a feeling he does not tolerate well).

When he feels fear, he responds as though attacked.

I am pretty good at not making things worse.

My challenge is when I self-negotiate over things that I perceive are probably reasonable. Like: it's probably reasonable for SD23 to stay overnight.

I have become much more skilled at neutralizing her, H has become better at acknowledging SD23's problematic behaviors (with me), therefore he is better at not expecting me to roll over when it comes to her. I have asked for some (sometimes seemingly odd) concessions and he has conceded.

We are in a better place overall.

Still, I do not want her to visit overnight, even though getting to a better place led H to think we have earned some flexibility, especially with covid limiting travel and whatnot.

I guess what I'm sensing from you is that the boundary is the boundary is the boundary, especially when you sense MIL and H are still intent on rolling over it. Whereas in my case, there have been some important gains and I sense H feels there is evidence for softening the boundary. I know this conversation is coming -- it has appeared in other forms sort of as an aside (like about where guests will sleep when they come), with me suggesting "guests can always stay in that motel where we stayed."

To your point about the boundaries and healthy relationships and values, I can just as easily say yes to overnights and then when SD23 is here, do my own thing, including visiting with friends. My T's response has been, "SD23 can stay in a hotel" or "H and SD23 can go do a fun trip."

What I admire in your example is that you are focusing on the value (safe home), which informs the boundary (no overnights), and then remaining firm in spite of resistance (who does that, she's not going to live long, you aren't friendly, etc).

My tendency is to start to self deal.

[pursuingJoy]

Just curious, has your H ever acknowledged he is enmeshed with mom?

No. I've never used this word with him.

In marriage counseling we talked about his "close relationship" with his mom and the need for boundaries. The therapist would talk to me about how enmeshed he was and his mom's BPD, but she was afraid that it would make him defensive and quit coming.

Does your H understand that this is what you are going for? To have a safe home?

I have explained it. He rejects it. To support this value, he feels pressured to admit that his mom did something wrong, and he can't do that.

It sounds like both mom and H detected where the boundary was and that's what they focused on.

Huh. I hadn't thought about that, you could be right. I've had this happen with other people and other boundaries.

This is very helpful. Thanks for itemizing what you hoped to hear in return. Do you stay calm throughout all of these reactions?

I think this is the first time I've been able to stay calm and maintain a message. I'm prone to shutting down, but I didn't this time.   Progress.

My H can do this when he is not feeling backed into a corner. I can tell when he's feeling that way because he begins to kitchen sink me with allegations that are almost nonsensical so for the most part I sigh and let him know we can pick this up when he is at baseline.

I love that you made "kitchen sink" into a verb. I'm reminding myself of this next time he kitchen sinks me. It will give me an internal smile.

One skill that has helped a lot is coming up with compassionate ways to describe some of SD23's behaviors. He can agree that yes, SD23 does these things.

Thank you - this does work, and I need to remember that I have this tool.  

I suspect with my H it's an attachment bond that provokes intense and sometimes unbearable feelings of fear (a feeling he does not tolerate well).

I'm intrigued. Tell me more about your thoughts on this, if you don't mind!
 

We are in a better place overall.

I'm really glad to hear this. H seems to be making concessions and working with you.

I know this conversation is coming -- it has appeared in other forms sort of as an aside (like about where guests will sleep when they come), with me suggesting "guests can always stay in that motel where we stayed."

To your point about the boundaries and healthy relationships and values, I can just as easily say yes to overnights and then when SD23 is here, do my own thing, including visiting with friends.

I'm glad you shared this because it highlights another difference. If MIL came to visit it would be another level of offense to suggest that she stay in a hotel. If I took off to do my own thing while she was visiting, it would be perceived as rude. I'm concerned that either of these options would fuel more frustration on all sides, hence the short and structured visits as suggested by the T.

I guess what I'm sensing from you is that the boundary is the boundary is the boundary, especially when you sense MIL and H are still intent on rolling over it. Whereas in my case, there have been some important gains and I sense H feels there is evidence for softening the boundary.

This is where I'm at for now. I'm open to shifting the boundaries in the future, but this is the best decision I know to make at the moment.

You say "H feels there is evidence for softening the boundary." How do you feel?

Can you kinda "bulletize" the issues Mom reports having with you?
Same thing for issues you have with Mom.

Me: I am unforgiving, I hold grudges, I don't love her, I don't care about family. That's what I know of.

Her: history of lacking boundaries (walked in on me peeing), rude comments (about food, kids, housekeeping), manipulation (playing the victim so H rescues), oversharing (first time she and H met my mom, MIL told my mom everything about H's affair in his previous marriage), intrusive comments and questions (money, sex life), giving gifts with obligations attached.

For instance...why on earth would you "handle a visit with care" because after a visit and after you had been friendly to Mom, she reported you to the unfriendly police.

Is she not entitled to her own opinion of what is "friendly"?  Perhaps you guys have different definitions.

She's absolutely entitled to her opinion, or never wanting me in her home. I really don't have an issue with her 'reporting me to the unfriendly police'

When we talked this through in marriage counseling in Jan, our main discussion centered around the lack of differentiation between H and MIL. If she is hurt, he is equally hurt and responsible to exact vengeance. I've seen this dynamic play out with multiple people around MIL. When I am the one that caused her hurt, he attacks and accuses me to protect his mom. Do the accusations define me? Nah. Are they exhausting, and sometimes cause issues in my relationship with my husband? Yeah. I see wisdom in structuring visits to minimize the damage to my marriage.

Visits handled with care...
or
I better walk on eggshells for future visits because...
In your opinion, how are those two things different?

Our goal, as discussed with the therapist, was to keep visits short and structured to minimize open down time and leave having had positive contact. Walking on eggshells is rooted in fear and means shrinking away. Visits handled with care is a proactive and positive step.
 

[HappyKJ]

Isn't it wild how our BPD loved ones have tried the same or similar tactics, down to their word choice? Boundaries are hugely helpful. Have you checked out the article here under the tools tab?

Thank you, Pursuing Joy. I did check out the article and found it really well-written, though rather abstract -- I still don't know exactly how to go about creating boundaries. Am currently reading Stop Walking On Eggshells and it is very eye opening; hoping to find some answers.

[Methuen]

Within reason, I have come to believe that it matters less what a boundary is about, than just sticking to whatever it is. Holding it is more important than making sure all parties understand it as reasonable, because a boundary will most likely seem unreasonable to a pwBPD. It's possible that a boundary is reasonable, if it's reasonable to you.

"Having a healthy relationship takes a great deal of self-awareness and knowing:

1. which of our values are independent, core values to be upheld by us and defended (in a constructive way, of course),
2. which values need to be more open for compromise or replacement based on our desire to bond and build relationships with others (partner, friend, relative), and
3. how, in difficult situations, to look across multiple values and balance priorities."
If I can cross check my boundaries against the standard above and still feel good, it's a good boundary.  

As I hear it, one of your values is feeling emotionally safe in your own home.  That seems like a very reasonable boundary. No one can argue with your feeling of safety (or not feeling safe), because it is yours.  However, from past experience with MIL in your home, this value wasn't able to be maintained.  Enmeshed H and MIL triangulate, and blame you. Bad things get said, and leave you feeling emotionally unsafe (probably from a few angles).  Does that sound about right?  Based on thoughts and advice from your marriage counsellor, it's been suggested to keep visits short, and sweet (and maybe not overnight to start)?

Lots of talk on this thread about negotiating (the staying overnight thing), but should we negotiate where our value of personal safety feels at risk?

It may be naive, but I feel like the best thing I can do is maintain my boundaries and model how it works. Also, I can stay out of their triangle. When he is left alone to deal with her, he sees a shred of reality.

Back to this, and staying out of their triangle.  As long as she comes for night on a first visit, the risk of them triangulating is higher.  On the other hand, if there are some shorter and sweeter visits to start with, success is more likely, and then it becomes possible to build on that success in a step like fashion.  Before boundaries can soften, there needs to be a foundation of positive interactions and experiences first right (?), or, when the problems start, what is there to fall back on other than negative past experiences?  At least if there have been small small (baby step) successes, there is something positive to fall back to, and pick up from.

I think you've chosen the lane you are in for thoughtful reasons based on experience.  It seems like a good lane for the driving conditions.

[GaGrl]

What I would be struggling with in this situation is that MIL clearly stated to H that she no longer wanted a relationship with  you, yet it appears that her change of mind is requiring way too much action on your part.

Did anyone ask if you wanted to resume a relationship with her? What if you didn't choose to do so?

OK, assuming you are open to the relationship with boundaries, it might be nice to receive some assurance that MIL's previous behaviors won't be repeated. (They probably will, but it would be nice to know she's aware of the expectations in your home.)

[formflier]

Sometimes I have to do a double take and make sure I have the story right.

Her: history of lacking boundaries (walked in on me peeing)

So...Mom barges around the house, opening doors and this include opening a door while you were peeing.

Is it safe to say that you would like to feel "safe" in your own home to go pee...without visitors?

I have explained it. He rejects it. To support this value, he feels pressured to admit that his mom did something wrong, and he can't do that.

And...to be clear...your husband rejects your request to be safe in your home? 

What is he rejecting?

Does he prefer you to feel unsafe?

One thing I noted is he (and lots of other pwBPD) like to engage in binary or black and white thinking.

Right and wrong. 

Perhaps you can move away from that and simply say..."I prefer to pee in privacy and won't debate it as right or wrong."

Wow...

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I'm intrigued. Tell me more about your thoughts on this, if you don't mind!

This is probably not a very coherent explanation but here goes anyway!

Dr. Craig Childress, a psychologist we talk about over on the family law board, discusses attachment theory (emotional bonds with a primary caregiver are hardwired into our survival even if and when that caregiver is unfit) and family systems theory (the family as an emotional unit) when he discusses pathogenic parenting (his term for borderline traits that manifest when the disordered person becomes a parent), and how in pathogenic parenting, there is a reversal in the natural order between kids and their parents. Under pathogenic parenting, children are expected to meet the needs of their caregiver versus the opposite. Meaning, kids with BPD parents can feel like their own lives are somehow at risk if they do not meet the needs of the parent (who they believe are caring for them, not recognizing the distortion or reversal). "I take care of you so I am safe." Versus "You take care of me so I am safe."

All that is to say that when I apply even gentle pressure to the attachment bond between H and SD23, especially given her presentation as a victim who needs rescuing, it activates fear in H. Which gives way to anger. He was raised by two parents who had severe deficits and in all likelihood BPD traits. His perception of family is that he meets the needs of (especially) vulnerable females, even when those females are abusive to him.

Fear is not a tolerated emotion, especially with a disordered mother and father who expected confidence and success and strength from a child they depended on for emotional comfort. For H, rescuing = love. And no boundaries = love.

When I assert boundaries it's like I'm attacking the very foundation of love and family in his mind and he responds protectively (anger), although what I can also feel is the underlying and unrecognized fear that his needs have been tragically ignored, as they are when SD23 demands her needs must be met first.

One of the boundary issues with SD23 is that, when she lived with us, I noticed an almost spousal like demeanor toward H (reciprocated). I sense that is present in your H's relationship with his mother?

Is his enmeshment ever socially inappropriate (like physical affection that makes others uncomfortable) or takes him away from something he is enjoying (like being out with friends and taking calls from mom, who is in a pseudo-crisis)?

You say "H feels there is evidence for softening the boundary." How do you feel?

Conflicted.

There is a history of "give an inch take a mile" with SD23.

I also feel I can better tolerate things when I know there is a hard end date attached. Which there would be with a week-long visit.

Do you feel any physical aversion when you think about MIL staying with you?

I see wisdom in structuring visits to minimize the damage to my marriage.

I really appreciate this language. Structuring visits to minimize damage to your marriage is very helpful! I have been looking for words to summarize why x helps minimize y for z.

[pursuingJoy]

What I would be struggling with in this situation is that MIL clearly stated to H that she no longer wanted a relationship with  you, yet it appears that her change of mind is requiring way too much action on your part.

I hadn't yet figured out a way to verbalize why all of that bothered me. Thank you.

She throws around threats and accusations and we dismiss her and her words, assuming they're empty. I wonder what would happen if we followed through and acted on her words? She stated she never wanted me in her home again. Why did I ignore that and go back for the funeral?

Did anyone ask if you wanted to resume a relationship with her? What if you didn't choose to do so?

Yes, this was brought up in marriage counseling. If she wasn't my MIL, I would not want her in my life. She is, and for my husband's sake, I'm willing to put in the effort. I've been working towards compromise: a relationship with boundaries. But there may be no compromise because in H's eyes, a relationship with boundaries feels worse than no relationship at all. Setting and maintaining boundaries with his mom is about as appealing as being voluntarily dragged over hot coals, and he actively refuses to do it. He's told me that unless I'm planning to "let this go," it would be better to not have a relationship with her.

livednlearned nailed it here, I'm starting to see why he responds the way he does. y'all are helping me put some pieces together.

Fear is not a tolerated emotion, especially with a disordered mother and father who expected confidence and success and strength from a child they depended on for emotional comfort. For H, rescuing = love. And no boundaries = love.

When I assert boundaries it's like I'm attacking the very foundation of love and family in his mind and he responds protectively (anger), although what I can also feel is the underlying and unrecognized fear that his needs have been tragically ignored,

Does he prefer you to feel unsafe?

I agree with you that binary thinking is definitely coming in to play. Walking in on me peeing is the only thing he will admit is "a little weird. But that's just mom."

What he rejects is that I feel unsafe when she is here. I share this feeling with him, he disagrees and rejects it as false. He's protective of me because he's been groomed to be that way. If someone else offends me or his best friend or his mom in the slightest, he strongly and vocally dislikes that person. He gets upset on my behalf.

If it were true - in his mind - that I felt unsafe around his mom, he would feel compelled to strongly and vocally dislike his mom. I've never asked for that, but this response is ingrained in him. By rejecting my feeling as false, he feels free to maintain comfortable status quo with his mom and his internal value of being the protective man is upheld and intact.

I used to feel really hurt by his response. I now accept that what I'm feeling is real and valid, whether he accepts it or not, and his response has little to do with me and everything to do with how he's been groomed by his mother.

Meaning, kids with BPD parents can feel like their own lives are somehow at risk if they do not meet the needs of the parent (who they believe are caring for them, not recognizing the distortion or reversal). "I take care of you so I am safe." Versus "You take care of me so I am safe."

All that is to say that when I apply even gentle pressure to the attachment bond between H and SD23, especially given her presentation as a victim who needs rescuing, it activates fear in H. Which gives way to anger.

His perception of family is that he meets the needs of (especially) vulnerable females, even when those females are abusive to him.

Fear is not a tolerated emotion, especially with a disordered mother and father who expected confidence and success and strength from a child they depended on for emotional comfort. For H, rescuing = love. And no boundaries = love.

When I assert boundaries it's like I'm attacking the very foundation of love and family in his mind and he responds protectively (anger), although what I can also feel is the underlying and unrecognized fear that his needs have been tragically ignored, as they are when SD23 demands her needs must be met first.

I am so glad I asked about this. Just wow. I bolded lines that really stuck out. I'll need to read up on attachment theory.

Are these conversations you have with your H, or is this what you study and understand to be true, and relate accordingly?

One of the boundary issues with SD23 is that, when she lived with us, I noticed an almost spousal like demeanor toward H (reciprocated). I sense that is present in your H's relationship with his mother?

Yeeesss. What do you see in your H and SD?

I tried to be so careful when bringing this up in counseling. He reached a point one day where he said, "I feel gross when I think about that." Counselor asked him to share more but he deflected and never went back there again. Shame?

I didn't catch these behaviors at first, because they could be argued as normal, especially with an aging parent. For sure, it can be a blurry line. H and MIL have shared bank accounts, his name was on her house until she sold it, he advises her on insurance and buying a car, he will drive 2-3 hours to drive her somewhere when she's fully capable of driving herself. When his truck broke down, his first call was to her, and they made arrangements to replace the transmission. I found out that night that he was broken down on the side of the road and he never thought to call me. That was an "aha" moment for him - he couldn't explain why he called his mom two hours away and not his wife.

When her granddaughter didn't make payments on the car, MIL reported it to H so that he would call her up to yell at her. When she bought a new car, even though her brother in law in the same city was walking her through every step with her in person, H insisted on calling the salesman to haggle on her behalf. At one point I think the salesman was having trouble keeping track of everyone involved.

She has a bad day, he has a bad day. He spends his birthday with her every year, and they do what she wants - last year she wanted to clean off her husband and other son's gravestones. She cried and cried and he came home a mess. He says every year that he hates his birthday. Who wouldn't?

The financial entanglement always felt a bit much. Until last year, he was in debt to her (a good chunk of money). I am gung-ho about paying off all of our debt, including the debt to her. I had a gut feeling that the moment he paid it off, he would find a reason to go back into debt to her...sure enough, within a week of paying it off, he made three suggestions about things he could buy (for me) with a loan from his mom. I gave a firm no thank you.  I've made some headway highlighting that his mom is 73, we are adults with steady jobs, and we shouldn't be relying on his aging widowed mother for money. He understands and accepts this logic, but at the same time I observe an emotional tug to stay financially entangled.

Shrug - I get that some of this might be normal aging parent stuff.  

I think what concerns me most is how he feels (and how she treats him) when he doesn't play this role for her. That's the red flag for me.

Is his enmeshment ever socially inappropriate (like physical affection that makes others uncomfortable) or takes him away from something he is enjoying (like being out with friends and taking calls from mom, who is in a pseudo-crisis)?

They kiss on the mouth. It's not a peck, nor is it tongue. It's a wet, full lips, full on, two second kiss with a sound at the end ('muah'). I know others have commented on it because he warned me about it before we visited the first time, "I know it's weird but we kiss on the mouth." I might argue culture, but no one else in their family or friend circle does it. It grosses me out every time, I try to look away when they kiss and I feel an aversion to kissing him for a while after. I want so bad to ask him to brush his teeth .

I gingerly mentioned it in counseling, he dismissed it with, "it's what we do." Counselor accepted his answer so I took my cue. I do not believe it would make any difference to talk about it. If he kisses me the way he kisses her, I'll joke, "Don't kiss me like you kiss your mom."

He isolates conversations with her so she has his full attention. I don't see any other socially inappropriate behavior. Also, we live in the South (US) so sweet tea drinking and a boy loving his mama are socially promoted behaviors.

I also feel I can better tolerate things when I know there is a hard end date attached. Which there would be with a week-long visit.

So true. How is SD23 coping since you moved? Has there been talk about her moving out there to be near you?

Do you feel any physical aversion when you think about MIL staying with you?

I don't know why this question made me tear up. No one's known to ask, I guess. My stomach muscles tense up and I feel my heart racing. I feel weight on my chest that makes it hard to take deep breaths. I don't sleep well. I feel hyper-alert.

How did you know to ask?

[formflier]

I agree with you that binary thinking is definitely coming in to play. Walking in on me peeing is the only thing he will admit is "a little weird. But that's just mom."

What he rejects is that I feel unsafe when she is here. 

Oh boy...I'm so...so sorry you are having to navigate this.

How has this discussion played out in counseling? 

Are you "allowed" to reject his feelings?   (we all know the real answer here...feelings are what they are...but I'm hoping a skilled counselor might be able to guide him)

I also think this is your answer and "attitude" to future visits (to either home...yours or hers)

"Oh..that's just the way PJ is.  She likes to pee in private."  (said very nonchalantly...no judgment)

Now...if he want's to adopt a different attitude or "standard"...let him go first and then perhaps you an re-evaluate.
 

Best,

FF