New Issue with Family part 2

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345520.0

here is a rough example:

my husband calls me vile nasty names.   = your processing is being done by the emotional side of your brain.   this is personal.    it's emotional.  

my husband calls me names because he has a mental illness. = processing is being done by both the emotional side of the brain and the reasoning side of the brain.  it's still personal.   it's still emotional.  but the reasoning side of the brain has introduced a fact/concept.    the concept helps the reasoning side of the brain begin to engage.

When I think about it I notice my husband calls me names when he feels upset by something and this makes me feel disrespected, and this makes me think I should take action.  =  processing is moving into the wise mind.   a balanced mix of both the emotional and reasoning side of the brain.    the wise mind can take a step back and function independently from the emotions while not disregarding them.

Understanding the concepts that are in play reduces stress.     Knowing the concepts generates action.    Using the tools can be done by a mere rote repetition of X happens I do Y.    that's not terribly effective.  the tools work better when there is an understanding of why they work.

Thanks ‘ducks. This does help. I will work on this.

I am sorry this is so difficult for you UBPDHelp.   I am sorry this is such a hard time.   I appreciate the time you put in trying to make sense of it.     When I read your threads I get a real sense of distress and confusion.    It feels very much to me that my comments in these threads are not as productive as I had wished for.    I think what would be best for me is to allow other members here to participate and offer other perspectives.     Hopefully different voices will pitch in.  
I think sometimes a fresh voice can move the conversation into fresh territory.

respectfully
'ducks

Thanks ‘ducks.

I am distressed, for sure. I think more so because I feel trapped by kid responsibility and oppressiveness of pandemic. These just add to it the considerations and make me fearful of making the change I feel like I need to make.

I don’t have anyone in my personal life that I can share all of this with...yet. And even then, feel like a heavy burden for someone to carry.

I honestly have so very appreciated ALL of your time and shared wisdom and guidance. I have always felt you approached me with such compassion and want for understanding.

That said, I am sorry if my continued pressing has grown (or far surpassed) frustrating. I absolutely respect your need to step back, but do hope you’ll stop by now and again...although I’d like to not need to be here.

Ultimately, I believe I have arrived that the BPD/NPD burdens my H struggles with are insurmountable for me to continue. I wish for him to have peace and even love for himself and what he can offer if he would be willing to get help. I don’t think he will.

But I have a right to pursue my need for peace and stability...wouldn’t you agree?

I have a lot of calls to look inward, to look at my shortcomings. I have no problem doing that and even relish the idea of greater understanding, which may lead to better relationships with kids, family, friends.

I think this is best for when I can focus there rather than having to fend off BPD/NPD attacks while doing so. Maybe that’s what I am capable of. I remain jealous of anyone who can manage both in my climate.

I suspect those with grander views of the possibility of change just haven’t experienced behavior this extreme. That is not meant to downplay or in any way insult, so my apologies if anyone is offended.  I have had time to reflect and believe with near certainty that virtually no one would believe this could truly improve.

BabyDucks...many, many   to you. I will miss having you around.

[UBPDHelp]

Yes


Apply KISS principle.  That results in contacting T.

Apply boundaries.  That results in contacting T.  

Apply the principle of let you do you and let him do him.  That results in contacting T.

Interesting. I feel you haven’t heard me. It’s okay if we disagree. It’s okay if you feel strongly about this. It just isn’t something I am going to do right now.

Re-read material about cognitive distortions.  Ask yourself if it's possible there is one (or several) at play here?

I am flawed. Yep, flawed. But I’m not a raging NPD/BPD. Definitely have codependency and low self esteem...he created, I allowed.

I will take responsibility. I assure you I do not live in constant cognitive distortions. I live in reality. It is NOT normal to send someone over 100 rage text messages calling them a hillbilly slut and demanding answers to goodness knows what questions. It is not normal to drudge up a bf from 30+ years ago. It is not normal to break things. To expect someone to clean up ALL of you messes.

What is my distorted view there?

You don’t like that I say “should”. I challenge you to look at any expectations you have in your relationships. Maybe you don’t have any expectations?

Should the teacher teach?
Should the fireman put out the fire?
Should the child obey the parent?
Should the garbage man pick up the garbage?
Should my friend have my back?

There are many “shoulds” in relationships, don’t you think?

Should I expect my husband to treat me respectfully?
Should I expect not to get relentless vile texts from my husband?
Should I be able to live without worrying what will set him off next?

He did these things, not me.

I treat him with respect. I have not sent one mean, nasty text to him ever. I begin each day as a blessing and no one worries I’m going to fly off the handle for any reason, let alone no reason.

You've been able to contact a L and your hubby did what?

Well, yea, he doesn’t know. And if he found out now or before I was ready, it would be all out war AND need to leave would become immediate.

All of his talk and what he cares about most is how he appears to others. He could not allow anyone to think his life isn’t perfect.

Perhaps you can contact a T and one of the first orders of business can be practicing how to communicate with hubby about a T, if that ever becomes necessary.


Best,

FF

Can we agree that I understand the need?  Can we agree that I don’t believe that currently I can fulfill that need?

IF he ever goes back to work I will try to schedule at a safe time. Until then, it is a moot point.

[UBPDHelp]

So thinking about BabyDucks last post...I’ve really beaten this all to death.

I think my posting need is I have no one/nowhere else to seek advice.

My gauge of “normal” relationships is so jaded, so I look for guidance on my perception. I don’t trust myself. I weigh the vows I made, but yet feel they were never real...at least for him. Or maybe he meant them in that moment...until he didn’t.

Anyway, I know we never tell people to stay or go, but I’m really at a point where I’ve mostly made my decision...not sure if I should share rn.

All of you that have kindly shared your advice and time, could you simply say what you would do knowing my situation and if you were in it?

I think that would help me understand or trust my feelings, thoughts.

Thank you for all of your help!

[stolencrumbs]

So thinking about BabyDucks last post...I’ve really beaten this all to death.

I think my posting need is I have no one/nowhere else to seek advice.

My gauge of “normal” relationships is so jaded, so I look for guidance on my perception. I don’t trust myself. I weigh the vows I made, but yet feel they were never real...at least for him. Or maybe he meant them in that moment...until he didn’t.

Anyway, I know we never tell people to stay or go, but I’m really at a point where I’ve mostly made my decision...not sure if I should share rn.

All of you that have kindly shared your advice and time, could you simply say what you would do knowing my situation and if you were in it?

I think that would help me understand or trust my feelings, thoughts.

Thank you for all of your help!

Hi UBPDHelp,
This is probably not the answer you want here, but I think there's a sense in which everyone here has been answering that question all along. Focus more on yourself. Take care of yourself. Focus less on your H. Try to get more centered. Try to achieve a wise mind. Try to change your own thought patterns. 

Maybe it would be helpful if you stopped struggling with the stay or go decision right now. Let's say that's done. You want to divorce. I don't think anyone has said that's the wrong decision. That's your decision, and that is perfectly okay, acceptable, and understandable. So take that decision off the table. What do you do? You've already decided, reasonably, that right now is not the time to leave. So what do you do? Focus more on yourself. Take care of yourself. Focus less on you H. etc.

Trust me, I know this is hard. Start small. Try to take a day where you just focus on you, and those thoughts don't drift to whether you should stay or go, whether you're justified in leaving, how intolerable living with your H is, etc. Or take note of your thoughts during the day and see how often they drift into that territory, then try to extend that time a little bit. If you typically make it a few hours without having these thoughts, try to push that a little bit. When you're okay with that, push the time frame a little more.

[Cat Familiar]

Here's what I don't understand. You seem certain that you want to leave the relationship. However you've got a new job and you want to make sure that the foundation is strong before you do anything to upset the apple cart.

It seems you're not interested in learning to use the tools we teach here, which not only help communication, but can limit the emotional damage you experience from your husband's dysfunctional behavior.

You apparently want validation from us here that it's OK to end your marriage.

Yet...you're reluctant to do anything that could motivate your husband to begin the process of ending the relationship, though you've previously stated you'd like him to do exactly that.

See why we're confused?

[formflier]

Massive wisdom from stolencrumbs below.  Absolutely massive!  (his entire post, not just below)

Maybe it would be helpful if you stopped struggling with the stay or go decision right now. Let's say that's done. You want to divorce. I don't think anyone has said that's the wrong decision.  

UBPDHelp

I have enormous amounts of empathy, understanding and respect for the situation you are in and for your willingness to "open up your mind and thinking" for discussion.  I hope our observations and advice have helped you and will continue to help you (I believe they have).

I also want you to know that your openness has and will help uncountable other people.  I've lost count of how many times a poster says something like "I've been reading here for years..."  

Props to you for openness and sticking with it.  Please keep it up.

Now...on to FF's "process".  When issues/posts/whatever get kinda "all over the place" and it's obvious the poster (and the responders) are struggling/frustrated I try to step back and figure out "1 issue" to focus on that will move the entire situation forward to something more positive.

Ranking issues might be an appropriate way to look at it.  So here is my number 1.

I simply can't imagine a good/healthy decision being made to divorce (or stay) without the consistent long term guidance of a trained and certified therapist.

It appears there is a great deal of fear involved which is delaying moving forward with getting a therapist.  

My understanding is this fear comes from numerous negative statements your hubby has made about Ts and a belief that he will do lots of bad stuff if you decide to go to a T.  

pwBPD and the nons in relationships with them often seem to get caught in "Catch 22s".  Often that comes from years of conditioning to think/behave a certain way.    (on the part of the non and the pwBPD)

Therefore my "1 thing" that I would suggest is that we break out a separate thread on or continue this thread focused on this "1 thing".  That "1 thing" would be the apparent decision that UBPDHelp will not begin therapy  because of what she believes her hubby's reaction will be.

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting in the least that the other numerous issues swirling around are not worth of deep and in depth discussion.

I am suggesting the subject of therapy is an important enough one to somehow separate it out and explore without distraction.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi UBPDHelp,
This is probably not the answer you want here, but I think there's a sense in which everyone here has been answering that question all along. Focus more on yourself. Take care of yourself. Focus less on your H. Try to get more centered. Try to achieve a wise mind. Try to change your own thought patterns. 

Maybe it would be helpful if you stopped struggling with the stay or go decision right now. Let's say that's done. You want to divorce. I don't think anyone has said that's the wrong decision. That's your decision, and that is perfectly okay, acceptable, and understandable. So take that decision off the table. What do you do? You've already decided, reasonably, that right now is not the time to leave. So what do you do? Focus more on yourself. Take care of yourself. Focus less on you H. etc.

Trust me, I know this is hard. Start small. Try to take a day where you just focus on you, and those thoughts don't drift to whether you should stay or go, whether you're justified in leaving, how intolerable living with your H is, etc. Or take note of your thoughts during the day and see how often they drift into that territory, then try to extend that time a little bit. If you typically make it a few hours without having these thoughts, try to push that a little bit. When you're okay with that, push the time frame a little more.

Hi stolencrumbs,

Thank you for the reply and words of wisdom. I spend much of my day doing other things and focusing on other things. I come here for support and to sort out my thoughts/feelings regarding my H and behavior that is hard to understand.

I certainly believe being stuck home for 4 1/2 months is not helping.

Strangely H has been better behaved. I still see flashes where he starts to lose it but pulls it in. That can be confusing.   

It’s not a simple decision. It doesn’t impact just me. I’m a survivor, I’ve been through a lot and survived. I want to do what’s best for my kids. And true, that is pretty known.

But preparing and making myself stronger is very much my focus. I’m not rushing, I’m considering and reflecting and pondering. Maybe too long and too hard for some, but it’s for me.

So, thank you again.  I read your update and I wish you strength on your journey. I am sorry you are at the receiving end of so much inflicted turmoil. I have faith that you will see yourself on a better path. Congrats on the job...it sounds like an amazing opportunity.

[UBPDHelp]

Here's what I don't understand. You seem certain that you want to leave the relationship. However you've got a new job and you want to make sure that the foundation is strong before you do anything to upset the apple cart.

Hi Cat.  I am pretty certain that leaving will be the best path, true.

Can you elaborate on why ensuring I have a secure job and the ability to support myself and my kids BEFORE upsetting the apple cart is a problem? I guess I don’t see this, but I am open to understanding.
 

It seems you're not interested in learning to use the tools we teach here, which not only help communication, but can limit the emotional damage you experience from your husband's dysfunctional behavior.

I have implemented many tools, established boundaries, learned to not JADE, to use SET, validate, reflect on my contribution to the dynamic (at times wondered if I was the one with the problem).  There may be some things I haven’t done. But, please lmk what I’ve refused to do or not been interested in...I would be open to revisit.

You apparently want validation from us here that it's OK to end your marriage.

I was not asking what to do, I was asking what you would do in my shoes. I assure you I am not the jumping off the bridge type. 

But, I’ve said I don’t have a lot of support and my compass of what is “normal” is askew — this would seem obvious. I don’t entirely trust my judgment. So, yes, I was trying to gauge my feelings against peers who seem to have a better grasp on things than I often do.  My confidence is shot. I second guess.

I was hoping to have some faith that I was heading in the right direction.

It’s fine...I would never want you or anyone to do something they felt was wrong or made them uncomfortable. I’m sorry if my request did that.

Yet...you're reluctant to do anything that could motivate your husband to begin the process of ending the relationship, though you've previously stated you'd like him to do exactly that.

I am reluctant right now. Should I decide to end a 25+ year marriage after five months of exploring?  Maybe. Should I be prudent and confident in my decision? If at all possible. Should I plan for best case scenario? Worst? Yes, yes. Will there be an ideal time? Probably not.

My want to edge him that way was not to create an explosion. It was foolishly and childishly hoping he would meet an old flame on Facebook or elsewhere and ride off into the sunset, taking his dysregulations with him.

So, until such time as I am ready for the consequence of doing so, I will wait and find other ways to get support and help my kids. If that means I need to go elsewhere, then so be it.

See why we're confused?

I don’t know what to say.

Thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

Massive wisdom from stolencrumbs below.  Absolutely massive!  (his entire post, not just below)

UBPDHelp

I have enormous amounts of empathy, understanding and respect for the situation you are in and for your willingness to "open up your mind and thinking" for discussion.  I hope our observations and advice have helped you and will continue to help you (I believe they have).

Thank you.

I also want you to know that your openness has and will help uncountable other people.  I've lost count of how many times a poster says something like "I've been reading here for years..."  

Props to you for openness and sticking with it.  Please keep it up.

Thank you. I don’t know.

I’m not opposed to reflecting on myself. I’m not opposed to taking responsibility. I can admit that when the dysregulations, manipulations and other NPD things happened, I was wholly unprepared and handled it all completely wrong.

But I didn’t cause this. I don’t black and white think. I don’t think he's all bad. I don’t think he’s a horrible person. I understand he is ill. I feel sorry for that and for whatever he endured that caused it and continues to plague him.

But he has done horrible things. Said horrible things. Taken advantage of me and my good nature.

Now...on to FF's "process".  When issues/posts/whatever get kinda "all over the place" and it's obvious the poster (and the responders) are struggling/frustrated I try to step back and figure out "1 issue" to focus on that will move the entire situation forward to something more positive.

My frustrations have not primarily been here. My frustrations are from my experiences in my relationship with my H.

The bottom line is I have implemented boundaries and stood up for myself in areas that were lacking, but needed. I have asked for things I want. Yes, much has gotten better. Is it enough? I don’t think so.

And I don’t think I can live on guard all the time. (Not literally all).

It’s my fault for dumping all my thoughts out here trying to decipher them and understand. Help to understand. Trust my interpretation. I should have just reflected for myself.

Ranking issues might be an appropriate way to look at it.  So here is my number 1.

I simply can't imagine a good/healthy decision being made to divorce (or stay) without the consistent long term guidance of a trained and certified therapist.

Maybe, although a large percent of the population does not. It may not be preferred here, but it is still a great number.

And, I’ve never said I wouldn’t. I just won’t right now.

It does confuse me the insistence that the next two months make a difference. What does right now change that is not also accomplished in two months?

It appears there is a great deal of fear involved which is delaying moving forward with getting a therapist.  

My understanding is this fear comes from numerous negative statements your hubby has made about Ts and a belief that he will do lots of bad stuff if you decide to go to a T.

The fear is not of the therapist. It’s not even (really) of his reaction. It’s that when he reacts poorly it sets the ball in motion for the things I am not prepared to handle.

Simplicity sake, yes, I’d like to know my job is secure. That I can feed my kids, that they have a warm bed.

Not so simple, am I in a place I can manage charming, begging, pleading?
Am I currently prepared for an onslaught of attacks?  Will he go after my job (look at stolencrumbs), will he disparage me to friends, family? Almost certainly. I know it’s going to happen...is it wrong to be mentally, emotionally and physically in a place to manage this?

Please enlighten me why preparing myself to handle this is wrong before I start triggering the things that will cause the need?  We prepare for all kinds of things...why is this different?

pwBPD and the nons in relationships with them often seem to get caught in "Catch 22s".  Often that comes from years of conditioning to think/behave a certain way.    (on the part of the non and the pwBPD)

Therefore my "1 thing" that I would suggest is that we break out a separate thread on or continue this thread focused on this "1 thing".  That "1 thing" would be the apparent decision that UBPDHelp will not begin therapy  because of what she believes her hubby's reaction will be.

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting in the least that the other numerous issues swirling around are not worth of deep and in depth discussion.

I am suggesting the subject of therapy is an important enough one to somehow separate it out and explore without distraction.

Best,

FF

I just point to my above response. We can discuss this but at this time I need to understand why it must be now.

Thanks FF, you have shown me many new ways to view things, taught me some new words — some real, some made up — and always willing to have another go at it. I appreciate that.

[formflier]

Big breath.  I'm not criticizing or arguing with you.  I'm attempting to shine light on something it appears you are blind to.
 
It appears to me you are certain he will react badly.

The fear is not of the therapist. It’s not even (really) of his reaction. It’s that when he reacts poorly it sets the ball in motion for the things I am not prepared to handle.
 

Then below it appears you believe it "strange" or that you don't understand your husbands new way of behaving.

Strangely H has been better behaved. I still see flashes where he starts to lose it but pulls it in. That can be confusing.   

Here is the thing.  I don't think his behavior is the least bit strange.  Broadly speaking he has been reacting/acting (which is changing for the better) like many other pwBPD in his situation and as predicted.


The concept of cognitive distortions has been raised and several of us have suggested there are many at play in your situation.  Certainly you have acknowledged that you do some of them

I don’t do most of these. Some I do some of the time.
 

That said there is a massive gulf between what I see and what you seem to be seeing.

There are limits to how well those can be addressed in an online forum like this.  Much more effective to work through these with a properly trained therapist.

It's obvious to me that you take your marriage, your vows, you family all very seriously and want the best for them.  Yet there seems to be fear/resistance to therapy based on your belief of what you hubby will do.

Yet...that in an of itself appears to be a cognitive distortion.

Catastrophizing
This distorted type of thinking leads people to dread or assume the worst when faced with the unknown. When people catastrophize, ordinary worries can quickly escalate.

For instance, an expected check doesn’t arrive in the mail. A person who catastrophizes may begin to fear it will never arrive, and that as a consequence it won’t be possible to pay rent and the whole family will be evicted.

It’s easy to dismiss catastrophizing as a hysterical over-reaction, but people who have developed this cognitive distortion may have experienced repeated adverse events — like chronic pain or childhood trauma — so often that they fear the worst in many situations.

Yes it is 100% true that your husband has behaved badly..very badly...in the past. 

That doesn't mean he will behave badly in the future and if he does make some negative efforts you have the benefit of the tools you have learned and would have the additional benefit of a therapist to guide you.

I'm positive I haven't answered all your questions.   I think it wisest to come back to them later (I promise..hold me to it)

Please do one thing for me.  Don't focus on whether you agree or disagree with my points...please focus on if you understand them.

What if the things you assumed were true, were not.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Big breath.  I'm not criticizing or arguing with you.  I'm attempting to shine light on something it appears you are blind to.

What am I blind to?  Please tell me. (This is not an argument, this is a request for enlightenment.)
 

It appears to me you are certain he will react badly.

This?  I don’t think this is blind to anything. This is awareness.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.  Do you agree?

I will not go black and white here. I will put the chance that he will react badly at 90%.

I would suggest we consciously and subconsciously weigh the likelihood of success for most (not all) choices we make, and certainly with weighty ones.

MIL sent SIL to a therapist as a teenager at onset of MIL/FIL divorce. SIL left blaming MIL for everything that was wrong in her life. SIL physically ran away and didn’t return for years. I have heard for 25 years that Ts are bad and push agenda and get paid to cause more disruption.

I would agree that this is a distortion. My assessment?  MIL behaved badly during divorce, and likely had prior.  T worked with SIL dealing with whatever fallout she experienced. Some of that was facing the dynamic between them. MIL thought (and continues to think) that she did nothing wrong, and whether that is true or not, definitely was unwilling to accept that these were issues SIL was trying to come to terms with. MIL felt attacked, retaliated (and yes there was some physicality to it) and SIL disappeared. H loudly and proudly states that T are horrible, disruptive people who break up families whenever they get involved. (I’m not sure how to convince you that this is the case if my word is not enough.)

Is this catastrophizing if I consider H and MIL’s assessment of this situation?  Or could this be using knowledge I have gained to contribute to my decision?  How much weight should this knowledge have? 10%? 50%? More? Less?

Add that H has done many HC divorces and custody battles with accusations from hiding bank accounts to child abuse of every kind. Add working with GALs and many Ts and almost every time has said they have entirely messed (curse words) up the clients life.

Again, should I consider that this is his perception when he has actually stated it?  Doesn’t mean I agree with it, I’m just simply aware of his view. No deducing, he’s told me.

And, taking what I’ve learned here...he will likely view my need for T as a threat to him and trigger his fear of abandonment.  Roll the dice how he will respond?

This does not even consider that he won’t know WHY I, or kids, would even need/want to talk with someone.

So I hear loud and clear a resounding need for T.  I’m looking forward to it but practically speaking, believe now is now the time. This is a strategic call.  You all may believe that is the wrong reason to wait.  If I change my mind, I’ll let you know.

Then below it appears you believe it "strange" or that you don't understand your husbands new way of behaving.

Here is the thing.  I don't think his behavior is the least bit strange.  Broadly speaking he has been reacting/acting (which is changing for the better) like many other pwBPD in his situation and as predicted.

Strange was a poor choice of words. Clearly I know that I am reaping some benefits from boundaries, new communication styles.

It’s a lot of effort and I’m not convinced I can sustain it. I need to be on alert for boundary breaks at all times. I don’t believe I should have to do this. He’s like a velociraptor always testing for the weak spot. That is exhausting.

So to embrace cognitive distortions — which I would suggest I have been doing since the beginning in my quest to see if my view was off kilter —

I don’t think a healthy relationship should spend a majority of the time militantly holding boundaries to prevent being taken advantage of, threatened or abused by the SO.

Is this a distortion?  Is this wrong? (I’m really asking, not challenging)

The concept of cognitive distortions has been raised and several of us have suggested there are many at play in your situation.  Certainly you have acknowledged that you do some of them

That said there is a massive gulf between what I see and what you seem to be seeing.

Please elaborate. Again this is not a challenge, I really am asking you to list for me what you see as my distortions.

There are limits to how well those can be addressed in an online forum like this.  Much more effective to work through these with a properly trained therapist.

Okay

It's obvious to me that you take your marriage, your vows, you family all very seriously and want the best for them.  Yet there seems to be fear/resistance to therapy based on your belief of what you hubby will do.

Yet...that in an of itself appears to be a cognitive distortion.

Is this a distortion?  Or is it a disagreement on what would be best for me?  Again, asking.

Yes it is 100% true that your husband has behaved badly..very badly...in the past.  

That doesn't mean he will behave badly in the future

Is this true?

“The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour”, has been attributed to everyone from psychologists, such as Albert Ellis, Walter Michel, and B.F. Skinner (all respected psychologists). Psychologist Paul Meehl studied this in great detail.

And understanding that this may be an oversimplification, here are some additional criteria...

High-frequency, habitual behaviors are more predictive than infrequent behaviors. (Check)

Predictions work best over short time intervals. (SIL long time ago, working with Ts has been continual professionally)

The anticipated situation must be essentially the same as the past situation that activated the behavior. (doesn’t really apply)

The behavior must not have been extinguished by corrective or negative feedback. (50/50?)

The person must remain essentially unchanged.(60/40?)

The person must be fairly consistent in his or her behaviors. (Check)

Do you believe this is incorrect? Thoughts?

 

and if he does make some negative efforts you have the benefit of the tools you have learned and would have the additional benefit of a therapist to guide you.

Let me clarify. I know I’ve said I don’t want to do this in some form.  What I really mean is that I am willing to use the tools and work on it, but I believe the amount of time and energy that will be required is not something I am physically, mentally or emotionally equipped to handle.

And even if I could, I’m not sure I want to.

So if it appeared I was unwilling to try, despite actually trying a whole slew of things, with varying levels of success (yes some good), then I conveyed the incorrect premise.

I'm positive I haven't answered all your questions.   I think it wisest to come back to them later (I promise..hold me to it)

Please do one thing for me.  Don't focus on whether you agree or disagree with my points...please focus on if you understand them.

So, where I understand I may determine whether I agree or disagree, but many of my questions are simply trying to understand and not a challenge to agree or disagree.

Where my perception leads me elsewhere, asking how I get to your perception...and does that make sense to me. Then do I agree or disagree.  

What if the things you assumed were true, were not.

Best,

FF

What would they be?  How would I know they weren’t true?

Thanks for taking the time and being willing to see where I am coming from. It may be lala land, but I am looking for my GPS.

[formflier]

For the sake of this discussion, let's take the quote below as true and accurate.  I do think it's a bit of an oversimplification.

“The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour”, has been attributed to everyone from psychologists, such as Albert Ellis, Walter Michel, and B.F. Skinner (all respected psychologists). Psychologist Paul Meehl studied this in great detail.

For the sake of this discussion, would you agree to add "given the same or at least similar situation, past predicts future?

You and your husband are in a relationship.  Each of you has played a role for a long time.

So IF you continued to play your old roll I would agree with you that your hubby would most likely react the same.

Now..let's stay intellectually honest here and accept your premise.  Past behavior predicts future.

You now have a "past" with your hubby to see how you playing your new roll turns out. 

I'll accept that "strange" as a poor choice of words.  We can leave that out.

That leaves you with "he's being better" and you are "reaping benefits from your new role and behavior".

So..let's continue with intellectual consistency in evaluating things.

By your own admission you are reaping benefits and he is doing better.  We've accepted you are assertion that past predicts future.

Therefore should he become aware that you are seeing a T and you continue to use tools that we AND your new T advise you to use, is it reasonable to assume he would do worse or better than you fear he will do.

I'll handle other questions later.  Very important to not loose focus.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

For the sake of this discussion, let's take the quote below as true and accurate.  I do think it's a bit of an oversimplification.




For the sake of this discussion, would you agree to add "given the same or at least similar situation, past predicts future?

I can agree.

Please consider, however, that for the first say 20 years of the relationship I was not behaving the same as the past 10, when I became protective of his dysregulations.

Back in the day, when he’d have an “episode” (choosing easier representation, all encompassing behavior that exceeded, in my estimation “normal response” to whatever trigger, often unknown), these episodes were very occasional, not so intense and many times in response to some known event/comment/etc.  I would still say the reaction/response was BIGGER than made sense, but because occasional I willingly (and naively) wrote them off as one off episodes.

He was not spewing vile things at me or rage texting or continually asking to divorce during this time.

I am not going to say I wasn’t sometimes thoughtless or annoying or rude.  But these were exceptions to the rule. I conduct myself quite respectfully of others — my doctor of 25 years told me to call her by her first name because we’ve known each other so long and we’ve shared kid stories, etc. — and I still call her Dr because I was taught respect for what she has achieved (I do struggle with if that is disrespectful, too).

I was taught it was respectful to address someone by their name. If someone walks into the room, to say “Hello FF, how are you today?  What’s new?”  H hates when anyone says his name. I don’t have time to explore this, but I try to respect this.

My point is, I would like to suggest that in the beginning it was more typical, and I would say I behaved quite acceptably.  Not perfect, but within the realm of very acceptable. I’m not trying to sound full of myself in case that’s how it comes across. Just not doing anything warrant the forthcoming behaviors.

But, when things changed, I didn’t understand how to navigate. I very much picked doing things to avoid upsetting him. It wasn’t for his benefit per se, but mine. I do understand that this is somewhat illogical and a wholly terrible approach.

You and your husband are in a relationship.  Each of you has played a role for a long time.

True, but the roles have changed. It has not always been this way.

So IF you continued to play your old roll I would agree with you that your hubby would most likely react the same.

I played the better role for 20 years...he changed and I responded poorly.

But why did it change when nothing I did was different. So what guarantee is there that it will go back when I can’t explain why it changed in the first place.

I know there are no guarantees, just not sure this is one I want to risk.

Now..let's stay intellectually honest here and accept your premise.  Past behavior predicts future.

You now have a "past" with your hubby to see how you playing your new roll turns out.  

I'll accept that "strange" as a poor choice of words.  We can leave that out.

That leaves you with "he's being better" and you are "reaping benefits from your new role and behavior".

So..let's continue with intellectual consistency in evaluating things.

By your own admission you are reaping benefits and he is doing better.  We've accepted you are assertion that past predicts future.

Therefore should he become aware that you are seeing a T and you continue to use tools that we AND your new T advise you to use, is it reasonable to assume he would do worse or better than you fear he will do.

I'll handle other questions later.  Very important to not loose focus.

Best,

FF

I feel his very stated assertions about his feelings about a T have been entirely overlooked. I feel that this needs consideration, whether I like it or not.

Off to think it over.

[formflier]

Good to think it over.

Also good to be consistent in your thinking.  So..let's be consistent in your thinking.

If you are behaving differently and he is behaving better, therefore if he finds out you have/are seeing a T, he would respond better or worse than you fear?

Please focus on this question as asked.

Then focus on this one as asked.

If you go back to behaving in your old manner and your husband begins behaving worse, therefore if he finds out you have/are seeing a T, he would respond better or worse than you fear?

Accurately and consistently answering those questions will reveal a lot about who has power in the relationship.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I think it very wise to establish a secure base before you make a major life change, if you do. I wasn't questioning that.

What I was pointing out was that you seem to be harboring beliefs that are at cross-purposes.

You've stated something to the effect that you didn't want to put the energy into implementing a different way of responding to your husband. (OK. That's understandable.)

And the reason you stated for not wanting to do this was that it might not work to make the relationship as healthy as you desire. (You've known him for decades and have little hope for him to improve. Certainly that can be a reasonable conclusion.)

But in the meantime, you're still hurt by him calling you names like "hillbilly". (The tools are for us and they can help us to not feel emotionally damaged by our partner's words and behavior.)

On the one hand, you're debating the morality of throwing away a longterm marriage, but on the other, you're certain that he will never meet your needs for a healthy partner.

So in the meantime, while you ponder this, and indeed it's a momentous decision, you choose to stay in the relationship. Yet you say you don't want to actively work to make things better. And when his behavior is better, you are suspicious and at times, seem disappointed, because it undermines your choice to end the marriage at some point in the future.

You'd prefer that he made the decision to end the marriage, perhaps pursuing one of the girlfriends from his past. But you don't dare to either seek therapy or legal counsel for fear of enraging him and possibly causing him to do just that.

You're reluctant to do anything which might cause him to become angry. (I understand wanting to avoid conflict.) Yet if you wanted to participate in therapy with a trained professional, there are ways of doing that online, with as little risk as what you are doing here.

What many of us seem to be pointing out is that you are stuck emotionally and seem resistant to wanting to explore alternatives.




 

[UBPDHelp]

Good to think it over.

Also good to be consistent in your thinking.  So..let's be consistent in your thinking.

If you are behaving differently and he is behaving better, therefore if he finds out you have/are seeing a T, he would respond better or worse than you fear?

Please focus on this question as asked.

I believe he will respond poorly regardless.  I will agree that it may be more diminished than before. I will agree that in a few more months of improvement it could be even more diminished. But I believe he will always see it as some type of threat. It is possible it could eventually be perceived as a manageable/tolerable threat by him.

The obstacles for HIM re: Ts are:

His disdain for them — this could be fear that his PD will be “discovered” or he could believe they destroy families because he believes that’s what happened with his sister/mother and his only other exposure is during contentious divorces

Fear of abandonment — this is an educated guess based on learning here. I could provide reasons I believe support this but trying my darnedest to stay focused.

Then focus on this one as asked.

If you go back to behaving in your old manner and your husband begins behaving worse, therefore if he finds out you have/are seeing a T, he would respond better or worse than you fear?

Ha — I believe as badly as I fear, but I understand your point. Yes, in this scenario it will most likely, almost assuredly, be worse than the above scenario.

Accurately and consistently answering those questions will reveal a lot about who has power in the relationship.

Best,

FF

Having the power has never been the goal. I’ve never considered (or wanted) a relationship that was not on equal footing. That said, I guess maybe I have to accept in order to maintain a more even keel in a nonPD-PD relationship, it requires the nonPD to power the direction of the relationship. Sort of like overcorrecting to bring back to center.  But the force pushing you off course doesn’t abate and that’s the daunting part.

Thanks for some focus FF.

[formflier]

  I’ve never considered (or wanted) a relationship that was not on equal footing. 

That's obvious. 

I'm so sorry that your life's dream isn't going to happen.   

How do you do grief?  How can we support you in grief?  Please be kind to yourself as the life you actually have becomes more clear.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

 

Ha — I believe as badly as I fear, but I understand your point. 
[/quote]


Can you reflect back your understanding of my point?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I think it very wise to establish a secure base before you make a major life change, if you do. I wasn't questioning that.

What I was pointing out was that you seem to be harboring beliefs that are at cross-purposes.

You've stated something to the effect that you didn't want to put the energy into implementing a different way of responding to your husband. (OK. That's understandable.)

Clarification here.  

I am open AND have been working (and spent a LOT of time and energy) on tools and responding differently.

I am fearful that:

I will continue this and, when the next big stress comes (and it will), he will revert to his old ways despite all of my efforts. Next week, is easier to regroup. In five years, not as much.

This may be irrational on my part. I can’t gauge the validity of this fear.

I don’t know if having this fear, irrational or not, is “enough” to break up my children’s family. Of course, this is only one consideration. There are obviously many others.

And the reason you stated for not wanting to do this was that it might not work to make the relationship as healthy as you desire. (You've known him for decades and have little hope for him to improve. Certainly that can be a reasonable conclusion.)

Yes Cat, I have known him for decades. He was not this way for the majority of our relationship. He was not perfect, there were some times where things were blown up a bit out of proportion and even in strange ways. Looking back I can see some other behaviors that were off and statements that were off. But nothing reaching the threshold of the last five years and even more so the last year.   The rage texting started maybe about seven years ago and was maybe 2 or 3 texts a year. My list a few days ago showed days that there were 10 and over two months over 100.  That’s a significant uptick, right?

I’m suspecting losing big case may have been impetus...so linking here because even then the rage was out of the blue and not often or as vile so I don’t recall the exact timing. More just flashes of anger that seemed out of place or overblown.

Probably grew as stress of having two in college grew. Financial pressure, yes but also his fear he couldn’t protect them. So again more frequent to flip to anger during this time.

Last year has been indescribable. He’s left several times, rage texted, broken things and then also settles back to normal after breaking through. I don’t get there as fast and not entirely any more.

The above serves to confuse me. It makes me question whether my efforts will effect actual change. I don’t know how much effort to put in (willing to put in a lot) and when it’s time to pull the plug, or not. I do understand no guarantees but I’m looking for clues and exploring what I’m capable of.

I believe this is prudent. It may be confusing to others and I’m open to suggestions, but this is the space I live in right now.

But in the meantime, you're still hurt by him calling you names like "hillbilly". (The tools are for us and they can help us to not feel emotionally damaged by our partner's words and behavior.)

True, initially, I was hurt. It wasn’t so much the name, but that he would do it.

Now it doesn’t sting as much —it still catches me, but that may have more to do with the sharpness in his voice than to the actual name calling — thanks in large part to the tools and understanding what’s likely happening. Admittedly in some ways I just can’t wrap my head around treating someone this way.

And to your and FF and ‘ducks points, since I told him last month that it was in no way acceptable to call me or anyone names, he hasn’t done it. And to really get FF going...I just don’t think you should have to tell your husband not to call you hurtful names. Call me crazy.

On the one hand, you're debating the morality of throwing away a longterm marriage, but on the other, you're certain that he will never meet your needs for a healthy partner.

Good point. I will adjust slightly to say I’m almost certain. Emotionally/mentally I haven’t entirely resolved all the years that this wasn’t happening. Again, there were some strange responses but they were so few and far between that although yucky, were tolerable in the overall balance.

And I would kindly ask that you don’t read too much into my adjectives...sometimes I can’t find the right one, so it may land differently than intended. Happy to clarify any that seem out of place.

So in the meantime, while you ponder this, and indeed it's a momentous decision, you choose to stay in the relationship. Yet you say you don't want to actively work to make things better. And when his behavior is better, you are suspicious and at times, seem disappointed, because it undermines your choice to end the marriage at some point in the future.

This is not true. I have been making tremendous efforts to make things better. What I don’t know is where the effort is maxed (even simply by my willingness to go further) and whether operating at this level is sustainable and will create real change.

Well I’m not disappointed that his behavior is better. I believe it may cloud my decisions, however, and more so that I don’t know if I’ll know. Suspicious...maybe. But if anything suspicious that it is a temporary act, or that possibly it is.

You'd prefer that he made the decision to end the marriage, perhaps pursuing one of the girlfriends from his past. But you don't dare to either seek therapy or legal counsel for fear of enraging him and possibly causing him to do just that.

The desire to have him end it with a girlfriend was because I thought it might put his focus on the new relationship rather than putting his energy into destroying me.

I said:

It was foolishly and childishly hoping he would meet an old flame on Facebook or elsewhere and ride off into the sunset, taking his dysregulations with him.

I already admitted it was foolish and childish. What more do I need to do to discount this?

You're reluctant to do anything which might cause him to become angry. (I understand wanting to avoid conflict.) Yet if you wanted to participate in therapy with a trained professional, there are ways of doing that online, with as little risk as what you are doing here.

I didn’t always avoid conflict — when his responses were more measured.

It is true that I have horribly shouldered so much the last five years to avoid his out of control responses. It started as one off self preservation and became status quo.

I’m working out of this dynamic. I’ve worked on this with a ton of tools. We’ve had ongoing plumbing/heating issues. I’ve mentioned a couple. There have been more. They are frustrating because the service people can’t quite figure it out and yet have come out and we’ve spent a fair amount of money and it’s not fixed. We’re both annoyed. I take a step back and regroup. He just spirals. But I listen and then ask him what he wants to do. If he reels it in, I listen. If not, I excuse myself while he thinks about it.

I no longer care if he gets upset about bills or school or family or kids. Just life.

What many of us seem to be pointing out is that you are stuck emotionally and seem resistant to wanting to explore alternatives.

Stuck a bit, or maybe medium. Physically stuck for now.

I am not resistant to alternatives. I may or may not be willing to do them in the end, but open to consideration.

I am trying to balance.

And, doing T online, for now, is appealing. Tell me more...am I looking for someone here that does telemedicine or are their online services?  Anyone done this and have a recommendation?

I know you or someone mentioned this before...I totally forgot about it and geesh, idk if I’m mentally beat with new job or just plain thick, didn’t occur to me this would be a thing.

Thanks Cat.



  

[UBPDHelp]

 

Ha — I believe as badly as I fear, but I understand your point. 



Can you reflect back your understanding of my point?

Best,

FF

I believe you are illustrating the differing result (his reaction) when using tools in the relationship vs not using tools in the relationship.

I do understand and can see the difference. I’m still working on whether the balance of what I can put in tools resulting in improved behavior will be enough.

And I’m not even sure I’ll know when I know, if that makes sense.

Thanks FF.

[formflier]

And, doing T online, for now, is appealing. Tell me more...am I looking for someone here that does telemedicine or are their online services?  Anyone done this and have a recommendation?

All of my T has been virtual  since COVID.

Same provider but we use "doxy"  https://doxy.me/en/

I've also used "Zoom" to meet with other providers.

I would be surprised if you find many people doing in person therapy.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I believe you are illustrating the differing result (his reaction) when using tools in the relationship vs not using tools in the relationship.

Yes...but you are missing the larger point. 

You, not he has the power in the relationship.  Please don't get into a discussion about not wanting it, sustain it and all that.

This is a thing about "what is".  It's not a thing about "what you want".

Can we set aside debate/argument about this point for now.

For the sake of discussion,  what is the impact of you having the power in the relationship?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Yes...but you are missing the larger point.  

You, not he has the power in the relationship.  Please don't get into a discussion about not wanting it, sustain it and all that.

This is a thing about "what is".  It's not a thing about "what you want".

Can we set aside debate/argument about this point for now.

For the sake of discussion,  what is the impact of you having the power in the relationship?

Best,

FF

#tired

Yes, I have the POWER.

What is.  How many times have I told my kids that?

And how many times have I said it is so much easier to see what someone else should do, than it is to see what you should do for yourself?  (The answer is a lot!)

So I guess, if I have the power, and I’m the more emotionally healthy one, it is my job to lead the relationship to an acceptable dynamic by example.

(I’m stopping myself from whether it can be sustained...kind of).

Impact?  The chance to improve the relationship.

[UBPDHelp]

All of my T has been virtual  since COVID.

Same provider but we use "doxy"  https://doxy.me/en/

I've also used "Zoom" to meet with other providers.

I would be surprised if you find many people doing in person therapy.

Best,

FF

Okay, so a local T, doing virtual.

Can you all brightline what I should like for in a T to address these PD issues?

My middle two are in need/open to T, as well.  Should we all have different?  Just want to be mindful if this would matter when they’re ready (like if different needed, then assigning best per need).

Thank FF...and anyone else who can share experience and advice what to look for.

[formflier]

#tired

Yes, I have the POWER.

What is.  How many times have I told my kids that?

And how many times have I said it is so much easier to see what someone else should do, than it is to see what you should do for yourself?  (The answer is a lot!)

So I guess, if I have the power, and I’m the more emotionally healthy one, it is my job to lead the relationship to an acceptable dynamic by example.

(I’m stopping myself from whether it can be sustained...kind of).

Impact?  The chance to improve the relationship.

I don't disagree with any of what you have posted.    Yet, you know me.  I like to "boil things down".

You are responsible for the direction of the relationship  Direction equals "slowly getting healthier or slowly getting more unhealthy"

Does that feel fair?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Okay, so a local T, doing virtual.

Can you all brightline what I should like for in a T to address these PD issues?
 

I would not limit yourself to local, but I can certainly see that local would be preferable.

I would also not focus on what this T might or might not be able to do for others, stay at step 1.  Find a good fit for you.

I would suggest that you look for someone with experience.  This type of thing is probably not a good fit for someone that just graduated.  (for instance my T, I actually call her a P because she is PhD level psychologist is in her 60s and has a full career "behind her")

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

After moving to a new area, a psychologist friend did online counseling as her local practice was growing. One of her favorite clients was a young woman in India, whose family had chosen her a fiancé. She was a modern young woman, yet bound by family tradition, and unsure if she wanted to marry the man that had been chosen for her.

It turned out that once she got to know him, she felt that her family had made a wonderful choice for her. My friend counseled her through the engagement and marriage. She continued to send photos and updates about her life for years.

If you Google "online therapy" you can find licensed counselors or psychologists. My friend enjoyed her online experiences with clients and as time went on, her local practice grew, and she focused on seeing people in her office.

However, she told me that she thought online work was often more effective in that people had to focus their thoughts to be able to write clearly about their concerns and because of that, therapy could move faster.

You write so well, UPDHelp, and it seems you are quite clear on some of your objectives. Online written therapy would be an easy way to get assistance when you have the time and privacy to do it.

[I Am Redeemed]

All of my T has been virtual  since COVID.

Same provider but we use "doxy"  https://doxy.me/en/

I've also used "Zoom" to meet with other providers.

I would be surprised if you find many people doing in person therapy.

Best,

FF

I did Zoom meetings with my therapist while under the stay at home. We do meet in person now, socially distanced.

You can Google "teletherapy directory" and find a whole list of websites that provide therapist directories. Put in your city and state and there will be lists to choose from.

[babyducks]

Ultimately, I believe I have arrived that the BPD/NPD burdens my H struggles with are insurmountable for me to continue. I wish for him to have peace and even love for himself and what he can offer if he would be willing to get help. I don’t think he will.

okay.    I understand.    I don't think the points that people are pushing on are about your decision, more about how you implement your decision.   the pandemic is not going away any time soon.  not within two months.  probably not within 6 months.    the children are going to be involved for the rest of their lives.    regardless of which way you turn there is going to be conflict.   how you manage that conflict is what people are concerned about.

I have a lot of calls to look inward, to look at my shortcomings. I have no problem doing that and even relish the idea of greater understanding, which may lead to better relationships with kids, family, friends.

I would disagree.   I don't think anyone is suggesting to look at your shortcomings.   that is not at all how I read the messages in your threads.   it seems much more that people are suggesting you identify yourself as separate from your husband.    with both strengths and weakness that are not dependent on him or his actions. 

[babyducks]

I am flawed. Yep, flawed. But I’m not a raging NPD/BPD. Definitely have codependency and low self esteem...he created, I allowed.

I know this is a late reply,... my apologies.. things have been very hectic in my own life.   I did want to touch on this point.

cognitive distortions are not flaws.    they are not defects of character.    they are normal but not helpful ways of processing information.  we all have them.    we all do them.

defining yourself as a comparison to him or in conjunction to him is a distortion.    No you are not a raging NPD/BPD.   that is very true, it's also not helpful in defining what you are and are not.   black and white thinking is not about he is a bad person and I am a good person although it can encompass that.   it's more about all or nothing thinking.   dichotomous thinking.    dichotomous thinking generates stress.    "he created - I allowed"  is an example of black and white thinking.    My X is a response to his Y.    Truthfully it's way more complicated than that.   

 

I will take responsibility. I assure you I do not live in constant cognitive distortions. I live in reality. It is NOT normal to send someone over 100 rage text messages calling them a hillbilly slut and demanding answers to goodness knows what questions. It is not normal to drudge up a bf from 30+ years ago. It is not normal to break things. To expect someone to clean up ALL of you messes.

What is my distorted view there?

of course it isn't normal to send someone 100 rage texts and I don't believe anyone suggested it was.    of course it isn't normal to break things or verbally abuse.    what is distorted is measuring normalcy as either the opposite of what he does or says, someway connected to what he does or says...   referencing him as the measuring point from which decisions and judgements are made.

You don’t like that I say “should”. I challenge you to look at any expectations you have in your relationships. Maybe you don’t have any expectations?

../../..

There are many “shoulds” in relationships, don’t you think?

Should I expect my husband to treat me respectfully?
Should I expect not to get relentless vile texts from my husband?
Should I be able to live without worrying what will set him off next?

He did these things, not me.

again no one is denying he did these things or suggesting they aren't very hurtful.   

what I see as the distortion here is the fallacy of fairness.    he should know to pick up his trash.   he shouldn't send vile texts.    he should treat you and all people respectfully.   and while that may be true it is not an accurate representation of what you are actually living with.    it's not a helpful way of processing information.    He should know better.   Perhaps.  but for at least a dozen reasons that have been well articulated here, and I won't repeat, he doesn't.

the distortion is clinging to 'he should know better' prevents and a deep reflection on current reality.   it keeps thinking stuck in one pattern.   it prevents troubleshooting or problem solving.

I treat him with respect. I have not sent one mean, nasty text to him ever. I begin each day as a blessing and no one worries I’m going to fly off the handle for any reason, let alone no reason.

defining/describing yourself as a comparison to him, or in differentiation from  him limits your potential.   I suggest you become aware of when you do it, and work to limit it.

respectfully
'ducks