Weaponized Boundaries: Has this happened to anyone else?

[siobhan823]

It's difficult to know exactly where to start with this. My fundamental questions is, has anyone else's BPDSO used self-care methods against you?

My estranged BPDh is on a path to heal from his trauma. He admitted to having BPD once but has since gone back on it. It was my therapist that 'diagnosed' him as BPD/NPD, but only after having met him for one session. Long story, but last fall I ended the relationship and filed for divorce. He basically seemed to hit rock bottom, and as a result spend a lot of time on himself learning not to be a people pleaser and to do what he needed to get his life back on track. It was the third or fourth time he had been homeless, though it was more by choice than I think he will admit. He bounced around from friends homes and relatives homes and finally rented an apartment in March and got his son back. I was really happy for him and proud of him, and for a while I thought my therapist had made a mistake and we reconciled until he recently ghosted me about a month ago.

At first it was as though we were working together, sharing different things we were learning about overcoming cPTSD and past traumas and learning to shed toxic people and situations in our lives. Drawing boundaries with exes and 'fighting the good fight' as it were. He was cognizant of his behaviors and thought patterns and was taking responsibility for his suspicions and distrust and misperceptions. And then, on a dime, it all changed. It was like he regressed? But all the things he had been working on and learning, it was like he turned them on me.

I had been working so hard on being patient and validating him while holding my own boundaries... the last time we talked and ultimately fought, he told me he doesn't want this toxic, unstable relationship, which was a bit of a mind bender because, as far as I can tell, he is creating this situation (as he has always done for the last 8 years, and even admits it and apologizes when he does, even if it takes him a few days to get there after a blow up.) He came back briefly as if nothing happened, but then ghosted.

For the first four years of our marriage basically I believed him that the problem was all me. He told me he thought I was bi-polar, so I sought diagnosis and treatment. I was told I wasn't, but that I did have major depression and PTSD/cPTSD. He accepted that. But I went to various therapists seeking help and trying to do what was right by him and the kids. We had been separated and were doing well and then when we moved back in together the cycle started again. After all I had learned I recognized that it was not me starting this cycle. This was well before I knew much about BPD, back in 2015. I texted my therapist in that moment and said "this is not me." She texted back and said "that sounds like clarity." And I think it was.

As the years have played out I have worked to understand my part and his, and as he never accepted responsibility or sought treatment (or at least not for very long before he started blaming me for everything again,) I decided to end things which was when I filed for divorce last year. But then, after months of what I thought was him actually and finally doing the work, I was happy to reconcile this last March. Elated even. And like I said, it was going well. Until about a month ago.

Have any of you experienced this? Having these kinds of self-care and recovery techniques/actions/strategies weaponized against you?

I am devastated and questioning myself, and hoping to get back to the place of clarity I had 5 years ago. I know it takes two to tango, I know I have responsibility in the dance we dance, and I don't think this last one was me. I don't think I'm the one who created the situation, even if I didn't handle it as well as I could have this last time around.

My self esteem is in the toilet, and I don't know if I'll ever be the same again. I feel like I can't remember who I am, or anything good about me anymore. I'm 46 and can't seem to see what is left to look forward to. I sense that these are errors in thinking, but I can't seem to break through them. I thought I was stronger than this.

Please help me see through the fog, if you can.

Much appreciated,

S

[FindingMe2011]

My fundamental questions is, has anyone else's BPDSO used self-care methods against you?

The illness will use any weakness you may have, against you. Not sure what you mean by self care methods, but their tongues are fairly sharp, because it works. A dysfunctional way of controlling.

My estranged BPDh is on a path to heal from his trauma.

Im wondering what this might entail? If youre not living with him, do you really know what he is doing?

Long story, but last fall I ended the relationship and filed for divorce.

Sounds like an appropriate decision. So are you divorced currently?

At first it was as though we were working together, sharing different things we were learning about overcoming cPTSD and past traumas and learning to shed toxic people and situations in our lives. Drawing boundaries with exes and 'fighting the good fight' as it were. He was cognizant of his behaviors and thought patterns and was taking responsibility for his suspicions and distrust and misperceptions.

This was your perception and BPD mirrors you. I would have to believe this intimacy pushed his abandonment fears. Almost sounds as if you were trying to teach him, what you are learning. He needs to learn them on his own, and for himself. Just as you do.

And then, on a dime, it all changed. It was like he regressed? But all the things he had been working on and learning, it was like he turned them on me.

Of course he did, its what the illness dictates. The therapist will always be turned into the persecutor at some point. I have to ask does he seek out other women? Just because you have had light bulb moments, doesnt mean he will, his actions obviously show this.

For the first four years of our marriage basically I believed him that the problem was all me. He told me he thought I was bi-polar, so I sought diagnosis and treatment.

4 Years of projection, gas-lighting, triangulation, and a few others will make all involved appear crazy. If youre sleeping with dogs expect fleas. Possibly your personal guilt and shame, and abandonment fears allowed you to justify this, for 4 years.

As the years have played out I have worked to understand my part and his, and as he never accepted responsibility or sought treatment

So you have diagnosed him, and the relationship, have you gotten to yourself? Why you were so willing to dance in a dysfunctional r/s ? Earlier you stated he is on a path to healing his trauma.

This was well before I knew much about BPD, back in 2015. I texted my therapist in that moment and said "this is not me." She texted back and said "that sounds like clarity." And I think it was

Had you, have walked away then, i would agree. this was not you. Yet you stayed not listening to wise mind and allowed fantasy mind to dictate it appears.

My self esteem is in the toilet, and I don't know if I'll ever be the same again. I feel like I can't remember who I am, or anything good about me anymore. I'm 46 and can't seem to see what is left to look forward to. I sense that these are errors in thinking, but I can't seem to break through them. I thought I was stronger than this.

Please help me see through the fog, if you can.

Thats exactly what it is FOG...Fear Obligation and Guilt that you appear to be carrying, that a PD was able to expose. Keep working, learning and understanding. I just turned 54, did a 12 year stint with BPD, it does get better. I wish you well, Peace

[siobhan823]

My estranged BPDh is on a path to heal from his trauma.

Im wondering what this might entail? If youre not living with him, do you really know what he is doing?

For better or for worse, he doesn't seek outside help. He says he only trusts his own brain. He says therapy can be too vulnerable. I only know what I have observed and what he has shared with me, and yes I have observed him practicing some of what he has shared that he is doing. He is above average intelligence (IQ) and more or less auto-didactic. He taught himself graphic and website design, for example. Naturally, with mental health he can't avoid his blindspots. But, from his perspective as he has shared it with me, he is constantly seeking improvement. I believe he genuinely tries to be self-aware and change, but it is thwarted by his unwillingness to get outside help and the thinking problems of BPD. He seems to make great progress when he practices mindfulness. His improvements always seem to have a shelf life, though. I'm not certain people can only find healing in traditional therapy and so I don't feel it's my place to judge his chosen path. Obviously, all I can do is decide whether or not it works for me. I wanted to give it one last try.

Long story, but last fall I ended the relationship and filed for divorce.

Sounds like an appropriate decision. So are you divorced currently?

No. I was unable to find him to serve him and then the pandemic hit and the courts were closed. During the pandemic we briefly reconciled, and after 9 months they dismissed the case. I have to refile. I'm gathering the courage to do so, knowing the fight I will likely have to deal with from him. I'm still accepting the reality of the need for it again, too. I'm not ready to refile.  

At first it was as though we were working together, sharing different things we were learning about overcoming cPTSD and past traumas and learning to shed toxic people and situations in our lives. Drawing boundaries with exes and 'fighting the good fight' as it were. He was cognizant of his behaviors and thought patterns and was taking responsibility for his suspicions and distrust and misperceptions.

This was your perception and BPD mirrors you. I would have to believe this intimacy pushed his abandonment fears. Almost sounds as if you were trying to teach him, what you are learning. He needs to learn them on his own, and for himself. Just as you do.

Okay. Unless it was unconscious, I was careful not to be a teacher, making concerted efforts to avoid co-dependent behaviors. He was doing these things on his own while we were apart. It was more like comparing notes and sharing what we were learning like a support group, knowing we each needed to heal in order to be healthier together. But yes, I agree I have to learn things things on my own, for myself.

And then, on a dime, it all changed. It was like he regressed? But all the things he had been working on and learning, it was like he turned them on me.

Of course he did, its what the illness dictates. The therapist will always be turned into the persecutor at some point. I have to ask does he seek out other women? Just because you have had light bulb moments, doesnt mean he will, his actions obviously show this.

If he has sought out other women I have had no indication. When we were separated I dated a couple of people. He didn't. He said he was on the 'comeup' and wasn't going to do anything to throw him off track. What he does do is smear me to his friends, family, his kids, and even my kids. And yeah... every time I am certain he has had a lightbulb moment, Mr. Hyde comes back around.

For the first four years of our marriage basically I believed him that the problem was all me. He told me he thought I was bi-polar, so I sought diagnosis and treatment.

4 Years of projection, gas-lighting, triangulation, and a few others will make all involved appear crazy. If youre sleeping with dogs expect fleas. Possibly your personal guilt and shame, and abandonment fears allowed you to justify this, for 4 years.

When I read your response to this, I burst into tears. It was absolutely my personal guilt, shame, and abandonment fears allowed me to justify this. If it was my fault then I could fix it, I wouldn't be twice divorced, I could fix the hell I had brought my children into, I could reverse all of the horrible things we were all experiencing. How could I have been so careless with their lives and mine? How could I have made such a mistake? How could I have been so wrong? How could I have allowed this to happen to my children? How do I escape? How do I go back? How do I undo the horribleness of it all? I became someone I didn't recognize and I hated myself for it. I still don't know what to do with that reality. I still don't fully understand what happened to me. I've lost friends. I've become isolated. I don't recognize my life anymore and I feel incredibly lost wherever I am. I want 'me' back.

As the years have played out I have worked to understand my part and his, and as he never accepted responsibility or sought treatment

So you have diagnosed him, and the relationship, have you gotten to yourself? Why you were so willing to dance in a dysfunctional r/s ? Earlier you stated he is on a path to healing his trauma.

I have done my best to understand what is happening, what is my fault, what is his, where mental illness fits in, etc., yes. It was my therapist that diagnosed him as BPD. I know that taking responsibility for myself is all I can do. Taking responsibility for him or his mental illness is an exercise in futility, but I have a tendency to try. As my therapist reminds me, "I'm not that powerful." I agree that the whole point is to get to myself and heal the parts of me that drew me to this relationship in the first place (and my previous marriage to a narcissistic gay man.) Right now I am doubting myself because he is telling me again that I am the problem and I'm having a hard time seeing through the confusion. If it's gaslighting, it's working.

This was well before I knew much about BPD, back in 2015. I texted my therapist in that moment and said "this is not me." She texted back and said "that sounds like clarity." And I think it was

Had you, have walked away then, i would agree. this was not you. Yet you stayed not listening to wise mind and allowed fantasy mind to dictate it appears.

I tried to get out many times. I had a shelter set up in another state and my first exhusband refused to let me leave the state and I wouldn't leave my children. The shelters in my state wouldn't let me bring my children, which is why I was leaving the state to a shelter that would. I had no money or ability to provide for myself at the time. It took me two more years to convince my parents to help me get out. During that time I was not functioning very highly and just getting through day to day. This is not a sob story, it's just what happened. When my parents finally agreed to help me, I left. BPDh and I had a therapist that said he would help us heal while we lived apart so we could come back together without the abuse cycle. BPDh then lost the house we had been living in, and with the other chaos of his life, couple's therapy never happened. I tried to help him a couple of times to get back on his feet, but I just got sucked back into the drama. That's when I drew a hard line last fall and filed a protection order and got him out of the house. I went back to him this last March. I was worried about him and my stepchildren when news of the pandemic hit. I still love him and realized I still wanted to fix our marriage and get my family back. I believed him that he was trying to heal and I had faith for the first time in 8 years that we would be okay. Now I know that is not the case, and I am trying to learn and detach and accept that there is no hope, which is why I am here.

Thats exactly what it is FOG...Fear Obligation and Guilt that you appear to be carrying, that a PD was able to expose. Keep working, learning and understanding. I just turned 54, did a 12 year stint with BPD, it does get better. I wish you well, Peace

Thank you. I appreciate your response.

[l8kgrl]

Siobhan, I'm sorry for what you're going through right now. I wanted to respond first to what you said last. Things can and will get better. I'm 46 too, divorced with kids (from previous husband, the person with uPD was a bf). I know that headspace of being depressed, feeling like it's always going to be awful, etc. This is your brain fooling you. You are going through something incredibly hard right now. You don't need to (and shouldn't) try to force yourself to feel better, but you DO need to remind yourself often that this is temporary, that eventually, it WILL be better. You will not always feel the pain you're feeling right now. Life still has many wonderful things in store and you deserve them.

I also found your original question interesting. It's possible your ex really was trying to get better, and for whatever reason had a "relapse" as you called it, or just hit a wall and felt too vulnerable or whatever, and so regressed.

It's also possible that all/a lot of what he was saying and doing was, like RollerDerby said, mirroring. This isn't exactly the same as what my ex-bf did but I think I can somewhat relate. He was very into spirituality, had gone to a therapist for quite awhile (never diagnosed with a PD to my knowledge so who knows what really went on there), had read all kinds of stuff about narcissism (bc supposedly his ex is a crazy NPD). I can see now in retrospect that a lot of the therapy and spirituality language he used was part of his manipulation. For example, if I said something that upset him, maybe he'd get very emotional and talk about how gaslit he was by his ex-w and so he just needs support. Basically gaslighting me by talking about how he was gaslit. Pretty messed up - I feel like it's another level of psychological manipulativeness.

I don't know if this is what happened in your case or not. I do know that it's very difficult for someone with a PD to get well even with intensive therapy. Doing it on your own seems virtually impossible.

I recently read the book Why Does He Do That about abuse and it was VERY interesting. One of the things the author (who is one of the top experts on abusive relationships and has worked with thousands of abusers) said is that with people who are abusive, therapy can actually make them worse. Their problem is having dysfunctional beliefs and attitudes, not needing to get in touch with their feelings. Part of their problem is that they already believe their feelings are more important than others. I think the way he put it is that abusers focus on their feelings and other people's behaviors, but they don't care about other people's feelings or their own behaviors. This is different from BPD I think but some of it may still fit. Sorry, it's late and I'm not sure if this is making sense, but I guess the basic thing I'm trying to say is that therapy, or self-therapy, is not necessarily the answer and may even make things worse depending on what his issues are.

Again, I'm sorry you are going through this. As much as you can, use this time to focus on you - on what you need, what you're feeling, what you can do to take care of yourself one day at a time.

 

[siobhan823]

Siobhan, I'm sorry for what you're going through right now. I wanted to respond first to what you said last. Things can and will get better. I'm 46 too, divorced with kids (from previous husband, the person with uPD was a bf). I know that headspace of being depressed, feeling like it's always going to be awful, etc. This is your brain fooling you. You are going through something incredibly hard right now. You don't need to (and shouldn't) try to force yourself to feel better, but you DO need to remind yourself often that this is temporary, that eventually, it WILL be better. You will not always feel the pain you're feeling right now. Life still has many wonderful things in store and you deserve them.

Yes. Okay. Thank you, a million times.

I also found your original question interesting. It's possible your ex really was trying to get better, and for whatever reason had a "relapse" as you called it, or just hit a wall and felt too vulnerable or whatever, and so regressed.

It's also possible that all/a lot of what he was saying and doing was, like RollerDerby said, mirroring. This isn't exactly the same as what my ex-bf did but I think I can somewhat relate. He was very into spirituality, had gone to a therapist for quite awhile (never diagnosed with a PD to my knowledge so who knows what really went on there), had read all kinds of stuff about narcissism (bc supposedly his ex is a crazy NPD). I can see now in retrospect that a lot of the therapy and spirituality language he used was part of his manipulation. For example, if I said something that upset him, maybe he'd get very emotional and talk about how gaslit he was by his ex-w and so he just needs support. Basically gaslighting me by talking about how he was gaslit. Pretty messed up - I feel like it's another level of psychological manipulativeness.

Honestly, l8kgrl, I think it might be both. I think it just depends on where he is at, whether he is stressed or feeling safe. But both of these insights land for me... I actually think he does both. I hadn't considered that. And I have heard it's common for pwBPD to couple with NPD's, which makes it even more confusing. BPDh is like a puppet to his exes, easily taken advantage of and even abused, both of whom seem to be quite narcissistic. But to me he is often a bully.

I recently read the book Why Does He Do That about abuse and it was VERY interesting. One of the things the author (who is one of the top experts on abusive relationships and has worked with thousands of abusers) said is that with people who are abusive, therapy can actually make them worse. Their problem is having dysfunctional beliefs and attitudes, not needing to get in touch with their feelings. Part of their problem is that they already believe their feelings are more important than others. I think the way he put it is that abusers focus on their feelings and other people's behaviors, but they don't care about other people's feelings or their own behaviors. This is different from BPD I think but some of it may still fit. Sorry, it's late and I'm not sure if this is making sense, but I guess the basic thing I'm trying to say is that therapy, or self-therapy, is not necessarily the answer and may even make things worse depending on what his issues are.

Again, I'm sorry you are going through this. As much as you can, use this time to focus on you - on what you need, what you're feeling, what you can do to take care of yourself one day at a time.

 

This is it, right here. I have avoided reading this book. I have been in denial and making excuses for him. I have not wanted this to be true, and when I finally had the courage to hold him accountable, I just wanted to take it back, and so I did. I wasn't ready. I powered through and got the protection order and did what everyone expected of me, but I wasn't ready.

Oh my gosh and this: "Part of their problem is that they already believe their feelings are more important than others. . .abusers focus on their feelings and other people's behaviors, but they don't care about other people's feelings or their own behaviors."

This is him, this is how he behaves, and frankly, his kids do this, too. Everything always centered on how he and they were feeling, and I was wrong for anything I did to object. Their blame was always focused on misinterpretations or inventions of my behaviors. He villified me for anything and everything, complained about me to his and my children, and they all followed suit. It's all they knew. Thankfully, mine have come back around to me. But in many ways my children and I have struggled with this dynamic, we just didn't have words to articulate what was happening until now. But my gut was right. I wasn't being unreasonable. It's like for them there is a hierarchy of priorities, and his feelings were at the top to the exclusion of all else, and were maintained by a litany of toxic blame coming at me so fast I couldn't think straight, and then it broke me down and I just believed them. I couldn't figure out how they were wrong, so I just accepted what they told me.

He's abusive. He always has been. Even in the good times he was smearing me behind my back. And you're right, he can't figure out what he needs to on his own. Who could?The fact that he wants to do it on his own seems more of a symptom of entitlement to me now than a path to actual healing. Much to think about, when the time is right. For now I hear you. My focus needs to be on me.

Thank you. This was incredibly helpful. I'm so grateful.

[FindingMe2011]

For better or for worse, he doesn't seek outside help.

There is no "better", I can assure you. So at some point you really do need to make the executive decision on what to do with this r/s. Im presuming hes getting what you seem to see as "inside help". This is what a P/D NEEDS for the illness to flourish. So in the guise of "helping", it appears you are enabling. Sometime the kind and forgiving thing to do, doesnt actually feel this way. You would get a better understanding of this when/if you decide to end the roller coaster ride, you would get a better understanding of what kept you in this toxic r/s.

And yeah... every time I am certain he has had a lightbulb moment, Mr. Hyde comes back around.

In this setting the illness has zero chance of light bulb moments. They are your moments, mimicked back to you. if it were true, Mr. Hyde wouldnt appear, no?

He says therapy can be too vulnerable.

Unfortunately this is what it takes to become mentally healthier. By his own admittance he is not capable. It was a blessing to me in the end, that I was able and hopefully you are too.

He is above average intelligence (IQ) and more or less auto-didactic. He taught himself graphic and website design, for example.

Appears to be more on the NPD side, but more than one session would be needed and Im wondering why a therapist would go out on a limb, unless they were trying to validate you. Saying he has traits of, would make more sense. In the end this has no bearing on you, it would only help him, if he decides to seek help. The behavior you endured, is more important than a label and only keeps you, from focusing on you.

I believe he genuinely tries to be self-aware and change,

Learning and understanding (for better or worse) will allow you to change your beliefs. Acceptance of these beliefs will bring more peace. Maybe the words he SPEAKS say this. The actions dont seem to match.

I'm not certain people can only find healing in traditional therapy and so I don't feel it's my place to judge his chosen path.

And you can only help you, and the same holds true for himself. Its my understanding the BPD therapist, attempt to create a transference in the BPD mind, from their punitive parent back to the therapist. Then try to install a healthier mindset. Knowing that most get into therapy discovering themselves, they may get caught up in the games, and many will not even attempt this feat. So what comes out in the end, is anyones guess, as is the duration it will take, if ever. I also believe its not good to judge other, we all are trying our best. For me, i was willing to pave the road to hell, which was her path, not mine.

I'm gathering the courage to do so, knowing the fight I will likely have to deal with from him.

Keep conversing on here, it will help...People only have the power you ALLOW them to have over you...In any conflict i have with another, when i solve my 50%, guess what? There is no conflict. The other may have one, but I know its between their ears, and this is their responsibility, not mine. It takes time, and stuff comes out sideways along the way. I can only apologize for my behavior and not because someone else doesnt like it. I dont. Sometimes people try to be perfect, in an imperfect world. Its like trying to fit a round peg, in a square hole. The perfect puzzle, the one that cant be solved.

I wanted to give it one last try.

This would imply you are done. Do you have a plan, a road map ? This will be important. Shooting from the hip will get you more of the same.

When I read your response to this, I burst into tears. It was absolutely my personal guilt, shame, and abandonment fears allowed me to justify this

It was my experience and learning, this was my body (subconscious) conversing with my mind (conscious)...The body is noble for protecting the mind and it served a purpose as my mind was developing. It played out as self defeating experiences as an adult. My track record proved this to me. This really is where the healing was, but we all have our path, and many never get there. But there is always tomorrow and i will find a way to keep growing. Its now my path and its much more peaceful. Do you have a T ? How long have you been in therapy?...If you feel stuck, you are stuck. Time to do something different. Confide in those who have nothing to gain or lose from your decision. reach out ask, you are not alone.

If it was my fault then I could fix it, I wouldn't be twice divorced, I could fix the hell I had brought my children into, I could reverse all of the horrible things we were all experiencing. How could I have been so careless with their lives and mine? How could I have made such a mistake? How could I have been so wrong? How could I have allowed this to happen to my children? How do I escape? How do I go back? How do I undo the horribleness of it all? I became someone I didn't recognize and I hated myself for it. I still don't know what to do with that reality. I still don't fully understand what happened to me. I've lost friends. I've become isolated. I don't recognize my life anymore and I feel incredibly lost wherever I am. I want 'me' back.


I think i wrote these same EXACT words...You, just as I did, DID MY VERY BEST WITH THE TOOLS I HAD. You really have a way of turning all the blame on yourself, when at the very least, had others help you get here...You need to learn how to be kind and forgiving to YOURSELF,( somebody was incapable of teaching this to you) before you can truly be this for others, I believe the same could be said of LOVE. ...if you continue the path you appear to be on, you will be just fine and develop a base that others wont be able to rock so easily, as for my children, i explain my shortcomings and ask questions about observations i make ( they are now 20,22) We are all growing and its rewarding to watch. I wish you well, Peace

[FindingMe2011]

I've become isolated. I don't recognize my life anymore and I feel incredibly lost wherever I am. I want 'me' back.

You being on this site looking for answers, should prove to you that hope exist. Another method that was helpful to me...The next time you come across the mirror, look yourself in the eyes and see this piece of you that brought you here and say something to this nature...Im a good person, the good the bad and the ugly, and have always done my best. I want to be loved for being and not doing, this is all I can ask of myself and others. To learn and collect tools along the way, to become a better me. I should ask no more of myself and others. Im not so sure how Im going to get through this mess, but I will persevere. I love me...and this time they should be tears of joy. I wish you well, Peace

[siobhan823]

For better or for worse, he doesn't seek outside help.

There is no "better", I can assure you. So at some point you really do need to make the executive decision on what to do with this r/s. Im presuming hes getting what you seem to see as "inside help". This is what a P/D NEEDS for the illness to flourish. So in the guise of "helping", it appears you are enabling. Sometime the kind and forgiving thing to do, doesnt actually feel this way. You would get a better understanding of this when/if you decide to end the roller coaster ride, you would get a better understanding of what kept you in this toxic r/s.

Well, as far as I can tell, he has discarded me. I'm not sure there is a decision to make other than doing the work of letting go and dealing with the rejection. The last time we spoke as if we were together was three or four weeks ago, then he ghosted. He's never done that before, but I don't see him coming back. He is more emboldened now and was more abusive than before. The only difference this time was that he was recognizing it and apologizing and making steps to change. That seems to have ended. We were going to get a therapist when jobs and money kicked in, but we didn't make it that far. If that's enabling, then I can see your point. I was feeling a lot of guilt this time around for filing the protection order and kicking him out last year and letting him get a away with a lot because of it. I hadn't planned on continuing without his changes or a couples therapist, and now it seems the point is moot. Still, it is helpful to examine my actions and motives. I don't want him back if he were to come back, but I'm not sure I'm strong enough to tell him no. I thought I was solid about it yesterday. I felt I had turned a corner... but today is a different story. I'm not proud. That's just the truth.

And yeah... every time I am certain he has had a lightbulb moment, Mr. Hyde comes back around.

In this setting the illness has zero chance of light bulb moments. They are your moments, mimicked back to you. if it were true, Mr. Hyde wouldnt appear, no?

I don't know if I fully agree since he had many of them without me over the past months. I think they were real. I just don't think he can maintain them, or doesn't really want to, or who knows. When he was doing nothing but meditation, mindfulness, exercise and spending his time alone he was doing great. When the kids came back and his job started, he switched personalities again. He says this is who he is and he isn't going to try to be anything for anyone else anymore... but he is different than just a few months ago and he wasn't trying to be anything for anyone then either... or at least not that I know of. But as you say, I can't bother myself about it. I need to focus on me.  

He says therapy can be too vulnerable.

Unfortunately this is what it takes to become mentally healthier. By his own admittance he is not capable. It was a blessing to me in the end, that I was able and hopefully you are too.

I agree, yes of course. I've been to therapy often. I don't mind the vulnerability. It's better than being stuck. He always thinks he can do everything on his own. He was convinced at one point he could re-invent his son's retainer that he had lost. To his credit he has created and invented some cool things, but he often overestimates his capabilities. I know it's partly because he doesn't trust anyone but himself, but I think it's also his narcissism. And until he does I'm sure he's doomed to fail. I'm just not sure he cares as much about changing as he does about doing it on his own. But not my problem, right?

These past years it seems any therapy I've done has only been to keep my head above water. Maybe with him gone I can make some traction again, finally.

He is above average intelligence (IQ) and more or less auto-didactic. He taught himself graphic and website design, for example.

Appears to be more on the NPD side, but more than one session would be needed and Im wondering why a therapist would go out on a limb, unless they were trying to validate you. Saying he has traits of, would make more sense. In the end this has no bearing on you, it would only help him, if he decides to seek help. The behavior you endured, is more important than a label and only keeps you, from focusing on you.

I have no idea why she went out on a limb... looking back I think it was irresponsible though I did appreciate the validation, I would have preferred she had been more careful. It frightened me and influenced a lot of my decisions and conversations with others, including my workplace when I got the protection order and frankly I feel I made quite a fool out of myself and have been backtracking since. Realizing she couldn't have made a proper diagnosis in such a way also led me back to him and trying to repair what I damaged as far as his reputation goes, only to find myself back to realizing it is BPD, or as you say, traits, at least. The roller coaster is not so much fun. Indeed it did also keep me from focusing on me, and if I had done I imagine the situation would have simply played out as needed. The more I care for me, the less dysfunction I will keep or seek, or so I'm told. What's done is done. At least it has led me here.

I believe he genuinely tries to be self-aware and change,

Learning and understanding (for better or worse) will allow you to change your beliefs. Acceptance of these beliefs will bring more peace. Maybe the words he SPEAKS say this. The actions dont seem to match.

True, or at least not permanently. He has never made one lasting change in spite of all of his so-called learnings and declarations. Fair point. And the minute he find validation for his old ways of being, he jumps on that and is emboldened to retrench in them.

I'm not certain people can only find healing in traditional therapy and so I don't feel it's my place to judge his chosen path.

And you can only help you, and the same holds true for himself. Its my understanding the BPD therapist, attempt to create a transference in the BPD mind, from their punitive parent back to the therapist. Then try to install a healthier mindset. Knowing that most get into therapy discovering themselves, they may get caught up in the games, and many will not even attempt this feat. So what comes out in the end, is anyones guess, as is the duration it will take, if ever. I also believe its not good to judge other, we all are trying our best. For me, i was willing to pave the road to hell, which was her path, not mine.

What do you mean you were willing to pave the road to hell?

I'm gathering the courage to do so, knowing the fight I will likely have to deal with from him.

Keep conversing on here, it will help...People only have the power you ALLOW them to have over you...In any conflict i have with another, when i solve my 50%, guess what? There is no conflict. The other may have one, but I know its between their ears, and this is their responsibility, not mine. It takes time, and stuff comes out sideways along the way. I can only apologize for my behavior and not because someone else doesnt like it. I dont. Sometimes people try to be perfect, in an imperfect world. Its like trying to fit a round peg, in a square hole. The perfect puzzle, the one that cant be solved.

It is helping to talk here. Thank you for taking the time. And I know people say this all the time, that they only have power I allow them to have, and I wish I understood why it annoyed me, haha. I don't want him to have any power. I have to magically stop caring that he has ghosted me, is ignoring me, has many of my belongings I may never get back, that I must pay a second filing fee to divorce him and go through that headache still... etc.

Gimme the magic pill to not caring about any of it. I'll gladly take it.

I wanted to give it one last try.

This would imply you are done. Do you have a plan, a road map ? This will be important. Shooting from the hip will get you more of the same.

Excellent point, RD, I have a therapist and we are working on a plan for me and also my life. Starting a career this late in the game and doing it on my own. I suppose I will be adding this situation to the mix. But you are right. Shooting from the hip has gotten me nothing but the same. No wonder I didn't feel like anything was getting better with him gone.

When I read your response to this, I burst into tears. It was absolutely my personal guilt, shame, and abandonment fears allowed me to justify this

It was my experience and learning, this was my body (subconscious) conversing with my mind (conscious)...The body is noble for protecting the mind and it served a purpose as my mind was developing. It played out as self defeating experiences as an adult. My track record proved this to me. This really is where the healing was, but we all have our path, and many never get there. But there is always tomorrow and i will find a way to keep growing. Its now my path and its much more peaceful. Do you have a T ? How long have you been in therapy?...If you feel stuck, you are stuck. Time to do something different. Confide in those who have nothing to gain or lose from your decision. reach out ask, you are not alone.

I have a new therapist... I was looking for something else when I chose her and I will have to see if she is a good fit for everything now. I've had many in the past as well. It takes as long as it takes, I guess. You are more hopeful than me, I think, but I haven't given up.

If it was my fault then I could fix it, I wouldn't be twice divorced, I could fix the hell I had brought my children into, I could reverse all of the horrible things we were all experiencing. How could I have been so careless with their lives and mine? How could I have made such a mistake? How could I have been so wrong? How could I have allowed this to happen to my children? How do I escape? How do I go back? How do I undo the horribleness of it all? I became someone I didn't recognize and I hated myself for it. I still don't know what to do with that reality. I still don't fully understand what happened to me.


I think i wrote these same EXACT words...You, just as I did, DID MY VERY BEST WITH THE TOOLS I HAD. You really have a way of turning all the blame on yourself, when at the very least, had others help you get here...You need to learn how to be kind and forgiving to YOURSELF,( somebody was incapable of teaching this to you) before you can truly be this for others, I believe the same could be said of LOVE. ...if you continue the path you appear to be on, you will be just fine and develop a base that others wont be able to rock so easily, as for my children, i explain my shortcomings and ask questions about observations i make ( they are now 20,22) We are all growing and its rewarding to watch.

I've become isolated. I don't recognize my life anymore and I feel incredibly lost wherever I am. I want 'me' back.

You being on this site looking for answers, should prove to you that hope exist. Another method that was helpful to me...The next time you come across the mirror, look yourself in the eyes and see this piece of you that brought you here and say something to this nature...Im a good person, the good the bad and the ugly, and have always done my best. I want to be loved for being and not doing, this is all I can ask of myself and others. To learn and collect tools along the way, to become a better me. I should ask no more of myself and others. Im not so sure how Im going to get through this mess, but I will persevere. I love me...and this time they should be tears of joy. I wish you well, Peace

It's amazing to me how similar our experiences can be. I am fortunate to learn from your experience. Thank you, RD. Sincerely.  I am very grateful.

[FindingMe2011]

What do you mean you were willing to pave the road to hell?

Well, it appears to me, my Narc tendencies probably much stronger back in the day, had me lying to myself about just about everything when it came to my r/s. Staying for the kids, I felt sorry/obligated for/to BPD, had so much time invested cant quit now, i could take on the world and always find a way out, and many more if i thought about it...These were all EXCUSES, and I found out why the day she said, she wanted a divorce, and served me...My abandonment fears kicked in and i was somewhat paralyzed on my living room floor for 3 days,(later i would learn I had something i would compare to what i have read about called a Narcissistic extinction burst) but something inside me told me she wasnt the only reason I felt this way. I was correct. With no recollection of my childhood before six( this is when my adoptive father came into my life) i set out to learn of my childhood and i found out more than i needed to know and could understand how a piece of me was stuck there. These were the same feelings i had in my childhood, and the ones i was avoiding in adulthood. So yes it was the bonnie and clyde, or romeo and juliet syndrome. They both end miserably. I wish you well, Peace

[FindingMe2011]

These past years it seems any therapy I've done has only been to keep my head above water. Maybe with him gone I can make some traction again, finally.

Yes looking from the inside out is blinding/distorted. Looking from the outside in can be enlightening/painful but most of all, truthful. Make sure you work towards your FOO, family of origin, this is where many answers are. I wish you well, Peace

[FindingMe2011]

Just had a recollection of what my exB

What do you mean you were willing to pave the road to hell?

Well, it appears to me, my Narc tendencies probably much stronger back in the day, had me lying to myself about just about everything when it came to my r/s. Staying for the kids, I felt sorry/obligated for/to BPD, had so much time invested cant quit now, i could take on the world and always find a way out, and many more if i thought about it...These were all EXCUSES, and I found out why the day she said, she wanted a divorce, and served me...My abandonment fears kicked in and i was somewhat paralyzed on my living room floor for 3 days,(later i would learn I had something i would compare to what i have read about called a Narcissistic extinction burst) but something inside me told me she wasnt the only reason I felt this way. I was correct. With no recollection of my childhood before six( this is when my adoptive father came into my life) i set out to learn of my childhood and i found out more than i needed to know and could understand how a piece of me was stuck there. These were the same feelings i had in my childhood, and the ones i was avoiding in adulthood. So yes it was the bonnie and clyde, or romeo and juliet syndrome. They both end miserably. I added this as i remembered what she said to me one time. " I would help you bury the body, if you ever killed someone"...baiting me possibly, to see how far I would go? hmm... I wish you well, Peace

[l8kgrl]

I’m glad if any of what I shared was helpful. Honestly, I relate to so much of what you’ve shared.

There’s something about people with these issues claiming to be so enlightened and engaged in self help that just makes you want to jump on board and believe them and support them. I think at some level they know this:

One thing I keep coming back to is actions. Talk is cheap. It doesn’t matter what he says, it just matters what he does. That’s where the proof is in the pudding.

Wishing you peace, clarity and strength

[siobhan823]

I’m glad if any of what I shared was helpful. Honestly, I relate to so much of what you’ve shared.

There’s something about people with these issues claiming to be so enlightened and engaged in self help that just makes you want to jump on board and believe them and support them. I think at some level they know this:

I've been reading Bancroft's book since you mentioned it the other day and it struck me today when I read that people who do this easily pass lie detector tests because they genuinely believe their own distortions.

It makes it a lot easier to believe them when they believe what they are saying.

One thing I keep coming back to is actions. Talk is cheap. It doesn’t matter what he says, it just matters what he does. That’s where the proof is in the pudding.

"Listen to what people do, not what they say."

Always good advice.

[siobhan823]

What do you mean you were willing to pave the road to hell?

Well, it appears to me, my Narc tendencies probably much stronger back in the day, had me lying to myself about just about everything when it came to my r/s. Staying for the kids, I felt sorry/obligated for/to BPD, had so much time invested cant quit now, i could take on the world and always find a way out, and many more if i thought about it...These were all EXCUSES, and I found out why the day she said, she wanted a divorce, and served me...My abandonment fears kicked in and i was somewhat paralyzed on my living room floor for 3 days,(later i would learn I had something i would compare to what i have read about called a Narcissistic extinction burst) but something inside me told me she wasnt the only reason I felt this way. I was correct. With no recollection of my childhood before six( this is when my adoptive father came into my life) i set out to learn of my childhood and i found out more than i needed to know and could understand how a piece of me was stuck there. These were the same feelings i had in my childhood, and the ones i was avoiding in adulthood. So yes it was the bonnie and clyde, or romeo and juliet syndrome. They both end miserably. I wish you well, Peace

I relate to so much of this. I would call it my 'co-dependent tendencies'... in fact I looked up a CoDA meeting to check out early next week. But the extinction burst... I'm going to reflect on that bit. It resonates and prompts me to reflect on whether or not this is the thing (in whole or in part) that seems to be my stumbling block to just start the grieving process already. Something is in the way.

All these seemingly noble reasons to stay... I have thought them all 100 times. But you are right. They are excuses, accepting the comfortable difficult situation instead of the uncomfortable difficult situation.

I, too, was adopted. BTW. I feel the abandonment trauma rear its ugly head often in this r/s. This all makes a lot of sense. 

[FindingMe2011]

Something is in the way.

It was me not wanting to hit rock bottom. I believe it is a combination, but you just as I did, know that some things fit for the first time in my life. Read thru some others posts, its more common than you can imagine. Nothing much in this world is, what it is at face value. Its how we cope. Get back to trusting your instincts. They will serve you well, AGAIN. Actually better if you continue your journey. You are suffering narcissistic injury. Things can be blurry for a while so comprehending things are harder, not impossible...it is also said that helicopter parents are responsible for as many PDs as abusive ones. A growing mind is vulnerable. Many wrong turns can be taken under the guise of love, yet all try their best, even PDs.

They are excuses, accepting the comfortable difficult situation instead of the uncomfortable difficult situation.

I would presume, that i didnt like it as a child either. But it was familiar and i knew how to survive in it, It was a known, not an unknown, the easier path. ( I could almost say thrive, but that would be a lie) This is the difference between surviving and living for me. Its not that far apart and is mistaken all day everyday.

I've been reading Bancroft's book since you mentioned it the other day and it struck me today when I read that people who do this easily pass lie detector tests because they genuinely believe their own distortions.

It makes it a lot easier to believe them when they believe what they are saying.


The same holds true of ALL people, not just "them". This is just a way of differentiating from something you perceive as "bad"/ black . Its not a black and white world, its actually more gray. This is a common trait in cluster b. Its everywhere and accepted by most. Come to understand there is no RIGHT or WRONG, just different. Give me something you perceive as black and white, I can show you a perspective, that holds truth.

They are excuses, accepting the comfortable difficult situation instead of the uncomfortable difficult situation.

Its only uncomfortable because its an unknown, you have never done it. Your subconscious sees this as annihilation, its not serving you well as an adult, it saved you as a child. Through all this mess you have the opportunity to start putting all these wrongfully LEARNED emotions in their proper place, somewhat bringing that lonely child forward, closer to your real self...You will find these feelings become less tense as you process them in healthier ways. This because now you have new tools. Tool collecting should last the rest of your life. This past trauma will no longer dictate your life. I still have the same attractions but at least I understand what Im getting in to. Keep working towards your real self. You will see more of your false self, and learn to find a balance. The happiest people are more balanced. Too much of ANYTHING is not good. There is tangible truth everywhere when we look close enough.

I've been reading Bancroft's book since you mentioned it the other day and it struck me today when I read that people who do this easily pass lie detector tests because they genuinely believe their own distortions.

It makes it a lot easier to believe them when they believe what they are saying.

This would also hold true for ALL on this site. If we didnt lie to ourselves would we be on this site? many cluster Bs do this, but for different reasons. I find myself skipping some threads, as i see this dynamic playing with NO OBJECTIVITY...Therapist know they are in for a match when people claiming they had a great childhood,(helicopter parenting) come into their office. At least abused people see the pain at face value. I found the less I lied to myself, the closer to Peace I became.

in fact I looked up a CoDA meeting to check out early next week.

Tell me how this goes. I found in group settings(you see this here) many are looking for validation, not recovery. Asking a PD to fix a PD, is fruitless IMHO. This is a journey for YOU, by YOU, You do have the tools, use them with no fear and no expectations of yourself (hard to do I know but keep telling yourself) Fake it till you make it. it will become a life style and your emotional base, stronger. I wish you well, Peace.