nightmares

[Methuen]

I've had nightmares all my life, including back into childhood as far as my memory goes.  They are terrifying, and sometimes violent.  I am usually a victim in these horrors, usually at the hand of a male (sorry to all the guys out there rolling their eyes).  When I was small, my mom used to say things to me (inappropriate for a small child) to warn me about all the bad things that could happen to me.  She's a victim at the hands of her father, and her mother passed away when she was 14/15.  Hence the BPD.  I don't watch scary movies, horror movies, or much of anything past "Big Bang" or "feel good" movies.  I never have.  I can't.  Even as a teenager my friends knew not to invite me along to scary movies.
   Two recurring nightmares lately.  One is I'm kayaking with H on a lake, and an aggressive bear is swimming towards us faster than we can turn around and paddle away.  (We're new at this sport.) Two things about this: 1) I'm kind of wondering if the bear is my mom?  2) I am going into the wilderness on a camping/kayaking adventure shortly, and there will be bears.  Lots of them.  The thing is, I'm not scared of bears (black bears), and I have had many summers where I chase them out of our yard.  
  Last night I had a second nightmare:  I was in the trailer (we're in the wilderness with some creature comforts for aging backs and stiff joints), while H and S25 were out kayaking.  While inside the trailer, I hear 2-3 men outside, dousing the trailer with gasoline, and setting it on fire.  I mean, where the heck does this stuff come from?  I have suffered from nightmares my whole life.  My T joked me that when I figured out how to make the nightmares go away, I should let her know.  When I told H about this nightmare today, I was actually crying.  It's kinda traumatic to dream that kind of stuff.  I've never met anyone (apart from my mother), who has dreams of the type that I do.  Help, anyone?

[Mata]

I've had similar nightmares all my life too.  So does my sister.  I also have very intense emotional dreams.  I sometimes wake up crying and can't stop even though I'm fully awake.  Occasionally it will be uncontrollable laughter. 

Recently I had a very powerful dream, where I was at a family dinner with my parents, all grandparents and aunts and uncles.  All at once, everyone started to verbally attack me, and be really mean.  And I felt so sad, hurt and invisible.  Then suddenly, I transformed to an outsider who was watching the scene, who saw my 10 year old self sitting at that table taking emotional abuse.  I went up, wrapped my arms around the little girl me, and led myself away from the table.  It was a bit sci-fi, but also a very soothing dream.  I took as a sign that I'm making progress in healing. 

I would love to get rid of the nightmares though.  The answer, I assume, is better stress and anxiety management. 

[zachira]

Methuen,
I am sorry you are having nightmares. I had terrifying nightmares my whole life until I did EMDR.

[I Am Redeemed]

Methuen,
I am sorry you are having nightmares. I had terrifying nightmares my whole life until I did EMDR.

I think you're in to something, zachira. These nightmares sound like unresolved trauma.

Since I was a child, I have had sporadic nightmares that involve helplessness or powerlessness. When I was a child, before I could drive, the nightmare was being in a car with no driver or a driver with no face. As an adult, the nightmare became being in a car that I lost control of and went off a cliff.

I started EMDR over a year ago and I haven't had a nightmare like that since.

[Sylfine]

Hi Metheun.  You are not alone.  I too have had nightmares as far back as I can remember.  The past several years my animal of warning has been the gator for some reason.  I used to think that they were a warning about a new relationship I was in.  I now realize they were a warning of my mother's interference in said new relationship.  Hugs hun!

Zachira - I'd never heard of that until your post.  Thank you for mentioning it.  Sounds like something a few of us need to look into

[Goldcrest]

Hey Methuen, My therapist loved dreams, that they are the unconscious voice. What she would say to me is to break down some of the elements of the dream and ask yourself what these things mean to you. So I guess my sense is from your dreams is that you feel out of control, threatened and trapped? So perhaps it is a prompt to explore that further? I dream a lot at the moment that I am alone. Not feeling alone but in my dreams my husband no longer appears. I know this is about my working on my attachment issues and learning to experience life as separate.

[zachira]

I figured out the nightmares I had were from when I was an infant due to being left alone in the crib most of the day with my cries unanswered most of the time. I used to dream that I was falling falling etc., and then wake up terrified just before I hit the bottom. EMDR worked yet it is a therapy that probably can only be done in person. Meditation, staying present as much as possible so no feeling becomes too overwhelming, moving stiff body parts to release stored trauma, all can help to process trauma and end the terrible nightmares. Processing trauma takes time. I recently noticed I am no longer afraid to walk alone in the park at night, after dedicating more time to moving parts of my body I usually ignore and meditating.
Having nightmares is awful, and not getting a good night's sleep affects how we feel during the day. Some trauma survivors like to sleep during the day because being asleep at night is too terrifying for them.
I hope this all helps, and I am not hijacking this thread.

[Methuen]

Thanks everyone for replying.  It is somehow helpful to know I am not alone with this problem, although I am very sorry that you also share this problem.

The first time I heard of EMDR was on this website a while back.  I am not sure if anyone practices this where I live.  I am rural.  I will have to look into this.

Unresolved trauma could be possible, although I can't isolate any particular acute episode (rather possible accumulated and compounding effects from chronic stress of growing up with uBPD mom).

I figured out the nightmares I had were from when I was an infant due to being left alone in the crib most of the day with my cries unanswered most of the time.

I am so interested in this.  If you don't mind my asking, how did you learn about being an infant left alone in a crib Zachira?  Did you have siblings tell you?  If you don't care to share that personal information, that is OK.  I'm not trying to be intrusive.  Just trying to dig a little into my own problem with nightmares.  I was an only child.  My mother is not a mother who tells the truth.  I have no way of knowing what happened to me before my brain had enough pathways to form memories of my own.  I only know that I already had nightmares when I was very little, and there is no one left whom I can ask about that time in my life.  I can only imagine my mother couldn't cope well.  My dad was at work, and my mom was home alone with me and felt trapped.  That much only, have I gleaned from statements she made about "not being able to "work" because she had me".  

Huh.  As I wrote that last sentence, I realize how terrible it sounds, and what a terrible thing it is to say to a daughter over and over.  I never saw that before.  I used to just excuse it because it was a time when many women didn't work after having children.  

Some trauma survivors like to sleep during the day because being asleep at night is too terrifying for them.

This is my mom totally.  At 84 she sleeps during the day, and is up much of the night doing whatever.  When she was in her 40's she would be cross-stitching at 3am.  When she was in her 60's she would be canning peaches at 3am or making jam.   Now that she's in her 80's and can hardly see, she's up on the computer playing games in enlarged print at 3am.  Before I learned about BPD, I used to ignorantly try to rationalize with her why it's not healthy to keep a sleep routine.  I thought I was helping her by sharing info about sleep research.  She never cared of course.  I couldn't understand it.  Now I get her behavior, and the reasons for it, and let her make whatever choices are right for her.  As for my coping mechanism, up until a year ago, I didn't have one.  Just layed there and tried to get back to sleep, and when I did, I would often be woken up again by the exact same nightmare sometimes multiple times over in the same night.  I never wanted to turn on a nightlight and read (books for me, carry enough magic to distract my mind) because I didn't want to wake my H up in the middle of the night, and getting up and walking around for a while wasn't enough to prevent the same nightmare from recurring.  In the past year, what I have found works for me is to go on my phone (terrible sleep hygiene I know), for as long as it takes for me to get sleepy, or go on my meditation app. Either of those, deal with the symptoms in the short term (without the nightmare recurring). 

But I would like to know what is behind these traumatic nightmares I've had my whole life.    Just curious, can people without trauma have these kinds of traumatic nightmares? 

Thanks for sharing your stories about nightmares.  It helps me feel understood, and less alone.

[I Am Redeemed]

Unresolved trauma could be possible, although I can't isolate any particular acute episode (rather possible accumulated and compounding effects from chronic stress of growing up with uBPD mom).

This is exactly the kinds of things that cause Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (C-PTSD). Even if you don't actually have the disorder, the complex trauma can affect you.

Search online for an EMDR trauma specialist. zachira is correct that it is usually done in person, but over the quarantine my therapist did attempt it with me via zoom and it worked for me.

EMDR assists in "flipping" the neural pathways in the brain. Having a parent that was not reliable as a secure and safe caregiver affects the way our neural pathways develop in childhood. Feeling unsafe in childhood or not receiving the care and affection we needed can affect parts of the brain such as the amygdala, the hippocampus, and the prefrontal cortex. Insecure attachments to caregivers can cause children to experience repeated physiological stress which can cause lasting effects. The good news is that new neural pathways can be created in our brains, which is where therapies like EMDR come in.

[Methuen]

Thanks for explaining this IamRedeemed.  This explanation has left me wanting to learn more.  I must admit, it's a bit overwhelming. 

[Mata]

Unresolved trauma could be possible, although I can't isolate any particular acute episode (rather possible accumulated and compounding effects from chronic stress of growing up with uBPD mom). 
 . . .
But I would like to know what is behind these traumatic nightmares I've had my whole life.    Just curious, can people without trauma have these kinds of traumatic nightmares? 

I had long believed that I didn't experience trauma as a child.  I partly believed this due to denial, and partly because my definition of trauma only meant something big and catastrophic.  But my T has explained that there is big "T" trauma and little "t" trauma (aka accumulated from chronic stress in childhood) and both can have long-lasting effects and that both are real.  So I would venture a guess that yes, traumatic nightmares could be present even without a "T" trauma.  

The first time I heard of EMDR was on this website a while back.  I am not sure if anyone practices this where I live.  I am rural.  I will have to look into this.

Me too.  I'm interested in it.  My T doesn't offer it, and I'm not sure how it would work with my insurance to go to two Ts at the same time.  And I'm not sure about starting over with a new T.  

Huh.  As I wrote that last sentence, I realize how terrible it sounds, and what a terrible thing it is to say to a daughter over and over.  I never saw that before.  I used to just excuse it because it was a time when many women didn't work after having children.

My mom told me over and over how she never wanted a kid, and only got married because she was pregnant.  My parents had a tumultuous, abusive relationship, and I always felt it was my fault because I was the only reason they had to get married.  It's a messed up thing to tell a kid.  (My dad said it to me too.)  I also excused this inappropriate talk for a long time because it was the cultural norm that pregnant=get married at the time.
I also sometimes wonder what kind of parenting I had as a baby.  My maternal grandmother committed suicide 2 months before I was born, and my parents moved away from their hometown, and all their friends/family right afterwards.  So my BPDmom was left trying to handle an infant alone in the height of her grief.  My dad was abusing drugs badly at the time, according to him.  By the time I was 2, my mom ended up in a psych hospital.  So who knows what was going on.  I doubt it was great.  

[zachira]

The hardest trauma to process and recover from is preverbal trauma which we only have bodily memories of, yet no coherent narrative. I figured out I was left in the crib as a baby unattended for hours on end by the following: 1) For years, I would have nightmares sleeping in the room where I slept as a baby and I would wake up seeing a crying toddler in the crib. I finally concluded that crying toddler had to be me. 2) I have younger siblings. When they cried as babies, mom was terrified. Mom was never able to respond to or to nurture any baby the way normal people do. She always was uncomfortable holding babies and never could respond to their emotional cues. Because there is no verbal coherent narrative of early trauma, I find that any kind of therapy that does not require putting into words what happened to be effective in treating what seem like unfounded fears and strange nightmares.

[Methuen]

For years, I would have nightmares sleeping in the room where I slept as a baby and I would wake up seeing a crying toddler in the crib. I finally concluded that crying toddler had to be me.  I have younger siblings. When they cried as babies, mom was terrified. Mom was never able to respond to or to nurture any baby the way normal people do. She always was uncomfortable holding babies and never could respond to their emotional cues.

This could be my mom too.  You got me thinking.  I went to the photo album, and there aren't many pictures of me as a baby, but my dad is holding me in all of them except one.  Interesting.  In all my years as an only child growing up, I never saw my mom hold a baby.  I didn't think much of it until now.  It could fit.  My mom never hugged me as a child.  Not even when I left home to to university.  There were no hugs ever from her, just from my dad.  Interestingly, when my H entered the scene, he introduced hugs, and then she got into asking for them.  As an aside, after my dad died and met a new bf, the day she introduced us to each other, she said "now you too hug each other" (me and her new bf).  Back then I had never heard of BPD, but now I see it as a part of a pattern of either messed up boundaries or no boundaries at all (depending on the situation), and a lack of most basic social skills.

I hope this all helps, and I am not hijacking this thread.

Definitely not hijacking. Everything helps. It all keeps me thinking, and searching...

[zachira]

I am so sad that your mother did not hold you and was not affectionate with you as a baby, that there were no hugs until your bf started giving her one.
I have another strange story to tell which I hope is helpful and not hijacking your thread. I never had any interest in children until I was in my early forties. I worked in a program that helped young children and parents. One day I had an intern shadowing me, and I asked her for some honest feedback. She told me that I had never looked at the infant while I was interacting with the child's mother. I had worked there for years, seen hundreds of babies and children, and never made any effort to interact with any of them. After that I started interacting with the infants and children. A couple years later, I was at the bank and there was a toddler running in between the people in line. This woman said to me something like, "I can see you love children and you are a mother". Later on, I worked as a counselor in the elementary schools, and the children loved me and I loved them, the best job I ever had. I never wanted to leave at the end of the day.
The reason I tell this story, is when we are so badly neglected as small children and have no pre verbal memories of the neglect, many times we are capable of waking up the parts of the brain that are closed down. You want to reconstruct what happened, and it sounds like you are now realizing that you were neglected by your mother. I am wondering if your father made a big difference so you were not as affected. I hear a longing to be seen by your mother, and a desire to connect with her before she is gone.

[Methuen]

I am wondering if your father made a big difference so you were not as affected.

Absolutely, he made a big difference.  You are right about that.  He was a "non", and probably the reason I am a "non" (although I sometimes worry I have picked up too much from my mother, and strive hard not to be like her).  I have called him a saint on other threads.  He was well respected and loved by all who knew him.  My "longing for my mom" would be to have a normal healthy relationship, but I have completely (and radically) accepted her for who she is, so any longing about my mom is in the past.  A longing "to connect" with her, well maybe, but I'm pretty pragmatic about my relationship with her at this point.  All I want really, is to have and hold boundaries, sidestep drama, and maintain a healthy emotional distance, without being too distant, if that makes sense.  Mom is so dysfunctional now, that even her grandchildren struggle to know what to do in their simplist interactions with her.  It's just sad.  It's like a locomotive train coming down the tracks, and I can watch, but am helpless to stop the oncoming crash. She's almost blind, nearly deaf, can't walk, a heart risk, a stroke risk (she's had a few already), a fall risk (she's had half a dozen in the past few years) but she's insisting on staying in her home, and refusing to go on a waiting list for assisted living (which she easily qualified for) which is a two year waiting list.  Everyone who knows her can see the oncoming train wreck if they have eyes.  She has a fear of being "stuck in a home and being forgotten" (abandoned right?).  She says "bad things happen to people in those homes".  The assisted living and long term care facilities where we live are  good, and she knows that because my dad was in it when he had dementia and received great care.  I personally know so many people that work there, and they are good people!  But she's not a rational thinker, she's an emotional thinker, and fear drives her attitudes and behavior, so all I can do is watch her decay, let her make her own choices, and deal with the next "crisis" when it comes.  I can't prevent it.  It will be either another fall, or a stroke.  Experts here have told me as much.  I think in the past I used to "long" for a genuine relationship with my mother, like all my friends have with their mothers, but that meant I tried to change her from who she really was, so now I just hope to make the best of whatever time I have with her before her next health/injury crisis, when I become all black again, and her scapegoat so she can vent her rage towards me about "going into a home".  H and I know she can't live with us - our lives would be over.  It would be hell.  So sad to say that, but it's the truth.  I think mom and I are in a kind of homeostasis with the relationship we have now.  A fraction of a degree either side of the line, and that homeostasis turns into dysregulation.  I use the tools from this site to interact with her, and I keep the contact low for my well-being.  She has friends - really good people - who she manipulates to fill up her emptiness.  They come and go.  When they go, she somehow always finds a new one to step in for the old one.  I don't know how she does it.  I also don't know what they think of me.  I used to worry about it, but I've kind of moved past that too.  For the first time in my life, I'm learning how to look after me. 

She told me that I had never looked at the infant while I was interacting with the child's mother.

This must have been a revelation / bombshell. Growing up with a mother who left you in the crib to cry probably meant you grew up feeling insignificant, and unimportant as a child, or even just "in the way".  What is so touching in your story Zachira, is that (1) you sought feedback from an intern (this speaks VOLUMES about your good character!  How many managers and administrators and CEO's don't seek feedback and thus never change for the better, but only get worse!) and (2) this new awareness led to a change and reawakening that motivated you.  As a result you discovered a passion (children) that brought you joy and was visible to total strangers (the woman at the bank).  I'm so happy for you about that. Your life experience and skills would make you a great counsellor in schools.  You would recognize kids who needed to be recognized, and you've walked a mile in their shoes so you "get it".  You cared about them.  No wonder they loved you.
  As to reconstructing my past, yes, I would like to learn where my nightmares come from because they are not "normal".  They are worse in times of stress.  I would like to "lose" the nightmares.  I'm thinking that is going to take some work, like everything else.

[zachira]

You had a caring father. I am sure you miss him more than ever now that you are dealing with your mother without him. I think sometimes we don't give fathers enough credit for how they make big differences in children's lives, and can be just as important as mothers.
Your mother sound like she has to be in control, and going to assisted living would mean she could no longer march to her own drummer all the time. In the meantime, you worry about what could happen to her, and really can't do much about her decisions. I am glad you and your husband have decided you could never allow her to live with you.
Thank you for understanding about my journey with its challenges and lights at the end of the tunnels.
You think it is going to be difficult to stop having nightmares. I have learned that sometimes things we think are going to be easy, end up being terribly difficult, and sometimes things we think are going to be hard may end up all of sudden resolving even when we weren't working at it. I have been increasing my being present sessions, doing body work and meditation, and all of sudden, I am no longer afraid walking in the park at night. I am thinking that you might like to read: "The Body Keeps the Score" which explores the most recent innovations in healing from trauma.

[delia211]

Hi Methuen and others on this thread, 

I came back to the discussion board today specifically because I've been having worsening nightmares.  Seeing this thread already here was both surprising and reassuring to know I came to the right place.  I sympathize very much with you as I definitely understand how emotionally intense and disruptive these nightmares can be.  I think none of us will ever get a definitive answer on what dreams mean, but I think that unresolved trauma is a likely answer.  It makes sense that our subconscious minds would continue to revisit situations and emotions we struggle to process.  I haven't heard of EDMR but am interested to learn more about it. 

My nightmares have mostly involved situations where I am a younger version of myself, trapped somewhere with my mother while she is either being menacing toward me or mischaracterizing a situation to a third party and I feel unable to do anything about it.  Based on my experiences with her, the themes of these dreams make sense.  My T thinks that being stuck at home so much due to the pandemic is triggering these old feelings of being trapped and powerless, though thankfully I am home with my husband and not with her.  This could also be relevant to some of you. 

I agree with Zachira, it definitely does sound difficult to deal with the challenges of having a BPD mother facing old age and the need to give up control, especially if control was always a significant part of her behavior.  However, it sounds like you have the right mindset, realistic goals, and healthy boundaries.  I think I am a bit behind you in my journey of accepting the situation for what it is but I am hoping to get there too.  Sending my thoughts and good wishes for your fortitude during the trying times.

[missing NC]

Hi Methuen,

I have had nightmares for the last few years.  Many time over the course of the last excruciating year, they have been horrific nightlong ordeals.  The only thing I have found that seems to move them from the horrific to the merely unpleasant category is doing a body scan before bed.  The body scan is a form of mindfulness that appears to be less commonly used than meditation but works well for many people.  Jon Kabat-Zinn, the founder of mindfulness based stress reduction, has a really nice one at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15q-N-_kkrU&t=977s .  There are flat earphones that can be used for sleeping if you are concerned about keeping your husband awake (or waking him up). 

I agree with your assessment that the bear most likely signifies your mom.  It sounds like are you are well versed in sleep hygiene given that you mention your concern about reaching for your phone.  I do the same thing.  I have not purchased one, but I know some folks who worry that screen exposure will wake them up even more use blue screen blockers. 

In any case, given the large numer of responses to your post, it's evident that many share your challenge. 

[Methuen]

Thanks to everyone who has posted here.  I am back home from our road trip into the wilderness of lakes, kayaking, and being off the grid. Before we left home, I wondered if my nightmares would stop as I travelled further away from my mother.  They did not - for the first half of the trip.  The second half of the trip saw fewer nightmares.

Mata:

Recently I had a very powerful dream, where I was at a family dinner with my parents, all grandparents and aunts and uncles.  All at once, everyone started to verbally attack me, and be really mean.  And I felt so sad, hurt and invisible.  Then suddenly, I transformed to an outsider who was watching the scene, who saw my 10 year old self sitting at that table taking emotional abuse.  I went up, wrapped my arms around the little girl me, and led myself away from the table.

 This is so incredibly powerful!  Thank you also for sharing your T's words about big T, and little t.  That gives me something to consider and think about.

Zachira:  I am in the process of getting my hands on a copy of "The Body Knows the Score".  Thank you for suggesting the title.  I have a number of chronic body issues which I wonder if they could be related to stress including IBS and back pain. I am looking forward to reading Van der Kolk's perspective.

Thanks again everyone for chipping in...it's good to know I'm not alone in experiencing this kind of nightmare, and also good to know that some of you have found your own ways to recover from them.  It lets me know it's a possibility to recover from having them, and that perhaps I don't have to live with them for the remainder of my life if I am willing to work at it.

MissingNC: thanks for the link you posted to Jon Kabat-Zinn.  I will put more effort into body scans, in particular using the link you provided.  Thanks.

[Mata]

I am in the process of getting my hands on a copy of "The Body Knows the Score".  Thank you for suggesting the title.  I have a number of chronic body issues which I wonder if they could be related to stress including IBS and back pain. I am looking forward to reading Van der Kolk's perspective.

I recently ordered this book, and am about half way through - it's really a good read so far. 

[zachira]

So glad to hear the interest in "The Body Knows the Score" by Mata and Methuen. Do let us know what you think when you finish the book. We have so many emotionally and bodily stored memories that can only be processed through body-mind work. The first body-mind work I ever tried was massage. The massage therapists were somewhat uncomfortable working on me, as I was very uncomfortable being touched most of the time, and stuck out the discomfort for years with different massage therapists until I was able to gradually feel more pleasure from being touched. I now know from talking with those who do body-mind work with trauma victims that sometimes a trauma victim cannot tolerate touch at all  until trust has been established which can take months; caring gentle touch has to be gradually introduced. I have had sleep problems all my life though I am making tremendous progress. I used to have a hard time going to bed and was never a morning person. With the heat wave, for the first time in my life, I am able to go to bed at 8 pm and easily get up before the sun rises to take an early walk. I attribute this to doing all kinds of stretching and breathing exercises to get through the traumatic times I am going through now with my siblings. I am hoping for the best for all of you who have shared your sleep challenges, especially terrible nightmares. I think you will get better as you incorporate different kinds of body-mind work into your daily lives, and will find yourselves feeling so much better overall. Keep us all posted on how you are doing, so we can share in your journey and learn from you.