Need advice with my BPD wife

[Brooklyn1974]

This is in reference to another thread I have on here but haven't gotten any advice lately and can really use it.  I'm lost and hurt very bad right now.

To summarize, been married since 2004.  My wife has basically all the BPD traits.  She saw a psychologist for a few months and was told she has BPD and finally things start to make sense of her crazy behavior.  The psychologist did tell me if I ever did divorce her that she would commit suicide. She cheated, lied, financially irresponsible, etc..  We also have a 12 year old daughter.  Though I love her dearly and can see the pain from her past (childhood trauma).  She is also a recovering alcoholic.

All three of us have been through a lot and my goal was to make life as good as possible for my wife and daughter.  My wife started to really dysregulate back in March when the CV-19 started.  She went from being in an office 5 days a week, staying busy to remotely working at home.  She slowly lost motivation (as she admits) with her work.  I felt the pressure from this and I was busy licking my own wounds at the time and was standoffish with her for two months.  I wasn't mean but sort of kept to myself and wasn't supportive in what she was going through, though she never sat me down and said 'This or that is bothering me'.

In June my daughter and I got a huge surprise from my wife who said she was moving out.  Her parents were divorced when she was a teenager and dad is a narcissist.  Her father helped her find a place (which happens to be an apartment building owned by her ex-bf).  She also got a second phone which she communicates with him, though she said it's 'only business'.  She said she did this because I tracked her (she was acting highly suspicious and I checked the online phone log) in which I was upfront and told her about.  She used this as the excuse/reason.

During these two months she has spent basically every night at my house and the weekends.  She said she uses the apartment for work, that she cannot work in the house due to all the distractions.  I know, it sounds very strange.  My daughter is taking this very hard and wants mom to give up the apartment and this second phone.  We have been in counseling since the end of June.  During this time I have been following all the tools on here and we have not had any arguments however I only touch on the relationship questions sparingly outside of the counselor.

Had counseling yesterday and she dropped another bombshell, that the marriage is over.  She doesn't want to salvage it and laying blanket statements about me.  When I ask for an example she gets defensive and tells me she doesn't have to.  I tried to tell her that I received no communication from you in regards to what was bothering you and her reply was that 'I didn't have to'.  Very difficult to deal with in counseling.  

She wants to be 'friends' and to continue to stay at the house to co-parent our daughter.  I told her this would be too hard for me to just see you all the time (there are times she will lay around naked) and not try to be romantic with you.  She kept on saying I was controlling / smothering her, however again when asked for times I was this way she would not attempt to come up with any.  Yesterday my daughter talked to her and told her mom that she never communicated with us about how she is feeling.  My daughter (bless her heart) told her mom she wants a 'restart' to all of this and that if you are just dad's friend and you don't look at him as your husband then she is losing her too.  I did not want my daughter to take this role, I didn't know what she would say to my wife when she asked her to come over last night to talk.  My daughter wants us to be a family again and to enjoy life.  She asked her mom 'Is this something you will do?  Do a restart and be a family?'.  My wife first said 'I can just be friends with your dad and still be a family' in which my daughter said No.  She then asked again if you will do this for us?  My wife replied yes but I believe it was to smooth things over with my daughter.

My wife has me painted black, I was never abusive towards her but I also didn't put in any boundaries which has really hurt me.  I told my wife that it was not ok to stay the night anymore, to which she got very upset.  Is she staying because of possible abandonment feelings?  I don't know what to do here.  I don't want to be used but does me forcing her to stay at her apartment going to cause more harm than good?  My goal here is to get my wife to be a part of the family again and get her to feel safe around us.

I feel like I am walking on a tightrope and one false move and this is done.  Even before counseling before my wife came in the counselor thought that my wife wanted to stay in the marriage.  I need some expert advice on how to approach this.

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[pursuingJoy]

I told my wife that it was not ok to stay the night anymore, to which she got very upset.

It's what works best for you. Under the circumstances, I think it's a reasonable boundary to have in place.

I feel like I am walking on a tightrope and one false move and this is done. 

I've felt this panic before. I get it. I know I'm stating the obvious, but there are parts of this that you cannot control. I hope you find some relief in owning that this isn't just about your next move.

You may have mentioned this in a previous post, if so, sorry for the duplication. Have you ever read "Stop Walking on Eggshells?" It addresses some of this panicked pressure you're feeling so much better than I could.

How is your daughter? 12 is a rough age to go through something like this.  When I went through my divorce, it took effort from both of us to keep the kids out of the middle. She sounds spunky, and I love that she was honest with her mom, but would she be open to stepping back and letting the adults hash it out?   

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for replying.  I have talked to my daughter and often tell her before my wife comes over to just 'put things to the side right now and enjoy the night'.  A lot of the times it helps but my wife believes this is 'all about her' and the stress in the household (which is all based on her leaving).  She refuses to accept that.  My daughter is spunky and she has moments where she will want answers from her mom, which she will not give.  What she did say to my daughter I believe made things worse by saying 'I made a choice but I won't tell you until school starts' which is another 3 weeks away.  All it did was increase my daughter's anxiety.

My wife has zero coping skills and expects me to referee any arguments they have.  I did contact a lawyer but won't be seen until September.  I have some questions that need to be answered if a divorce happens.  My wife refuses to divorce, she told my daughter if we divorce that 'Dad is the one that will do it'.  

She raged on me Tuesday night out of the blue saying 'She cannot trust me', which I never cheated or abused her.  I have been reading up on this and what to do when they say these things.  She also talks about 'control' but I now better understand what she means (engulfment) than actual control over somebody's actions.  I would reply that I never stopped her from going places, seeing people, etc.. and she would give me a blank stare.  Now I understand why.

I told her last night that we need to talk about the issue of staying overnight to which she did not reply back.  What's weird is that the prior month of her coming over every night and staying every weekend we didn't argue once.  We actually got along, except that she was cold emotionally.  When we got to counseling she just raged on me telling me the marriage is over.  

Is her wanting to stay overnight at the house a way for her to try to stop any abandonment fears?  My goal is to get her regulated and be there for our daughter.  Her stress is still very high and I know she is running into money issues already, in which I will not help.

Also our wedding anniversary is in 3 weeks.  Do I just pretend it's another day?  Last night she sounded a little down because she had to work her second job on that day.  By me ignoring the day or not getting her anything is that going to push more abandonment fears?  I feel like I fool if I get her something and she just throws it in my face (ie. her telling me again that we are done).

I did make a mistake in April, for her birthday I did get her something but it really wasn't much.  I usually try to make that day special but with her bad attitude (now I know it was stress related to her work) and me being distant licking my own wounds I started thinking back on the things she has done to me and focusing on that.  It wasn't healthy for me and wasn't taking into account her BPD.  I think that really pushed her away with her fears.  Her family really never did anything for her birthday and she was pushed aside quite a bit by them.

I appreciate anything you can offer.

[babyducks]

 My daughter is spunky and she has moments where she will want answers from her mom, which she will not give.  What she did say to my daughter I believe made things worse by saying 'I made a choice but I won't tell you until school starts' which is another 3 weeks away.  All it did was increase my daughter's anxiety.

I am struggling a bit with how involved your daughter is in troubleshooting/problem solving what is basically an adult martial problem.   I would encourage you to remove your daughter from this triangle.   I would encourage you to protect your daughter in more age appropriate way.   

There is a thing called the Karpman drama triangle.   we talk about it a lot here.   (google for more information)     using a third person to stabilize or destabilize a relationship is Karpman drama triangle.

My wife has zero coping skills and expects me to referee any arguments they have.  I did contact a lawyer but won't be seen until September.  I have some questions that need to be answered if a divorce happens.  My wife refuses to divorce, she told my daughter if we divorce that 'Dad is the one that will do it'.

pwBPD have limited executive functioning.    it's more difficult for them to process information through multiple steps.    

for example.   a pwBPD might want a new car... they are more likely to 'fall in love' with a certain model and impulse buy, where a person not burdened with excessive traits of BPD would do some research... visit car dealers... look at budget.

so a pwBPD might want something but not have the executive function to follow steps to obtain it.

She raged on me Tuesday night out of the blue saying 'She cannot trust me', which I never cheated or abused her.  I have been reading up on this and what to do when they say these things.  She also talks about 'control' but I now better understand what she means (engulfment) than actual control over somebody's actions.  I would reply that I never stopped her from going places, seeing people, etc.. and she would give me a blank stare.  Now I understand why.

for pwBPD feelings=facts.   pwBPD believe their feelings are created by events or others and they have almost no control over their feelings.

I told her last night that we need to talk about the issue of staying overnight to which she did not reply back.  

serious question Brooklyn -   who is the emotional leader in your family?  you?   your wife?  your daughter?   No right or wrong answers... but your first thought ... who is the emotional leader in your family right now?   who sets the mood?   who generates the atmosphere? 

and who do you think should be the emotional leader in your family?   who should have that role?   

 My goal is to get her regulated and be there for our daughter.  

that's a good goal.    how do you think you can impact this?   maybe I should say how much can you reasonably impact this?    which do you think would be better?   matching your moods to hers in the hopes it calms her or creating space for your moods to be expressed appropriately?

I know... tough questions.     some deep stuff to think through...

[Brooklyn1974]

Hi babyducks,

  I try to keep my daughter out of it but it's near impossible.  My wife and her were bonded at the hip, did just about everything together (she even went to my wife's AA meetings) which I did not agree with but the people there supported it.  My daughter often tells my wife that she feels like the adult over her.  My daughter experienced a lot of things that my wife has done.  I keep my daughter as busy as possible (constantly having friends over at my mom's house, dance camp, going places, etc..) however at the end of the night at the house is when she still faces this issue.  I want my daughter to be a child and my wife says the same as well but it's just been constant drama especially the past few months.

  I would love to be the emotional leader but it seems like if some thing is wrong then my wife basically is the emotional leader.  For example last night, everything was peaceful then out of the blue our dogs got into it.  It was over a piece of food and normally this never happens.  Anyway my wife grabbed the one and got scratched bad and my daughter got scared and screamed, which happened to be by my wife's ear.  My wife went into a rage telling my daughter multiple times not to scream in her ear and how (curse words) awful this place is.  That got my daughter even more upset.  I told my wife, I understand you are upset however our daughter did not intentionally scream in your ear, it was just a reaction.  Well then my wife started on me, to which I didn't JADE.  So it's like anything can set off a chain of events.  You don't know when it will go off either.  

They both have issues in dealing with stress, however my daughter I can talk to and she calms down immediately.  My wife, forget it.  She will hold onto that.

If I were to match my moods to my wife's, that would create a firestorm.  You are right to her what she feels is facts and it's stressful in not just trying to keep the peace in what I say or do but praying that nothing stressful that's out of my control happens.  It just seems like anything that is stressful in my wife's life is put upon our daughter and me.

[babyducks]

 I try to keep my daughter out of it but it's near impossible.  My wife and her were bonded at the hip, did just about everything together (she even went to my wife's AA meetings) which I did not agree with but the people there supported it.  My daughter often tells my wife that she feels like the adult over her.

of course Brooklyn.  I didn't mean to imply that it would be easy to break this pattern.   it's long established and in some ways it keeps the family functioning.    unfortunately it keeps the family functioning in ways that aren't the best for any of you.   

your daughter shouldn't be the adult over you wife.    and she shouldn't be telling your wife she feels like the adult over her.  this creates a dynamic in which your daughter is trying to manage adult relationships.   it's not her responsibility.    and she doesn't have the maturity to handle it.   she can be the best and brightest kid but this still isn't her job.   

how do you think you can start to break up this pattern?   what could you say to your daughter?   can you play it out with us here?

your daughter says "I feel like the adult in this family... like it's my job to take care of Mom all the time."

what do you say?   how do you respond?     how can you begin to redirect this into a better place for your daughter?

  

 I would love to be the emotional leader but it seems like if some thing is wrong then my wife basically is the emotional leader.  

for a BPD relationship to work some one has to be the emotional leader... to have clear, calm, centered approaches to conflict, stress, and what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior.    the emotional leader has to model mature emotional behavior.   

 

however our daughter did not intentionally scream in your ear, it was just a reaction.  Well then my wife started on me, to which I didn't JADE.  So it's like anything can set off a chain of events.  You don't know when it will go off either.

this is drama triangle stuff Brooklyn.. some one is the victim... some one is the persecutor,   someone is the rescuer.    I am curious... can you see who has which role?    you want to stay off the drama triangle.    that's a huge change in mindset.    it's a vastly different way of seeing things.   the dogs have a spat.   drama unfolds.    how do you stop or limit the drama?     

If I were to match my moods to my wife's, that would create a firestorm.  You are right to her what she feels is facts and it's stressful in not just trying to keep the peace in what I say or do but praying that nothing stressful that's out of my control happens.  It just seems like anything that is stressful in my wife's life is put upon our daughter and me.

you're right .. trying to match your wife's mood will create a firestorm.   so will trying to manage her mood.     

so that leaves you with dealing with your moods and feelings in ways that feel better for you.   healthier ways.   

what do you think?

[Brooklyn1974]

I often refer to myself as the referee when there is an argument between those two and I told my wife that I refuse to do this.  As for the drama with the dogs, how should I have handled it?  My wife was badgering my daughter telling her multiple times over a ten minute period she should have not screamed in her ear and was not polite about it.  I wasn't about to let my daughter be continued to be berated.  I figured telling her once (in a nice way) would be enough.  So if I interject I am triangulating but if I don't then I let my daughter basically get verbally abused?  I'm confused. 

I often also tell my daughter that I am here to deal with the issue with mom.  I can see the hurt in her and she is just looking for answers.  When she asks why mom does this, I tell her mom's mind is confused and she has a hard time dealing with stress.  I have told my daughter that when you see mom getting upset to just walk away and not to continue to confront the issue.  That mom will eventually calm down.  My daughter has a higher emotional IQ than my wife.  I know it's messed up.

How can I break this pattern? What else can I do to get this stress off my daughter's shoulders?

As controlling my moods I find myself just trying to stay as quiet as possible around my wife.  It's because anything can set her off and I am just waiting for the storm that is about to come in regards to her finances.  I know she is already having money issues and I am set on not helping her anymore.  I have bailed her out financially for the past 18 years.  When she realizes I am no longer there, she will explode and I know some how I will pay for it.  When she is there at the house there feels like this huge ball of volatile energy waiting to explode at any moment.  She is on max does of anti-depressants however she's not being treated for BPD.

[babyducks]

I often refer to myself as the referee when there is an argument between those two and I told my wife that I refuse to do this.  As for the drama with the dogs, how should I have handled it?  My wife was badgering my daughter telling her multiple times over a ten minute period she should have not screamed in her ear and was not polite about it.  I wasn't about to let my daughter be continued to be berated.  I figured telling her once (in a nice way) would be enough.  So if I interject I am triangulating but if I don't then I let my daughter basically get verbally abused?  I'm confused. 

yes this is confusing as  .   one size does not fit all and one answer doesn't always work.

let's play with some ideas here...  the dogs have a spat.   your daughter screams.    and your wife dsyregulates.    your wife is taking out her emotions on your daughter.   basically dumping her negative emotions of frustrations and stress onto a third party.

what would happen if you asked your daughter to take the dogs outside for 15 minutes?     would your daughter go?    or is she so invested in the drama she wants to continue to engage.    your daughter is the target.  your wife can't regulate her emotions.    telling your wife to regulate her emotions and explaining why she should did not help.   I'm guessing it probably made things worse.   

walk this through for me.     how do you think things would have gone if you said.   daughter take dog(s) outside and I will join you in 5 minutes.   AFTER your daughter is out of ear shot and not participating in adult drama... you say to your wife your own version of 'hey don't take this out on our kid... we will be back in a little while'.

let me be very very very clear.    abuse is never okay.   verbal abuse is never okay.    the generally accepted advice is to walk away calmly from verbal abuse.   the only time this advice doesn't hold is when it's not safe to leave.

removing yourself from verbal abuse removes the target.     when your wife dysregulates she is getting something out of yelling at your daughter... a place to dump her emotions.    removing your daughter means your wife has to address her emotions either in a conversation with you... or by soothing herself.   

make sense?

  I have told my daughter that when you see mom getting upset to just walk away and not to continue to confront the issue. 

how do you enforce this?  do you say to your daughter 'its time to leave the room while your mother and I talk?'   something along those lines?

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for the advice.  It's something I am going to remember for future episodes.  When my wife was throwing her emotions on her my daughter just started playing a game on her phone and wasn't responding until my wife kept pursuing it and then that's when I stepped in.  It was already dark outside so I didn't want my daughter outside by herself.  I will have a talk with my daughter that next time this happens I will ask her to go upstairs for a little bit so I can talk to her mom by myself.  I don't believe my daughter will have an issue with this.

So basically anytime my wife dysregulates we walk away?  I do the JADE and SET with her (not 100% of the time, I still make mistakes in the heat of the moment).  Next time those two get into an argument, I will just ask my daughter to come with me away from her mother.  I'm basically the parent to my daughter and my wife.   

[pursuingJoy]

babyducks, solid advice.

Brooklyn, it sounds like this feels doable to you. Let us know how it works. Sometimes it takes a few tries.

I will have a talk with my daughter that next time this happens I will ask her to go upstairs for a little bit so I can talk to her mom by myself.  I don't believe my daughter will have an issue with this.

Next time those two get into an argument, I will just ask my daughter to come with me away from her mother. 

Even if the two of them get into an argument, I like the idea of asking your daughter to leave the room so that you can talk to her mother. Just telling daughter to come away with you may appear that you're trying to get the kid on your side. That may put your wife on the defensive and it puts the kid in a really tough spot, as no child should have to choose between parents.

It helps me to have a few plans in the hopper (get ice cream for dessert, walk the dogs, go for a drive) so that no matter what time of day the argument happens, you have a smooth exit.

Depending on how much your wife is dysregulating, you may even want to invite her. "I'm going to get ice cream for dessert. Who wants to join me?" This gives your wife a sense of agency - she can choose to join you or not. It also sets a firm tone that you, as the emotional leader, are changing topics of conversation. You can use this energy to steer the situation in a different direction.
   

[SunnydaysinCA]

I’m sorry you’re going through that. I can certainly relate to a lot of what you’re going through. I’ve been married 5 years and in those short years my BPD husband has moved out at least 5 times. Literally, packing everything he owns and leaving. During one of the “moved out” episodes he admitted to cheating on me with his ex wife. I also caught him texting another woman and lied about that for almost a year. He’s lied so often I don’t believe anything that comes out of his mouth including the words “I love you”.
We’ve been to marriage counseling ( not helpful especially when he doesn’t admit he’s done anything wrong). The cheating on me with the ex according to him doesn’t count because he “moved out”. Sounds like an episode of “Friends” right? “We were on a break Rachel”! UGH.  I’ve been to counseling and I was told I didn’t set any boundaries either. Which is true. I allowed him to come back over and over. In your case, you can start setting boundaries now. Don’t wait until she learns it’s okay to always leave cause you will take her back each time she leaves ( like my scenario). I hope your situation improves. I’m in the middle of a great audiobook titled “How to stop caretaking the BPD” I think it would help you.

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you.  I am going to give that a try.  As for the question of our wedding anniversary do I even get her anything?  Like I said for her Birthday I usually made it a special day for her but with what was going on I didn't do anything for her.  It will be 16 years.  I just don't want her to use it as a reason to say 'No, I told you we are done.' but then if I don't do anything I am sure she will push away further. 

I asked her if she wanted anything special last week (this was before she told me the marriage was done) and she said no, she didn't want anything.  I feel stupid for even asking this question, you would think after 16 years it wouldn't have to come down to stuff like this. 

I appreciate everyone's help.  I truly do.

[GaGrl]

... I do the JADE and SET with her (not 100% of the time, I still make mistakes in the heat of the moment). 

Can you explain what you mean by doing the JADE?

The tool means NOT to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain), so I'm confused at what you are saying.

[babyducks]

 As for the question of our wedding anniversary do I even get her anything?  

what do you want to do?     what would be best for you?   she has told you the marriage is over, why would you want to give her an anniversary present?   that is a serious question by the way... not rhetorical.     so she doesn't feel abandoned?   do you think that is what she is feeling right now?    has she said she feels abandoned?  or has she said has she felt control by your actions?    If you give her a present are you trying to control what she feels?   trying to manipulate her emotions in a way that is more pleasant for you?   is that controlling?   you asked her if she wanted anything and she said no.  why not take her at her word?

there is no one right answer.   there is no do X and Y will happen.    pwBPD are still people with all the complicated and complex experiences and emotions generated by their own unique lives.    this isn't about managing their emotions but about learning better skills/tools to allow for the potential for better communications/actions.

[babyducks]

So basically anytime my wife dysregulates we walk away?  I do the JADE and SET with her (not 100% of the time, I still make mistakes in the heat of the moment).  Next time those two get into an argument, I will just ask my daughter to come with me away from her mother. 

if your wife is being verbally or physically abusive you leave the situation calmly and carefully.      staying for verbal abuse is never recommended.

you do NOT say -  I am leaving until you get control of yourself.    that's argumentative, unnecessarily adversarial, and adds negative emotions to the already heated mix.

you should say something like - 'I don't want to argue about this -lets talk more later when things are calmer.'    or  'I am going to take a break for a little while before we both say things we regret.'    or 'I don't like how this conversation is going, I am going to leave for now'.     

GaGrl is right -   JADE means don't Justify, don't Argue, don't Defend, Don't Explain.    click on the link for more.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

this is from that link:

Most blaming statements are an announcement about a persons unowned fear.

To personalize it, we cooperate in a distorted thought process. The instinct for them is to externalize their pain, to JADE is to buy into the externalization... . the more you protest the more you are giving weight to the externalization... . that this really is about you so you must defend yourself and argue with them.

It is nearly impossible to become involved in circular arguments unless you are JADEing. The JADEing fuels the argument, and any fight requires two.

If you stop JADEing... . the fuel source is gone.

any questions about JADE?

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Sorry, I meant when she was argumentative I was not JADEing.  If the marriage is over then why won't she leave for good?  She tells me she is there for our daughter, who will not go over to her apartment yet she continues to work on the house.  My intention wasn't going to control her emotions by giving her a gift, it was just at face value.  I know I am not going to 'win' her over by trying to do something like that and could push her away.  I wasn't even going to get her anything romantic, it would be something that she could use such as a coat or sunglasses (which she loves).

Guess it just feels hopeless, I told her before that it's too hard for her to be there all the time and I need to move on but she is not listening.  At counseling when she told me the marriage is over, I told her then divorce is the next step and she got very upset.  Why be upset when she can have her freedom that she keeps saying she wants?

She told my daughter that she made a decision but won't tell her until school starts (in 3 weeks) which I find very unfair in doing that to my daughter.  She already has enough anxiety.  It's almost like she likes to watch us in anxiety or in a sense emotionally suffer like she is.

[babyducks]

 if the marriage is over then why won't she leave for good? 

feelings aren't logical Brooklyn.   feelings aren't that simple.   its possible she is uncertain about what the future looks like.     most people, BPD or not would be.

She tells me she is there for our daughter, who will not go over to her apartment yet she continues to work on the house. 

none of us are mind readers.    none of us can 'see' what is going on with your wife but lets take what she says here at face value.    She doesn't want to lose contact with your daughter.    she stays at the house so she has contact with her daughter but resents it... your wife doesn't have well developed coping skills... she struggles to problem solve ... she stays in a way because it's easier for her.

Guess it just feels hopeless, I told her before that it's too hard for her to be there all the time and I need to move on but she is not listening. 

what steps are you taking to move on?  what are you doing for yourself to move on?

At counseling when she told me the marriage is over, I told her then divorce is the next step and she got very upset.  Why be upset when she can have her freedom that she keeps saying she wants?

because it was emotional information?   because she has highly intense emotions that are difficult for her to control?    because it is scary and painful?   probably shame inducing?    she can want to be free and unhappy with that both at the same time.     

She told my daughter that she made a decision but won't tell her until school starts (in 3 weeks) which I find very unfair in doing that to my daughter.  She already has enough anxiety.  It's almost like she likes to watch us in anxiety or in a sense emotionally suffer like she is.

I thought we agreed to leave your daughter out of adult martial decisions as much as possible?     whatever happens in three weeks is just as much up to you Brooklyn as it is to your wife.     You have a role to play here.     if you feel its unfair to leave your daughter hanging for three weeks you can make any of a number of choices to resolve this sooner.   

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

It's not my fault for what she says to my daughter.  I can't be there every time they are together.  I told my daughter what your mom said was unfair and I understand that this is difficult. 

I told my wife I would never keep her from our daughter to call anytime and she can either come visit or I can meet her somewhere.  My daughter has a lot of resentment towards my wife.  My daughter feels like she just up and left.  There were many times when they would get into an argument my wife would threaten to leave.  My wife mentioned to me that I would tell her to 'leave'.  Yes, looking back it was wrong for me to say this.  I said it a handful of times over the past couple of years and it was because she would get so upset she would blurt out about a divorce.  I told her when I meant to 'leave' it was to go and cool off for a period of time like her mom's place, not to move out.  However she didn't want to hear it, guess the damage was already done.

As for the steps for me moving on, how can I do that?  I am still doing counseling, keeping myself occupied and not asking any questions about "us" to her.  I refuse to pay any of her bills and she has a court case against her due to her financials which I would have normally fixed her problem but I refuse to now. 

You talk about the shame inducing, wouldn't her moving be shame inducing in of itself? 

All I want to do is heal.  I would prefer my wife to heal with us but at this point I don't even know what to say to her anymore.

When she saw a psychologist a few years back, after she quit the psychologist told me about BPD and how she needs years of therapy.  During a session my wife was telling me she didn't love me but then after a short period of time that changed.  The psychologist told me that if I were to ever divorce her that she can guarantee that my wife would kill herself.  I don't know what was said between those two that had the psychologist give me that statement. 

I was hoping for clarity but it just seems more confusing by the day.  What they say and what they truly mean.

[babyducks]

It's not my fault for what she says to my daughter.  I can't be there every time they are together.  I told my daughter what your mom said was unfair and I understand that this is difficult. 

no it is not your fault for what your wife says to her daughter.    what I am suggesting is that you are 100% responsible for your 50% of the relationship.   what I hear you telling us is that you are waiting for your wife to make decisions or take action when you can and should be doing both.

you can make the decision to save the marriage... and work with the counselor on a plan on how to do that.

equally you can decide the marriage is not salvageable and work with the counselor on a plan on how to exit gracefully.

or you can decide that for the next six months you will pull out all the stops to stabilize the family and again... work on a plan.

any of those decision are valid.   any of those decisions are reasonable.   it depends on what you want... what you think will be best for you.

As for the steps for me moving on, how can I do that? 

this is emotional work... feeling work... thinking work and trust me it IS work.   it is just as much work as splitting firewood.   

it's the work of detaching from her emotional upheavals.. so that you don't take them personally.    its the work of deciding what is good for you... do you really want to live with a person who won't hug you?    how much does that mean to you?   can you give it up?    it's the work of either creating emotional intimacy's or repairing them.   its the work of becoming comfortable with the situation you find yourself in.

make sense?

I'm sure you have seen this link.   I'll put it in for the others reading your threads.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

 

You talk about the shame inducing, wouldn't her moving be shame inducing in of itself? 

most of what pwBPD do are frantic attempts to meet and protect their emotional needs.   and their emotional needs change rapidly.    so yes both can be true.

When she saw a psychologist a few years back, after she quit the psychologist told me about BPD and how she needs years of therapy.  During a session my wife was telling me she didn't love me but then after a short period of time that changed.  The psychologist told me that if I were to ever divorce her that she can guarantee that my wife would kill herself.  I don't know what was said between those two that had the psychologist give me that statement. 

I remember you mentioning this before.   do you believe this means you can't divorce your wife?     has your wife attempted suicide before?    do you have a suicide prevention plan with your wife or your counselor ?

'ducks

[pursuingJoy]

Brooklyn, have you checked out bpdfamily's article on the Karpman triangle?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Of the three options, can you identify the roles you're playing? Does your wife ever cast you in a different role? Based on the article, what options do you have?

[Brooklyn1974]

I want to save the marriage.  Her not being affectionate I have dealt with over many years.  Yes it gets lonely in that aspect but when she's not dysregulated she shows her love in other ways.

What is the best course of action to try and save this marriage?  The therapist told me she hasn't seen her enough to classify her as BPD even though she knows the psychologist that saw her.  Apparently she never talked to the psychologist (not sure if she even could about my wife).

I know I am responsible for 50% of the relationship and I do want to save the marriage.  However I don't want to do anything that perceives me as pushing or controlling her emotions, yet I don't want to make it seem like I am trying to force her to make a decision by saying 'out of the house'.  This is where I am confused, I need a starting point.  If I attempt to talk about the relationship to her she will get defensive.  In the past after she moved in, she became distant.  It was too much for her I guess.  She would say back then 'Let me come to you'.

She has talked about suicide and last week mentioned that she wish she could just take a bunch of pills.  I ask her how serious she is about it and she then talks about her stress at work.  She has not attempted to commit suicide but when she was drinking she blew a .27 BAC.  This was when we rushed her to the ER.  They didn't take her BAC until after 3 hours after she got there and she was on IVs, so her BAC was probably much higher.

She is on max dose of anti-depressants as well.  I remember her telling me last year that the pharmacist yelled at her because she ran out of her month supply in a two-week period.  So she was doubling her already maxed dose.

It's terms of her killing herself due to divorce, that's not the reason I want to save the marriage.  If we were to divorce and she would commit suicide, yes it would be a huge loss on my shoulders, mental illness or not.  I would always think to myself I should have done something different.  Losing her to that would be too much for me to handle.  

[babyducks]

What is the best course of action to try and save this marriage?  

okay.   I get it.

You start with a simple plan.  and understand this is a process.   you are going to have to revisit the plan and change the plan and work the plan.

here are a couple of suggestions to get your started.    tweak them.   make them yours.     

1) its very hard for my wife and I to communicate effectively.   I will work to understand empathic listening and apply it to our conversations.

2)It takes a great deal of strength to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.   I will make the following efforts to improve my emotional strength __________________________

3) trust has been damaged in our marriage... I can rebuild it by ___fill in the blank________


what would you add to those?  or subtract?      remember this is a process...   its like going to college on emotional stuff.     or learning how to play the piano... it takes practice and effort.


'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Brooklyn, have you checked out bpdfamily's article on the Karpman triangle?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Of the three options, can you identify the roles you're playing? Does your wife ever cast you in a different role? Based on the article, what options do you have?

Thank you for this.  I read it and more often than not I am the rescuer.  I often solved a lot of her problems, her mistakes but in the process I didn't look down on her but in a sense looked at her like she didn't love me or cared about the family when she would make these mistakes again.  Such as she had money issues again and I put a stop to it.  She would often steal my credit card or take cash out of my wallet after I stopped paying her bills she defaulted on (thousands of dollars).  She then took out payday loans with 700% interest.  So her $1,200 payday loan would have cost her over $10,000.  I was basically forced to pay this $1,200 off other wise this loan would have ruined me further.

In a sense I devalued her love because of actions like this.  The old saying 'Actions speak louder than words' and when she would say 'I love you', I would say 'I love you' back, however in my heart it got to the point that I felt like she didn't.  So I was also the victim.

And thank you also babyducks for helping me through this (again).  I will respond to your last post that is going to take a lot of thinking from me.

[babyducks]

Thank you for this.  I read it and more often than not I am the rescuer.  I often solved a lot of her problems, her mistakes but in the process I didn't look down on her but in a sense looked at her like she didn't love me or cared about the family when she would make these mistakes again.  

good insight Brooklyn.    that rescuer role is a tricky thing.   how do you think it looked to her?   when you came to her rescue.    do you think this reinforced the idea that she was helpless?   Not responsible for her actions?    do you think she gained or lost respect for you when you rescued her from poor decisions?

[Brooklyn1974]

At the time it was happening I am sure she respected me more when it first started years ago but then it got to the point that it was expected.  When I finally put a stop to it, she would react with threats.  Talking about this brings back not so good memories.  I offered to take control of her fiancés but she refused.  She then wanted to combine checking accounts which I would not do that.  I would be bankrupt if I did.

A lot of the arguing was over money, I rarely bought myself anything since I was paying literally all the bills and always coming to her rescue (even though she doesn't make much less than me).  I don't think she felt helpless in a sense, she did her full-time job and did a part-time job though when she was drinking all her part-time money went to alcohol.  I remember so many nights just with my daughter, taking care of the household and helping her with her homework for an hour or more each night by ourselves because my wife was basically working her full time job and 30+ hours part time.  Then to find out all that money went to her drinking. 

What's ironic is my wife is in a occupation to help others get their education, job and get on their feet. 

I always thought (prior to knowing anything about BPD) she would learn from her mistakes and would often think to myself, why would you want to sabotage yourself and your family with such poor decisions?  It's a hard question to answer when my daughter asks me why mom has made such bad choices and if mom will 'ever snap out of it' or 'get better'.

[pursuingJoy]

It sounds like you set firm boundaries around money. She got upset and she never learned to manage money, both par for the course when it comes to BPD. We have no expectation that her behavior will change.

That's a measure of success for you, though.

So how will you measure success when it comes to your daughter navigating this? What are your goals? Might help to focus on one thing at a time.

[Brooklyn1974]

That's a tough one to answer, I guess when my daughter can stop hurting but I don't see that happening for a long time.  She's afraid for her mom to even go down the street to the gas station because she either thinks she won't come back (will be gone for hours) or she uses that time to go on to her second phone to which she communicate with her ex-bf. 

When my wife left, she got a second phone (I told her I wanted to then drop her current phone off my plan, but she didn't want to) and lied to tell us this was a 'work phone'.  A couple days later while this new phone was next to my daughter, it lit up with a text message.  My daughter checked the phone and it was a message from my wife's ex-bf.

When my daughter brings up the issue or in the past I have mentioned it to her, she absolutely refuses to show us what is on this phone and gets extremely defensive.  Telling us her contact with her ex is strictly business (he owns the apartment that she rents from).  He was a thorn in my side from the beginning almost ruining my marriage during the first year. 

So it's not just her leaving, it's the circumstances that are surrounding this as well. 

Didn't mean to get off topic but my goal for my daughter would be to calm down her anxiety, however she has a lot of my traits.  I guess if I got some honest answers about the situation (if she is cheating) then it would be easier for me to move on.  My daughter wants her mom to be around but is so full of anxiety about this and my wife's responses to her seem to only make it worse.

[pursuingJoy]

Didn't mean to get off topic but my goal for my daughter would be to calm down her anxiety

This is a good goal. Part of keeping her calm is staying calm yourself, at least around her. Find places like this to vent and get support, and continue to reassure your daughter than you're there to support and listen.

Would your daughter be open to counseling as well? She could maybe use a little extra support from someone outside of all this.

Encouraging your daughter to leave the room if a disagreement comes up is another way to protect her.

Another way you might support your daughter is thinking about the agency you have in decision-making about school.  Her mom is holding her own decision hostage, but do you have to go along with that, or is there anything you can do?

[Brooklyn1974]

I have talked to my daughter about her interactions with mom.  My daughter can be very be very pushy in certain situations.  I understand where she is coming from in this situation but I have talked to her and told her to think of a thermometer when talking to mom and when you think that temperature is too high to tell mom 'I will talk to you later about this' and then leave the room.  

This weekend was interesting in a way.  Saturday morning my daughter was sleeping upstairs and my wife came downstairs.  She asked me to make her car payment that is overdue and I told her 'I understand you are under stress but that is something I can no longer do'.  She did not say anything in response.  I talked to her calmly about the apartment and asked her if she liked staying there, which she replied 'yes'.  I then asked calmly if she sees us ever being together again and her reply was 'No, I don't think so'.  So I replied with 'I understand that and want to apologize for anything I did that you thought I did to hurt you.  I understand your suspicions of control but I want you to know that it's understandable and I would not want that feeling either'.  I didn't admit to be controlling to her but I let her know that her feelings were valid (which still has me baffled because I never stopped her from seeing anyone or going anywhere) but reading up on this it's not the actions/lack of actions it's her fear of being controlled.  I also told her I accepted that you have moved on and only want the best for you.

I told her I loved her and still have open arms for her.  She mentioned she was interviewing for a part-time job (she works full-time) this Tuesday.  I told her after you get this PT job then I believe it's best that you start staying over at your apartment at night and when you want to see our daughter just let me know.  She left soon after to run errands but as soon as she left she called me about something that wasn't really important and at the end of the phone call she told me she loved me.  

Honestly I was floored.  I told her I loved her back and left it at that.  I didn't question any of it.  Later in the afternoon we were all going to drive about an hour for my daughter's school shopping and then go to dinner.  My wife was out earlier and was late coming to the house and my daughter got really down on herself.  When my wife got home my daughter was in tears and telling her mom that she didn't want to go.  My wife asked why and my daughter said 'I am done.  I am done.', my wife asked why and my daughter said 'I don't want to explain it anymore, you know why.  I can't do this anymore (as in the situation)'.  My wife then told her 'Well, sometimes in life you can't get what you want'.  I wanted to go ballistic on my wife but held it together.  I whispered in my wife's ear 'Please.. she is hurting'.  My wife then said 'Mom and Dad are fixing things'.  

The rest of the weekend went alright.  I talked to my daughter about her feelings and how these moments will pass but you are doing right by talking about them.

So I am questioning if her telling me she loves me is because of manipulation in getting her car payment made or the fact that I told her I accepted her leaving and moving on.  She did mention on the way down during shopping that her dad stopped by and was very critical about her and how he didn't even want to see her (he was working on an adjacent apartment) the other day.  She also keeps mentioning how this covid-19 stuff and her working out of the office has really messed her up.  I wonder if this virus thing has made it much more difficult for BPDs in general, more so than us Non-BPDs.  

Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.  I still will not pay her car payment though I know I will have to by the end of the month since I am a co-signer.  I am also thinking a lot about myself in terms of what the next 30 years would be like with her and without her.  I truly don't want to have to 'start over again' with someone new but I also don't want to be mistreated either.

[Brooklyn1974]

About 30 mins after I wrote my previous reply, she came in to my work with my daughter to just say 'Hi'.  Glad she came in, however it's been years since she's come to my work.