Need advice with my BPD wife

[babyducks]

That's a tough one to answer, I guess when my daughter can stop hurting but I don't see that happening for a long time.  She's afraid for her mom to even go down the street to the gas station because she either thinks she won't come back (will be gone for hours) or she uses that time to go on to her second phone to which she communicate with her ex-bf.  

it sounds like your daughter is trying to manufacture security by forcing issues.   what happens when you reassure your daughter... is she able to relax out of the adult/parent role she has adopted and be a twelve year old?

I believe your daughter is anxious and hurting because she has taken too much responsibility for the family and for her mother.    in a way she is modeling you... taking responsibility to protect her mom from her poor decisions and not able to set healthy boundaries around what should and shouldn't be up to her.

When my daughter brings up the issue or in the past I have mentioned it to her, she absolutely refuses to show us what is on this phone and gets extremely defensive.  Telling us her contact with her ex is strictly business (he owns the apartment that she rents from).

do you think your daughter should be able to scroll through her mothers phone?  do you think your wife has the expectation of privacy?

 

I guess if I got some honest answers about the situation (if she is cheating) then it would be easier for me to move on.  My daughter wants her mom to be around but is so full of anxiety about this and my wife's responses to her seem to only make it worse.

you can decide to move on and gracefully let go regardless if your wife is cheating or not.  

'ducks

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[babyducks]

When my wife got home my daughter was in tears and telling her mom that she didn't want to go.  My wife asked why and my daughter said 'I am done.  I am done.', my wife asked why and my daughter said 'I don't want to explain it anymore, you know why.  I can't do this anymore (as in the situation)'.  My wife then told her 'Well, sometimes in life you can't get what you want'.  I wanted to go ballistic on my wife but held it together.  I whispered in my wife's ear 'Please.. she is hurting'.  My wife then said 'Mom and Dad are fixing things'.  

again your daughter is acting as a buffer between the two of you, trying to 'fix' the situation,  taking too much responsibility for how the family stays together.   have you told your daughter point blank that this situation is between your and your wife ... that both of you love her, are committed to taking good care of her and want the best for her?   how does your daughter respond to that message?

So I am questioning if her telling me she loves me is because of manipulation in getting her car payment made or the fact that I told her I accepted her leaving and moving on.  

Brooklyn -   your wife has some major push/pull going on.   it's part of the illness she suffers from.    it's usually not a well thought out conscious decision or choice to either push or pull... but more a immediate reaction to intense emotions.   

She did mention on the way down during shopping that her dad stopped by and was very critical about her and how he didn't even want to see her (he was working on an adjacent apartment) the other day.  She also keeps mentioning how this covid-19 stuff and her working out of the office has really messed her up.  I wonder if this virus thing has made it much more difficult for BPDs in general, more so than us Non-BPDs.  

people with BPD have a hard time coping with stress.    they process it differently than you or I would.      additionally their emotions are 10 times more intense then ours would be... if a "non" is frustrated or irritated, a pwBPD would be angry and pushed to the brink.     if a "non" is happy and content a pwBPD would be over the moon ecstatic.   think emotions on steriods.

 I still will not pay her car payment though I know I will have to by the end of the month since I am a co-signer.  

what's your thinking here Brooklyn?   what message are you sending your wife?   where is your boundary?    I understand you don't want the ding on your credit record but I am suggesting you consider not rescuing your wife on this one.     protecting her from the natural consequences of her actions is not helping her.    protecting her from the consequences increases the codependency of the relationship.   

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you.  I reassure my daughter that I love her and that it's not her responsibility.  I stress this to her.  I won't tell her that her mom loves her.  I was told by the psychologist to never do this, especially in times of crisis that was brought upon by my wife.  Doing this will give my daughter the idea that love equates this bad behavior.  I tell my daughter that mom is currently not well and she thinks and feels differently than we do.  

Honestly I try to keep my daughter out of this as much as possible but she has experienced so much with her mom, it started back last year when my wife was drinking basically 24/7 and the abnormal behavior really intensified.  IMO it's also the responsibility of my wife to show my daughter consideration and comfort.  She was able to do this many times before, though that's before my daughter caught on to the things my wife has done.  When I try to reassure my daughter that these bad moments will pass, she doesn't say anything.  She has gotten upset with me because I have told her to let me lead the way and she has made comments such as 'You tell me that you are taking care of this but mom is still the same way'.  I then remind her that mom has a responsibility in this as well, that I am trying the best I can.

Yes my wife does have major push/pull issues.  Along with that, the impulsiveness are the biggest traits in her.  This puts me on eggshells.  Waiting for either the next financial issue to pop up or for the next attitude towards me.  

I won't pay her car payment, I asked her Sunday if she could pay it this week and she told me she didn't think she could.  I won't offer to pay it.  It's going to suck because my credit score is going to get hit.  

So you are saying her emotions are going to be a reaction to mine in a sense?  If I show all happiness then she will follow that?

Do you think it's advisable for me to tell her what the psychologist told me about the her matching the traits of BPD?  She does not know that.  I heard that telling a possible BPD this it not advisable but perhaps it would put her on a path of recovery and explain why she feels the things she does. 

[babyducks]

 When I try to reassure my daughter that these bad moments will pass, she doesn't say anything.  She has gotten upset with me because I have told her to let me lead the way and she has made comments such as 'You tell me that you are taking care of this but mom is still the same way'.  I then remind her that mom has a responsibility in this as well, that I am trying the best I can.

it sounds like your daughter is intelligent and overly mature for her age.   how is she doing with the counselor?    has your daughter made any connection with the counselor?

So you are saying her emotions are going to be a reaction to mine in a sense?  If I show all happiness then she will follow that?

No.   Not really.    I am saying that the Covid pandemic is stressful.   it's bothering everyone.    there is a lot of upset in the community.   a lot of troubling things going on.    I am saying if you feel annoyed with the pandemic, if you find it bothersome to try and grocery shop and get toilet paper, she is going to feel that much more intensely than you do.   many of the members here report their SO's are having serious problems handling the pandemic.

Do you think it's advisable for me to tell her what the psychologist told me about the her matching the traits of BPD?  She does not know that.  I heard that telling a possible BPD this it not advisable but perhaps it would put her on a path of recovery and explain why she feels the things she does.  

My two cents is I would say No, don't tell her.    for a couple of reasons.   first a BPD diagnosis has a stigma associated with it.    depending where you are its looked down on ... heck even if you google you don't have to go far to read some truly terrible stuff.   people say and think rotten things about BPD.

 second,... once receiving a diagnosis of BPD its fairly typical for the person to really act out.    along the lines of "oh I have this terrible mental illness... I'll show you how sick I really am".     BPD is a disorder of shame... being labeled with a shameful diagnosis can wreck absolute havoc.

third,.. if the P didn't tell her it could raise all sorts of trust issues... "OH the psychologist told you something he didn't tell me?   you were ganging up on me."

if you want to discuss this with her,   I would say stick to talking about symptoms... it seemed to me you were less sad when you saw the psychologist ...  or you did so good with psychologist,... your stress levels were a lot lower then ...  

if she is willing to talk about certain symptoms or things that are bothering her stay within that framework.    

She has talked about suicide and last week mentioned that she wish she could just take a bunch of pills.  I ask her how serious she is about it and she then talks about her stress at work.

did you redirect her to professional help during this conversation?   you want to take any mentions of suicide seriously.      you want to validate that its okay to feel overwhelmed... we all feel overwhelmed ... and you want to encourage her to seek help for overwhelming feelings...

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you again for the excellent advice.  The counselor only saw my daughter once and she recommended that we keep her busy and she wants to focus on boundaries.  I've been keeping my daughter very busy (swimming with friends, dance camp, etc..) but at the end of the day when mom is home she is faced with it.  I've been trying my best to keep her talking and to let her know that it's my responsibility to deal with this. 

I did tell her that there are two things I would do for her.  First, to do everything possible to help out mom and to keep the family together and second to always tell her the truth.  However I also told her that mom has a responsibility as well and she has choices that only she can make.  I reiterate to her that we are a team (not just in this situation) but overall.

The counselor is writing a letter for my daughter to allow her dog to be an emotional support animal.  She's extremely attached to her and so glad she has her by her side.

I noticed my wife having an extremely hard time with this pandemic.  She always has the news on and I encourage her to change the channel.  Honestly I stopped watching the news due to all the negativity.  It's like this pandemic has brought the worst out in her.

I will follow your advice in regards to her BPD.  When I first talked to her about counseling I mentioned the psychologist however she said she wanted to start new with someone else.   It seems a lot of these marriage/family counselors don't have a deep understanding of BPD and just want to work on 'communication'.  I try to stress to my counselor that this 'communication' is different due to her BPD.  However she told me she has not talked to my wife enough to consider BPD.  It's frustrating because even though the counselor knows the psychologist she cannot talk to her about it due to privacy laws.  She's only talked to my wife twice.  I don't feel like I am really getting anywhere and honestly the advice you are giving me is working.

As for her talk of suicide I do take it seriously.  Every time she mentions something like that I offer to get her medical help.  She refuses.  I need to remember about validating her being overwhelmed in general.  I also have been picking up visual cues from her and ask her how she is doing when I see certain looks on her face. 

[once removed]

my heart breaks for you and your family.

in every family, there is good and bad triangulation. bowen talks about practical examples here: https://thebowencenter.org/theory/eight-concepts/

it sounds to me like your daughter is an only child. im an only child. in my case, when my parents had conflict, i was either not involved at all, or i was something of a "peace maker" or i was what the Karpman Drama Triangle describes as a "rescuer", actively taking one side, or pulled to one side, or pushed against one side.

my parents never divorced, but a child experiencing a potential divorce absolutely rocks her world. reactions can be totally all over the place. it doesnt surprise me that shes giving mom the business here, as much pain as she is in. this speaks to the family dynamic, her relationship to her mother uniquely, and a childs way of coping.

how to navigate this is incredibly hard. you are all playing a long existing role. you cant control what your wife is doing, you cant control what your daughter is doing, you cant control the two of them having conflict, and realistically, you cant entirely avoid being in the middle of it all. it is as much a reality now, as it was before.

the karpman drama triangle is a spin off from bowens description of triangulation in families, that further describes the dynamic when two people are locked in conflict (rather than "plain" triangulation) and involving another party, from which point, a series of triangles can form.

the way off of the karpman drama triangle is to move to the center. it is to stay outside of the series of triangles that have formed, and focus on the origin, in a centered, mature, and self aware way.

its hard to know (if possible) what exactly the origin is here. but seeing this play out very differently is something all of you have an interest in now, and in the future, whatever happens.

lets go back to your original post.

"i didnt have to" is stonewalling, and it comes from a person who, at least for now, is done with the relationship, done with rehashing the conflict from the marriage (or at least that particular conflict).

in this case, pushing for explanations doesnt help; its seen as needy, and the person on the receiving end will have the tendency to stonewall. explanations can likely be found through sober and critical examination of your marriage, but even if she were willing, your wife would likely only be able to give you a piece of the puzzle at best, that would make more sense to her than you. it will hurt, but it will help, enormously, to heed these signals. it will look strong.

case in point, the argument about her coming and going at the house: telling her that you would have a hard time not being romantic toward her, is going to be perceived by her as needy. from her perspective, it sounds like youre not accepting the breakup. on some level here, and to what extent it isnt clear, shes trying to send a fairly cold message: accept it, get over it.

whether she has accepted it and gotten over it herself, or is primarily trying to send a message, is not clear. unfortunately, these things happen. a person that initiates a divorce or separation often feels conflicted at some level.

but the bottom line is that shes trying to drill that wedge between you, likely in order to feel a level of independence. the hardest, but probably most constructive thing to do, is let her have it.

on the other hand, not wanting to sort of share a home under these circumstances is really valid. it sends mixed signals to both of you, and to your daughter. in these times, its not terribly safe either!

that may or may not be the hill to die on at this point. at this point, you can either find a place, push for some level of visitation between you, which would significantly rock the boat and may backfire, or you can tough it out, and make the best of a bad situation (probably the way i would go).

but you really need to be actively trying to make the best of that bad situation. its going to require making hard choices that are not instinctive, and may even feel counterintuitive.

all may not be lost here. are the two of you still in counseling?

[babyducks]

really really great post from once removed.   

I am just going to pick up on one part of what he wrote.

"i didnt have to" is stonewalling, and it comes from a person who, at least for now, is done with the relationship, done with rehashing the conflict from the marriage (or at least that particular conflict).

in this case, pushing for explanations doesnt help; its seen as needy, and the person on the receiving end will have the tendency to stonewall. explanations can likely be found through sober and critical examination of your marriage, but even if she were willing, your wife would likely only be able to give you a piece of the puzzle at best, that would make more sense to her than you. it will hurt, but it will help, enormously, to heed these signals. it will look strong.

case in point, the argument about her coming and going at the house: telling her that you would have a hard time not being romantic toward her, is going to be perceived by her as needy. from her perspective, it sounds like youre not accepting the breakup. on some level here, and to what extent it isnt clear, shes trying to send a fairly cold message: accept it, get over it.

once removed really nailed it.   focusing on the origin of the family conflict in a centered, mature, and self aware way is the way forward.    being too needy is something we have all done in BPD relationships.    pushing too hard for our SO to respond to our needs. to provide explanations.    to see our point of view.

you mentioned your wife takes antidepressants and is known to abuse the prescription.    who provides the RX for her?   has she expressed any interest in going to that provider to talk about her medication and maybe changing it up or getting additional support?

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for the advice.  As for the triangulation then can you give me an example of what I should be doing?  I don't talk about the relationship with my wife (talked to her briefly on Saturday) but before that we only talked about it at counseling.  I see the counselor today, the counselor did not reach out to my wife.  I asked for another appointment. 

If she's done then why did she say 'I love you' the other day?  Slip of the tongue?  A few weeks back I told her that staying at the house would be a problem for me because I would pick up on things like that and it would give me hope.

I'm just so exhausted.  Emotionally exhausted.  I told her and accepted that she's gone, that's when she told me she loved me.  She hasn't said it since and I have not said it to her.  Even if she does come back there really is no empathy in her, at least not for me.  I'm getting to the point of why even bother anymore.  I am just torturing myself by allowing her to stay at the house and with her cheating in the past it bothers me a lot about her and her ex-bf.  I don't bring it up but I did tell her I won't pay the car payment, the bank called yesterday.  If it hits my credit, so be it.  It's insulting that she gives her ex-bf $500 a month for rent and wants me to pay her $300 car payment.

Her Dr. is a quack.  It's the same doctor that misdiagnosed my brother when he had cancer.  Had he not get a second opinion, he would not be here with us.  When she is off her medication it really shows.  If I try to talk to her about it, she gets defensive. 

I don't even know what choices to make anymore.  There is no instruction book that comes with these sorts of situations.  I mentioned to my daughter about mom staying overnight at her apartment but told her she could visit anytime, my daughter's response was that she then would want to live with my folks, that she is not taking sides.  I reassured her that I was not doing this to hurt her and I did not want her to take sides.  So it's a no-win situation for me.  Either I let my wife stay at the house and be cold to me and play the 'we are not a couple anymore' card or I have my daughter upset with me that I am pushing her mother out.  It gets depressing.

[babyducks]

  As for the triangulation then can you give me an example of what I should be doing? 

lets break this down into small pieces to make it easier to handle.   Okay?   let's start simple.    lets say there is a family unit of three people... and the family unit is experiencing growing tension.    the stress in the family unit is increasing.  once the tension gets too high each of the family members will reach for other triangles to help stabilize.   

so in your example you could reach for a counselor... to help stabilize you and your connection to the family unit.    you could reach for assistance at BPDfamily website... a place where you can share your thoughts and express your feelings, receive some validation... not all triangulation is a bad thing.     your wife might be balancing the tension by being overly involved in her work...   

did you happen to read the link Once Removed attached?    what did you think of it?   it shows examples of reaching for triangles and how many there can be.   how they all interlink... and how some can be less than healthy.

If she's done then why did she say 'I love you' the other day?  Slip of the tongue?  A few weeks back I told her that staying at the house would be a problem for me because I would pick up on things like that and it would give me hope.

you seem to feel that your wife operates with a great deal of clarity about what she feels and thinks.    this is unlikely to be the case.   BPD is a serious mental illness.   it's called borderline because its on the 'border' between neurosis and psychosis.    those terms are outdated now.    the point being that there is a tremendous emotional instability.   

I'm just so exhausted.  Emotionally exhausted. 

I'm sorry Brooklyn.   I truly am.   I know this is very hard.    Can I ask what you are doing to take care of yourself?    Are you eating?   real nutritious food?  sleeping?   getting any exercise or time to yourself?

[once removed]

If she's done then why did she say 'I love you' the other day?  Slip of the tongue?  A few weeks back I told her that staying at the house would be a problem for me because I would pick up on things like that and it would give me hope.

this is a little bit like being in a poker game and playing all your cards.

youre telling your wife "im confused" (your cards) and your wife is seeing your bet and saying "im more confused".  and in turn, youre more confused 

i didnt say your wife is done. i said that she, at various times, is trying to signal that she is. shes playing her cards. to complete the metaphor, rather than calling her bluff, youre slamming your cards down, and shes raising you every time.

now is simply not the time to telegraph your needs to your wife, as impossibly hard as that may be. now is the time to let her play her cards and hold your hand. she says she loves you; see this as her own confusion, rather than asking her to unconfuse you.

i dont mean to torture the metaphor. the point is that you have to separate your suffering and neediness from her suffering and neediness (they are competing) and find clarity, and show strength. resist the urge to react every time she does something confusing.

the key to all of this is learning to read her. your emotions and reactions are clouding your ability to do so.

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for the help.  I've been trying to not let her know how confused I am, though this Friday is our 16th anniversary.  The weekend went smooth we actually all had a good time.  Though today the text messages start because of her car payment that is 3 weeks past due.

Though I am the co-signer I am still holding strong in not paying it.  She wants me to 'loan' her the money until she starts her part-time job.  Which working it will affect my daughter greatly, though I will once again take care of my daughter and the house while she is living her 'single' life.

I did read the link, thank you.  I am set on my goals but allowing my wife to 'come to me' but for the right reasons.  I don't want her back in the house unless she 'wants' to want to come back as a family and at least right now I don't see that happening.  It's too hard for me for her to basically live there and not show me any emotions towards me.  I have told her this in the past.  I think I am going to have another talk with her tonight.

[Brooklyn1974]

She went into rage mode last night and I think I handled it well due to all of your great advice.  She was suppose to pick up my daughter at her sis-in-laws at 4:30pm, that's when I get off of work.  She has been very late almost every time she's suppose to pick her up.  I tried calling my wife and did not get an answer.  I then went and picked up my daughter myself, since my sis-in-law had other plans.

Did not hear from my wife until after 5pm so I called.  I told her that I picked her up and feel that she should have let us one of us know if she's going to be late.  She was two-hours late last Friday in getting her without a phone call or text from her.  She went into rage mode.  Saying again that I am controlling and she should not have to contact anyone and that she was working and not doing anything wrong.  I tried to explain to her that she has been constantly late and that it's common courtesy to let either me, our daughter or who ever has her if you are going to be late to send a simple text.

It was met with profanities and constants 'I don't understand'.  I'm thinking how could you not understand this?  However I remained quiet on the phone while she continued to yell and scream like a 5 year old.  She then said she was throwing her phone in which she did.  She had me on speaker so all I told her was that until you calm down it's best for you to stay at your apartment.  She came 3 hours later and actually apologized.  Honestly this was the first apology I got from her in many years.  She then said she needs to do a better job at being there to pick her up.  From the time she raged until she got to the house it was like two different people.  I'm just glad I was not there in person when she raged, those can get very scary.  I am also glad she was able to calm herself down on her own.

I believe the car payment issue is getting to her.  She said she was going to ask her mom for the money (which I highly doubt she will give her) and even tried contacting a car dealer to buy her car without any plan on what she would do without a vehicle.  I just didn't reply to that, considering I am on the loan she would need my signature which I would not give.

I have an appointment with a lawyer Sept. 1st which I am keeping.  My family is upset with me, recommending that I don't make the payment.  The only reason I would is because of it hitting my own credit.  Though she would have another payment this coming Sept. 6th.

I am starting to give up hope that this is recoverable.  The counselor did not contact her for an appointment and her lack of empathy is really getting to me.  Her lack of empathy has been going on a many years and I know it's not something I can get her to do, she's not capable of it.  I try to do as much as I can to take care of myself but it's difficult living your life with someone that doesn't show love (in a way that us Non-BPs need it). 

[pursuingJoy]

She went into rage mode last night and I think I handled it well due to all of your great advice. 

I agree, Brooklyn! You stayed calm and held a boundary. Nicely done.

My family is upset with me, recommending that I don't make the payment.  The only reason I would is because of it hitting my own credit.

I agree with your family. I think you're sending a message you don't want to send if you make the car payment. I've been there. My ex and I shared a consolidated student loan that he didn't pay anything on. It hurt my credit. And he eventually learned I was serious and started paying. And my credit recovered.

I am starting to give up hope that this is recoverable. 

I don't think I've heard you say this, it feels like a big step. How are you feeling about this?

[once removed]

know that you are dealing with someone who is highly sensitive, both in general, but particularly to criticism.

know when to start, and know when to quit.

Did not hear from my wife until after 5pm so I called.  I told her that I picked her up and feel that she should have let us one of us know if she's going to be late.

this is reasonable.

Saying again that I am controlling and she should not have to contact anyone and that she was working and not doing anything wrong.  I tried to explain to her that she has been constantly late and that it's common courtesy to let either me, our daughter or who ever has her if you are going to be late to send a simple text.

this is probably the time to gently exit, and revisit it later.

She came 3 hours later and actually apologized.

it is far more constructive to deal with someone who has reached their baseline and cooled off. with bpd traits, you tend to get an initial over reaction, and then a return to baseline, with a lot more openness. when someone is angry at you, saying "all you had to do was send a text" may be perceived as condescending, and throwing fuel on the fire. when someone comes to you saying i lost my cool, i need to do better, saying "i know things come up. if they do, just shoot me a text" is far better received.

its the same message, but its all about gauging the temperature.

[Brooklyn1974]

I don't think I've heard you say this, it feels like a big step. How are you feeling about this?

Honestly I don't think I can do this anymore.  I don't think I have what it takes with all of it.  Last night was awful.  My daughter came home upset and my wife told me that she saw a text on her 'second phone' from her ex-bf.  She went to AA and when she came back I told her I wanted to talk to her privately.  I asked her about this text, she told me he was just joking with her.  I mentioned to her that you told me that you would keep this strictly business but it's a lot to handle knowing he is over at your place every so often.  She kept saying she doesn't want him, however the counselor told me her saying she wants out of the marriage could be her way of justifying her testing the waters with him.

She then quickly went to the car payment, I told her I was not paying it.  She said she didn't want it hitting her credit, I told her that it's her responsibility to cover her bills.  That she has another one due on the 6th as well.  It then turned into a relationship talk where she continued to bash me, saying I was 'stand offish' when this pandemic started and that she doesn't trust me anymore.  Her saying when she needed me the most I wasn't there.  Now, I never ignored her but she was not that talkative to me and she never came to me and told me that she is having major issues with this.  Her response was that she didn't have to and continued to lash out.

She continued to say that she just wants to be 'friends' and that she needs me to be a friend and to be stable for our daughter which means she continues to stay the weekends and stay overnight.  I asked her about the 'I love you' comment the other week and she said she 'screwed up' and tells all her friends she loves them.  I told her that I have had enough and that I don't want her staying at the house anymore.  I need to move on with my life, which she responds that, that is 'my problem' and I should be able to separate my emotions while she is there.  

I can't do it anymore.  I feel used, betrayed, extremely depressed and lonely.  For her to think she should be able to stay as a family (she actually said we are still a family), me pay her bills while she continues to what I believe is test the waters with him is insane.  She actually said 'he changed' and she trust him more than me.  So I know there is more than just 'business talk'.

Came inside, my daughter talked to her and my wife said she could look at that other phone anytime she wants (though she deleted all his messages after my daughter saw the one text) and that this pandemic has taken it's toll on her.

I live a few hours from Ocean City, MD. and thinking next month of going by myself for the weekend.  I need to get out of there.  I can't handle being crucified every so often.  Thing is before her blow-up on Monday, we haven't argued at all.  I told her it's too much for us to act this way and then every so many weeks remind me of how you don't love me.  It's mental and emotional torture.  The house was bought before I met her and in my state it's not considered community property.  She's laying a guilt trip (the FOG) about me making her car payment and allowing her to stay there.  How can I handle this?  Any advice?  

I thought I would have a better handle on this but the emotional side is getting to be too much.  She told me anything she did before March (the pandemic) doesn't count and she's using from March to May as her guideline for what she's doing.  Needless to say for years I have helped her out financially along with her taking money without my approval (probably to the sum of 25-30k), cheated, emotionally and verbally abused me, she has gotten physical in the past as well.  Not to mention her drinking and admitting to driving drunk with our daughter in the car.  None of that can be brought up, it's focused on me and my reaction to not just the pandemic (there was a good chance I could have lost my job) but also she believes I am the one that is going to make her start drinking again.  I told her that she cannot put that on my shoulders.  It just seems hopeless.

[babyducks]

Hi again Brooklyn.

Honestly I don't think I can do this anymore.  I don't think I have what it takes with all of it.

it is a given that our relationships are very challenging.   from what I have read here and what my experience has been, its very hard to maintain a stable relationship with people who have the traits of this disorder.   the constant push/pull, the outbursts of rage take a toll on the best of us. 

 however the counselor told me her saying she wants out of the marriage could be her way of justifying her testing the waters with him.

I know that must have been difficult to hear.     what do you think?    is that likely?

She then quickly went to the car payment, I told her I was not paying it.  She said she didn't want it hitting her credit, I told her that it's her responsibility to cover her bills.  That she has another one due on the 6th as well.  

the advice usually given here is NOT to save them from the consequences of their behavior.  I would encourage you to hold the line on this.    Changing now would send a horrible mixed message, that I think you should avoid.

It then turned into a relationship talk where she continued to bash me, saying I was 'stand offish' when this pandemic started and that she doesn't trust me anymore.  Her saying when she needed me the most I wasn't there.  Now, I never ignored her but she was not that talkative to me and she never came to me and told me that she is having major issues with this.  Her response was that she didn't have to and continued to lash out.

this is likely projection Brooklyn.    ever hear of it?   here is the technical description of projection:

Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others. It incorporates blame shifting and can manifest as shame dumping.

she is projecting behavior she is uncomfortable with onto you.    who has been emotionally missing from the family ?   and has been for some time?

 I told her that I have had enough and that I don't want her staying at the house anymore.  

I take it the house is in your name alone and predates your marriage?    Here is my suggestion.   Wander over to the Family Law, Custody, CoParenting, Custody board.   Spend some time reading and posting there.   Those members are truly battle field experts and have seen everything.    they are full of very helpful tips.

I can't do it anymore.  I feel used, betrayed, extremely depressed and lonely.  For her to think she should be able to stay as a family (she actually said we are still a family), me pay her bills while she continues to what I believe is test the waters with him is insane.

pwBPD believe that their wants/needs come first and foremost.   and that our wants/needs only matter if they somehow support or match theirs.    pwBPD have to come first,... that is how they survive the catastrophe of their illness.

 

   She's laying a guilt trip (the FOG) about me making her car payment and allowing her to stay there.  How can I handle this?  Any advice?  

you are going to have to protect yourself legally and at the same time protect yourself emotionally.   

see a lawyer.   visit the Family Law board.     think about what it would take to evict her, if she won't go willingly,  make elaborate legal plans and hope you never have to use them.

and protect yourself emotionally.  take that time off.  go away.  be good to yourself.     make sure you are eating and sleeping and handling the stress as best you can.    continue to see the therapist no matter if your wife goes or not.    do it for you.

[Brooklyn1974]

I know that must have been difficult to hear.     what do you think?    is that likely?

I think it is.  When she was messing around last year she would use the old phrase "He's just a friend" just like she is now.  This would be the deal-breaker for me going for a full-on divorce.  He's always been a thorn in my side. 

the advice usually given here is NOT to save them from the consequences of their behavior.  I would encourage you to hold the line on this.    Changing now would send a horrible mixed message, that I think you should avoid.

I am trying my best.  She mentioned that if I didn't help she would be forced to do something "drastic" but didn't say what it was. I told her that I am tired of feeling like being used and often when she would be "extra nice" to me in the past it was usually due to her needing money.  I just worry that my daughter won't have reliable transportation when her mother has her.  She mentioned selling the car and buying a junker or going around to borrow other people's vehicles.

this is likely projection Brooklyn.    ever hear of it?   here is the technical description of projection:

Yes and read up on it more today after your post.  It's beyond frustrating that I feel hopeless in this.  From what it seems like there is no way for them to even remotely think that their actions could have caused all this chaos or what they can do to fix it. 

pwBPD believe that their wants/needs come first and foremost.   and that our wants/needs only matter if they somehow support or match theirs.    pwBPD have to come first,... that is how they survive the catastrophe of their illness.

She believes her sobriety comes above everything else including me and our daughter.  She blames me for her wanting to drink again and just uses that as a grounds for her decisions.  She goes to AA but does not participate.  She has gone through 3 sponsors, all blaming them for her either dropping them or them dropping her.  She also blame any work issues on others as well.  Last night I tried to explain this to her and I also asked her 'How much stress is self-inflicted?'  She was like a deer in headlights, didn't respond to it.  Guess in her world stress is only caused by others and not by the things she has done.

I am just tired of the 'he/she' did or said that sort of thing.  My intentions were to heal and have her do the same along side me.  She asked me last night why would I even want to stay with her and honestly besides her projecting on me she does have a good heart and I can see she does have good intentions.  She does want to better herself but I feel that blaming me and others for her failures is not a good starting point. 

I told her I miss the affection, the love, the sex, etc.. It's something that I need in life.  As much as I love her it only does me harm while she is there and I cannot show her any of that and worse yet not get anything like that in return.


 

[babyducks]

  My intentions were to heal and have her do the same along side me.  She asked me last night why would I even want to stay with her and honestly besides her projecting on me she does have a good heart and I can see she does have good intentions.  She does want to better herself but I feel that blaming me and others for her failures is not a good starting point. 

for me, my experience, my Ex was/is a terribly bright, energetic, fun loving person with many amazing qualities.   talented.   engaging.    but self destructive in ways that were subtle and hard to understand.    I would still be with her, fighting for her and the relationship if there was any way to possibly do it.    what it seemed to me was the healthier I got... the better I got at boundaries and validation and fixing my own issues the more she pushed me away.     self destructive in truly sad ways.

how are you today?  how are you feeling?

[Brooklyn1974]

Feeling?  Very lonely.  Depressed.  Especially since tomorrow is our wedding anniversary.  She was out all night, I locked the front door when I went to bed.  She didn't come to the house until midnight and knocked on the door, my daughter let her in.  She didn't say anything to either of us.  Wouldn't answer her phone when my daughter called and just told her that she was with her dad.

She was telling me yesterday (she was with my daughter the whole day) that our daughter was acting up and causing her stress.  I didn't respond to it and it wasn't until my daughter talked to me to tell me that I guess earlier in the day my daughter keeps asking her about the situation (the apartment, etc..) and what would it take for you to come home and be a part of the family.  Apparently my wife told her yet again that she just considers me a 'friend' and that 'Dad needs to change his attitude'.  So more projecting but it's to my daughter. 

I had a long talk with my daughter and told her that this issue is between mom and me, and that mom's head is still very confused.  What got me was that my daughter said 'Mom is just like her Dad, her Dad is miserable and is so selfish.  Unless mom gets help she's going to end up like her father'.  My wife seems to be following the emotional dysregulations of her dad more and more.

I have another appt. Tuesday with the counselor, she mentioned my wife has one next week as well.  I thought I had strong shoulders but after this it seems to be really weighing me down.  All my wife did yesterday was tell me how stressed she was about our daughter, her work, the car payment and her court date tomorrow.  Again didn't even ask me how I was or how my day went.  I would think even with their illness they would think to themselves "Wow, I am being heartless to him".  What bothers me a lot is that I haven't had a hug from her in years, though I am sure when her ex comes over she's probably right there to greet him with one.  Maybe I am starved for affection, I don't know.

[babyducks]

these are very difficult and painful relationships we find ourselves in.    they are not like normal relationships. 

 

  I would think even with their illness they would think to themselves "Wow, I am being heartless to him". 

pwBPD do not have a lot of empathy.    they aren't wired to understand the feelings of others.    especially in times of stress.

who do you have in your life that can help support you now.   family?   friends?   

[Brooklyn1974]

I do have family and friends and thank God for them, though they don't know what BPD really is and just label my wife.  I have an appointment with the counselor tomorrow, trying to get my daughter to go but she is refusing.  Waiting on ideas from the counselor on how to get her there willingly.  My wife still fails to acknowledge that my daughter acting out has anything to do with her leaving.  Before this happening in June, my daughter was a bright and happy little girl.  My parents were going to take her to see other relatives that she adores for labor day weekend and she doesn't even want to go to that. 

My wife still insists that her being there is making things more 'stable'.  It's not.  When I talk to the lawyer I am going to see how that process works.  Apparently my wife has an appointment with the counselor as well this week.  She is still focused on the car payment that I still refuse to pay.  She asked last night and I told her 'Well, you only consider me a friend so I never loaned a friend over $500'.  No response from her.  I asked her if she was late on any other bills and she replied no.  I then told her she could have been late with the rent payment or another bill, to use me because I was a co-signer is disrespectful.  I still believe she is testing the waters with her ex.

My daughter starts school on Wednesday so I don't know how that is going to go she usually gets great grades.  My daughter told me that she can't seem to stop thinking about it (what mom has done and is doing) even when she is at her dance classes.  I told her about the help out there and that she needs to take it so it can help you through this.  She is still refusing.  My wife tells my daughter that 'me and dad are working things out' and 'she has to think about the apartment', which is just confusing my daughter and frustrating her.

From my emotional point of view, I lost my wife.  She is a different person.  She raged on me last night over how I didn't wash the one cup the correct way and heard about it for 15 minutes.  I just sat there until I got to the point that I told her 'enough'.  It's like she picks out every little thing to justify her erratic behavior. 

[babyducks]

I have an appointment with the counselor tomorrow, trying to get my daughter to go but she is refusing.  Waiting on ideas from the counselor on how to get her there willingly. 

hmmmm.  do I understand that it is your daughter who is refusing to go to the counselor?   did your daughter say why?

My wife still fails to acknowledge that my daughter acting out has anything to do with her leaving. 

of course she is.    Once Removed was correct when he said your wife is highly sensitive and highly sensitive to any (perceived) criticism.    I am not saying its okay.   I am saying your wife has to view things that way.

My daughter starts school on Wednesday so I don't know how that is going to go she usually gets great grades.  My daughter told me that she can't seem to stop thinking about it (what mom has done and is doing) even when she is at her dance classes.  I told her about the help out there and that she needs to take it so it can help you through this.  She is still refusing.  My wife tells my daughter that 'me and dad are working things out' and 'she has to think about the apartment', which is just confusing my daughter and frustrating her.

I'm sorry to hear your daughter is struggling so hard with this.   is there a family friend,.. member of the clergy.. school counselor that your daughter knows and would feel comfortable talking to?

From my emotional point of view, I lost my wife.  She is a different person.  She raged on me last night over how I didn't wash the one cup the correct way and heard about it for 15 minutes.  I just sat there until I got to the point that I told her 'enough'.  It's like she picks out every little thing to justify her erratic behavior. 

its called devaluation.    if you devalue something, or someone its easier to discard it.   I never really liked that sweater anyhow... I don't mind I left it at ballpark.    Brooklyn doesn't wash cups correctly...  he's not good enough for me.   its another defense mechanism.

have you visited the family law board yet?

[once removed]

not everything that your wife accuses you of is a case of projection.

this relationship is broken, has been for a while. inherently, both of you are going to have times, moments, where you look to times in the marriage and say "thats where things went bad". both of your perspectives are likely to differ.

thats kind of a mute point if you are all in on exiting your marriage. it will serve you later on in the detaching process, but more in terms of what you want to take into future relationships.

i dont sense that you are at the point of ending the marriage. i sense that you are feeling the loss of your wife and building up your defenses.

the bottom line here is that your wife doesnt respect you. i imagine thats hard to hear. its hard for me to type.

the solution to all of this is not making her respect you; she will or she wont. the solution to all of this is living in a way where you respect yourself.

if your self respect tells you that this relationship is over, then so be it. dont confront her about texting other men. dont share a house with her; move out if need be. commit to it being over, take the steps necessary, and grieve the relationship. let the fights go.

if your self respect tells you that you want to remain married, commit to a new, very different, fresh approach.

im sorry youre in this position at all. i know none of it is easy.

[Brooklyn1974]

That's the thing.  I still want to be married to her but I don't know the approach to take.  For example she now started a part-time job (along with her full-time job).  She still comes to the house but it's at 10:30pm.  My daughter is asleep.  I told my wife that if she leaves this job that late then to stay at her apartment but she won't.  I still refuse to pay the car payment.  I am slowly gaining respect back for myself but as my counselor said yesterday the more limitations I enforce the more she is going to push away but from what I read on here and other sites that's something I need to do.  My counselor told me I need to find ways to stop being a doormat.

She mentioned that my wife still needs me emotionally and financially.  My wife has a session with her on Friday and finally the counselor said that she can now see traits of BPD in my wife, especially with the leaving but still staying overnights & weekends.  Also her saying she just wants to be 'friends' but to continue to want to live as a family, along with her separation of emotions.

I saw her for like 30 minutes last night, she didn't say much.  This morning all she was talking about was her part-time job last night (was her first night) but my daughter and I just stayed quiet.  We were more focused on her first day of school.  I did tell my wife that she won't see our daughter much (she's working 35 hours part-time plus her full-time job) and all she told me was to "keep positive" and to give it a chance, that it will all work out.  I know it won't, it works out for my wife and her wants but my daughter was just so down and out last night.  My daughter believe she is doing this to continue to live at the apartment.  It really doesn't matter anyways because even if she didn't have that place that doesn't change her 'feelings' for me.

I told the counselor I still want to be married but not to the woman she is now.  I want my old wife back, the one that actually smiled and enjoyed our presence.  All she does now is talk about how stressful everything is, including us.  You are correct she has no respect for me and it's why I am stating these limitations.

[babyducks]

Hi Brooklyn

That's the thing.  I still want to be married to her but I don't know the approach to take. 

the approach to take is to focus, concentrate on yourself and your comfort.   I know that sounds backwards.   I know that sounds counter intuitive.  but its true.

the more you are secure in yourself.    the more you are secure in your abilities and self worth, the better you will feel.   the better your feel, the more confidence you possess the more attractive you become.

For example she now started a part-time job (along with her full-time job).  She still comes to the house but it's at 10:30pm.  My daughter is asleep.  I told my wife that if she leaves this job that late then to stay at her apartment but she won't. 

this is a circular argument.    neither one of you can force the other to do something or stop doing something.  you are just going round and round having the same argument.     stay at the apartment.   I won't.   and around it goes again.   don't have circular arguments.   they don't help.

if you are going to draw a boundary, you have to be able to hold and enforce it.   if you really want her to stay at the apartment... this is really something you are 100% certain of how can you evict her from your house?  do you really want to change the locks and take legal steps?

you can't force your wife to stay at the apartment.   what you can do is say ... if you come home at 10:30 don't expect to wake me or our daughter... I won't get up to let you in or anything else.   and then do what you said you were going to.
consistently do what you say you were going to do.

I did tell my wife that she won't see our daughter much (she's working 35 hours part-time plus her full-time job)

did you think your wife didn't know this?    of course she knew she wouldn't be seeing you or her daughter much.   its probably why she is doing this.  whether its a conscious decision or not is debatable but no one with that schedule is going to be home much.

we talk here about radical acceptance.   acceptance does not mean agreement.    it doesn't mean going along with.   acceptance means to experience without defense or distress.   if you can accept that right now your wife can't be with you in the way you want... you can move forward to find things that work better for you.

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Saw the lawyer he basically said that I cannot legally force her out even though her name is not on the deed.  I would have to goto the court to get some sort of order that would prevent her from being on my property.

She continues to come over late at night.  I have expressed to her that this is not acceptable.  I have the locks changed however my daughter would let her in.

She is still working 35 hrs PT and her full 40 hr FT job.  I asked her what her intentions were Friday night since she works late and then works early the next morning.  Her reply was 'Why do you keep asking me?  Why can't you just let things go right now you are too worried about the relationship, I am here just focus on that.'  I replied to her that 'I do have feelings and this has been going on for 3 months and it's something I cannot continue.'.  In her mind she believes this is normal behavior and it's not.  I am sleeping upstairs and she's sleeping downstairs.  Had no affection from her since February and she continues to have this second phone.  She tells me her ex is just a 'family friend' and nothing is going on.  My gut feeling is that this is a lie.

The lawyer told me that with her mental illness that I need to tread very carefully in regards to her and the house.  I am going to contact my counselor today. 

As this drags on it's just getting more depressing.  I can't mourn the marriage when she's there and she refuses to even talk to me about the relationship or us.  It's like I am stuck in a place of despair.  She had a counseling session last Friday, don't know what was said but whatever it was it does not seem to be making any difference.

[Brooklyn1974]

Guess even the counselor is giving up.  This was her last email to me:

"Continuing sessions would really depend on what your goals are right now. I think if there is no clear plan about what you and she want from this relationship we will continue to go around in circles in sessions."

I have expressed to her that "My goal is to mend the family again, to find out why she has done all these impulsive things and to eventually live a happy life with her.  She continues to believe what is happening is 'normal'."

I was somewhat hopeful since my last session with her the counselor said she has traits of BPD. 

Just seems hopeless.

[pursuingJoy]

we talk here about radical acceptance.   acceptance does not mean agreement.    it doesn't mean going along with.   acceptance means to experience without defense or distress.   if you can accept that right now your wife can't be with you in the way you want... you can move forward to find things that work better for you.

I keep coming back to what 'ducks said. Mending requires two parties. If one party isn't interested, fully mending, to the degree that both parties are satisfied, isn't possible.

You have the option of accepting this arrangement as a new normal. It isn't ideal, and will take some time to process, but it is an option. You've chosen to go down the path of seeking legal advice and changing locks. You can choose to continue down this path.

Either way, accepting the reality that your wife is in a different place than you are will give you clarity about what your next steps should be.

This is all very painful and I'm sorry you're going through this.