Successful boundary setting with MIL Part 2

[pursuingJoy]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this discussion is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345548.0;all

Oh boy...I'm so...so sorry you are having to navigate this.

Thanks FF.  

How has this discussion played out in counseling?  

Are you "allowed" to reject his feelings?   (we all know the real answer here...feelings are what they are...but I'm hoping a skilled counselor might be able to guide him)

He wouldn't be happy about having his feelings rejected but he understands that by "disagreeing," or rejecting mine, he logically has to give me permission to the same. Not that I do. Feelings are feelings, like you said.

"Oh..that's just the way PJ is."  (said very nonchalantly...no judgment)

In fairness to him, it's possible he has these conversations with his mom privately.  He may even defend me at times. Telling me that would feel like he was betraying his mom, so I won't hear about it. He doesn't relay their conversations to me at all.

I wish it were as simple as the peeing example. The issues stem from historical lack of boundaries between them, and their express rejection of future boundaries. I ask him not to share intimately personal information with MIL because she tells everyone everything. He does it anyway. I find out, he justifies and says I just don't like MIL and I'm overreacting.

The bar is conditioned to be so low that when it comes to asking him to either address or support me in addressing a rude comment about my cooking, for example, he (willfully or not) doesn't see it. He tells me I'm overreacting and (knowingly or not) gaslights by saying, "I promise, if I saw anything happening, I would absolutely speak to my mom and defend you." I want to believe him but we've been married 7 years and he has yet to speak up to MIL, even when she called me by his ex-wife's name for a year and a half.

It's pointless to talk to him about this. I mean that very matter-of-factly. There's still some pain I need to work through, but what I'm committed to now is living out and acting on what I know to be true.  This will sometimes mean setting boundaries with MIL even if he gets angry and doesn't support. It also means a measure of relief for him because I'm releasing him from expectations he can't meet, and I'm not harping on something he can't change.   It also means finding sanity and support here and lots of self-care.

[formflier]

I wish it were as simple as the peeing example.  

I realize that it's not that simple and I'm also suggesting you make it that simple for him, counselors and everyone else.  (maybe read that a few times)

pwBPD love to complicate things...so the real issue gets lost.  They have handed you a gift to simplify it...use it..without apology.

And there is truth in it..right?  I mean...is there any reason to discuss how conversations go with MIL in your house when she visits...if "peeing in private" hasn't been solved?

Big breath.  I'm not suggesting the other stuff doesn't matter or perhaps even matter more to you that peeing in private.  What I am suggesting is that is such a clear cut example..it's succinct.  

We also know that dealing with "peeing in private" successfully would enable the other stuff to be dealt with because of the associated discussions with boundaries and if "they" tried to undo it, they would look so silly (and you should let them)...that their arguments would implode onto them.

Imagine them saying..

"Ok ok, we'll allow you to pee in private...but Mom get's to (fill in the blank)"

Switching gears.

Has the "peeing in private" thing been talked through in counseling?

What about telling you that feelings are wrong?  

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I know it takes time to sit down and write out what you're going through, so thank you. Something about the way you approach your MIL and H captures exactly how I have felt navigating my relationships with SD23 and H. It is so meaningful to hear your story  

Why did I ignore that and go back for the funeral?

I have similar thoughts when these family gathering choices are presented.

Do you go because you want to demonstrate that you are capable of being reasonable (in light of H's beliefs that you are not)? Sort of "See, this is how reasonable I am. I can put someone else's needs first. I value our marriage, therefore I will honor this."

Or do you go because you are curious, and want to gauge progress setting good in-person boundaries? Kind of like, "Phew, I can manage this structured positive interaction and I expect I'll do ok. Let's see."

He's told me that unless I'm planning to "let this go," it would be better to not have a relationship with her.

Wow. That is fascinating. And quite an ultimatum. Is it a bluff?

(Also, I'm assuming he means it would be better if you did not have a relationship with MIL...) Do you think he is saying that in sort of a catastrophic and/or manipulative way? "See what you did? You broke this. Now I have to take care of mom on my own."

Or do you think he is being defeatist ... "Look, I know this thing with my mom is weird. But I can't have you shining light on this weirdness. It's easier if I just have a secretly weird relationship with her like we used to, where no expects change from me."

If you didn't have a relationship with her, what do you think his relationship with her would look like? And what would it look like with you? How would you feel if you weren't invited to funeral/wedding/birthday, etc.?

Walking in on me peeing is the only thing he will admit is "a little weird. But that's just mom."

Your MIL and SD23 went to the same school of no boundaries  .

H responded in a similar way when I expressed distress about SD23 walking into my bedroom and bathroom (he both acknowledged it as weird and downplayed it).

For me, it falls into the quasi-spousal role that SD23 seeks to have with H. More on that in a second.

What he rejects is that I feel unsafe when she is here. I share this feeling with him, he disagrees and rejects it as false

This is also getting into territory that has been completely commandeered by his mother. She feels unsafe. She needs rescuing. She needs his protection. She is the victim.

You cannot win a pissing match with a skunk  

Also, this is classic end game stuff for pwBPD. The whole point is to drive a wedge into your marital relationship. Pointing to your own sense of victimhood draws you deeper into this, and it's a game she designed, with rules she invented. She's going to win every time you step foot on that field.

Are these conversations you have with your H, or is this what you study and understand to be true, and relate accordingly?

I used to discuss directly with H and it was largely ineffective. Live and learn! I used to speak in paragraphs to him. Now I speak in one or two sentences, followed by actions. No JADE.

What do you see in your H and SD?

Initially, too much touching. Fortunately, H admitted he was uncomfortable with some of the touching. That's what initially got us into the counseling session (with a child psychologist and my T). They helped him find language and actions to neutralize those behaviors.

The underlying pathology is still there, though. It shows up in covertly aggressive ways that could pass for normal but not when you consider the whole of her behaviors. Like asking him to teach her to cook so she can stand right next to him at the stove. The hugging, my god the hugging. Drives me nuts.

I've made some headway highlighting that his mom is 73, we are adults with steady jobs, and we shouldn't be relying on his aging widowed mother for money.

I admire you for catching that and holding your position.

They kiss on the mouth.

Sigh.

With SD23, it is (was ...) hand holding, chronic and sometimes aggressive hugging (not letting him get away), standing awkwardly close to him even in social settings, tugging on his sleeve in social settings or when he's talking to me, wanting to sit next to him, walking into our bedroom/bathroom, lying on our bed. It's not sexual or provocative, it's more like a territorial way of being near him.

How is SD23 coping since you moved? Has there been talk about her moving out there to be near you?

I don't ask. I wait for H to share if he wants to, and probably not surprisingly, the less interested I became, the more he shared. H presents a rosy picture of how she is doing but from time to time I will be helping him with something on his phone and there will be 30 text messages in a row from her. It's always a crisis. There are a lot of these crises.

I made the decision about a year ago that it's best if I don't text with SD23. When I receive something from her, I'll respond with a positive emoji, thumbs up, smile, etc. Texting with is exhausting. I'm almost guaranteed to do or say something that gets blown out of proportion. She has complained that I don't respond right away, or that I don't respond period.

I just shrug and chalk it up to different generations, different styles of communicating.

My stomach muscles tense up and I feel my heart racing. I feel weight on my chest that makes it hard to take deep breaths. I don't sleep well. I feel hyper-alert. How did you know to ask?

You mentioned not feeling safe. I feel that way when SD23 comes to visit. I even feel it when she texts H and I'm nearby. Her texting patterns are very distinct. No one texts him dozens of bursts in rapid fire like that. It makes my heart race.

For me, this was important to recognize because it validates my own experience. My body is signaling that someone/something is trying to breach the perimeter.

These feelings also, in a more primitive way, go back to childhood. I had to compete for scarce resources in my family of origin. This is the piece I own and work on. It's how I was able to shift away from focusing on what H was doing and instead look at what I could do, and it's simple enough. The goal is to feel safe.

Over time, if I shared how I felt about this with H, and he didn't help, it made me feel doubly unsafe (e.g. he is not protecting me, I am not worthy of protection, our marriage is at risk, I made a mistake, etc.).

A turning point for me was treating H as a proxy for SD23. I don't trust her, so when it comes to H/SD23, I do not share as much. I say less and do more. That's safer.

It's pretty small stuff to be honest. SD23 sets up scenarios where I'm in a one-down position and they're very covert and hard to address. It's part of struggling with BPD, I think. She has to test the waters constantly to see if H will choose her over someone else or something else that has captured his attention. If he chooses her, she gets a hit of reassurance. Then it's gone in a blink and she's working on the next hit. It's not really personal tho it certainly felt that way in the beginning.

I worked with a therapist to list these small-scale interactions that seemed to have an outsize impact on my nervous systems. I learned to boil things down to a sentence or two and then share with H (rarely if ever with SD23). "Please do not invite me to go for a walk with you and SD23 when she is here. I will say no and that'll put you in an awkward position if she asks why. I'll feel compelled to answer honestly."

I think this is called minimizing the target   A smaller bulls-eye is better. Less is more.

It might be what FF is getting at when he talks about simplifying things?

There is something about the wedge in the marital relationship that is part of the drama, and I am working as best I can to acknowledge that while still focusing on my safety.

[formflier]

I think this is called minimizing the target   A smaller bulls-eye is better. Less is more.

It might be what FF is getting at when he talks about simplifying things?

Pretty much yes...that's what I had in mind.

I do think LnL is perfect for this thread in so many ways.  I did kinda remember the bedroom thing in LnL's story, but didn't remember any details...like if she barged in when LnL was neekid or something (Southern term if you are curious...).

The theory is all the same but the fact that someone walks in on you brushing your teeth..yet fully clothed, versus peeing or (some other similar activity)..just doesn't have the same "punch" to it.

Especially when you lay that next to the response "Kinda weird..but that's just Mom"

There really is no "kinda" in this...

And to my point about keeping it simple..yes less is more.  There also is the thought that unless peeing is solved..none of the rest matters.

I mean think about it.  Let's say there is a 100% guarantee there are zero weird comments...perfect boundaries..she brings gifts..she compliments food..expresses appreciation for being a good wife to her son...etc etc etc...but she still demands "all pee access"...would you then feel safe having her in your home?

I suspect not.

FYI...I've been voluntarily estranged (my choice) from my wife's family for several years now.  A couple years of NC and now there is limited texting, usually about logistics of moving people and kids around.

It was a bit awkward for the first few months...then I realized how much more relaxed I was..then I embraced it. 

My reasons don't really parallel this thread...but at a high level view,  I don't get the family dynamics and the randomness of the outbursts are weird. 

Anyway..I say that to assure you there is life after estrangement and don't be surprised if they pick the option of keeping weird a secret and letting you do your own thing.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

The primary commitment in marriage is that your partner is now primary. Fortunately, my parents modeled that for me, and my husband and I model it for our children. All decisions begin with our marriage.

I'm not sure if your H's protestations of protecting you would hold up to making an admission that your marriage is a priority over his mother.

Especially if she can't even respect basic bodily function boundaries. (I'm with FF that making some points about boundary busting start here.)

If you say something like, "MIL was clear she didn't want a relationship with me. I find it confusing that she now apparently does want a relationship. Here's what I can do based on her previous behavior toward me -- it protects my privacy, my self-respect, and our marriage."

And if he/she should reject that as YOU not doing enough work to make it okay with MIL, are you willing then to continue not having the relationship? Who really loses here? Not you.

[formflier]

Here's what I can do based on her previous behavior toward me -- it protects my privacy, my self-respect, and our marriage."

 

I wonder if adding "for the benefit of our marriage..this is what I can do."

Note I didn't say for the benefit of "you" (to the hubby).

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I wonder if adding "for the benefit of our marriage..this is what I can do."

Note I didn't say for the benefit of "you" (to the hubby).

Best,

FF

Yes, that works better! Put the marriage up front.

[pursuingJoy]

Has the "peeing in private" thing been talked through in counseling?

It might help to clarify that while she did walk through my bedroom and bathroom on numerous occasions, walking in while I was peeing and talking to me was a one time thing. This behavior wasn't repeated. It was addressed in counseling and H conceded that it was 'weird.'

Aha moment. I watched a tv show last night when one of the characters did this to another as a display of power. Y'all, I really think it was a power play for her.

When we talked about this in counseling, H started stories about how his family just didn't really care about stuff like that, it was normal. I think he was trying to justify or explain "how his mom is just quirky that way." I remember wondering how many times his mom violated his personal space as a kid, if he ever felt free to ask her to stop or give him privacy, or wondered if it was normal. If nothing else comes of this, I hope I can model that it's ok to say no to her. Because ew.

FF, I can understand the logic in simplifying, and your point that BPD's complicate things to distract is so true. Do you mean that I should refer to this example, that he's already agreed is 'weird,' to provide reference? Something like, "When your mom shares personal information with her sister about our finances, she violates my boundaries. That makes me feel unsafe, like the time she walked into the bathroom."

I know it takes time to sit down and write out what you're going through, so thank you. Something about the way you approach your MIL and H captures exactly how I have felt navigating my relationships with SD23 and H. It is so meaningful to hear your story  

We do have a lot in common, lnl.   You are very welcome, and thank you, because a number of times in this thread, you've made comments that just make sense and turn a light bulb on for me.  

Do you go because you want to demonstrate that you are capable of being reasonable (in light of H's beliefs that you are not)? Sort of "See, this is how reasonable I am. I can put someone else's needs first. I value our marriage, therefore I will honor this."

Or do you go because you are curious, and want to gauge progress setting good in-person boundaries? Kind of like, "Phew, I can manage this structured positive interaction and I expect I'll do ok. Let's see."

Yes to all of the above. I'm invested in proving I'm not a hateful person, and also intentionally putting myself into safe, but uncomfortable situations to stretch my ability to send boundaries.

I guess what I can't figure out, though, is why I dismissed her saying she didn't want me to visit her house. No one takes her up on her words. We assume she's always bluffing. What would happen if a BPD threatened with a statement like that and we actually took it seriously? What if, when she said "I don't want her to visit again," I actually didn't, simply because she said it? Is there a time to take them at their word? Wouldn't this be a way to assert boundaries? Just throwing this out there. I've been conditioned by her too...I guess I want to continue unraveling that conditioning.

(Also, I'm assuming he means it would be better if you did not have a relationship with MIL...)

100%, he means that I shouldn't have a relationship with her.

At first I thought it was manipulative, a threat, but the more we talk, the more I realize he really means it. So maybe it's more defeatist? He genuinely believes that his mom is old, there is no point to putting her through the pain of boundaries, she won't change. He cannot handle the thought of her being in pain.

I also think the shame of facing his enmeshment is driving some of it. He isn't ready to face it.

If you didn't have a relationship with her, what do you think his relationship with her would look like? And what would it look like with you? How would you feel if you weren't invited to funeral/wedding/birthday, etc.?

At first, because she suspected it was about power, I was advised by the therapist to visit and show up as an assertion that I was his wife. T felt that completely disappearing may affirm MIL's position as primary.

Currently I don't have a relationship with her outside of him, and a few visits to her house. She was obsessed with me at first, now she acts like I don't exist. They talk every day. They seem fine. I'm ok too.

H will probably continue to invite me, just to be polite/do the 'right' thing, but he also knows I may decline. Over lunch today he told me he wants us to take his mom to the beach, just to get her out of the house. (Eye roll. I should have seen another boundary pusher coming.) My heart immediately took off racing . I stayed calm and kept washing dishes and said, "I'm not ready to spend an extended time with her. You guys should go, though. I know she'd love it."

I dropped it for a bit, then casually brought it back up, steering it back to the idea of taking his kids and mom to the beach, leaving me to spend the weekend doing something special with my girls. I said, "Your mom needs to get out, I'm sure she's feeling cooped up. This would give you alone time with her and your kids, and I know my girls would love to do something fun with me."

He agreed. So far, so good. No drama, just regular blended family compromise and planning.

To be honest, I don't care much anymore. If they want to carry on without me, so be it. The only way he will ever come to the end of his rope is if he reaches his limit. I have to stay out of the way for that to happen.

This is also getting into territory that has been completely commandeered by his mother. She feels unsafe. She needs rescuing. She needs his protection. She is the victim.

You cannot win a pissing match with a skunk  

lolll pissing match with a skunk. You are SO RIGHT. ugh. What was I thinking? I thought I could take her on?

Pointing to your own sense of victimhood draws you deeper into this, and it's a game she designed, with rules she invented. She's going to win every time you step foot on that field.

Again, you nailed it on the victimhood game. An aha moment for me was learning here that when I felt powerless, I was in victim mode. I've spent a lot of time thinking about the agency I have. It helps me problem-solve creatively, and I step outside of the traps she lays.
 

I used to discuss directly with H and it was largely ineffective. Live and learn! I used to speak in paragraphs to him. Now I speak in one or two sentences, followed by actions. No JADE.

Same. I was curious to know if your H was open to the conversations.

Initially, too much touching. Fortunately, H admitted he was uncomfortable with some of the touching. That's what initially got us into the counseling session (with a child psychologist and my T). They helped him find language and actions to neutralize those behaviors.

Well good for him! That's a significant step. I'm really glad he admitted his discomfort!

The underlying pathology is still there, though. It shows up in covertly aggressive ways that could pass for normal but not when you consider the whole of her behaviors. Like asking him to teach her to cook so she can stand right next to him at the stove. The hugging, my god the hugging. Drives me nuts.

Yup. Wow do I get this. My MIL did it to me, too. Back when she thought I was the bees knees and "the only DIL she'd ever liked," my MIL would follow me, waif-like, around the house. I'd be in the kitchen, she would stand at the counter and silently watch me. No conversation, and conversations I would start would peter out. She might say, "So you're peeling potatoes?" I'd go up to my room, and she'd follow me into my room. She NEVER went downstairs, so I tested her one day by going downstairs...she followed me and just stood there. It was weird. H didn't understand how I got so annoyed with it.

It really leaves you powerless. What she's doing is harmless, after all? I think it's indicative of BPD's lacking identity and confidence, and fearing abandonment, but it's annoying.

With SD23, it is (was ...) hand holding, chronic and sometimes aggressive hugging (not letting him get away), standing awkwardly close to him even in social settings, tugging on his sleeve in social settings or when he's talking to me, wanting to sit next to him, walking into our bedroom/bathroom, lying on our bed. It's not sexual or provocative, it's more like a territorial way of being near him.

Your description of it as something not so sexual, but more territorial, is absolutely spot on and relatable. It is still pretty cringey.
 

I made the decision about a year ago that it's best if I don't text with SD23. When I receive something from her, I'll respond with a positive emoji, thumbs up, smile, etc. Texting with is exhausting. I'm almost guaranteed to do or say something that gets blown out of proportion. She has complained that I don't respond right away, or that I don't respond period.

Smart move.

For me, this was important to recognize because it validates my own experience. My body is signaling that someone/something is trying to breach the perimeter.

I love the way you put this. Thank you!

Over time, if I shared how I felt about this with H, and he didn't help, it made me feel doubly unsafe (e.g. he is not protecting me, I am not worthy of protection, our marriage is at risk, I made a mistake, etc.).

Yup. I totally understand.

A turning point for me was treating H as a proxy for SD23. I don't trust her, so when it comes to H/SD23, I do not share as much. I say less and do more. That's safer.

Yup. I fought accepting that I couldn't share as much. Openness equals intimacy, and I value that in a marriage. Not sharing as much felt like I had to violate my value.  It was really hard to accept that I couldn't share important information with H.

I try to focus on the end goal. Some things it bothers me not to share. I'm careful about my health, my money, my mental health, my daughter's mental health. MIL has a big mouth, and H refuses to filter what he shares. I also remind myself that some of what I was doing, was JADEing, and that's not healthy. Married or not, I'm responsible for managing my emotions.

I still have mixed feelings about the not sharing as much part.

It's pretty small stuff to be honest. SD23 sets up scenarios where I'm in a one-down position and they're very covert and hard to address. It's part of struggling with BPD, I think. She has to test the waters constantly to see if H will choose her over someone else or something else that has captured his attention. If he chooses her, she gets a hit of reassurance. Then it's gone in a blink and she's working on the next hit. It's not really personal tho it certainly felt that way in the beginning.

Yeessss. The covert one-down position scenarios, testing the waters to see if he'll choose her. You are so right, it isn't personal. It can do damage, though.

I worked with a therapist to list these small-scale interactions that seemed to have an outsize impact on my nervous systems. I learned to boil things down to a sentence or two and then share with H (rarely if ever with SD23). "Please do not invite me to go for a walk with you and SD23 when she is here. I will say no and that'll put you in an awkward position if she asks why. I'll feel compelled to answer honestly."

Love the idea of breaking up my big feelings into small, actionable pieces.

There is something about the wedge in the marital relationship that is part of the drama, and I am working as best I can to acknowledge that while still focusing on my safety.

Thank you for just stating the obvious about the point being to drive a wedge in the marital relationship. It always irked me that the T never got there. I knew it was true. Hearing you say it is very validating.

How are you working to acknowledge the wedge in the marital relationship?

Also, can I just point out that distance is helpful, but it's flabbergasting that someone who lives far away can so heavily impact my marriage.

[pursuingJoy]

The primary commitment in marriage is that your partner is now primary. Fortunately, my parents modeled that for me, and my husband and I model it for our children. All decisions begin with our marriage.

I'm not sure if your H's protestations of protecting you would hold up to making an admission that your marriage is a priority over his mother.

Totally agree. These conversations with him become circular and gaslighty. He insists he has the same values and is upholding them. I share an example of how he's not, he says he disagrees.

Especially if she can't even respect basic bodily function boundaries. (I'm with FF that making some points about boundary busting start here.)

Right? So, H agrees that his mom doesn't have the greatest boundaries. He doesn't think her behavior causes damage. I don't know if that's because he's used to it, or scared to face it? I'm becoming more and more convinced that unless he accepts the harm it's caused him, he won't be able to accept the harm it's caused me. I'm on my own here.

Also, he flatly refuses to set firm boundaries with her, especially if they're on my behalf. He verbally gives me permission to talk to her and set boundaries, but when I do, and she gets hurt, I become the target of his verbal assault. By doing this, I also put myself in the position of aggressor again. It's a lose lose for me.

My very official cost benefit analysis says I have little to gain by trying to get support from him, or by verbalizing boundaries to her.

And if he/she should reject that as YOU not doing enough work to make it okay with MIL, are you willing then to continue not having the relationship? Who really loses here? Not you.

Good point, GaGrl. I am at a point where I'm ready to accept that I won't have a relationship with her, maybe adopt FF's approach and stay estranged. I'm sad but relieved. And I have a little clarity. 

[GaGrl]

Good processing work here, tough as it is. Whew!

I think you're close to a resolution for yourself, if not exactly a way to handle it with your H.

So...

MIL said she didn't want a relationship with you.

MIL said she didn't want you in her house.

You are accepting that what MIL said was indeed what she wanted. Done.

Now MIL (and H) indicates she/they have changed their mind about having a relationship, preferably on their terms.

You are not confident that allowing MIL in your house and having a relationship is safe for you, because she violates boundaries.

You prefer not to have a relationship with MIL and let your H and MIL work through their enrichment issues without triangulating you in power plays.

You accept that your H must do this work before the overall family dynamics can change. That may or may not happen any time soon.

Does that about sum up where you are now? I know it sounds simplistic, but trying to clarify.

[pursuingJoy]

You nailed it!  I really do feel some relief. Thanks to all of you for being here, giving me space, and valuable feedback. 

[curious quandary]

Wow, great discussion here. So many good questions and suggestions. I'm learning a lot just being a fly on the wall.

PJ, it's great that you're sticking to your guns! I recently read in “No Guilt, No Games, No Drama: The 7 Keys to Setting Smarter Boundaries” that you shouldn't “offer a compromise when you know that its limits won't be respected.”

Your boundaries, words, and discussions with your H are clearly well thought out. You're caring and empathetic while still looking out for your needs. You're a great roll model for us newbies.

Yes your H is clearly extremely enmeshed and doesn't fully realize or accept that this is an issue yet. Give him time and keep working at it. Asking him how HE feels, brilliant!  Absolutely brilliant.

As someone who is enmeshed (and working to change this) I understand what it's like to be oblivious and in denial, to be terrified of anger (anxiety goes into overdrive like my life is in danger), to be completely caught up in the emotions of others like it's an absolute unquestionable obligation, and to not know my own needs and yes even feelings. When that's all you've known it takes a lot of outside influence to realize that something is wrong. Even then there is shame and embarrassment around the whole thing. 

Livednleaned nailed it: “I take care of you so I am safe.”

[Mata]

Wow, great discussion here. So many good questions and suggestions. I'm learning a lot just being a fly on the wall.

I wholeheartedly agree.  This discussion has been really insightful, and helps me think about my issues with my BPDmom from my H's perspective. 

[pursuingJoy]

curious quandary and Mata, hearing that these experiences are helpful to you is someaningful. Thank you for sharing that. 

PJ, it's great that you're sticking to your guns! I recently read in “No Guilt, No Games, No Drama: The 7 Keys to Setting Smarter Boundaries” that you shouldn't “offer a compromise when you know that its limits won't be respected.”

Good find! I like this!

to be terrified of anger

I'd be really interested in learning more about this. Would you be open to starting a new thread about it?

Livednleaned nailed it: “I take care of you so I am safe.”

This is soo intense. I cannot imagine the pressure you, my H and others are under...to consider that your own emotional safety is at stake just feels so unfair.

I wholeheartedly agree.  This discussion has been really insightful, and helps me think about my issues with my BPDmom from my H's perspective. 

Mata, this definitely goes both ways. I'm so thankful that some of you with BPD parents are willing to share your thoughts with me. Where else am I going to get that kind of insight into my H? It's made a big difference in my growth and understanding. 

[livednlearned]

I'm invested in proving I'm not a hateful person, and also intentionally putting myself into safe, but uncomfortable situations to stretch my ability to send boundaries.

Do you get positive feedback from H for this? If not verbally, does he sort of acknowledge the effort you make, maybe with greater affection/intimacy?

What would happen if a BPD threatened with a statement like that and we actually took it seriously?

I think it would depend entirely on how your H responded and handled things? Do you find that a lot of your positive outcomes depend on small nuances in communication (and action)?

I was advised by the therapist to visit and show up as an assertion that I was his wife. T felt that completely disappearing may affirm MIL's position as primary.

That's great she gave you that advice.

I was surprised the degree to which these relationships are expressed as turf wars. But if you treat the turf war like nonsense, then next thing you have a boot print on the back of your head.

I stayed calm and kept washing dishes and said, "I'm not ready to spend an extended time with her. You guys should go, though. I know she'd love it."

  so smooth. The easy-breezy boundary  

To be honest, I don't care much anymore. If they want to carry on without me, so be it. The only way he will ever come to the end of his rope is if he reaches his limit. I have to stay out of the way for that to happen

This is very validating for me to hear. I'm in the same place after 8 years. It doesn't hurt that we're now 3000 miles away in the midst of a pandemic. I imagine that it's the presence of her in your house where you draw the line, and everything else is becoming a bit of a shrug?

Or maybe marriage counseling keeps some of this more in the forefront. We have moved on from counseling and are flying solo for now.

I was curious to know if your H was open to the conversations.

Not really. Like you describe with H, there is something extraordinarily uncomfortable in that relationship so it's not his favorite topic, at least in terms of inspecting it more closely  . As I've become more adept and skilled, I think what we're doing is developing mutually respectful ways of handling my boundaries.

my MIL would follow me, waif-like, around the house. I'd be in the kitchen, she would stand at the counter and silently watch me. No conversation, and conversations I would start would peter out. She might say, "So you're peeling potatoes?" I'd go up to my room, and she'd follow me into my room. She NEVER went downstairs, so I tested her one day by going downstairs...she followed me and just stood there. It was weird. H didn't understand how I got so annoyed with it.

This is exactly SD23. Did you ever directly address with MIL what she was doing?

I discussed some things directly with SD23, like coming into my room. But she came back with excuses for why she might need to, and eventually I began to lock my bedroom door if I wanted privacy. I don't know if that's an avoidant way of dealing with the problem but I was able to calm myself down and relax. There were a few occasions when I restated that there is no reason for her to be in my bathroom. I was able to be direct and firm but inside I was seething.

What she's doing is harmless, after all? I think it's indicative of BPD's lacking identity and confidence, and fearing abandonment, but it's annoying.

Beyond annoyance, though, I found it personally invasive and it eroded feelings of being safe in my own home. I started to put on headphones when I was cooking and would do some easy-breezy boundary stuff to carve out space for myself when I couldn't get it physically. It's one of the reasons I am already getting worked up about her next visit, which she brought up yesterday. I had a sixth sense it was coming.

How are you working to acknowledge the wedge in the marital relationship?

We kind of don't verbalize it, at least not openly. I got better at taking care of me and he got better at containing SD23. That might change with this impending visit because we're in new terrain (smaller house, longer time between visits, expense to travel, etc.)

When we lived closer I did find a workable balance between calling the shots on my participation while also signaling my primary place in the marriage (and house).

I guess you could boil it down to something like "H, please do/don't do ______. I will feel compelled to ______ and that may be uncomfortable for you." This got tested our last visit and we survived. I'm working on expressing how I'll be handling my boundaries in an almost businesslike way. I sometimes imagine H being in mind-meld with SD23 which is a cue to present the boundary to him the way I would to her. Discussing it will only widen the wedge.

can I just point out that distance is helpful, but it's flabbergasting that someone who lives far away can so heavily impact my marriage.

Is it because families work like an emotional unit? I feel the same way. I am embarrassed how much space SD23 rents in my head.

[formflier]

So...I'm fascinated by watching the two stories that track so similarly.

It seems like LnL has followed much the same journey, but perhaps is a bit further down the road or perhaps has dealt with this longer.  (accurate observation?)

Here is what I think would be very insightful and helpful for each of you.

How did you sort out that it was best to steer clear of a situation, let's say back out and let them have time alone (and be blissfully unaware) and how did you guys determine it best to have some amount of closeness.  (I see this as a spectrum because sometimes you guys are in the house, yet have chose to be distant)

What lessons have you learned in the past and how do you look to the future to determine the amount of distance.

For instance, LnL has a visit coming up (and it sounds like a smaller house) soo...what are the plans for distance and what lessons from the past are really influencing the current choice.

I'm convinced tons of people are benefiting and will benefit in the future from this!

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Do you get positive feedback from H for this? If not verbally, does he sort of acknowledge the effort you make, maybe with greater affection/intimacy?

Nope. Nothing. In therapy, counselor asked how the Christmas visit made me feel. I voiced that I was proud of myself for taking steps to visit her, speak to her first, initiate a hug, bring Christmas dinner. He had a blank, almost confused look on his face. I could tell he was thinking. He heard my words. He understood them. He didn't say anything and he couldn't feel appreciation for my efforts, because MIL had told him she was unhappy. My efforts didn't achieve what he thought was the goal - to make her happy. It makes sense.

Thankfully, I didn't make these efforts for him, but because it was the right thing to do, so his lack of appreciation didn't hurt my feelings. I felt good about what I'd done.

Do you find that a lot of your positive outcomes depend on small nuances in communication (and action)?

If you're asking about nuances in my communication effecting positive outcomes, not really? My MIL comes locked and loaded with preset notions. It doesn't hurt if I'm friendly, positive and make small talk, but does that alone account for a positive outcome? Nope. 99% depends on how she's feeling.

Negative outcomes? Here, nuances are everything. If she's feeling anxious or down, the smallest inflection or look will send her over the edge. Kind of like a teeny bit of invalidation can create a lot of damage in one fell swoop, while it takes consistent validation to build up any version of positive interaction.

Is that what you meant?

I was surprised the degree to which these relationships are expressed as turf wars. But if you treat the turf war like nonsense, then next thing you have a boot print on the back of your head.

You are the first person I've heard describe this as a turf war, and it's such a relief. Please tell me where to find these people talking about turf wars

so smooth. The easy-breezy boundary  

Heh heh  

This is very validating for me to hear.

I'm glad to hear you feel validated. You should. You've put a good deal of hard work into your marriage and into your relationship with SD23. I know that the distance is nice, but visits will have to be reconfigured some. You can do this too.

I imagine that it's the presence of her in your house where you draw the line, and everything else is becoming a bit of a shrug?

Pretty much. This is the acceptance stage, right?

Thankfully, I believe they are also in the process of accepting that she will not live with us. Until last year I had no idea how badly she wanted to live with us.

Or maybe marriage counseling keeps some of this more in the forefront. We have moved on from counseling and are flying solo for now.

Same boat here. We tried telehealth sessions but our last one was absolutely awful. We haven't been back since, and honestly, in some ways it's forced us to figure it out ourselves. It wasn't a bad kick in the pants. We're ok for now.

what we're doing is developing mutually respectful ways of handling my boundaries.

Uggh yes perfect way to say it.

This is exactly SD23. Did you ever directly address with MIL what she was doing?

I discussed some things directly with SD23, like coming into my room. But she came back with excuses for why she might need to, and eventually I began to lock my bedroom door if I wanted privacy. I don't know if that's an avoidant way of dealing with the problem but I was able to calm myself down and relax. There were a few occasions when I restated that there is no reason for her to be in my bathroom. I was able to be direct and firm but inside I was seething.

I'm particular about my space being my space, I would have absolutely locked the door. Our kids know to knock and wait for an answer. If the door is already open they will sometimes just walk in, and it irks me - even when my own kids do it. I so get it.

I never brought this up with MIL. At that time, I tried to run things through H first. (I read somewhere that you should let your spouse handle their parents, and I think I knew instinctively that it wouldn't go over well if I talked to her.) He just got annoyed at me.

Soo that was when I asked him to stay present when she visited. As much as he loves his mom, he used to disappear a few minutes after she arrived for a weekend visit. He'd be playing video games with his son, outside mowing, weed eating, fixing the car. It was weird. I pointed it out, he denied doing it, but thereafter, he stayed present when she visited.

It's one of the reasons I am already getting worked up about her next visit, which she brought up yesterday. I had a sixth sense it was coming.

Game on. Of course you knew it was coming. You've got this.

When we lived closer I did find a workable balance between calling the shots on my participation while also signaling my primary place in the marriage (and house).

Yeah the 'asserting primary place' - I did not do this. I did not recognize the full on turf war until last year. I came into it with 'respect your elders, she's aging, she's your MIL, she's older, wiser, blah blah.' I say blah blah, and I shouldn't downplay it, because I was trying so hard to do the right thing. I just had tunnel vision.

I'm working on expressing how I'll be handling my boundaries in an almost businesslike way. I sometimes imagine H being in mind-meld with SD23 which is a cue to present the boundary to him the way I would to her.

This is a solid plan and I'm stealing it. Are you open to letting her stay with you, or in a hotel? What can you give on, and what are your must-haves?

Is it because families work like an emotional unit?

An emotional unit that stays connected even though they're apart...that can be good, too. Even so, distance is a gift I will accept with gratitude.

Does SD23 seem to want a relationship with you? I was idolized, then a means to an end. I'm not saying this is always the case with BPD's, but I've never felt like she cared about me as a person. Never asked about work or my interests or things I cared about. I opened up to her once or twice, but when it was used against me later or reported to other people, I didn't share personal thoughts again. Time was spent on her, about her, for her. Honestly, she acts like my kids did at about 12. H has even described her as childlike. I've never met anyone quite like her, no idea it was common until I came here.

[pursuingJoy]

How did you sort out that it was best to steer clear of a situation, let's say back out and let them have time alone (and be blissfully unaware) and how did you guys determine it best to have some amount of closeness.  (I see this as a spectrum because sometimes you guys are in the house, yet have chose to be distant)

H struggled to prioritize communicating with me - he would call his mom, make a plan, then invite me along - so it's worked really well for us to develop a plan together, invite his mom or check in with her about dates, and schedule the visit with little downtime. Kids, wine tours, going out to eat, shopping - all welcome distractions and things she enjoys.

I've also enjoyed visits where MIL's best friend is present. Having a fourth person dispelled the triangular dynamic. (This doesn't work if the fourth person is someone she doesn't know well.)

Earlier this year I had to go for a two hour ride with just the three of us. I bought yarn and a crochet hook and crocheted the whole way. Kept me calm, and gave us something to talk about when things got awkward.

H visits his mom a few times a month, depending on the time of year. My only ask is that he make the plan with me first to make sure it works for our family. I've always made it work.

What lessons have you learned in the past and how do you look to the future to determine the amount of distance.

It's helped to depersonalize her behavior and see it as an emotional limitation to respect. Just like anyone with a behavioral disorder, she can't handle certain things. I can respect her space without sacrificing mine.

[livednlearned]

If she's feeling anxious or down, the smallest inflection or look will send her over the edge. Kind of like a teeny bit of invalidation can create a lot of damage in one fell swoop, while it takes consistent validation to build up any version of positive interaction.

Is that what you meant?

Yes, although I hadn't thought about the locked-and-loaded distinction. The only time I can remember having a positive outcome during a locked-and-loaded interaction, I had to completely abandon my boundaries. That happened early on in our relationship.

As to the second distinction, SD23 is often feeling anxious or down, and like you mention, it takes nothing for things to nosedive. And I mean nothing. There have been times I suspect she purposefully goes looking for something, anything, that could be a potential beef.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if I need to spend as much time as I do thinking how to phrase things and how to respond or not respond. I am prone to overthinking 

I asked him to stay present when she visited. As much as he loves his mom, he used to disappear a few minutes after she arrived for a weekend visit. He'd be playing video games with his son, outside mowing, weed eating, fixing the car. It was weird.

I'm amazed how similar our experiences are. H used to do this, too. When I started to address this directly, asking him to be present during her visits, the tension increased between us. We've come a long way on this particular sticking point. It was rolled up with some of the other things you mentioned, like making sure I am included in any plans he makes when it comes to her visits. I got some of the, "I refuse to tell SD23 she can't visit" when what I was asking for was, "Please consult with me before you say yes."
 

Are you open to letting her stay with you, or in a hotel? What can you give on, and what are your must-haves?

I was thinking about this last night...I am not open to having her stay here. Full stop. We aren't in a living situation where it would be comfortable to have anyone stay here, much less a bathroom crasher. If he insists it is too (rude, cruel, cold, etc.) then I would help him think of scenarios where he could offset those impressions.

Does SD23 seem to want a relationship with you? I was idolized, then a means to an end. I'm not saying this is always the case with BPD's, but I've never felt like she cared about me as a person. Never asked about work or my interests or things I cared about. I opened up to her once or twice, but when it was used against me later or reported to other people, I didn't share personal thoughts again. Time was spent on her, about her, for her. Honestly, she acts like my kids did at about 12. H has even described her as childlike. I've never met anyone quite like her, no idea it was common until I came here.

I could've written this exact thing, PJ. Except SD23 seems more toddler-like than 12. That's probably a function of being H's daughter and not his mother, maybe? Or maybe it's a sign of when the trauma began to manifest.

Anyway, she did exactly what you describe. Idealizing me in the beginning (e.g. I think of you as my mom) and then a means to an end. During our last visit, perhaps the most successful from my perspective, especially in terms of my boundaries, she was quite confused.

I was able to assert myself as primary adult in the house without spending a lot of time with her, and she experimented with submission to see if that might work (not). I don't think she has much in the way of experience when someone expresses kindness and firmness while asserting boundaries.

I also don't give H much to work with (he would likely confide to SD23 what I was doing) so she couldn't stir something up with him. She made half-hearted attempts with, "LnL, are you mad at me?" My T has said the answer to this question is best left at, "Not at all."

[livednlearned]

How did you sort out that it was best to steer clear of a situation, let's say back out and let them have time alone (and be blissfully unaware) and how did you guys determine it best to have some amount of closeness.  (I see this as a spectrum because sometimes you guys are in the house, yet have chose to be distant)

I use my own sense of calm as a guide. I visualize a cup that, with SD23, works best when full. She is a draining presence so if my cup is full, I might participate more, knowing I can step away and fill back. If I'm half full, then sorry. Nope. I'll put more effort into cup-filling type activities. Mindfulness has been key to this. Until I began mindfulness, I didn't have a good gauge for what feeling I was going for.

What lessons have you learned in the past

My biggest lessons have two parts.

Part 1: It was all about the cup. I noticed that I was more successful applying skills I learned here and elsewhere when I focused on taking care of myself. I also read books that were more or less compassionate about dealing with a BPD loved one.    

The result: I became a more skilled emotional leader, H and I got better at handling disagreements, but SD23 somehow carved out a dominant position for herself. I became better at self-care, boundaries and validation but was missing something critical.

Part 2: Understanding covert aggression. I understood overt and passive aggression, but not covert. SD23 is 99 percent covert. I worked with a T who noticed I minimized interactions that carried a lot of symbolic meaning. Things like SD23 helping herself to food in the pantry without consulting me. Or, telling me, "My dad said it's ok if I have this" when it's a meal I made the night before and froze so H and I could eat it later in the week. The message being, "H can't say no to me so you can't either. I know because I've tested this repeatedly."

And she was right, because if I complained to H after the fact, then he would say something like, "I'm not going to tell SD23 she has to bring her own food."

Instead, I started to address the issues before they happened where possible. This is probably the most important thing I've done with H.

Or, I'll announce whatever the boundary is when they're both within earshot. "I'm saving half this meal for leftovers so it's here on Thursday for me. It's in the freezer with my name on it."

PJ, I think this differs from the dynamic with your H. With mine, maybe because he's the parent and not the child, I can be parental (authoritative) and he will follow my lead about certain things. Also, I can use lines like, "Let's model good habits so she's welcome elsewhere when she visits."

The bottom line is that I re-established the rules of engagement.

and how do you look to the future to determine the amount of distance.

Same thing with the cup. Where we're living now, given how it's laid out, I know it will be a challenge to keep my cup full if she stays here.

I don't want to resort to ultimatums (e.g. "if she stays here, you guys are on your own") because that's a cup drainer for me and from the perspective of my marriage, it's actually giving SD23 a win of sorts (the wedge).

So I'm trying to do some pre-work with H, reminding him to talk to me first about any visits, and bringing up the way we're going to handle all guests.

Both H and I have a history of being conflict avoidant so there is also that. We tend to broach this stuff with a shared desire to minimize conflict. I think he is relieved when I do pre-work because then he knows exactly where the perimeter of the boundary is, including things he can say to SD23 if she responds with any kind of covert aggression. "I'm going to come all the way out there and be alone in a hotel room by myself for a week." I've already role-modeled this potential comment from her. "We're doing the same thing with all guests, SD23. We don't have a guest room/ we can all hang out in the hotel room/balcony/waterfront view. You know I go to bed 4 hours before you so this gives you lots of opportunity to sleep in and you'll be better rested, etc.

It feels like you have to have enough skills for two people to land these planes.

[pursuingJoy]

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if I need to spend as much time as I do thinking how to phrase things and how to respond or not respond. I am prone to overthinking  

I overthink things too. Learning about BPD was a turning point. It wasn't that I was too sensitive, insensitive, too particular, not vocal enough, didn't value family, grew up in a dsyfunctional family, or anything else that they put on me. It's about the disorder. MIL can't help it (well, she technically could, but the chances of her getting treatment at 82 is pretty slim).

While I reached the realization that she can't/won't change happened pretty quickly, it's been waaay harder to navigate H's lack of boundaries with her. I feel like I've had to think for both of us to get through this. I've felt resentful about that sometimes, but when I come here and read all that children of parents with BPD go through, I have compassion and renewed energy.

The hardest part of all of this was figuring out what I wanted and asking for it unapologetically. I've been able to do that more consistently, and as a result, our entire dynamic calmed waaaay down. I realized that by trying to constantly adjust and make it work for everyone, I was creating uncertainty and frustration. They need me to be the steady one.

I think I was afraid of asking for what I wanted because on some level, I was worried that I was who they said I was - selfish and mean and uncaring. The reality is, I'm not. I'm a caring person. I'm not vindictive. I try to understand all sides of something before I decide. I love my husband. I could have trusted what I wanted, all along.

H used to do this, too. When I started to address this directly, asking him to be present during her visits, the tension increased between us.

That's wild. I wonder if they want them to visit because of guilt, but on some level, their avoidance shows that they have difficulty spending time with them?

I got some of the, "I refuse to tell SD23 she can't visit" when what I was asking for was, "Please consult with me before you say yes."

Same conversations here.

 

I was thinking about this last night...I am not open to having her stay here. Full stop. We aren't in a living situation where it would be comfortable to have anyone stay here, much less a bathroom crasher. If he insists it is too (rude, cruel, cold, etc.) then I would help him think of scenarios where he could offset those impressions.

Sounds reasonable. I'm glad you have a relatively benign reason for her to stay in a hotel. It will cause them discomfort but that's ok. They will adjust.

 

I could've written this exact thing, PJ. Except SD23 seems more toddler-like than 12. That's probably a function of being H's daughter and not his mother, maybe? Or maybe it's a sign of when the trauma began to manifest.

sign of when trauma began to manifest, definitely. And I think the difference is also in their relationship. Does SD23 have a SO? I wonder if her behavior would be different if her needs were being met elsewhere. I think our family dynamic would be very different if H's dad hadn't passed away. I'm guessing he absorbed a lot of this.

MIL will sometimes parade her investment in young women around her, sort of like a, "Look what you could have had." 4 years into our marriage, she started doting on H's ex-wife that she didn't like. It felt weird and yucky. That's when she started calling me by the ex-wife's name. I talked to H, who of course said he can't control what MIL does, it was weird, but she was just trying to stay close to the kids.

6 years in, she invited her single neighbor, a pretty lady our age, to our house for Thanksgiving. I liked the neighbor, she was fun and feisty. The two of them joked all day about how close they were. MIL went on and on about much the neighbor would do for her. Nothing I could put my finger on, but there were weird points where I felt like MIL was either pushing neighbor on H, or pointing out to me where and how I'd failed. Shortly after this visit, MIL discarded the neighbor friend, saying she was too pushy. They don't get along any more. This time, I observed but I didn't say anything. It would only be denied.

She claims she doesn't know how Facebook works, but she likes and comments on posts by her cousins and friends. This morning she wished her granddaughter's friend a happy birthday. She's NEVER liked anything I've posted, even if I tag her, or if it's about her son or the grandkids. Twice I've posted a happy mother's day message featuring a photo of her, and she completely ignored it. Again, I just observe, I don't get upset or say anything. It would be denied, there's no point.

Any one of these things is small potatoes, I know, but after a while, the build up gets old. I've dealt with this for 7 years. I have mad respect for anyone who has endured a lifetime of this kind of behavior and gaslighting, and has the courage to face it and discover a new reality.

I also don't give H much to work with (he would likely confide to SD23 what I was doing) so she couldn't stir something up with him. She made half-hearted attempts with, "LnL, are you mad at me?" My T has said the answer to this question is best left at, "Not at all."

Just reading this is affirming. I've always felt challenged on this, by the T, H and others. "Be open with her, she might understand" when everything in my gut was telling me to say less.

Yesterday in an hour long car ride, H was waxing eloquent, as he often does, how kids these days don't appreciate time with their parents. You never get time back, you don't appreciate parents till they're gone, never know when they might die, etc. These are digs at me because, in his mind, I prevent him from spending more time with his mom. Usually I just "mm-hm" and let him talk, then find a way to engage him in another topic. But honestly, I'm tired of the digs, so this time...

I took what he was saying about kids and I put it back on him (durn if that didn't feel good.) I asked, "I know you value time with family. Do you feel like you're doing enough to hold to that value? Are you doing all you can?" I had to ask twice, because he was confused at first. In the end, he said he feels like he's doing all he can, that being married means compromising, and he was grateful that I didn't stop him from seeing his mom. He also said that he was sad that I didn't get along with her, because if we did, we might spend more time doing stuff all together. (I did not apologize here, as I may have in the past. I just listened and let him sit with his thoughts.)

He also admitted that MIL and ex didn't get along, and that MIL can be "a bit much." That is as much as he'll say about his mom.

That was a ton of progress for us. He seems to be accepting my boundary and that provides a measure of relief for me.

[formflier]

I overthink things too. 

I'm president of the overthinkers club...if you want to join...come on it.

One of the things my P "hammers home" with me is to "assign the most parsimonious explanation" for words and behaviors (when they are not explicit)

These are digs at me because, in his mind, I prevent him from spending more time with his mom.

What if they weren't digs?

What if they were an expression of his feelings that could have been done in a more clear or artful way?

How would that change your r/s?

But honestly, I'm tired of the digs, so this time...


I took what he was saying about kids and I put it back on him

I was doing the jig when I read this!

A favorite FF phrase is "hand it back to them".  (usually with curiosity or perplexion...wait.."perplexion"...is that a word?  Spell check booted it)



 

He also admitted that MIL and ex didn't get along, and that MIL can be "a bit much." That is as much as he'll say about his mom.

This was a fast ball...I'm wishing you would have knocked it out of the park.

How often is "a bit much" expressed?

How could you "hand that back to him" or otherwise gain clarity?

Best,

FF

(still doing the jig..you've got this!    )

[pursuingJoy]

I'm president of the overthinkers club...if you want to join...come on it.

HA! 

What if they weren't digs?

What if they were an expression of his feelings that could have been done in a more clear or artful way?

How would that change your r/s?

They're digs and I have enough contextual experience to know that. They're also deeply held values that have been instilled in him, right or wrong. Respect authority, no matter what. Adults are always right, even when they're wrong. Say yes sir, no ma'am, and if you don't, I'll demand that you do.

He was taught that doing these things makes you a good person, which is why he feels justifies in criticizing others for not doing them. If I focus on the value, it keeps communication tight, and where it should be.

I was doing the jig when I read this!

thanks!

A favorite FF phrase is "hand it back to them".  (usually with curiosity or perplexion...wait.."perplexion"...is that a word?  Spell check booted it)

I motion to add perplexion to the dictionary. Second? All in favor?
 

How often is "a bit much" expressed?

How could you "hand that back to him" or otherwise gain clarity?

He has said that or something similar maybe 3 times in the past 16 months, and only when we are in a good place in our relationship. If we're fighting, he retreats back to saying that his mom is perfect.

To be honest, I'm not sure that I could take his comment anywhere else, even when we're in a good place. He says it very carefully and hesitantly. My gut tells me that even gentle nudging will make him hide. Any suggestions?

[livednlearned]

I overthink things too.

To be fair, there's a lot to think about with these relationships. Especially if you want your marriage to last. There's a phrase I've read here on these boards that the skills are not intuitive and must be learned. I don't know how you do things in counter intuitive ways, or learn things, without thinking a lot.

I did, however, think too much about why SD23 was the way she was. I thought if I could explain it to H in just the right way he would get on board with things. That was a waste.

While I reached the realization that she can't/won't change happened pretty quickly, it's been waaay harder to navigate H's lack of boundaries with her

Ditto for me. This isn't my first rodeo with a disordered family member. This is in many ways trickier.

I feel like I've had to think for both of us to get through this.

We are the same person  

The hardest part of all of this was figuring out what I wanted and asking for it unapologetically.

Same. I also had to recognize that just because it's something relatively small, it still matters. And to not feel guilty about asking for something that may seem small.  

They need me to be the steady one

That's a great perspective. I hadn't thought of it like that before.

I wonder if they want them to visit because of guilt, but on some level, their avoidance shows that they have difficulty spending time with them?

H has admitted this. He says it in a sheepish, almost pained way.

Do you think some of the emotion expressed by your H is because he secretly wants someone else to carry his load? He expressed sadness that you and MIL didn't have a better relationship, but maybe there is a yearning for someone to take care of him for once. His anger may sound like "you are mean to my mom" because it's safer maybe. Perhaps what he really wants to say is "why won't you deal with her, I've been doing it my whole life."

He may be enmeshed with his mom, but even so he has given you a very wary admission that something is off with her. There is a kid in there who had to say no to fun kid things because his mom needed him emotionally. Not to mention all the other ways she deprived him of feeling safe and assured.

It will cause them discomfort but that's ok. They will adjust.

It's funny. You're right about the plural.

I always think of it as SD23 will be uncomfortable but it's usually the two of them.

Does SD23 have a SO?

She did until last night. This will be the third break-up with BF.

Having a SO took the edge off the loneliness she feels. It also created a non-stop source of drama and relationship crises.

That's when she started calling me by the ex-wife's name. I talked to H, who of course said he can't control what MIL does, it was weird, but she was just trying to stay close to the kids.

I'm curious if you correct MIL when she does this?

I observed but I didn't say anything. It would only be denied.

My T suggested using humor with SD23.

SD23 used to mispronounce my name and spelled it incorrectly for years after we met. T suggested reciprocating with humor, like mispronouncing SD23's name. I wasn't able to do it with the name/spelling but I have been able to pull this off with other things.

My T also suggested I not censor myself when SD23 does something that is physically inappropriate or disgusting, but to do it in a way where it's short and quick.

Any one of these things is small potatoes, I know, but after a while, the build up gets old

She likely has an extraordinary, finely tuned and tireless ability to exploit any weaknesses, no matter how small. With SD23, the small stuff is her size of choice for waging battles.

Just reading this is affirming. I've always felt challenged on this, by the T, H and others. "Be open with her, she might understand" when everything in my gut was telling me to say less.

If I am open or direct with SD23, waif behaviors intensify. Eyes welling up with tears, lip trembling, hug seeking. Then texting her dad...

Less is more. The smaller the target, the harder it is to hit it.

he was grateful that I didn't stop him from seeing his mom

That suggests he recognizes you as his primary relationship. Do you interpret it that way?

He also said that he was sad that I didn't get along with her, because if we did, we might spend more time doing stuff all together.

Interesting.

Do you believe him? Isn't this the guy who would disappear when MIL came to visit?

He seems to be accepting my boundary and that provides a measure of relief for me.

The T who worked with H and me early on once said that H needed to unleash anger about the changed boundary so he could handle the guilt of wanting it.

[formflier]

To be honest, I'm not sure that I could take his comment anywhere else, even when we're in a good place. He says it very carefully and hesitantly. 

Well..not your job to take it anywhere.  He said it...

It's your job to ask for clarification/context.

How about putting your hand on him and saying "I've noticed you use this phrase.  What does it mean to you?"

then maybe "How do you feel saying that?"

Best,

FF

[Mata]

Do you think some of the emotion expressed by your H is because he secretly wants someone else to carry his load? He expressed sadness that you and MIL didn't have a better relationship, but maybe there is a yearning for someone to take care of him for once. His anger may sound like "you are mean to my mom" because it's safer maybe. Perhaps what he really wants to say is "why won't you deal with her, I've been doing it my whole life."

As the child of a  BPDmother, I think you nailed it.  I truly wish my mom could be someone else's problem. 

[pursuingJoy]

I don't know how you do things in counter intuitive ways, or learn things, without thinking a lot.

Excellent point.

I thought if I could explain it to H in just the right way he would get on board with things. That was a waste.

Same here. Not my first rodeo with a disordered person either. My dad is NPD and engaged in some really heinous behavior. H and MIL learned quickly to use it against me, "You can't understand what it's like to be close to your family..." Eye roll. I don't ever bring up my past.

We are the same person  

RIGHT?

Same. I also had to recognize that just because it's something relatively small, it still matters. And to not feel guilty about asking for something that may seem small.  

Amen! Preach.

Do you think some of the emotion expressed by your H is because he secretly wants someone else to carry his load? He expressed sadness that you and MIL didn't have a better relationship, but maybe there is a yearning for someone to take care of him for once. His anger may sound like "you are mean to my mom" because it's safer maybe. Perhaps what he really wants to say is "why won't you deal with her, I've been doing it my whole life."

You and Mata are blowing my mind here.

I absolutely see a side of him that just wants help. Heck, I get it. The problem is, I can't help without getting bloodied, and that gets really old. I tiled her master shower and bathroom floor. H was soo grateful. Even though she was the one that asked for it after she saw mine, MIL was indifferent. A few months later, H reported that she was unhappy with the work I'd done because the grout was coming out. He took her at her word and sounded sad/disappointed. (I was on to her at this point so I saw it coming a mile away, and that took the sting out.)

I inspected it when we moved her, no grout missing.

Why do interactions with her feel like traps?

The thought that he wants help makes me cry, because I would love to (and did for many years) offer support and another set of hands. I have now tried to shift the way I support by letting him talk about her without offering critique and supporting him in in visiting her or doing what he feels he needs to do.

I've also wondered if keeping me in the mix didn't serve to sustain their known way of relating. I'm scapegoated so MIL can play victim and get the attention she craves from H, who swoops in to rescue, keeping his golden child status and mom-pleasing nature is intact.

In all likelihood all of this is just a pattern they're so used to, they don't know anything else.

 

He may be enmeshed with his mom, but even so he has given you a very wary admission that something is off with her.

A nugget worth appreciating.

It's funny. You're right about the plural.

I always think of it as SD23 will be uncomfortable but it's usually the two of them.

Because they're in a mind-meld, like you said.

She did until last night. This will be the third break-up with BF.

Having a SO took the edge off the loneliness she feels. It also created a non-stop source of drama and relationship crises.

Gotcha - so it's a mixed bag. That makes sense, though I was hoping an SO would provide a measure of stability. Sounds like they do, but it's temporary.  Guessing your H is dragged into the SO drama?

I'm curious if you correct MIL when she does this?

Never got a chance. She would say it, make a big deal of "uugggh I did it again, I'm soo sorry I'm so stupid." H: "Moom, you're not stupid." I can appreciate the genius of it now. Well played, MIL. Gaslighting level: expert. 

At one point, it got under my skin enough that I asked her to be mindful of it (did this in front of H). I made the mistake of getting teary eyed, so she knew she'd hit a nerve. She kept on doing it.  

H told me that if she got anxious about it, she would do it even more, so it was better to drop it. We ignored it and it slowly dropped off over the course of a year. She hasn't called me by any name (at least to my face) in almost 3 years.

My T suggested using humor with SD23.

I have had luck doing this with other difficult people but when I suggested it to H, it didn't go over well at all. Felt eggshelly after that so I didn't walk on them.  
 

My T also suggested I not censor myself when SD23 does something that is physically inappropriate or disgusting, but to do it in a way where it's short and quick.

I really like the quick pragmatic unemotional approach. I don't really see MIL any more, but I practice this with others. It works!

She likely has an extraordinary, finely tuned and tireless ability to exploit any weaknesses, no matter how small. With SD23, the small stuff is her size of choice for waging battles.

If I am open or direct with SD23, waif behaviors intensify. Eyes welling up with tears, lip trembling, hug seeking. Then texting her dad...

Yeeeepppp. And H's response makes all the difference in how far she can take it, right? I was so good at JADE-ing in these moments! "If you'd only listen to me! Tweaking your approach in small ways will help you from getting dragged into her drama, will make her feel better, and will prevent me from being scapegoated! Listen to meee!"  

Does your H understand/observe triangulation? Mine dismisses most of what I say but he was very interested in the Karpman triangle.

That suggests he recognizes you as his primary relationship. Do you interpret it that way?

mmmm - I'm not sure I took it that way. He's told me that I have no right to dictate how much he talks to his mom, or how. He's said many times in the past that no matter what I said or did, he would NEVER stop talking to, visiting, seeing his mom the way he wanted to.

I know he loves me. He's also said many times that he doesn't understand why it has to be this hard. He can see patterns of behavior and history repeating itself with her, but on some level he genuinely can't see anything beyond what's right in front of him. Enmeshment and FOG.

I took his comment to mean he was thankful he didn't have to expend energy fighting me on it. It's gratitude and I'll take it.

Do you believe him? Isn't this the guy who would disappear when MIL came to visit?

I know right? I don't think his motivation is 'to do fun stuff' as much as he wants to do things that will make her less sad, whatever that means, and he feels that is his duty. I believe his life is easier when I'm with him. Could be that he doesn't want to be the sole target of his mother's energy, he wants help, doesn't want to separate life with mom from life with wife...shrug. Whatever his motivation, he seems to want me around, but no, it's not about the fun stuff .

The T who worked with H and me early on once said that H needed to unleash anger about the changed boundary so he could handle the guilt of wanting it.

Whooaaaaa. I need a little mind-exploding emoji here. Seriously. I've always felt like the target, but maybe it's his own guilt. I'll chew on that.

H has been distracted and negative all week, which usually means MIL is dysregulating or depressed. Sure enough, yesterday he said he wanted to go spend the day with her tomorrow. I asked how she was doing, and he said, "I just want to go see her and spend time with her." This usually means she is sad and he feels compelled to make her happy again. I want to tell him, "You'll feel better after you get your fix," but I'm not sure my humor would be appreciated.

I think one of the hardest parts of all of this is his lack of awareness and/or refusal to share his feelings with me. I think I understand where it comes from, but boy does it have potential to damage our relationship.

FF, love the idea of asking him how saying that makes him feel. That is something I would ask. Tucking that in my toolbox.

[formflier]

Regarding the grout. 

In person, did you ask her to show you her concern? 

Was this ever discussed further?

(OBTW..I've done lots of tiling and been around lots of tile people and I would not understand "grout coming out")


Regarding mindset whenever he brings up his Mom.  Stay "neutral and curious"...realize that there is little chance he is expressing something that can be taken at face value.

Your attitude is it's important to understand your husband in the way he wants you to understand his words

No judgment...just a look for understanding.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

PJ, I gotta say one more time how much I appreciate you posting here. It's validation-palooza  

Guessing your H is dragged into the SO drama?

So this is fascinating to me, but no. You know how you're able to see how MIL works but your H doesn't? I'm having one of those twilight experiences right now. Instead of SO drama, H is getting a high volume of standard somatic complaints from SD23. She needs attention but can't discuss too much SO drama because (my sense is that) there is something that doesn't add up. She doesn't want to draw too much attention to the BF for some reason.

I can appreciate the genius of it now. Well played, MIL. Gaslighting level: expert.  

 

At one point, it got under my skin enough that I asked her to be mindful of it (did this in front of H). I made the mistake of getting teary eyed, so she knew she'd hit a nerve. She kept on doing it.

Teary eyes would make SD23 do it more.  

Does your H understand/observe triangulation? Mine dismisses most of what I say but he was very interested in the Karpman triangle.

Can you say more about that? How did he express interest and did he see how it applied to you and MIL?

I don't know if H understands triangulation tho I've talked about it with him. This is one of those topics where I've had to do more and say less.

He's said many times in the past that no matter what I said or did, he would NEVER stop talking to, visiting, seeing his mom the way he wanted to

Yeah. Sounds catastrophic. You seem like a very kind and compassionate person who would not ask him to "stop talking to, visiting, or seeing your mom." I wonder if those are things that MIL has said to him. 

My H has said something similar. A while ago SD23 crossed the line and H was furious with her. In anger, he said to me, "I got rid of (employer), I got rid of (ex-wife), but I'm stuck with SD23."

Which is true. He is stuck with her.

Did you go through a stage of grief before finding acceptance that MIL is part of being in this marriage?

I took his comment to mean he was thankful he didn't have to expend energy fighting me on it. It's gratitude and I'll take it.

That makes sense. I can see, then, why he would say that it's better to "let it go" (meaning you and MIL having a relationship) instead of trying to maneuver the boundary around visiting your home. He probably notices that the compartmentalizing is preferable to the conflict.

I think one of the hardest parts of all of this is his lack of awareness and/or refusal to share his feelings with me. I think I understand where it comes from, but boy does it have potential to damage our relationship.

I really appreciate this insight. Trying to work on these relationships when there is a marriage involved feels tricky in a way that has at times brought me to the mat. What I really appreciate in your story is that the element that kind of stripped you of strength (being treated almost like a third wheel) was also a source of empowerment (you can roll out of the triangle).

[Mata]

The thought that he wants help makes me cry, because I would love to (and did for many years) offer support and another set of hands. I have now tried to shift the way I support by letting him talk about her without offering critique and supporting him in in visiting her or doing what he feels he needs to do.

I've also wondered if keeping me in the mix didn't serve to sustain their known way of relating. I'm scapegoated so MIL can play victim and get the attention she craves from H, who swoops in to rescue, keeping his golden child status and mom-pleasing nature is intact.

As much as I wish my mom was someone else's problem, I've learned having my H step in and help her is often not a good solution.  It ends up with her triangulating us, and interferes with our marriage.  It is much better for my H to support me from the side.  For example, when my mom moved to my town last fall, H and I went to her house and helped pack her up.  About a week after she moved into her new place, she called me spitting angry about something he packed. (It was totally ridiculous - he asked her if she needed her stereo.  She said yes, and he packed it. Then when she unpacked it, she got mad because he "challenged her" about having it.)  Bottom line, she wanted me to get mad at him.   I felt defensive of him, but also frustrated with him for the way he phrased the question to her because it set her off and I felt responsible to make her happy.  The whole situation made me feel crazy. 

So, I'd say that yes, having you in the mix probably perpetuates their cycle.