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Author Topic: Bpd christians in stress  (Read 571 times)
Trying2bekind

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« on: August 15, 2020, 01:38:57 PM »

Where would i be able to speak with a strong christian with bpd?  I need to sort some thoughts out.
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2020, 06:44:57 AM »


Welcome

I'm available to sort out issues regarding BPD and Christianity.  I noticed your other post about devaluing  as well.

First:  Christianity and Christian tradition.  I'm the Baptist variety and try to stick to the more literal side of Biblical interpretation. 

Hmmm..interesting...launching right into literal Biblical stuff, I wonder why?

Proverbs 4:23  (NIV)

Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

Now that's an interesting scripture to lead with...  Why not talk about forgiveness and sacrifice and kindness and how that can relate to BPD? 

That's a good question...  How would you answer it?

For the devaluing question in another thread.  Can you give an example?

I'll check back soon.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2020, 02:22:06 PM »

From the Christian perspective, mental illness is seen as a departure from the divine.  In the past, and across cultures, people who were mentally ill had exorcisms.  Priests and shamans were consulted to drive out the mental illness by casting out the demons causing it.

In some cases, the demon driven out of the mentally ill person must be taken into the body of the priest/shaman and then destroyed.  This is done through love.

We know now that many mental illnesses have physiological and chemical causes, but what about the spiritual part of this?  Here is an article that might help.

https://hopes.stanford.edu/exorcism-and-mental-illness-across-different-cultures/

There is also the late psychiatrist Dr. Scott Peck who examined mental illness through the spiritual perspective and demonic possession.

This is interesting because my uBPD H, when he was drunk several months ago, said he was tormented by "demons" that caused him to abuse me.




  
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Trying2bekind

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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2024, 03:24:52 PM »

I was looking to hear how one nbpd helps another bpd friend walk through stressful times when o e might want to act out.   Im looki g for others experiences in loving when it is confusing.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2024, 08:58:39 PM »

There is principled love (Greek: agape) where there is a saying, "You can love the person but not the bad behavior."  That's how Jesus was able to exclaim about the soldiers' actions shortly before dying, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." - Luke 23:34

However, there is some measure of culpability when a person knowingly does wrong, be it in words or actions.  A person with BPD (pwBPD) or some other acting-out disorder is able to live life with populations and yet not get institutionalized or incarcerated.  Mostly they are sufficiently aware of consequences to hold themselves back from most forms of severe abuse.  What they fail to do is stop themselves from hurtful behavior when it is in private scenarios where they feel they can let loose their moods and feelings however they want as long as it isn't quite judicially "actionable".

So what is reported here is that the pwBPD (or other acting-out PD harming others) acts out badly, typically just so long as it isn't so bad as to be going too far.

For clarity, just because a person has skewed perceptions, erratic moods or whatever is no excuse for poor behavior.  Responsibility has to be a goal too.

If it is non-BPD friends with a BPD, there rises the complication of close relationships.  BPD is a disorder impacting relationships.  PwBPD typically misbehave more the closer the relationship.  So if you're trying to help the pwBPD, then the baggage of the relationship status may very well limit how much the person can truly listen.

That is why therapists have to be very careful to keep everything on a professional basis.  Emotions can sabotage the therapist's efforts.

This can also be where Boundaries come in.  PwBPD typically resist boundaries.  Since we can't impose boundaries on others, we instead ponder ways to set boundaries for ourselves.  So our boundaries would be triggered in response to anything negative the other person says or does.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2024, 09:07:21 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

Pook075
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2024, 08:17:16 PM »

I was looking to hear how one nbpd helps another bpd friend walk through stressful times when o e might want to act out.   Im looki g for others experiences in loving when it is confusing.

As a Christian, the labels (BPD, NBPD, etc) don't matter.  The way we are called to love is exactly the same regardless of who we're talking about.

From 1st Corinthians 13, love is patient and kind.  It does not envy or boast. It is not proud or self-seeking. It keeps no record of wrongs, it is not easily angered, it does not delight in evil but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes and preserves.

How do you love when it's confusing?  You lead with empathy and put your pride, envy, and, judgement aside.  You show patience and kindness as you build new levels of trust. You comfort and listen and encourage regardless of the other stuff.

I hope that helps.

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PearlsBefore
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2024, 08:39:57 PM »

From the Christian perspective, mental illness is seen as a departure from the divine.  In the past, and across cultures, people who were mentally ill had exorcisms.  

https://hopes.stanford.edu/exorcism-and-mental-illness-across-different-cultures/

There is also the late psychiatrist Dr. Scott Peck who examined mental illness through the spiritual perspective and demonic possession. This is interesting because my uBPD H, when he was drunk several months ago, said he was tormented by "demons" that caused him to abuse me.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9339793/

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/136346158802500101

https://www.peertechzpublications.org/articles/APT-5-135.pdf

There is a strong correlation between BPD and the belief that one suffers from demonic possession.

As my username suggests, there must be a line.
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Flower1

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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2024, 11:12:31 AM »

I came across Kris Reece on youtube. 
Does anyone know? quite disturbing what she says about narcissistic personalities
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2024, 01:19:21 PM »

I haven't seen her videos but I looked at her website. I can't see anywhere where she has had formal training in either counseling or biblical studies.

So here is where I get skeptical. Anyone can declare themselves to be a Christian, but being an expert in the field of mental health requires some training and credentials.

So I looked at both and found this person: Dr David Hawkins, who has a PhD in psychology, and also has expertise in narcisism.

I am not condoning ( or condemning) the opinions of either of these people. I don't know what their opinions are. I may not agree with them, but there is a difference in their training and credentials.

Reece refers to narcisists as "Devil-sent" and I can understand thinking that- but that somehow dehumanizes them. If all humans are created in the image of God, then that includes all people and narcisisists too.

Hawkins claims to have a success rate with them but clarifies that most have narcisistic traits rather than full NPD. I don't see where he uses descriptors such as "devil" when speaking about them. He also states he is experienced with Christian counseling and also secular if the client prefers.

Religion is faith and belief, but counseling others is more than that. I don't know any more about either of these people but I tend to feel more confident in someone who puts their information about credentials right out there rather than someone who doesn't.
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HurtAndTired
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2024, 01:23:23 PM »

Hi Trying2bekind,

I am a practicing Orthodox Christian and have consulted with my priest at length about this issue. My wife is dBPD (petulant sub-type) and has abused me for the past 12 years, she is also a lapsed Catholic who has only the past week gone back to Mass for the first time in decades. In a nutshell, my priest's take was this: love is not an emotion, but instead, it is a choice and an action. We are called to love everyone, even our enemies. However, God does not want us to suffer abuse. You can love someone from a distance while protecting yourself. We are called to pray for the person who is suffering, but we are never to allow ourselves to be abused.

We can be long-suffering (patient) and kind, but we must also love ourselves like God loves us. The commandment to love our neighbor as we love ourselves cannot be carried out if we hold ourselves in so little regard as to allow someone to abuse us. If that is our love for ourselves, how then are we supposed to be Good Samaritans? A Self-Loathing Samaritan would have left the injured Jew to die on the roadside because he "is loving his neighbor as he loves himself:"...not at all. Mental illness, especially one where the person can control their behaviors in public (like most people with mid to high-functioning BPD) does not give them carte blanche to abuse those closest to them while they are in private.

Part of loving a pwBPD is placing healthy boundaries and keeping them held firm. This keeps you safe and will make the pwBPD less likely to cross those boundaries into abusive territory, which is spiritually damaging to them (abuse is sinful.) Sometimes love means calling the police. Sometimes love means committing a suicidal person to mental care. Love is not placating the person when they are dysregulated and being harmful to themselves or others. Likewise, you should not tolerate verbal or emotional abuse and should calmly remove yourself from the situation until such a time as the pwBPD is regulated and can treat you with the respect you deserve. It is important to let the pwBPD know why you are removing yourself and when you will be back.

Validate the pwBPDs emotions, and learn how to love them as they are, but challenge them to be better and don't take abuse. My priest also says that while prayer is always beneficial, science and knowledge are gifts from God. Medical and therapeutic intervention can and should be a part of treatment in addition to caring for the person spiritually. Just as you wouldn't reject the services of an oncologist if you had cancer as a Christian (expecting to pray away the tumor) neither should you turn away from the services of a licensed therapist and/or practicing psychiatrist. BPD is a complex and pernicious disorder that needs to be treated at all levels. Most of all, don't forget to take care of yourself so that you can help care for the pwBPD.

Let me know if there is anything else I can do to help, or if there are any other questions that you have.

HurtAndTired
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Flower1

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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2024, 03:03:36 PM »

I haven't seen her videos but I looked at her website. I can't see anywhere where she has had formal training in either counseling or biblical studies.

So here is where I get skeptical. Anyone can declare themselves to be a Christian, but being an expert in the field of mental health requires some training and credentials.

Thank you very much for doing this research! I didn't have this reflex to vist her webside !

you are right, you have to pay attention to the training of the person speaking !
« Last Edit: March 01, 2024, 03:35:38 PM by kells76, Reason: fixed quote box » Logged
Pook075
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2024, 04:15:34 PM »

In a nutshell, my priest's take was this: love is not an emotion, but instead, it is a choice and an action. We are called to love everyone, even our enemies. However, God does not want us to suffer abuse. You can love someone from a distance while protecting yourself. We are called to pray for the person who is suffering, but we are never to allow ourselves to be abused.

We can be long-suffering (patient) and kind, but we must also love ourselves like God loves us.

After my BPD wife left 19 months ago, I spoke to many pastors as I visited new Baptist churches every Wednesday and twice Sunday.  I was also very active on YouTube and I got into the habit of visiting a nearby lake in the mountains every morning for sunrise.  I would watch a sermon on marriage and/or God's word, spend some time praying, and then start my day.  In the evenings, I'd go back to the lake for Bible study or another sermon...just to be out in nature and alone with God.

For anyone of faith that is struggling in a BPD relationship, I can't recommend this enough.  I found myself again through Christ and scripture, which rapidly accelerated my healing.

The vast amount of scripture and preaching I studied on the subject made things very clear- God hates divorce.  There are one or two exceptions in the Bible which make divorce okay (adultery/abandonment by a non-believer) but even then, we're called to forgive and try to reconcile.

My wife was a Christian raised in church, and she left me with feelings for another man.  Nothing happened between them (as far as I know), but the book of Matthew makes it clear that to even consider adultery with another person is the same thing as adultery.  In other words, it's not specifically the sex...it's what is in your mind and your heart.

Yet I still struggled because you're supposed to try to reconcile anyway, which I did for over a year.  My wife wanted nothing to do with me and her mind was made up.  That's when the other exception started to weigh on me- could she be a non-believer?  She believes in God and says Christ died on the cross for her sins.  Yet when it came to scripture, all that went out the window once she decided that she was leaving for the other guy.

This topic earlier mentioned demonic forces, and I have come to believe that's true.  Not that my wife was possessed, but that she was so down and depressed for months on end, that she was spiritually weak and tempted beyond what she could handle.  She knows the Bible better than me and has never believed in divorce before, but once she decided she was leaving, she never once looked back. 

I now believe that's an unbeliever walking away, and why I finally filed for divorce since she was demanding it.

As I look back on the past 19 months, my wife refused to speak with her pastor or her uncle (another pastor) or a cousin (another pastor), even though they all tried to talk her out of giving up.  Her parents, brothers, our kids...they all quoted the gospel and told her to fight for her marriage, but she refused almost if it was inconceivable for her.

I look back at the Biblical story of Moses and pharaoh, how he kept hardening his heart towards repenting until God finally hardened his heart even further.  I believe that's what happened in our situation, God sent us on different paths so we could both heal and live different lives.

Many here will say to never give up on your marriage, no matter what happens, and all I can say is "God bless you."  I spent over 500 days in God's word, praying fervently every single day, and every door towards reconciliation remained fully closed while my wife stayed loyal to another man. 

None of us here have all the answers when it comes to the Bible, but I can tell you that prayer, bible study, and fellowship at church will make a mountain of difference.  If you're unsure, pray...and talk to a local pastor.

One last thing I'll share.  Maybe 3 or 4 months after we separated, I was still a hot mess and I prayed to God, "Lord, I pray that you take this pain off of my heart, that you help me heal and see my situation more clearly."  It was like a veil was lifted because while I still hurt, the confusion began to fade and I started to see the marriage in a completely different light. 

I saw how much I was taken for granted and devalued, how so many things were twisted, and I realized that I would not return to a relationship that toxic.  The only way I could reconcile was if God changed her heart the way he changed mine, and to this day that still hasn't happened.  In fact, I'm seeing the patterns repeating with our kids and other family members, they're being devalued as well in favor of this new relationship.

We divorced a week ago today and I no longer love her as a wife.  The connection is completely gone and has been for some time now because of my relationship with the Lord.  I'm not trying to say I did everything right or anything like that, but I have zero regrets because I let God lead me every step of the way.
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2024, 04:34:15 PM »

When my son was a toddler we brought him to his pediatrician and I asked whether my son could be autistic.  I must have described my ex's behavior too since he suggested he could provide references to a few local therapists.  I recall my ex raging and declaring she had the Bible. Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  Obviously the Bible wasn't written to fix mental health issues.

A couple of my close relatives really liked Doctor Ramani PhD who has quite a few Narcissism videos on YouTube.
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