Parents who refuse to discipline their children and narcissism in legal disputes

[zachira]

I am up to my ears with legal challenges with my sister with NPD and my brother with BPD since my mother with BPD died last summer (more on this posted on PSI). My BIL is always walking on eggshells enabling my sister's narcissistic behaviors, as if it is his job to end her meltdowns by doing what she wants. When my sister's children were growing up, both parents refused to discipline my niece who was the golden child who frequently abused other children and adults right in front of her parents. There were endless complaints about my niece's behaviors from the community, the church, neighbors, and relatives. My niece who has turned into a nice young lady has complained about all the heartbreak she has suffered because she had zero discipline growing up. Several years ago, when my BIL and niece were eating dinner at a relatives' house, my niece did not like what was being served and demanded to have pizza, and my BIL went out and bought her pizza. I am wondering if my BIL might also be a narcissist. I am a big fan of Bill Eddy, and have read many of his books on how high conflict people who are often narcissists behave in legal disputes. What do you think might be behind my BIL's dysfunctional behaviors, refusing to discipline the golden child and being a doormat for my sister? I'd like to have a better handle on what makes my BIL tick as I have a long road ahead of me with all the property disputes going on with my siblings.

[I Am Redeemed]

Just off the cuff, I would not expect a narcissist to give in to demands in order to appease. I think your BIL is likely a chronic enabler, someone who "goes along to get along'' and does not know any other way of functioning. He probably cannot swim against the current in any area of his life for fear of getting carried away by it.

[zachira]

I Am Redeemed,
Thank you for your reply. I completely agree with what you have written. It is very helpful to get another perspective.
I think I now I have a better understanding of this after doing some research. Narcissists and codependents have a lot in common including extremely poor boundaries and a lack of an integrated inner self. I think that some of the similarities in behaviors of those with personality disorders and codependency are why some of our members often ask if they have BPD. The member likely has some BPD behaviors yet does not have the core traits which would make them have BPD, like lack of self awarenss about how their behaviors affect others.
My sister refused to get any therapy for my niece when she was young, despite many family members and people in the community being terribly worried about her because she was allowed to do anything she wanted including abusing both adults and children. My sister with NPD once told me she could not take my niece to therapy because that would mean something was wrong with her. I witnessed time and again my niece's behaviors way out of control with my sister and BIL ignoring her behaviors and saying nothing, no matter how many frustrated sad faces in the room. Many times family members and outsiders had to step in at that moment because something had to be done right then and there. For example, some of the cousins stopped my niece from abusing their children who were much younger than she was. (My niece is now a wonderful young lady, and my hat goes off to her; she talks about some of the painful lessons she had to learn because her parents were so negligent.)
I was beginning to think my BIL maybe had NPD. He recently sent me two hostile emails with nothing but random numbers and letters in them. I know he is angry at me for standing up to my sister for how badly she abuses me and my complaining about how he walks on eggshells trying to please my sister and blames me when my sister is unhappy, as she often blows up over things that seem to make no sense whatsoever. Over the years, my BIL never seems to have been able to do enough for others including me, while I have tried to set healthy boundaries with him over his compulsive need to please others.
I want to understand the dynamics between my sister and her enablers as I have many legal issues with her and my brother with BPD due to jointly owned family property and my brother, executor of my mother's estate,refusing to settle it. I have sought out Bill Eddy both in person and through his books, which is very helpful in working on some more realistic strategies that will help to resolve the legal problems with my sister with NPD, my brother with BPD, my codependent BIL, and all their enablers. I am learning a lot and starting to feel there is light at the end of the tunnel, as I face reality and what my choices are considering the kind of people I am dealing with.

[livednlearned]

Narcissists and codependents have a lot in common including extremely poor boundaries and a lack of an integrated inner self. I think that some of the similarities in behaviors of those with personality disorders and codependency are why some of our members often ask if they have BPD. The member likely has some BPD behaviors yet does not have the core traits which would make them have BPD, like lack of self awarenss about how their behaviors affect others.

I would guess most of us are on a continuum. Narcissism is a phase of healthy development that we're supposed to grow beyond, but if adults are not able to help regulate childhood emotions, label them, and support individuation, then that development can become arrested.

Your BIL seems to be on the extreme range of the codependent continuum.

My husband's ex-wife (BPD) remarried a man who could be described as compulsively codependent. Nothing gets him more fevered up than pleasing others. People seems to have contempt for him but nevertheless they order him to do things and then chastise him for how he does them. At events he is sweaty and weird.

I want to understand the dynamics between my sister and her enablers as I have many legal issues with her and my brother with BPD

He is most likely enmeshed with her in some way, maybe like a loyalty bind. The fact that he is messaging you (persecutor) independent of his wife suggests he is pretty fused and wants to display his value (rescuer) to her (victim).

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
Thank you for your understanding reply. You are absolutely right: 1) My BIL is extremely codependent. 2) He is acting as the rescuer of my sister by persecuting me.
My BIL's two emails to me were just plain weird. Both had a list of phony emails with my email address being the only legitimate one. The first email had 3 characters. The second email only had one letter. It seems he is extremely angry yet does not have the words or the justification to be mad at me. He really has got to be mad at himself at some level for being unable to divorce a wife that treats him as badly as my sister does.
I know part of my BIL's anger is due to my beginning to document what I have experienced with both my sister and BIL when they make more outrageous demands and accuse me of acting badly when basically I stay calm and quiet most of the time refusing to get drawn into having another blame me argument. I have begun to respond by email only (never in person) to their outrageous demands by describing how they have behaved in the past and letting them know I will no longer make any more concessions because doing so in the past has just accelerated their abusing me. I have written about how several years ago my sister came up and hit me in the middle of the night in front of her teenage daughter sleeping in the bed next to me because my sister claimed I deserved it due to something I had apparently said. At the time, my sister was talking about divorcing my BIL because he and their teenage children were making fun of her constant meltdowns over nothing. I have made it clear and put it in writing in one of my emails that I will not tolerate any more emotional and physical abuse. I think my BIL is angry because he knows they can no longer stay at the cottage if I am there because things are accelerating to the point that he knows my sister is likely to get physically abusive and I will call the police if I am ever physically abused again. I refused to concede the cottage to them for September which they demanded for themselves, both of them knowing full well September would be the only like time I could come because I have to fly. My sister and BIL both work from home, live within driving distance and could easily have spent time in the cottage any time during the summer. They have apparently rented a place and the two emails from my BIL arrived the day after they got there. I have drawn my lines in the sand with refusing to make any more concessions and continuing to respond to any emails they send me by describing in detail how their past abusive behaviors have led me to stop making any more concessions. I am acquiring the documentation I need in case we have to go to Court though I am doing what I can to get my brother to settle my mom's estate and to sell all jointly owned sibling properties, which when completed means I can go full NC with my siblings and BIL.

[worriedStepmom]

I am glad you are standing up for yourself.  It is very sad that your sister has been able to get away with physically and emotionally abuse you for so long.

It is also sad that your BIL is most likely blaming you for them not being able to stay in the same house as you, because you might call the police on his wife when she harms you.  That is messed up on so many levels.

Do you know where your lines in the sand are for the property division?  Dealing with all of those disorders, it's very likely they might choose to blow all the money on legal fees just to 'win'.   It's good to know what you are willing to sacrifice and what you are determined to hold strong for.

[zachira]

WorriedStepmom,
You are the first member who has replied to my threads on the legal problems that gets it that my siblings and BIL would love to ensnarl me in endless legal battles and leave me broke. I seem to have dodged a few bullets so far. I offered to buy the cottage and had a lawyer hired that would do the paperwork. My sister sent me an email with the most ridiculous conditions for buying the cottage like I pay for the condo land, I reimbourse her for all costs this year even though she has demanded to take the time I am usually at the cottage. I immediately cancelled the lawyer, and not long afterwards she emailed the lawyer saying how I thought her requests were unreasonable while she was open to anything (such a lie).  Legal bill number one dodged.
Now my sister wants me to sign an agreement over the use of the cottage and she has a lawyer representing her. My sister had previously agreed to sell part of the cottage to some cousins, with the explicit conditions being that my sister got all the weeks she wanted, the cousins were not to show up when she was there, and the cousins were to do the work on the cottage that she wanted. For this reason, I told my sister I would not sign any legal agreement on the use of the cottage, because as she has done in the past she will do whatever she wants, and I gave her many specific examples.  Possibly another legal bill dodged.
Now my brother is refusing to settle the estate, and he is the executor. Not sure if he has fired the second lawyer. I am waiting to see if my brother will settle the estate once my sister gets all of mom's nice and valuable things. I am not allowed to have any of mom's  things as my brother refused to follow the instructions in the Will to have the siblings come to the house to divide everything up between us, despite the first lawyer repeatedly urging my brother do so. I am going to do some investigating and find out if the second lawyer is still working for my brother, and if not, how to get the estate settled by going to Court with minimal fees. Hopefully minimal legal fees though there are certainly more legal fees than necessary because my brother refused to follow the Will as the lawyers tried to get him too.
Thank you for your compassion and understanding. It helps me to be heard, cry a few tears, while doing my best to not participate in all the drama my siblings and BIL thrive on. I am hoping as I have said many times before to go permanent no contact with my siblings and BIL once all the properties have been sold. I sometimes feel like a domestic violence victim, in that my siblings and BIL are looking to humiliate me because I am no longer willing to make any concessions and just let them just walk all over me. By making myself scarce and only responding to the emails that I have to, their narcissistic supply of bullying is being curtailed. Some day, I will no longer be available to be abused, and they will for sure find some new targets.

[formflier]

I would sniff around and see if it's up to the executor to show how the will was followed or if it's up to you to show it wasn't followed.

Who has burden of proof.

I don't know, but I would hope the primary duty is with the executor.

Hang in there..

Best,

FF

[zachira]

Formflier,
Thank you for your ideas. It is up to the executor to follow the will, and the job of the attorney who represents the executor and not the beneficiaries, is to make sure the executor obeys the laws. The attorney said that when everything was settled she would send a letter requesting that the beneficiaries sign a statement agreeing not to sue the executor, and if the beneficiaries did not sign this letter or object to how the estate had been settled within a certain period of time, than the executor could not be sued. When I last talked to my brother a couple of months ago, he said maybe I will settle the estate now. My brother is a control freak and very insecure. I think settling the estate means he will no longer be able to control or bully me. So sad the way some people are focused on control and chaos instead of trying to have healthy caring relationships with others. I have been to years of therapy and now have a much higher level of emotional maturity that my siblings and BIL do, though I still have plenty to learn. My siblings and BL consider therapy to be a waste of time. I am able to have close relationships now whereas my siblings and BIL are terrified of intimacy.

[GaGrl]

Zachira, I am confused. Is the cottage you is own with your sister part of your mother's estate? Or had that real estate title already been transferred to the two of you?

There seem to be multiple real estate and property issues going on simultaneously.

[formflier]

Zachira

I think that you need to get an independent legal opinion about the timeline for you (or anyone) to object to the settlement of the estate.

Ask a separate question regarding is "objecting" and "suing" the same thing.   (usually they are not). 

Since the estate is a court matter, there is normally not a requirement to open a separate court matter, although sometimes it is necessary.

The "covenant not to sue" is not a requirement but is actually smart for the lawyer in this case (from his point of view).

How long has the estate been open?

Best,

FF

[zachira]

Formflier,
I agree with you that I need to find out the time line for objecting to the settlement of the estate. I have been avoiding this fearing how my siblings will take revenge, as they always do any time I stand up for myself. Yes, I need to do exactly what you are saying. The estate has been open for more than a year now, and the last essential piece was taken care of in April. All that is left is for my brother to pay me for my mother's things and divide up the money left in the account to pay bills for expenses incurred after mom's death. I now am facing that I feel like I have lost everything. I really can't continue to be involved with most of the extended family or attend family events if I want to avoid their ongoing wrath about objecting in so many instances to the abuse of me and other family members, particularly some of the younger and elderly members who are horribly abused. The cottage was my last hope to continue to be part of the extended family, and that is gone now. I am doing what a friend did to go no contact with her sister. She told me to just cry until I am over it. I am taking time to grieve each day, while trying to tackle so many of the heartbreaking tasks I need to move on. I am trying to do things I enjoy while not overdoing the avoidance of painful things I have to do.
Thank you for telling me exactly what I need to hear. So many of us on this Board really dread what we have to do. I can't imagine how awful it is when there is a divorce and dependent children involved with one high conflict parent determined to hurt the other parent in any ways he/she can. Yet, we have to keep moving forward, doing what we need to do, until one day hopefully the high conflict people have little or no impact on our lives.

[worriedStepmom]

It isn't easy to give up on your extended family.  I was disowned by my late father's family due to a combination of implementing boundaries and political disagreements.

It hurt.  A lot at first, then not as much, then sharp spikes during times when normally your family would be there (for me, a week of renewed grieving when they wouldn't even answer if they were okay after a hurricane).    It's been a few years now, and I still miss that my kids don't have that huge extended family experience that I did.  I have a family of choice, and that helps to fill in some of the gaps.

Take as long as you need to grieve them.  It will probably be easier to do the grieving when you are no contact, but also harder because then they aren't harming you anymore and it's easy to fall into the trap of only remembering the good parts.  And there *were* good parts.  It would have been easier if it was all abusive.

[formflier]

A quick update to my advice.

1.  Find out the date or if that date starts after they pay out and try to close it.  Some estates stay open for a long time.

2.  Don't object until you get a payout.  (pause and think here).  You may need some of that payout to move forward legally.  However, beware of payouts that come with covenants not to sue or other language that says you are good with this.

If they start tossing language like that around, realize you don't have to object or sue...you are  settling it right now ...(on their dime as well)

3.  There may be a separate type of objection that says the estate is "stuck" or otherwise not moving forward. 

4.  There may be another type of objection that says "because the will says X and the executor refuses to do X, I petition the court to replace the executor."  (then name someone not in your family)

Even better yet, suggest yourself as executor or an unrelated person or L.

Can we switch gears and step back?

If in the next 6 months you could settle the cottage or the estate (don't worry about details, just assume you are "satisfied" with either settlement), which one would you take?

I say this because the estate may not trigger a timeline because the executor hasn't yet tried to "close" the estate.

Which one of those is likely to pay off to you in the most amount of money?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

My parents' estates finally closed after over 4 years.  The one who stood the most to gain put off stating whether he wants the extra piece or not.  That wasted nearly two years.  Then the surveyor he hired followed his lead and tried to survey landlocking one parcel so it didn't have access to sewer, then tried a 10 foot easement.  Imagine the concept of digging a sewer line 18-20 feet down on a 10 foot path through 100 feet of trees.   Meanwhile we lost at least 3 offers.

BTW I knew that if I wanted that remaining parcel I never would have gotten the easement resolved equitably.

Then after 4 years of it all, he had the gall to complain it took 6 weeks for him to get his estate distribution.  I've concluded I have a uBPD in the family.

[zachira]

You all really help me to move forward. Yesterday, after being open about how I get stuck in moving forward than I actually took action on getting the estate settled. I left a voice mail with the lawyer asking if she was still representing my brother. Then I got my mail and there was a letter from the lawyer. She is asking me and my sister to sign a letter that we will not sue my brother as a requirement that the rest of the money in my mother's account be distributed. Otherwise she will hold onto the money in my mom's account to use to defend my brother in court if my sister and I do not sign. This is completely different from a previous letter which stated that if we did not sign this type of letter, that they would wait until the time period to object is up before distributing the remaining money. What do you think I should do?

[formflier]

  What do you think I should do?

Get the advice of the lawyer.

Or very very carefully read the letter you are about to sign. 

Most of them say that you will not sue based on what you know now or may learn later about this situation.

If they are willing to change the wording to you will not sue based on the current facts you are aware of...then perhaps.

Also ask a lawyer about the difference in "contesting" a will and "suing".

Can I ask you to define the range of money they are offering you?

$500, 5,000, $50,000 or $500,000 (or more)...kinda will help guide the amount of effort you need to put into this.

Did either letter actually state the amount of time to object?

How much have you been given already?


Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

We are peer support, not lawyers.  The intricacies of laws, case law and what actually is defensible or not, that's above our pay scale.  (Side thought, how much are we getting paid? )  You really need an estate attorney to review the will and what has happened during the estate proceedings in order to get a grasp on where you stand and your practical options.  All you need is an inexpensive consultation or two, you don't need to retain the lawyer unless really necessary.

[GaGrl]

I agree with FF -- what is the value of the estate on which you are "signing off"?

My mom signed off on her father's estate that was under $250k in real estate and cash, in exchange for antiques and items that were clearly familial.

It was worth it to be rid of her uBPD/NP D stepmother, who had been her "mother" since my mom was six years old but had never adopted her/legalized the relationship.

Ten years later, when my stepgrandmother was at End of Life stage, her doctor wanted to get permission for Living Will wishes, and we could not give any legal directions. She lingered six weeks with no one willing to take next of kin responsibility.

I felt nothing by that point. Nothing.

[scraps66]

I'd like to have a better handle on what makes my BIL tick as I have a long road ahead of me with all the property disputes going on with my siblings.

This statement has me reflecting.  During the course of, and prior to, my 4+ year divorce ordeal I became almost obsessed with "figuring out" my exwNPDBPDw.  This in the hopes with, my rose colored glasses on, my research data would obviously be valuable in court.  Well, I was wrong, sadly to this day. 

What I realize is that I should have seen the signs, been aware of them at least, of the impacts on our children and done something about THAT.  That was the time, early on, to help the kids.  Now 12 years later there is blatant developmental impact to both S13 and S15 as well as my relationship with both.

So what I'm saying, suggesting, is while it is good to educate yourself about your query, don't let it control you away from the task at hand. 

My situation is similar, NPDexw has a live in boyfriend who is just "wonderful" with the kids.  On the surface.  But he is codependent and powerless in doing what is really necessary for the children - oppose and limit the impact of NPDexw.       

I can also draw a parallel in my own behavior leading up to when I filed, I was taking myself away from the grief of the relationship by immersing myself, maybe obsessing, about tasks I had or created for myself as necessary. 

This message may be more therapeutic for me than helpful for you, but just wanted to note what I now recognize years later that I didn't realize in the moment.  I didn't see the forest through the trees.   

[zachira]

What is left in the bank account would all be used up, as the lawyer is reserving the remaining amount of money in mom's account in case I do not sign the statement. I am going to look on line and see if I can find out how to write a statement  and sign that protects me if there is any fraud or I do not get my share of the remaining funds. There is a good law library in my area, and I took some of their classes years ago. Their librarians are lawyers and will help a client to find the information they are looking for though they do not give legal advice. They can also help me research how to find both an estate and a real estate lawyer.  
I really appreciate everyone's replies. I am accepting who my family members are, and it helps me to not take personally what they are doing. It hurts, and I have to do what I have to do, so I can move forward. My brother is so paranoid. First he thought I was going to move in with him when mom died. Then he did not want me in mom's house either when she was alive or dead. Then he was terrified I would not sell him mom's house. He now is apparently afraid I am going to contest the Will. I have noticed with both my impaired siblings, that any kind of response that normal people would not be threatened by and interpret as a threat in any way, just terrifies them. Mom was like that, and my BIL is to a certain extent. They just can't do reciprocal communication of any kind, it has to be all about what they want and having full control over everything. I can't do much about how they are, just do what I have to do to get the estate closed and then sell the cottage. The rest of the properties aren't worth much and there are just a few hundred dollars in taxes divided between the three siblings to pay each year. Selling the minor properties does not stress me out like dealing with the estate and cottage do, because there just isn't much required interaction with my siblings. So step one: Get the estate settled. Step two: Sell the cottage. Step three: Receive yearly tax info from my brother on the minor properties and file the taxes, with no further need to interact with either my brother and sister unless we are in the process of selling one of the properties. Step four: Sell the minor properties and go fully no contact with my siblings.
It helps me to write this all out. Thank you all for your feedback and helping me to keep my head up while dealing with so many painful tasks. Your kindness, generosity, and constructive feedback are appreciated more that I can really put into words.

[scraps66]

PS When I was at the depths, it became therapeutic to maintain a journal.  At that time i was journaling for legal purposes too.  But in the times when there is no one to talk to, it helped me to write things down.  Now 12 years later, I probably need to start journaling again.