Boundary setting timing

[SteelGeraniums]

How do you gage when to have boundary setting conversations with a BP? My pwBPD just ended up in the hospital again for attempting suicide. Boundary setting conversations are stressful and obviously I don't want to make recovery worse. So clearly I won't have this conversation really soon, but it will need to happen in the next month or so. I have to have this conversation with her before she gets back from college in December because she's expecting to go back to monthly sleepovers and staying late after family dinners and that's not going to be the case.

[JNChell]

What are the reasons for needing to set boundaries?

[SteelGeraniums]

They primarily have to do with how much time she's over at our house. Previously, she's been over 2 to 3 times a week, sometimes more, sleeping over at least once a month. When she's here for non-structured time (aka, not a family dinner or birthday or other planned event where other family members are invited), she tends to offload all her anxiety on me, and she makes my husband very anxious because she's extremely negative and overshares around our kids. I'm also a very introverted person, so having someone in my house for extended periods who isn't my immediate family is awkward and draining.

All this has strained my marriage a lot, and I have come to understand that I've been enabling her codependency and acting as a Caretaker for years. So my husband and I agreed that it's ok for her to come to events that we normally have family at (we do a weekly dinner that his parents attend, and host BBQs and birthday parties throughout the year), but not more than that. She's used to staying after formal events and just being in my house.

This past summer, she had a really explosive episode where she was threatening suicide and trying to hurt herself and screaming at my husband while she was at our house with my kids in bed. She ended up in in-patient treatment for several days. After that, I had to set some basic boundaries (not oversharing around the kids, if she self-harms while her she'll be asked to leave, of I feel she's unsafe I will immediately call 911 and not ask permission, no showing up 3 hours before dinner to "just hang out") that I hadn't done before, and even that was really hard for her. So I know this won't be an easy conversation.

[JNChell]

That sounds like a good idea. It would be perfectly reasonable to explain to her that she is welcome to come over when she is formally invited. You have a busy family life and you’re right, it’s not okay to feel like you have to give attention and energy to her just because she shows up whenever she wants. She may have a problem with the boundary at first, but that’s her problem. Most people respect the wishes of others without feeling rejected or slighted. I can tell that you all care about her. You are also right in not enabling her. That’s not good for either side. Keep us updated on how this unfolds. Everyone here can learn from this. 

[SteelGeraniums]

I decided to write down what I wanted to say so I didn't forget or get side tracked by her objections or efforts to change the subject. Trying to use the SET and DEAR methods. I don't know if I should just address these all at once, one by one, email her, call her? It will be bad no matter what, but it HAS to be done before she gets home because it directly effects her contact with us while she's in between semesters.

"I want to build a relationship with you that will last a long time without creating resentment or emotional drain, and that can weather any ups and downs in your life or mine in a healthy way.

"I want you to be able to be an independent and self-reliant person, and prevent any continuing codependency or enmeshment that I have contributed to by not setting appropriate boundaries.

"I want to be able to be an emotionally supportive sister, which means I need to take care of my emotional needs and wants first, and not ignore them.

"I need to respect the emotional needs and wants of my husband and my children, and make sure that I don't allow anything to negatively affect my ability to do that.

"I know this isn't a comfortable conversation for you. It probably feels like you are being pushed away and shut out. I have been sending a lot of mixed signals and I apologize for the lack of clarity. I want to make sure that I am clear about what my needs are so we can have a healthy and positive relationship.

"I want to be very clear that I am not setting these boundaries as conditions, or as punishments, or in reaction to how you are doing. These are boundaries that I should have been creating before, but I did not. Because I didn't have them before, I'm sure this feels sudden and confusing. I hope that by consistently reinforcing them, while continuing to show you that I care, that you will be able to understand that your condition does not change my caring for you.

"I am someone who needs physical and emotional space to feel comfortable. I enjoy spending time with my loved ones, and then being able to go home and recharge. I love having you over for family church and dinners and to celebrate special family events with us. I enjoy spending time with you one on one sometimes to talk and have fun. I know that we have had sleepovers every month, and when I evaluated what I wanted, I realized that I don't want to do sleepovers. I know that is something you enjoy, but it isn't something that I want. I know that's very hard to hear, and I can imagine that it's very upsetting. I want to emphasize that I want to spend time with you in ways that I can be comfortable with and emotionally present for. I would still like to plan occasional sister days to spend together.

"I know you want to stay after family dinners to hang out. Out of respect for my husband and his emotional needs, which I have not been taking into consideration previously, I would ask that you head out at the same time as everyone else.

"I am not available by phone after 8pm. Please do not call after then. Unless we have discussed a call at a set time, I don't answer my phone after 5pm so that I can give my full attention and emotional energy to my husband and the kids. You are welcome to text me.

"I want to be able to help support you in your recovery and healing, and I want to be someone who you can talk to comfortably, but as I said before, I don't feel that I can emotionally be able to be there in a crisis situation. I have to be able to be emotionally present for my husband and the kids, and as difficult as it is to step away from that role of rescuer, you deserve professional help in those instances.

"I know you want to be able to babysit the kids, but I have to respect my husband's comfort levels as their father. We are not comfortable with it at this time.

"I love you and I want our relationship to be able to last. I am proud of how hard you have been working to receive help, and I think you did the right thing in reaching out for help when you needed it."

[JNChell]

You’ve put a lot of thought into that. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I sense some anxiety from your end. That much info might be too much for her. If she is BPD, she will storm out of the room if this is done in person, or have a meltdown while reading it. Condense it a lot. Remember, when it comes to things like this, BPD’s have child minds. That part that never properly developed in their brain.

Maybe it could simply be something like this. “As the children get older, hubby and I are finding that we really have our hands full. (Maybe describe some reasons why). Random visits make it hard to keep the routine in place that is necessary for H and I are trying to manage. I love you and I care about you. In saying saying that, I would appreciate it if you would wait to come over until you’re invited.”

That’s probably not the perfect way to address her, but maybe a start?

[SteelGeraniums]

That's a very good point. I could definitely condense it into the two big points that need immediate address - ending sleepovers (the doozy), and not lingering after family events. So something like:

"I want to be an emotionally healthy and supportive sister and build a long lasting, healthy relationship that encourages you to be independent and self-reliant. I also need to respect the emotional needs of myself and my family, and establish boundaries. For that reason, I need to be honest with you and tell you that I don't want to continue to do monthly sleepovers. Also, it is important for you to head home with the rest of the family after family events."

Perhaps I can save some of the positive explanations at the beginning to address inevitable concerns/defensiveness/sadness on her part afterwards? I can wait until another time to address/clarify the other boundaries, which have already kind of been addressed previously. I am a wordy person, so having another perspective is so helpful! Thank you!

[JNChell]

I want to be an emotionally healthy and supportive sister and build a long lasting, healthy relationship that encourages you to be independent and self-reliant.

She’ll most likely see this as a put down which = meltdown. Try to keep her out of it as much as you can. The less you bring her up, the less ammo you give her. Does that make sense? You know her the best. Anything said about her can be made to hurt her from her POV. Nothing good will come from that. Try to make the explanation all about your family and home life. Be honest, but try not to include her in your explanation.

[SteelGeraniums]

What about this? Stealing a line out of Randi Kreger's section on limit setting:

"We’ve talked about boundaries before, but I’ve come to realize I’ve been giving you mixed messages, and that wasn’t fair to either of us. I want to be a supportive sister and build a long lasting, healthy relationship. As the kids get older, I also need to respect my need for space so that I have emotional energy for them and my husband. I enjoy spending time together, but I don't want to continue to do monthly sleepovers, and my husband and I agree that it's best if everyone heads home after family events are done."

Thank you for the feedback. Sorry for all the modifications, it's just not a conversation I have much experience with (at least, not doing it well).

[Ouch9999]

Great timing for me to see Steel Geranium's thread this morning! I'm also drafting an email to my BPD sister to try to establish some boundaries and gain some healing space for myself and my family.

JNChell's comment that "The less you bring her up, the less ammo you give her" really resonates with me, and the concept of keeping it concise. It seems like 'less is more' in this situation. I would also be careful not to place to much emphasis on doing this for your husband, because she may just start blaming him for everything? I would keep coming back to doing this for yourself.

I also really appreciate the reminder that the BPD will have a kind of...primitive (I think JNChell said "childlike"?) interpretation, no matter what. That makes me realize that I need to re-focus my draft email.

It also helps me to know that someone else is trying to get through this at this moment! 

[JNChell]

Hey, SG, that sounds pretty good and effective. I do agree with Ouch9999. Don’t include your husband in the explanation. Remove as many variables as possible while still getting your message across. I know that this is a team effort for you and hubby, but damage control is at the forefront of this if you want things to go as smoothly as possible given a BPD situation. I applaud you for caring about your sister the way that you do. This stuff is hard to navigate and it’s doubly hard to not form a hard bias when these folks can be so hurtful and damaging. You’ve got this. 

[SteelGeraniums]

JNChell, thank you for helping with the wording! I know this won't be pretty, so concise and easy to convey quickly is really helpful. Definitely adjusted it to focus on what I need and not bring my husband into this.

Ouch9999, glad to know I'm not alone! I'm having to remind myself over and over that if this were a mentally healthy person, I wouldn't be experiencing these anxieties, and wouldn't need to worry about an extreme reaction, so her reaction is not a reflection of what I'm doing. Good for you for putting your needs first and giving yourself room to heal. 

I just can't believe that I'm here having to plan for the real possibility that she's going to be suicidal again just because I don't want to do sleepovers. It sounds so outlandish, but that's BPD for you!

[SteelGeraniums]

Question - what would be better, email or phone call? I feel like if I email, it at least gives her room to not feel that she needs to respond right away. But then again, she'll probably call anyways. But if I call, I may or may not be able to get through the whole thought before she breaks down.

[JNChell]

My vote would be an email. It provides space.

[Ouch9999]

I agree that email allows for more space, and it ensures that you get the words out the way you want them. And also, if you call, then something about your tone of voice or inflection can add to how she hears your message.

Sorry you're having to navigate this. It's exhausting and consuming. Like you said, with anyone else, stopping sleepovers wouldn't be a big deal, but here we are!

Let us know how it goes.

[SteelGeraniums]

So a rather drastic change - she was back in the hospital, and now her university is talking about sending her home early. I was ok with the idea of her being here for family events in December, but right now, being sent home this soon after leaving, with no mental health help out here (doesn't start until December), and in the state she's in, I can't do it. I can't put my kids through the mess of having her here a complete wreck and draining me. And I 100% know that my husband isn't ok with her being here at all right now. And I have to respect his mental health needs. He lost his dad to suicide 2 years ago in November. He needs space.

I'm planning to send this out to her today:

"I wanted to email you so you didn't feel put on the spot. I know we’ve talked about boundaries before, but I’ve come to realize I’ve been giving you mixed messages, and that wasn’t fair to either of us. I want to build a long lasting, healthy relationship. I also need to respect my need for space so that I have emotional energy for my family, especially as the kids get older.

"To respect that need, for the time being, I ask that you refrain from coming over. I will let you know when I am comfortable with visits again.

"I know this is a big and painful change. I hope that I can continue to show you that I care in other healthy ways."

[SteelGeraniums]

My MIL actually helped me with the wording. Taking the focus away from her.

"I wanted to email you so you didn't feel put on the spot. I care about you very much, and I want to build a long lasting, healthy relationship. I am also in an emotionally difficult place and need to respect my need for space so that I have emotional energy for my family.

"To respect that need, for the time being, I ask that you refrain from coming over. I don't feel I'm emotionally able to help at this time. I will let you know when I'm in a better place for visits.

"I hope that I can continue to show you that I care in other healthy ways."

[Ouch9999]

I like the revision very much. It feels balanced, says what you need it to, and is still compassionate to both you and her.

Still, it's a lot of pressure on you to have to say it now, sooner than you were expecting to, on the eve of the anniversary of your father-in-law's death, and just as she's coming out of the hospital. It's a lot for everyone.

You indicated that there's no mental health options for her near home? Ugh. I wonder if maybe they could make an exception since she is just coming out of (or may be still in) crisis mode?

[SteelGeraniums]

Thankfully the anniversary of my FIL's passing isn't until next month, but it's still close. The problem is, all the therapists here are booked out pretty far, even for severe cases. She has one scheduled already, but that won't be until December. So her only real option would be nothing or crisis care.

I'm holding off on sending the email because there's still the possibility she'll stay. Her pastor here is making the case to the school that she doesn't have a solid support system here as compared to at school. We'll see. But I am feeling less anxious about needing to set this limit if I have to. It will really depend on how I'm doing when she comes back.

[SteelGeraniums]

She's in a different hospital now, so I sent the email off and I will also tell her if I get a call from her, so she can process it in a safe place. I get anxiety attacks every time she calls. I need this space for her to get help and me to heal. And I need to be realistic that she might never change. I just hope and pray this hospital keeps her longer than the last one did. She needs intensive care right now.

[Methuen]

"I wanted to email you so you didn't feel put on the spot. I care about you very much, and I want to build a long lasting, healthy relationship. I am also in an emotionally difficult place and need to respect my need for space so that I have emotional energy for my family. To respect that need, for the time being, I ask that you refrain from coming over. I don't feel I'm emotionally able to help at this time. I will let you know when I'm in a better place for visits.  I hope that I can continue to show you that I care in other healthy ways." I like this.  It's supportive, it's compassionate, it's honest, it's simple, and it puts the emphasis on her and you.

I just can't believe that I'm here having to plan for the real possibility that she's going to be suicidal again just because I don't want to do sleepovers.

I can hear your frustration.  I'm guessing you are very aware that being suicidal is a symptom of mental illness, and wouldn't really be about a "sleepover".  But it probably "feels" awful to have to find a compassionate way to say "no sleepovers" in her current medical situation.  This however, is outside your control.  What is in your control is looking after the well-being of your own household.   I'm wondering if perhaps your sister has tried to make the people around her feel responsible for her feelings, including feelings of suicide?  Part of the illness, if the answer is yes. This is just a super gentle and supportive reminder that you are not responsible for her suicidal feelings.  I would like to suggest you find a way to re-think the quote above, in a way that is more helpful to you.  Maybe something like: It feels like an impossible situation to have a suicidal sister whose emotional needs could overwhelm and overtake the needs of myself, my husband, and my children when she visits our home.  I am not qualified to manage her medical needs, and our household right now isn't in a position to host her visits.  This isn't something you would say to her or even anyone else, it's just about how you are thinking, because how you think affects how you feel. It gives you permission to feel your own feelings and needs, and acknowledge them.  I think it also kind of restores your need to have autonomy over what goes on in your household..  Maybe it could help so that you don't feel so powerless against your sister's emotional well-being?  Personally, I've done a lot of work in the last year on my own "thinking", and found it quite helpful.  Not sure if this could also be helpful to you.

[SteelGeraniums]

Methuen,  your perspective helped a lot, thank you!

It feels like an impossible situation to have a suicidal sister whose emotional needs could overwhelm and overtake the needs of myself, my husband, and my children when she visits our home.  I am not qualified to manage her medical needs, and our household right now isn't in a position to host her visits.

This right here really helps to put a lot of my nebulous thoughts into words. This is exactly why I've chosen to stop in person visits and limit other contact for the time being.

I'm working with my therapist on distress tolerance when it comes to other people's reactions to my boundaries. I have a lot of fear that comes up when I need to say no and step away from an unhealthy situation, so I'm hoping to learn how to better cope with that and maintain my boundaries.