She's not sorry- "wanted them to feel hurt"

[Notwendy]

My mother has all the characteristics of BPD but I have always wondered if there was some aspect of ASPD about her as she seems to enjoy manipulating people for no reason, other than she likes to do it.

Lately when we have been speaking, she is recalling situations with people. She will say she was angry, and acted really mean to them because- she wanted them to hurt, she wanted them to feel hurt. She's not regretful or sorry, or even empathetic. She did it on purpose.

Yes, she has a legacy of abusive behavior to her family members. From the way she recounts what she does when she's mad at someone "wants them to hurt" and the things she did were calculated, I realize at least some of this was purposeful.

This is different from inadvertantly causing hurt when being angry- I think we've all done or said hurtful things at times "in the moment" and then later, feel remorse for what we said or did. I also had the idea that the person with BPD, when in a rage, was somewhat out of control and felt some remorse or shame afterwards.

My mother is elderly and a part of me wonders if these stories are a sort of confession, get this off her back, or is she revealing her true nature to me -since I have learned to not be so reactive to her and it may feel she is in a safer space to do so. I don't know. But it's also quite chilling to know- that when she was being hurtful  it was purposeful, she wanted to do it, and I don't think she has any empathy or remorse for it.

[bethanny]

Notwendy,

I think I recall a long while back sharing in a discussion with you and some others of struggling to assess the degree of awareness of our disordered parents in terms of their conscious hurtfulness.

This newness of your mother remarking on moments in the past whereby she was deliberately hurtful is a lot for you to take in now and to process.  Maybe she is part ASP. 

I do get the sense from the BPD books that there is something irrational in the rage and cruelty that seems to erupt from such a disordered person rather than a premeditated cruelty.  At least initially.  I think once a paranoid anger is triggered then there is more thoughtful punishment, but I think that is also more irrationally inspired than plotted. Hmmmm.

But the depths of this disorder are indeed mysterious and hyper-confusing, especially for those of us who from a tender age were bouncing off the proverbial walls trying to find some means of control or at least temporary psychic refuge.

What I found especially crazymaking growing up was my mother never acknowledged her ambushes of extreme cruelty and invalidation of me.  She acted as if they had never happened.  No matter the size of her explosion.  She would later carry on as if she had not said the most devastating things to me. 

I learned it was not safe to bring up those moments of cruelty when my mother seemed more in a "safe zone" because she would immediately turn back into "mean mommy" and then I was verbally abused some more. 

She never ever acknowledged or apologized for anything she said that was traumatizing.  Then she went back to her "role" of playing the "devoted" and "put upon" mother.  If I kept focusing and serving her needs I could keep the angry mean mommy at bay as much as possible though the older I got it seemed the leash she had me on got shorter.

It felt like my mother was a multiple personality.  There were two and they didn't seem to know about each other.  I often wondered which one was real.  If the mean mommy was what my real mother thought of me.  Or the nicer mommy had some degree of respect and love for me independent of the crazed one.

I also framed my mother's bouts of cruelty as the result of extreme stress being married to an alcoholic husband.  I imagined if my dad ever did stop drinking, my mother would no longer be crazy mean at times.  This was less frightening than believing there was something so disturbed within her.

My father lost his mother when young and had a harsh childhood.  He became an alcoholic during my childhood. 

He was very lovable with people outside the family.  With his children he was moody and critical and at times explosive.  He seemed to have no capacity to understand that children were not as skilled as adults.  It bordered on stupidity his rage when one of us couldn't perform some task around the house.

Sometimes with my mother he was nasty but he feared her more than he did us and I think he was jealous of us and resentful of our natural neediness.

Sometimes he was cheerful but it was often short-lived.

When he had been drinking he really unloaded his anger at her and she at him.  And anyone else who penetrated his drunken consciousness then. The older I got the more I was pulled into their fights.

I remember with a therapist long ago sharing about my father's conversational cruelty to me and probably my brothers and she insisted it was mean-spirited and deliberate.  It was a strange discussion I recall.  I kept pointing out to her there was something so narcissistic and childlike in his cruelty that was breathtaking.  There was a flat-footed innocence to it. Like riding on a fast roller coaster.  Long distance phone calls with him were especially trying.

He would suddenly say something so ugly and critical and then immediately start talking about something innocuous in a pleasant way as if he had not just stunned you with a low blow.  Like being tasered and as you are gasping for breath the person who just tasered you seems totally unaware how much he had just seemingly and gratuitously hurt you.  Something unconscious about it.

It seemed important to the therapist to get me to see this wasn't unconscious on his part. I don't think I wrapped my head around what she was pushing me to accept ultimately.

After my estrangement from the family ended, when I was around my parents it was in a detached and protective mode on my part.  My mother had survived a stroke and would have two more before she passed on.  She was cold for a while after I reconnected with the family but would never acknowledge the ten year estrangement or discuss it.  Also, after her second stroke she wasn't capable of sophisticated conversations verbally and often mentally.

My father continued his drinking over these years.  I felt guilty I lived at that point far away from them and only came for visits. Fortunately my brothers could afford to hire day nurses to help my mother with her disability.  It haunted me that she was alone so often with my active alcoholic father.

I had been raised by her that it was a daughter's duty to serve her mother, but I had already sacrificed my mental health trying to do that on her terms the first half of my life.

Before my estrangement I was expected to spend a lot of time with my parents and was a regular witness to the ferocious fights between them on weekends especially, when my father drank most.  What they said to each other was so vicious.  I wondered if my father remembered what was said since he was so drunk. I am sure he must have at least some of it. 

After my mother passed on I remember my father referring to my mother as a "saint" when we were alone together.  It stunned me.  My mother certainly played that role in our primary and secondary family but certainly my dad knew she was no saint, just as I knew she was no saint the way she treated me when she was in the witch mode, one on one.  And I had witnessed her as no saint to him.

I wasn't brave enough to explore my father's referral to her as a "saint".  That would have been acknowledging so much reality that had been endured and denied by all of us.  I never tried for that level of honesty with my either parent after my estrangement.

Maybe that was my loss.  But I forgive myself for being self-protective.

Anyway, thanks for this focus, notwendy.

I don't know what to tell you. Confounding sorting through the behavior for sure.

Best,
Bethanny
 

[Notwendy]

Hi bethany-
Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I also am not able to bring up the things my mother did to me, or anything she did for that matter. It doesn't go very well and I learned long ago to not even go there.

But now she is bringing some things up- not about close family members but people who are close to her, and she seems quite aware of what she is doing and seems to get something out of it- like if she can make them hurt, she feels better.

Some things she does are due to being in an irrational rage but other times they are quite calculated and she seems to enjoy manipulating people.

She meets all criteria for DSM borderline and mostly 2 of the ASPD ones - lack of remorse and deceitfulness. She deliberately lies- all the time and seems to enjoy it. She seems to have no empathy and no remorse.

How do I react to this? I think you have summarized it well- it helps me to forgive myself for my self protective actions. It really feels bad to not have the expected relationship one would have with an elderly mother. However I don't have the expected relationship with a mother of any age.

It's one thing to deal with someone who is in less control of their actions or words- it's well known that sometimes people say or do things in a moment of anger that they would not do otherwise. This doesn't absolve them of being accountable for their actions, but often they feel remorseful and even in the case of BPD where they won't say or do something to apologize, one reason is due to shame.

It's different when there is no remorse and the person does not regret it, and it was deliberate. But this is her Karma to contend with, not mine. It does make it easier to forgive myself for protecting myself from her actions.

[pursuingJoy]

This is a really interesting thread. Most of what we read is focused on pwBPD's blow-ups not being premeditated but a lack of impulse control rooted in excessive and irrational fear.

The fact that she admits openly that she wanted them to hurt does, to me, indicate a level of safety with you. Do you think on some level that she does understand that her behavior is outside the norm, and in order to understand her behavior, it's easier to visualize herself as a villain rather than a wounded child?

[Notwendy]

It's so hard to know with her. She's hard to understand and also, she lies- a lot. It's just that this one seems to be consistent. True or not? I don't have any way of really knowing. Also, I don't think she's ever going to be truly revealing to me. She doesn't put her cards on the table like that. She likes to be in control and making sure others are not "in the know" is part of that.

I have mentioned before that the deceitfulness has been the main reason that a relationship with her- beyond being cordial- is impossible. I know that one is purposeful. I have seen her do it with others. She does it with me as well, and so I can not trust her. I don't know if she's ever telling me the truth or not.

But her admittance that "she wanted them to hurt" in addition to the deliberate lying and manipulating is quite interesting.

She does not engage in criminal behavior though. She can be quite cold and mean.

Was she hurt at some point? I have suspected she was sexually abused as a child or young teen, but nobody in her family would ever talk about it if it did happen. I wonder about that from some of her behavior. Her extended family is narcisistic, but I have not seen antisocial traits and my mother seems to be the most seriously affected.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi notwendy,

Don't have much time as I am at work,  but I wanted to post this article on a research study done on interpersonal traits across personality disorders. Very interesting read:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201711/the-eight-basic-qualities-in-all-personality-disorders%3famp

[zachira]

Notwendy,
I have read your posts and threads for the last 3 years. I have often wondered if your mother might have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It took me a long time to sort out what kind of personality disorders certain family members have. I learned a few months ago that people with BPD often have no empathy part of the time and too much empathy other times. This certainly fits my mother and brother. People with NPD can be capable of cognitive empathy which they use to manipulate others to get what they want, and are incapable of affective empathy, the ability to actually feel or understand what another person is feeling. My sister has NPD, always seeking revenge on those who do not lick her boots. I have found Dr. Ramani's youtube videos on narcissism extremely informative and helpful. Figuring out if someone has NPD can be quite challenging especially if they are a covert narcissist, and only show their grandiosity to those closest to them. I was terribly hurt when I realized that the accelerating cruelty of my sister towards me which continues to get worse, was deliberate and calculated, and not part of just being emotionally dysregulated in the moment. I don't recall you ever describing your mother being kind to you. You are wonderful to your mother and have great boundaries with her, to protect yourself and your children.  

[formflier]

How many conversations has your Mom "revealed things" like this?

Are you able to raise a topic/person that she talked about and explore it further?

Have you been able to ask her if she would do it differently...in a curious way?

Have you had conversations with any of these people (are they joint acquaintances)\
 
Not really sure of the flavor of these conversations but I would think a way to safely put your toe in the water is "Gosh Mom, sometimes I look back on conversations with Jane and wish I had handled it differently, do you ever feel that way?"  or "What do you think about those now?""

I too think that these revelations are coming from a place of "safety".

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Zachira- I agree there are strong NPD aspects to my mother and I have considered it as well. Her family is also narcisistic and it would fit with that.  However she's had additional behaviors such as suicidal behavior, mood instability, paranoid ideation, eating disorder- these fit better with BPD. But we know these conditions can overlapp.


I am sorry you too have experienced the kind of calculated cruelty with NDP. I have read about that some and sociopathic behavior can be part of that spectrum as well.

Whatever it is, I haven't heard this kind of admittance from her. I have heard glimpses of it from time to time though when she says " I really fooled them" or something like that. I have wondered if she was ASPD but haven't heard this much admittance to her actions as this.

One idea- she rarely does or says something to me without another motive. I often don't know about that, but later I find out. I can't assume she isn't saying or doing something with some plan in mind that I don't know about.

I have become less reactive to her. She may be letting these things out to test my reaction.

The other one is that I have noticed, now that she's older, she's having elder moments. Not dementia, she's sharp as a tack but she's older now. I know that elderly people can lose their "filter" a bit and perhaps she's less guarded now or possibly less concerned.

[Notwendy]

FF, I am not at a point where I want to try to get further into her thinking with her. I know from experience it's best to just listen and let her speak. Bringing things up to her isn't productive. It would be interesting but best to not go there.

She's certainly a complicated person.

She's said the "I wanted them to hurt" about 2-3 times in the past couple of weeks.

This is new for her.

I have a hunch it's safety for her as well. I have been working on being non reactive to her, not stirring up drama and I think she has realized that. So for now, I think it is best to let her speak about this kind of thing when she chooses, because asking might get her guard up.

[Notwendy]

I Am Redeemed- thank you for the article. I do think she's a mix of these traits but recognize some as predominant.

Zachira- yes she is also grandiose. Her extended family is as well, but they don't seem as hurtful to others as she is.

Thanks for your kind words. Honestly, I think while we family members who are empathetic may have a difficult time with people with PD's I am grateful to not be like that. I certainly have my own flaws -nobody is perfect-, but I am glad to not be hurtful to others in that way.

[Methuen]

This is an interesting thread.

But now she is bringing some things up- not about close family members but people who are close to her, and she seems quite aware of what she is doing and seems to get something out of it- like if she can make them hurt, she feels better.

Oh yes.  This behavior describes my mom.  When she dysregulates, she makes herself feel better by dumping her "stuff" on her target (usually me since my father passed 15 years ago), but there is no question that doing so gave her "satisfaction".  She "got off" on it.  It was written all over her face.  My sense is that she would ruminate on something, get herself all worked up, and look forward to the explosion and telling someone off.  In that way, it could be called premeditated (because I think she may have anticipated the "fight").  A big fight was how she resolved things to her satisfaction.  I remember as a teenager that she came home from work one day (she was an OR booking nurse), and recounted how she had "told off" one of the surgeons.  She had been complaining about him for a long time in advance of this.  I remember it well, because that was the moment when it hit me that I wasn't the only person she could rage at.  The fact that she had the gumption to rage off at a superior and a surgeon wasn't lost on me.  I always tried to be the "perfect" child, and this just reinforced my need to be perfect.  It also wasn't lost on me how "proudly"  she recounted the episode.  I don't know if that lines up in any way with what you are talking about NotWendy.  Maybe not?  When I think back on her rages with me, there was always a fire in her eye (as well as her speech) that told me I was the horrible villain, and she certainly felt entitled to her behavior.  She always felt better after one of these episodes.  Then all was swept under the carpet, and nobody could ever speak of it again.  It was done for her, and that was all that mattered.

What is different with my mom, is that she is not recounting particular episodes from her past. I can't see her doing that at this stage.  She is more likely to be proud about it in the moment, but then it's done, and in the past.  I wonder, could your mom be doing this to make herself feel better, as in building up a false sense of "strength"?  

The "satisfaction" I spoke to (which she would get from dumping her rage on someone) and which she "got off on" made her feel better; it was the antidote to mom's dysregulation.  She could never see, or care, how hurtful it was to other people.  Never an apology, because she never had any fault in anything, therefore had nothing to apologise for.

Lately when we have been speaking, she is recalling situations with people. She will say she was angry, and acted really mean to them because- she wanted them to hurt, she wanted them to feel hurt. She's not regretful or sorry, or even empathetic. She did it on purpose.

This doesn't surprise me.  My mom has had this throughout her life.  She wanted them to feel hurt because she felt hurt by something they did (even if it was assumed or imagined).  If she felt hurt, it was a "fact" for her.  Her feelings were facts.  There was never any desire to get at the truth (i.e. someone else's truth) and resolve a miscommunication.  If she was hurt, she had to hurt back. That was just her normal.  The more she hurt the other person, the better.  That ended the problem for her.  Thankfully, this didn't happen all the time.  There were good periods.

What she didn't do to my knowledge, was purposely sabotage another person unless she had a reason not to like them because they hurt her.  The reply to them could be irrational though.  For example, she had a sister who as a child didn't like a girl.  One day she told the girl to close her eyes and open her mouth for a surprise.  Then she put a frog in her mouth.  My mom was a child and witnessed that, and to this day I suspect that is where my mom's irrational fear of frogs came from. My mom never did that, but there were plenty of irrational things that she did as a response to her hurt feeling.

As for manipulating people, that is my mom's MO to have her needs met.  I don't think mom manipulates people for the entertainment of it.  Perhaps that is what ASPD is - they get pleasure out of doing it because they can?  

I have always wondered if there was some aspect of ASPD about her as she seems to enjoy manipulating people for no reason, other than she likes to do it.

I think the tricky part of this, is that it could appear to us like there is no reason, but who knows what goes on in their heads?  BPD's seem to be able to hold grudges and drum up and distort events from the past to support whatever bad feeling they are struggling with, so unless they express what is going on in their head verbally, their manipulations and behaviors may seem like they don't have a reason. But maybe they do. If they are jealous of someone, maybe they can justify their antisocial behavior?  This is way beyond my amateur experience, but you are the expert on your mom, and know her best, so you will have the best sense of what "fits" (BPD or ASPD).  

My mom and all her siblings were abused physically, sexually, and emotionally in their FOO.  It is my belief that the emotional abuse was the most damaging for them.  Remarkably, they all married a stable spouse.  All of us cousins are struggling with the effects of intergenerational abuse.  A few of us in our later life  are slowly opening up and talking about it with a cousin we trust, but many/most will never talk about it, for various reasons... I'm grateful for this safe place, and for having a venue to voice shared experiences, and learn from each other.  I like the way we prompt each other to think here.  It's constructive.  I am constantly thinking and learning.  It's a gift to have this community.  Thank you for sharing your question on this post NotWendy.  It's probed me to think deeper for myself.

[formflier]

There is another possibility to consider.

pwBPD likely don't enjoy feeling out of control, so if they rage at someone and then have time to reflect in the future...entirely possible that they then justify that "they had it coming" and "I planned to give it to them" or "I meant to do it"

Who knows?

I do find it interesting that she identifies an emotion in herself and seeks to "impose" that same emotion/feeling on someone else.  (do I kinda have that right?)

Best,

FF

[Methuen]

pwBPD likely don't enjoy feeling out of control, so if they rage at someone and then have time to reflect in the future...entirely possible that they then justify that "they had it coming" and "I planned to give it to them" or "I meant to do it"

This fits with my experience.  It's also their way of never being accountable, because they are incapable of acknowledging any degree of fault...?

[Notwendy]

Yes that would make sense.  She does see things from victim perspective. She feels they deserved it. However, often the "punishment" exceeds the crime, except from her perspective.

She has bragged about "telling people off" usually to get her way,  and seems quite satisfied with herself.  "I really gave it to them- and so they seated me right away" . It's also combined with a sense of grandiosity and entitlement. I once asked her why she makes her home health helpers do things for her that she can easily do and she says things like " I don't want to wait in line, they can deal with that" . Once as a kid we were waiting in line and she lied to get us to the front of the line. She had no remorse for that or consideration that other people were waiting too. Rules like waiting your turn don't apply to her.

She seems to enjoy toying with me too. Maybe she thinks I'm just a sucker to amuse herself with. I don't think she's attached to me in a motherly sense. Zachira- you mentioned I am kind to her. That is mainly based on my own values. I would have a difficult time with myself if I wasn't kind to an elderly parent- but I won't let her mistreat me. I do the best I can with it.

[Cat Familiar]

As my mother’s dementia increased, certain behaviors became more prominent. She never was very honest, in that if given too much change at the store, she wouldn’t return it, and she’d be proud that she got away with it.

But until her mind started slipping, she didn’t actively do anything dishonest. Then I got a call and found out she had stolen the neighbor’s tree, that was in a 15 gallon pot. It was about to be planted, but my mother decided it was on her property (it wasn’t, but no fences in that gated community), and took it.

I had to explain to the neighbor and the police about my mother’s mental decline

From that point, I noticed an increase in lying, which she always did, usually about inconsequential things. I’m not sure how much she ever realized that things she was saying weren’t true.

I could imagine her wanting to hurt people’s feelings to “settle the score” but that was something that was always within her—but in her younger years she wouldn’t have acknowledged it, nor would have wanted to be held accountable.

.

[Notwendy]

Cat, I am starting to wonder if something has changed too. Not dementia but some kind of senior moments. One of the stories she told me about happened decades ago. Something current reminded her of it.

So I am wondering if she's had some changes due to age.

I will be keeping a watch on this. Fortunately her home health helpers would call me if they observed any major changes.

[beatricex]

hi Notwendy,
My Mom is also a braggart, and it has increased over the years.  The level she is willing to disclose what she's done, however, depends on the degree of mischief.

I only get parts of the story.

For example, many years ago, a neighbor filed a restraining order against my Mom and it was granted.  I heard about it almost immediately, but the story was told as a "ha ha, this is funny, we got her" story.  Apparently this neighbor (a young woman) had a dog that barked...one day in a discussion with my parents about it, the neighbor stated "dogs have rights too!"  Apparently, to explain her dog's barking.  The only part of the story I got to hear was my Dad ended up in the neighbor's driveway, honking his horn loudly...and (so the story goes), my Dad said something along the lines of "my car likes to honk, and it has rights too."  So, my Mom drug my Dad into it, but somehow only my Mom was served with an order of harrassment.  I still don't know exactly what my Mom did, as this leaves out my Mom's harrassment.

and..not really funny, if you think about it.  

Fast forward to now.  My mom nearly always tells me what she does to other people, the only difference is she now confides in me, and tells me not to tell my Dad.  Personally, I hate it.  In some ways, I think it is a way to make me feel responsible for her mischief, which I don't agree with, as I'm not her keeper.  And, as usual, I'm acting like the adult, and she's the kid.  Now when she starts to tell me this stuff I just cut her off and walk away.  

A part of me also wonders how much she projects onto me.  I can imagine her telling some of these stories and inserting my name not hers (maybe when telling it to her friends?)

I also often wonder about the times my Mom raged and got physically abusive, an example being the black eye I received in Highschool when I looked at her wrong.  Since the physical abuse was directed at me, does she recall it (like with my sisters) and they all get a good laugh, and the story gets told as a "ha ha" story, since "I deserved it?"  mind boggling really

b

[zachira]

I think as disordered people age, they are less inhibited and more unable to hide disturbing behaviors that in the past would have caused more people to see them for who they really are. I was terribly distressed with how badly my mother treated her home health care workers who were so kind to her, sending them home early and cheating them out of their wages by telling them: "Get out". Maybe having our mothers with BPD more open about how mean they are to others as they age, really hurts because it reminds of us of how we were treated as children and how we are being treated now, by our mothers who are the people who are supposed to love us unconditionally.

[formflier]

I've been getting educated about dementia (specifically vascular dementia that my Mom has) and blood flow to the brain (and different areas) has so much to do with what they remember/percieve.

This can change on different days as well.  If the short term part of the brain slows down then lots of older memories get accessed and seem very "fresh".  In extreme cases they will no longer remember they are "long ago" memories and think that 40 years ago is right now.

Very complex stuff.

Oh...and those changes affect emotion and mood.  So..no surprise that older people (especially with dementia) will start doing things they never have before.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Here’s a good overview of dementia: https://www.seniorlink.com/blog/dementia-symptoms-memory-loss-mood-and-personality-changes-and-other-common-symptoms-of-dementia?hs_amp=true&__twitter_impression=true

[Notwendy]

Thanks Cat and FF,

So far, she's really got none of the signs of dementia, other than perhaps a slight change in personality, so time will tell. She's still sharp as ever, and manipulative. I don't wish to be suspicious of everything she does or says but I am frequently caught off guard with her, so I'm hesistant to take her at face value either.

But only time will tell. I will keep you all posted and appreciate all responses.

[formflier]

I don't wish to be suspicious of everything she does or says but I am frequently caught off guard with her, so I'm hesitant to take her at face value either.

Very wise. 

Also the skills you have learned here and in your relationships translate well to dealing with dementia (should that ever show up).  Ability to reason goes down, so focus on the emotion and tone.   Validate and distract rather than "argue".  I could go on.

Switching gears:  I've never studied anti social behavior/pd much...but my impression is that they "plot" and "scheme" without remorse.  (am I kinda on track?)

Compared to pwBPD that "react" to a known or unknown emotional trigger without remorse (usually) or they can justify it later.

Do you view your Mom differently when you consider there might be something different than BPD?

Best,

FF

[madeline7]

Hi NotWendy,
My uBPDm is also an elderly widow. She has always been dysregulated, but things seem worse, if that's even possible since she became a widow, and then have gotten even more challenging since Covid. My uBPDm is cognitively intact, as far as memory goes, and since she has been more isolated due to Covid, she has "lost" her ability to act out by "cancelling visits and outings" which was one of her go to moves. The family now had "permission" by the state mandated SIP orders to no longer be a pawn in that particular game. This has caused more dysregulation, and now she is in a period of pleasant nostalgia followed by silent treatments. It is all so confusing, yet I do think she is in control. I firmly believe she is Borderline, but there is so much overlap with other characteristics like Narcissism, anxiety and depression, so we, the recipients of her acting out are subjected to a wide range of maladaptive beviors.

[Notwendy]

Do you view your Mom differently when you consider there might be something different than BPD?

Such an interesting question. I know she has BPD- it's her primary diagnosis and the one she fits all the criteria for. I also am aware of overlapp so NPD and ASPD were something I was aware of too. But pure ASPD would not include the dysregulations and suicide threats and other aspects of her behaviors which BPD does. If she were just about hurting other people she would not do these things.

I've made a sort of peace with myself about her past behaviors. Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting.

I know there's a reason for that "honor your parents" but also believe it doesn't include allowing them to emotionally abuse me, this enables them to do bad things and so in a sense does not honor her to allow that. However I do think this means not seeking to do any harm in return and speaking to her respectfully when I am with her, and treating her kindly while also holding my boundaries. This is easier said than done, but I try. So while holding a boundary might result in her being angry with me, I try hard to maintain a focus on my intentions. "Honor your parents" probably means different things to each of us. I have to hold on to my view of values.

While I feel I need to know about her actions, I also believe there's a higher judge than me so it's not up to me to do that.