The timing of this couldn't be worse

[RestlessWanderer]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347729.0


The timing of this couldn’t be worse. Christmas for a 7yo is such a magical time. I’ve managed to keep that spark alive, but his mom can’t help but blame me for this. I am following the rules set forth by the judge in the TRO so that neither one of us violates it. I won’t do anything to set her up to break it, and I won’t break it either. But this happening for Christmas makes it so much harder. Both times that she has talked to my son during the set forth time, she tells S that I’m being mean. She tells him that I’m just listening to my mom. She hasn’t ever apologized to him for screaming at him or throwing the remotes at him. She has told him both times that she will bring up gifts or that he and I can go to where she is so that he can get gifts and give her a hug. Setting me up to be the villain. When I can I record the calls and get video of her or the items she has brought. Her inability to follow the conditions are making this so hard on my son. If she would respect the order and just talk to him about how he’s doing it wouldn’t be so hard.

[I Am Redeemed]

This is probably her way of trying to emotionally manipulate you into dropping the order- going through your son to get you to feel guilty. My ex did the same thing. He didn't outright try to physically defy the order (at first), instead, he played on my guilt about keeping him apart from our son to get me to go against the order. In his mind that would be easier than playing by the rules because he would be getting what he wanted quicker. He didn't want to go through courts and restrictions to visit with his son. And he also told our son that he wanted to see him but I would not let him, and also said that I was listening to friends and family who were convincing me to do this.

It really sucks, and especially at the holidays.

Good job recording these conversations and let your son's therapist know about the content of her interactions with him. It could be considered emotional abuse.

[GaGrl]

How specific is the RO about what is allowed during phone calls? If she is to refrain from any discussion of the RO during allowed calls, and she is speaking to your son about it anyway, she is violating the RO, and you can cut off the call.

Talk to your lawyer ASAP about what needs to be done.

[RestlessWanderer]

How specific is the RO about what is allowed during phone calls? If she is to refrain from any discussion of the RO during allowed calls, and she is speaking to your son about it anyway, she is violating the RO, and you can cut off the call.

Talk to your lawyer ASAP about what needs to be done.

That is exactly what it says. And I had to end the call because of it today. Which was very hard on my son. I know that if the tables were turned I would not dare do anything to violate the order. The recordings will back this up. She  also insists on talking to me. I respond only by saying that I won’t violate the order and had to hang up because she didn’t stop.

[formflier]

Definitely report this to your L and ask what else you should do to "report" the violations of the temp order.

Make sure you have extra digital copies of the proof.

Most likely wise to inform your child's therapist that you will be needing/paying for extra time so they can view the video and prep a letter to the court about the damage this kind of talk has on your son.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

This is probably her way of trying to emotionally manipulate you into dropping the order- going through your son to get you to feel guilty.
How do you think this plays out in their minds? Do you think it’s a conscious strategy, or an unconscious natural manipulation?

My ex did the same thing. He didn't outright try to physically defy the order (at first), instead, he played on my guilt about keeping him apart from our son to get me to go against the order. In his mind that would be easier than playing by the rules because he would be getting what he wanted quicker. He didn't want to go through courts and restrictions to visit with his son.

And he also told our son that he wanted to see him but I would not let him, and also said that I was listening to friends and family who were convincing me to do this.
Almost exactly how both calls have played out, substitute friends with my mom. After this I simply asked him if my mom or I are doing anything to make him think that we are being mean. His eyes and ears told him the truth. And I refuse to badmouth her, especially to him.

It really sucks, and especially at the holidays.

Good job recording these conversations and let your son's therapist know about the content of her interactions with him. It could be considered emotional abuse.

[I Am Redeemed]

I think it is a natural go-to strategy for them because they have maladaptive ways of getting their needs met. I also think they truly believe what they are saying. My ex, to this day three years later after a years-long drug binge and being thrown in jail for felony theft, called his mom a few weeks ago whining about how not fair it is that it was his birthday and his son's birthday (Dec 8 and Dec 7, respectively) and he wasn't getting to see him.

He simply always has refused to admit that his behavior is responsible for our marriage falling apart. He has always downplayed any of his abusive actions. Apparently, he truly believes that I am in the wrong for not letting him around his son unsupervised even after he caused serious physical injuries to me and endangered our son by smoking meth in the house.

Be aware that I made the mistake of letting the guilt get to me and I agreed to take my son to see him because of the pressure he put on me. This resulted in him using the visitation time to further emotionally abuse our son and me and ended up with him dong something to my vehicle so it wouldn't start and then assaulting me again.

You are doing the right thing by refusing to violate the order.

I think she has minimized her actions and truly believes you are doing this for no reason. Victim perspective. I also think it is a natural reaction for an emotionally immature person to cast blame elsewhere and try to be "rescued" by the children. If they can get the kids to see them as blameless victims and the other parent as the persecutor, it strengthens their defense against shame- which can feel like death to a disordered person.

[formflier]

It's unlikely that she is "thinking it through" or "plotting".

  I also think they truly believe what they are saying.

You also might substitute "feel" for "believe" as in they "feel it is true".

 

You are doing the right thing by refusing to violate the order. 

And also doing the right thing by recording and monitoring every moment of her communications.

You never know when your L will need "ammunition" to prove different things.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

You also might substitute "feel" for "believe" as in they "feel it is true".

Yes, that's more what I was trying to say.  Feelings are facts to them so if they feel like victims, it feels true.

[RestlessWanderer]

FF and Redeemed, what you both are saying makes sense, as it always does. S is starting to show his frustrations with the situation. Poor guy doesn’t understand why he can’t see her, well I think he understands, but he misses her. Plus he knows that she has tons of Xmas gifts for him. In some ways, it’s probably the thought of the gifts that is making it harder for him, he brings that up more than the desire to see her. Thankfully he’s not misbehaving, just getting frustrated quicker than normal  when toys aren’t working or when we aren’t understanding what he’s trying to say or do. We have had plenty of fun and laughs today.

[formflier]

I would encourage you to maximize your sons sleep over the next week or so.  Perhaps also be deliberate about setting up situations where he can successfully play or do things

When do you think the first official supervised visitation will be set up?

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

This is a time to strengthen connection with your son. In those moments, when he is frustrated because the toy isn't working, or he's sad because he can't see his mom, try helping him name those feelings- without offering statements such as "I know your mom really loves you" or "mommy is just not herself/is sick right now/is whatever."

You're doing good by not badmouthing her. Just make sure you don't make excuses for her, either. It's better just to focus on how your son feels and validate- "you feel sad/mad/frustrated/whatever. I'm so sorry you're feeling that way."

Somewhere on this board someone (LnL?) has recommended a book called I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better. It's about effective parenting strategies for raising emotionally resilient children without stepping into the "fixer" role (which we naturally want to do as parents).

[RestlessWanderer]

Good advice FF. I’ve been maintaining a regular bed time since we’ve been staying with my mom.

The hearing is scheduled for Tuesday morning, so we’ll find out then what we can do. There’s no other indication when visits will be.

Redeemed, I tell my son that feeling emotions are ok, no matter what. No emotion is bad. I also tell him that it’s important to remember that even though it’s ok to feel angry or sad, it’s not ok to let those emotions move is to be mean or hurtful. This approach was ok with his therapist.

[GaGrl]

Excellent approach...trust your T.

On Tuesday, be very prepared to have your L address the inappropriate conversations.I

Had there been any thought put into whether your E needs a dual-diagnosis treatment plan. i.e. that there are drug/alcohol issues in addition to the PD, plus the trauma of the accident?

This is so complicated, and so sad. My heart hurts for you.

[defogging]

RW - I am just catching up on this thread now and wanted to let you know that I see an awesome, strong Dad standing up for his son's and his own right to be treated well.  Everyday we all earn our right to have good relationships, and RWw will have to choose how she wants to move forward.  Based on the incident with the police, she seems to have the ability to cooperate.  You should expect nothing less from her towards yourself and your son.  If she can't cooperate - as Waddams and FD said - don't stop, keep that pedal to the metal and create a better life for the two of you.

Don't doubt yourself for a second.  You didn't create this, and you're not responsible for her behavior.  She chooses her behavior, you can't make it better.  You're choosing your behavior, and you're trying to make the holidays the best you can for your son.  I think you're doing a fantastic job in the midst of a difficult situation.  Keep going brother, we're on your side.

[RestlessWanderer]

On Tuesday, be very prepared to have your L address the inappropriate conversations. Most definitely

Had there been any thought put into whether your E needs a dual-diagnosis treatment plan. i.e. that there are drug/alcohol issues in addition to the PD, plus the trauma of the accident?
I’m absolutely convinced of this. I think it may be the best path for her to become fully capable of being a good mother

This is so complicated, and so sad. My heart hurts for you.

[GaGrl]

I am thinking more and more that an extensive (time) and intensive (focused work) dual-diagnosis program  is what your W needs. She needs a detox period, and she needs DBT work with a caring yet firm team that can help her work through her trauma to a place of accountability.

[livednlearned]

Both times that she has talked to my son during the set forth time, she tells S that I’m being mean. She tells him that I’m just listening to my mom. She has told him both times that she will bring up gifts or that he and I can go to where she is so that he can get gifts and give her a hug. Setting me up to be the villain.

It's understandable to be hurt by her villain set-up, especially given all that you sacrificed for S7's safety (and your own).

This type of interaction will replay in a thousand million ways so it's good to get ahead of the bus.

Your wife is going to engage in this new kind of splitting behavior to co-opt S7's reality so it buttresses her own world view (mom is good/victim and dad is bad/villain) and it will be pretty predictable, likely unconscious, and almost certainly unrelenting.

Bill Eddy has a companion book to Splitting called Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Resilient Children that's excellent (imo the nuts and bolts stuff starts chapter 2).

As the reasonable parent you kind of need to deconstruct the high-conflict family dynamic so that you understand how the "culture of blame" has shaped the way your son handles conflict internally (getting ready to apply these lessons both internally and externally in peer relationships).

The three legs of Eddy's approach to counter the splitting behaviors vying for your son's soul: flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behaviors.

You can model these responses to the nail-biter word bombs your addicted/afflicted ex will toss.

This way you can model emotional resilience with S7 whether it's with mom on the phone or watching a show on TV or handling a beef with a friend.

"Why doesn't mom drop your gifts off here? Seems pretty simple to me."

"How about this. I won't open my presents until you get to open yours from mom. It's going to be soo hard. We'll work through this together."

[RestlessWanderer]

I am thinking more and more that an extensive (time) and intensive (focused work) dual-diagnosis program  is what your W needs. She needs a detox period, and she needs DBT work with a caring yet firm team that can help her work through her trauma to a place of accountability.

I agree! I don’t know if the court would mandate that based on my suspicion with no proof. There’s the added difficulty of buy-in. If RWw doesn’t open herself up to the therapy, it will never take hold. Unfortunately that’s been her pattern. Then again the stakes have never been higher.

LovedandLearned, I  like Bill Eddy. I will definitely look for that book.

Tomorrow is the hearing to find out if the judge will grant a long term protective order. I’ve been feeling very anxious today. Who knows what RWw will try to throw at me. Thankfully I have a good attorney that I have faith will be able to handle things well. We will both have about 15 minutes to present our sides. I’ll give an update tomorrow.

[formflier]

I'm pretty sure that Forever Dad made the point in another one of your threads that you should say the bare minimum.

Practice pausing and looking at your attorney for signals or to give him a chance to object.

Hopefully you guys can do a "talk through" prior to the hearing.

Do you know if she will be represented? 

Do you have proof (police report or other proof) of the incident in which your wife forced her way into your home.

What you want to avoid is "RWw did x"...then she says "no i didn't".  Much better to be able to pull out an independent reference in trial, that putting things on hold to sort out the truth.


Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

FF I spoke with my L tonight about those very things. As far as I know RWw is representing herself (NPD trait/overconfidence?). It will be done via webcam due to COVID.
I have an audio recording of the entire incident, which has been entered into evidence. We are sorted 30 minutes for the entire hearing, so it will fly by.
I will prep some notes for myself tonight and try to get a good nights sleep. We get started at 8:45 AM.

[defogging]

I think you're in excellent shape if you have the audio of that incident entered into evidence.  Top that off with you having legal representation and she does not, that really handicaps her.  There is a lot of nuance in legal language and the court process, her going into this hearing without a lawyer is not wise.

Hopefully you can get some sleep.  I know what the night before feels like, just breathe and know everything will be alright.

[RestlessWanderer]

The hearing was this morning. RWw thought it was tomorrow and wasn’t on the zoom until they called her. Because of this she was not prepared at all. She became emotional I suspect due to the prospect of being ruled against. The judge was kind and rescheduled for next Thursday. The judge was getting irritated because RWw kept interrupting. She indicated that she is in the process of obtaining an attorney. The firm she named, according to my attorney, has a reputation of not being very good. My L thinks that will help us.
Due to the extension the judge issued a slightly revised TPO. She was reduced to two calls a week with our son and we are to set up supervised visitations through the state. Due to COVID, these visitations will be via zoom for the time being.

[GaGrl]

She may be losing time and orientation due to alcohol/drug use. If she can't pull herself together to get a lawyer and appear on time next Thursday, make sure your lawyer includes this behavior in your petition. It indicates her unreliability when planning future visitation.

[livednlearned]

Is your wife likely to admit to an attorney that she has a drug problem?

[Cat Familiar]

As hard as it is, RW, I want to validate your choice to protect your son and yourself. 

In case you hadn’t seen this response to Spam from stolencrumbs, I thought I’d post it on your thread. All three of you are dealing with very similar issues.

Hi Spam,
I haven't chimed in on your thread, but I've been following it. There are a lot of similarities to my story--abuse of all kinds, substance abuse, asking me to leave my house, making false allegations, taking money out of joint accounts. Yep to all of that. And I thought and felt a lot of the same things you are. It's a nightmare.

I'm chiming in here mainly to encourage you to think seriously about getting an order of protection. I finally did that a little over a month ago. It was, without a doubt, the single best thing I could've done for myself. Whatever you end up doing or decide you want to do, I think you will benefit from having space to work through things you need to work through, and a PO can help give you that. It's hard to make progress when you're in a constant crisis. I encourage you to do what you need to do to find some space.

In my state, and I assume this is true across the country given that my state is not particularly progressive, it is free to file for an order of protection. I have a lawyer, but I did not use my lawyer to get the order of protection. It is a pretty straightforward process, and you have evidence of abuse. I've also been to a local domestic violence center and they were very helpful about the process. At the very least, find the website of the court that handles POs where you are and download the form. It's a step. 

I was not good at maintaining boundaries, and my wife ran roughshod over them all the time. The PO is the only boundary my wife has managed to not run through (yet.) I worried about what she would do, and I worried about "punishing" her. But it's not about her. It is an order of protection. It's to protect me, and it is doing that. It is protecting me from the constant onslaught of abuse, and it is giving me space to breathe. I hope you can find that same space.

[RestlessWanderer]

I doubt if she will admit that she has a drug problem. She probably thinks she has it under control. I think she’s in denial about the gravity of what she did when she threw two remotes at my son and I. And now she’s just blaming me and trying to get her son back.
Thankfully by doing things this way I can stand behind the law and the truth. Maintaining that POV keeps my conscience clear and I don’t have to feel bad that she is finally facing consequences for her actions.

[RestlessWanderer]

Cat, thanks for sharing that post from stolencrumbs.

Even though I’m just a little over a week in, and feeling anxiety over the unknowns, I can’t help but feel fantastic about the fact that it has been a week free of senseless arguments and emotional blackmail. For the most part. She’s tried. But thanks to the PO and my L, all these darts are just bouncing off. In fact I’m picking up her darts and, without throwing them back, I will use them against her.

[formflier]

What did your lawyer think about the trespassing issue and lease/eviction issue for your Mom?


Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

What did your lawyer think about the trespassing issue and lease/eviction issue for your Mom?

It’s something that we probably won’t be able to work into the TPO hearing. But it will be part of the divorce.