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Author Topic: Should I stay or should I go?  (Read 1075 times)
LizPA

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« on: December 27, 2020, 08:25:58 PM »

This is my first post.  I'm struggling with a decision to leave my BPD husband.  Although I've only recently come to the realization that he has BPD, I've lived with his unpredictable behavior for our entire relationship (married 27 years, two children 16/17).  We are both in our mid 50s, and if it hadn't been for our children, I would have left him many years ago.

I recently started therapy to help me with the logistics of separating from someone with BPD, and like many others that have posted in this discussion group, I'm torn on whether I should officially divorce my spouse. 

Brief history - My husband has always been a quiet, introverted loner, very intelligent, opinionated, sarcastic and is sensitive of his own feelings (not so much everyone else's).  For the first 10yrs. of our relationship, he would suddenly shut-down and become extremely annoyed, agitated (no eye contact or talking) and would treat me like I was his worst enemy.  When I would ask him what's wrong, he would completely lose his temper and leave.  This would be accompanied by slamming doors, throwing things, nasty words, etc..  I would plead with him to tell me what the problem was or what I did to upset him, but that would just make him more enraged at the sight or sound of me, but he would never provide a reason for his rage.  Each episode would lead to many days/weeks of silence and me tip-toeing around him, until one day he just suddenly snaps out of it, usually ending with him "love-bombing" me in the middle of the night (the "reset button") and he would return to the man I loved for a few days/weeks.   At that time I wasn't aware that this behavior was part of a "disorder", so I would blame myself.  It took many years and many more "episodes" before I finally realized that it wasn't me, and that he was either just an assh*** or had a real problem/disorder, but his symptoms didn't fully fit the typical disorders that I was aware of (NP, Bipolar, depression, ADD, etc.).  It wasn't until my therapist recommended I read "stop walking on eggshells..", and "I hate you don't leave me", that I realized that he has been suffering from BPD.  Everything fit, especially the childhood trauma and abandonment.

Fast forward to a few years ago; his emotional instability has gotten worse, he's angry and/or annoyed most of the time.  He quit his job 5 yrs. ago (had this job for 10+ yrs. and just walked out one day [no notice] he just "had enough") and hasn't worked since, refuses to work for someone else; cashed out his IRA and spent it all.  I assume he spent it on vodka and beer because I did not see any of it, I've been supporting us for the past 5yrs.  He continually "blows-up" at me for no reason and, to make things worse, he has become an alcoholic.  Although in the past he could conceal his behavior from the kids, his alcohol fueled episodes have been witnessed by the kids over the past few years, and now they want me to leave him.  Fortunately, there hasn't been any physical abuse so far, but I'm aware that it's always a possibility when he's been drinking.

My dilemma is, how can I leave someone who's "sick", has no friends, family or income?  Especially knowing that this disorder can lead to suicide.  I couldn't live with myself knowing that I contributed to his suffering or demise.  Prior to my realization of his BPD, I had no problem leaving an "assh***" (once my kids were ready), but now I feel a very strong sense of responsibility to do the right thing, and I can not bring myself to strip everything away from the man I love, who is a good person at his core, but has an illness beyond his control.  I'm the only one paying the bills and I can not afford to just move out with the kids/dogs and default on our mortg., which would ruin my credit and put our biggest asset at risk.
I originally thought that maybe an intervention would help, but from everything I've read about BPD that would be the worst thing you could do.  I've viewed Dr. Amador's LEAP video (listen, empathize, agree, partner) regarding getting a loved one into therapy, but I don't think that approach would work coming from me (and I would probably screw up the delivery).  Also, I don't think he would cooperate with a BPD evaluation or ever admit to having BPD (anosognosia) and it would most likely trigger a bigger BPD/drunken episode.  I would not feel safe living with him during this time, but I would still like to give him the opportunity to get help.  I would like some guidance on how to logistically separate from a spouse with BPD, while providing them the opportunity to realize and treat their disorder, without putting the family at risk.
LizPA
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2020, 09:35:42 PM »

Not wanting to break up your family for your children’s benefit has kept you in this marriage, when you might have chosen otherwise had you not been a mother?

You’ve endured a lot of difficult behavior and now you’ve become aware that it fits the pattern of BPD. In addition he now is not supporting himself nor the family and has become an alcoholic.

Your children think you should leave him, but you worry about someone who is disconnected from friends and is not currently supporting himself.

You are not financially able to move out without destroying your credit, and you don’t think he’d be willing to participate in therapy.

So how do you see this working out in years to come?

One of the major reasons that “nons” are unwilling to let consequences happen to people with BPD is that they are codependent or caretakers. Do you think this may apply to you?

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Sab150
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2020, 10:26:46 PM »

My dilemma is, how can I leave someone who's "sick", has no friends, family or income?  Especially knowing that this disorder can lead to suicide.
Excerpt
I feel your pain I really do. I share your dilemma , how do you leave someone who is sick. My situation is different than yours with similar circumstances my wife left me so I am starting to think I was fortunate. She moved  out but won’t let me go I still ride the emotional roller coaster I still deal with the wrath she dishes out.I have tried to walk away but she won’t let me. When she feels me trying to leave she starts to manipulate me usually by swallowing too many pills or sending me pictures of her cutting her self. His has been going on for two years now and I am learning how to handle her how to put boundaries on our relationship and most importantly not to get sucked back in to doing what she wants just because she hurts herself or tries to kill herself, because in the end to answer the question “how do I leave someone who is sick” the answer for me is I don’t. That answer came to me through a lot of soul searching. I just can’t do it. What I am doing isn’t easy at all. There is a lot of pain and heartache watching her do all this to her self. There is a lot of pain dealing with how she treats me and her kids. There isn’t any physical harm to the kids but a lot of rejection  and manipulation that I have to help the kids through.
   All that being said I don’t know what you should do. I am not worried about physical harm, I don’t deal with alcohol abuse. Your safety is the most important thing. It is not your fault if he tries to hurt himself it is not your fault if he has nowhere to go it is not your fault he has no friends. He is sick yes but he is still responsible for his own actions. I have to remember that with my wife. I do know that staying will be really hard, it isn’t easy trying to help someone who doesn’t want the help.
You are in a situation that seems hopeless and impossible no matter what decision you make. I know, I have been there but it will get easier whatever decision you choose to make.and if you choose to leave it doesn’t mean you can’t still try amd help him.
I feel for you I do share your pain you are not alone in this.
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LizPA

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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2020, 02:29:33 PM »

Cat F., thank you for your response.  Yes, I would have left him many years ago if we didn't have children, back when I thought he was just an a**hole (note: at that time he was working and supporting the family, so I could be a full time mother, which was extremely important to me).  But now that I know he has BPD I feel differently, especially knowing that this disorder stems from childhood abandonment.  It seems cruel for the only person he's allowed himself to be close to and trust (me), ends up leaving him and taking his children.  Although this may ultimately be what happens, I would like to develop a plan that is mindful of his feelings. 

You are correct, I do feel like his caretaker and I feel like this disorder is no different than caring for a mentally comprimised child.  I don't know how I see this playing out, I was hoping that he would at least stop drinking and get a job so he would have two feet to land on when the proverbial rug gets pulled out from under him.  Possibily a better approach to his BPD would be to put it on the back burner, for now, and focus only on the alcohol and unemployment issues, then tackle the BPD later.  I'm trying to make decisions with my "wise mind", seeking advise from a therapist, BPD books and from this forum to attempt to use the best approach for this situation without setting off an explosion or worse.

I appreciate your response and I understand that many of my statements may seem contradictory, which is also confusing to me as well.  Solving this type of problem is much harder when you're on the inside looking out.
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CoherentMoose
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2020, 02:35:00 PM »

Hello.  Welcome to this site. 

It's noble you want to help him, but do enough reading in here and you will see others who tried, and tried, and tried and eventually had to  separate to save themselves.  My experience with BPD is it can be hidden for short periods of time, but always baseline behaviors take over and the BPD actions come out.

At some point, you may have to consider your health and happiness and let him be an adult and deal with his situation.  It sounds like your children are concerned for you.  Take their counsel to heart.

You are in a tough situation with the house and not wanting to see if he ends up homeless.  However, you could also look at it like you are denying him the opportunity to better himself by "saving" him. 

Last, it may not be an "all" or "none" situation.  See if you can find a way to separate and get time to yourself for some self-care for an extended period of time without all the daily stress of your relationship.  For example, could you get a small apartment while still making the mortgage? Or use the equity in the home to fund the apartment for, say 6 months while you work through how you want your life to look like going forward?  Do you have any family members who could help you fund a small place for a few months? 
 Just my two cents worth.  Good luck.  CoMo
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2020, 02:55:15 PM »

CoherentMoose has brought up an important point: it doesn’t have to be all or none, and has made some good suggestions about moving forward.

As it stands now, you feel stuck. Right?

In addition, there are other peoples’ welfare that this concerns. You are modeling behavior for your children and that they’ve expressed their opinions indicates a great discomfort with the current situation.

As far as treating any of his issues, some professionals suggest that alcohol should be the first problem to solve. However with someone who is BPD, it’s very likely that alcohol is a treasured coping strategy and they are unlikely to want to give it up.

Furthermore nothing you’ve written indicates any interest or desire on the part of your husband to make any changes.

As they say in AA, sometimes an alcoholic has to hit bottom to want to change, and by supporting him in the way you are, he’s probably perfectly content to continue as is.

That gets into the caretaking issue. I know many of us come by this tendency by nature, but think of how it’s felt on the other side. Sure people like to be taken care of, but there’s a hidden message too. That is—“You somehow are incompetent or incapable, too incapacitated, lazy, stupid, etc. to take care of yourself so I must do it for you.”

It’s no wonder those we try and caretake often become very resentful of us.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2020, 03:17:56 PM »

Dear Liz-

Very difficult situation.  I’m so very sorry.  Both Cat and CoMo make excellent points.

What I see is that your children are asking for help without “begging” so far... so far...

As for you hurting over potentially  “abandoning” your H, seems he’s somewhat left the marriage, the family - at least in terms of being a contributing father and husband.  He may be disordered, but he is NOT a child.  At all.  He is not helpless.  Therapy and AA meetings are ALWAYS available to him.

You’ve expressed a fear about your credit rating and the house.  Perhaps consult privately with a L (lawyer) and look at a deed in lieu of foreclosure.  You turn the house over and walk away.  Explain that you are in an abusive relationship (you ARE) and need to plan an exit for your and your children’s sake.  Ask what your options may be...  step one.

Your credit rating WILL recover.

Finally, has your H actively expressed suicidal thoughts?  Whether he has or not, we are NOT responsible for another person’s actions... regardless of how they may attempt to pin those actions on us.  I understand that is a hard hard place to arrive.  But I went through years of someone threatening this act to me, and while I suffered with worry, waiting and searching for her... she was out partying.

Again, I am so sorry... for you, your children, and for your H.  It just saddens me that some disordered people are SO blind to the damage they cause.  So cold to it.

Sometimes the only thing you CAN do is to exit.

There is a saying...something like this...

“You cannot set yourself on fire to keep another person warm”

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes
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LizPA

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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2020, 03:33:40 PM »

Sab150, Thank you for your kind words.  I hate the rollercoaster ride too and that uncontrollable feeling of being dragged into their unbalanced world, void of logic.  The manipulation you're going through sounds horrible!  The last thing you want to happen is for them to be hurt, and for her to intentionally hurt herself to make you feel bad is unconscionable.  I'm sorry you're going through this pain, and I know it's hard to walk away.  I always ask myself if I'm willing to live the next few years like this, and my answer is always "no way!", but I still continue in the same situation.  I hope for both of us that we can find the strength to move on and take control of our own lives.

In an ideal situation, I would hope that they (BPDs) could be cured or learn to manage the disorder and maintain a normal life.  I would love to be able to keep the family together, but in my case, I think at least a temp. separation is inevitable until he seeks help and concours his demons.  

Thank you for your support and words of encouragement, they are truly appreciated.
LizPA
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LizPA

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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2020, 05:26:08 PM »

CoherentMoose, Cat F. and Gemsforeyes,  you have all hit the nail on the head!  Love this insight!

CoherentMoose - "..denying him the opportunity to better himself by "saving" him."
I love this perspective and hope it would have that outcome, assuming he would agree to therapy.  I do feel like I would be doing him a disservice if I didn't give him an opportunity to get help.  I've also considered renting a home (Air B&B, Vrbo) for a safe place for a few months after having the "talk" with him.  The average cost is $2k mo. (2 kids, 2 dogs) the money would have to come from the kid's college funds, which is a little scary since my son is starting college in the fall.  I would not consider pulling equity from the home in fear that it would give my husband a free pass to do the same (he already maxed out his cc at $15k and I refuse to pay it off for him, since it would just free up another $15k for him to start charging all over again).

Cat F. - Yes, I do feel stuck (for sure).  I agree with you regarding modeling behavior for my children, and it does put the pressure on to make a change now, but I also want to show them that it's being done thoughtfully and not a knee-jerk reaction.  I'm surprised at how o.k. they are with leaving their father, they claim to love him, and my husband has always treated them well, but they are very matter-of-fact about their decision. 
You are also correct that my husband has never indicated that he would accept help.  He's not a "joiner" and he's an Atheist, so if he were ever to admit he has a problem and agree to accept help, I'm certain he would only consider individual therapy with no religious undertones.  But I can't guarantee that he would be truthful about his disorder or childhood trauma.  The only way I found out about his childhood, was because his mother told me when we visited her in Europe (29yrs. ago), and he was very upset at her for telling me.  He was also extremely mad at me for knowing his past and wouldn't speak to me for weeks.  This all happened in a part of Europe where they don't speak English, so I had to live through 2 weeks in a foreign country with the only person that could translate for me, not speaking to me.
Your insight on "hitting bottom" before changing is most likely true in this case and I think it applies to both of us (I feel like I've hit my rock bottom with his disorder too).  He has apologized several times before for his drunken episodes, and has stated that he won't drink anymore, but he always drinks again within a few days.

Gemsforeyes - Love the pep-talk, "..he is not a child".  You are absolutely right!  I need reminding of that fact and the fact that he has the ability to take care of himself.  I know that if the tables were turned, he would have left me in a heartbeat and never looked back.  That alone should give me the strength to move on, but it's just not who I am.  The saying "you cannot set yourself on fire to keep another person warm" is an excellent quote, and so true and seems to sum up my situation. I'll take this to heart and I'll be using this quote in the future. 
Regarding suicidal thoughts, he has never threatened to commit suicide if we left him, but he has always said that he would kill himself when he's too old to function or enjoy life.  He thinks it's absurd that we have nursing homes full of old people that have no qualify of life.  I've told him that he can't assume that someone in their 80's or 90's doesn't enjoy a slower pace of life, even if it's looking forward to the next meal or a tv show; he disagrees and said there is no point in living once you're that old.  I don't know if that counts as "suicidal thoughts" in this situation.  But it does confirm his black and white (splitting) tendencies.
=====
Thank you all so much for your words of wisdom.  I value your insight on the disorder as well as my specific obstacles.  Your feedback is helping me to develop a plan to move forward.  I will take this advice to heart and I'll keep you posted.  This forum’s guidance and support is much needed and always appreciated.  Thank you.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2020, 06:10:27 PM »

Have you pondered an alternate perspective... that you end the dysfunctional relationship because of the children?

Here's the perspective... We all know every marriage has problems and issues.  And kids learn by seeing both the good and the less good.  But when the marriage grows to an extreme of being dysfunctional and unhealthy, would it be better for the kids to have divorced parents but then at least have one home where good parenting is practiced and sets a good example for the kids so that when they grow up they are prepared to seek out and make their own healthy relationships?

My point is that "staying for the kids" may not be the "less bad" choice.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 10:07:30 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

B53
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2020, 10:49:27 PM »

LizPA,
You have gotten good advice from the others.
My dad was verbally abusive to my mom. I use to go sleep with my parents yelling at each other. I prayed they would get a divorce. They never did. He might have been BPD. He was abused as a child. My father did mellow some over the years.

My sister and I both married verbally abusive men. I got out, my sister has stayed. Her husband has called her every word in the book. That was the kind of love we knew. I got therapy and learned that not all men yell.

Children would rather come from a broken marriage, then live in one.

I understand staying, I stayed in my marriage much longer then I should, because I had three young children and a mortgage. So don’t beat yourself up for staying. All you can do is the best you can. You will find a lot of support here.
B53


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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2020, 11:41:01 AM »

Children would rather come from a broken marriage, than live in one.

That post triggered a memory.

A few decades ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action, as appropriate, will enable your lives or at least a part of your lives to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that may be - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

In short, you can choose to make the best of a lousy situation, whether you stay with demonstrated improvement, "stay for now" pending promised improvement or whether you go.  The reasonable best.

Your decisions of course will be affected by your spouse's actions and behaviors.  But it's always up to you to decide what boundaries you will set in your life, what you will do or not do, etc.
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2020, 01:06:32 PM »

LizPA, my first marriage of 16 years was with someone who drank to medicate the complex PTSD, and indeed the stuff she had been through was such that no human being should have to live with it. But when I myself was diagnosed with suicidal depression there was nobody to help me. She was so used to leaning on me that she could not even take care of herself, much less another person. I ran, made a place where I could heal for the next few years. It turned out to be the best thing I could ever have done for her. Left to sink or swim she sobered up enough to hold down a job, finished college, built a great career, eventually got into therapy and now has a beautiful, loving wife who thinks the world of her.
When you insist on being somebody's crutch, you are sending a message that they cannot walk. Also, you are teaching your children that life is composed of crutches and people who cannot walk on their own. Is that really what you want to be doing with your life?
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2020, 06:35:26 PM »

Having a personality disorder is an explanation not an excuse.

Rather than focusing on whether to leave or not you can focus on making tiny little changes to see how it feels.

This is about you.

You won't be able to change his behavior, as you've pointed out. Every inch of improvement will be on things you can change in yourself.

That will help you gauge your strength and give you a sense of what you tried or didn't try, how it felt, what you noticed getting better or worse.

For example, "I will not be verbally abused" is a reasonable thing to want for yourself. You deserve to be talked to with respect, whether he has BPD or a cavity or didn't sleep well.

You may find that your H senses a shift in you as your strength grows (your self-respect will feel like kryptonite to him).

He may start to yell at you more.

Your boundary might be something like holding up your hand and repeating "Stop" calmly and firmly until he becomes so stunned he forgets to talk. "No" is also a good alternative.

Another possible change is to tell him you walk away when someone is yelling or cursing. You will come back when emotions have cooled and you can think straight.

Meanwhile, you can also gather information about how divorce works where you live so that you have a well-thought out idea about how much alimony you'll pay out and for how long, how the debt will be dealt with, and other things that are typically formulaic (if you haven't done this already).

Gathering information isn't the same as making a decision, but it's helpful to do it so that you aren't blind-sided by legalities at a time when your emotions are on tilt.

You deserve respect  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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Breathe.
LizPA

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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2020, 02:46:12 AM »

ForeverDad and B53, you both make excellent points about the kids.  My kids are young men  now, but as much as I've sheltered them in the past they still picked up on the dysfunction.  Now they are the ones giving me the courage to finally confront this disorder. 

Livednlearned, I love your advice; I can tell that you've lived and learned.  You are absolutely right about him sensing a shift in me.  I do have a new sense of independence and I refuse to engage with him if he's yelling, drunk or mean.   I take care of everything as if he's not there, in an attempt to avoid conflict (I know I'm going to get flack for that statement), but it also helps me prove to myself that I can move forward without him.  He has definitely noticed my new independence and he doesn't like it. 

Regarding info. about divorce:  I did meet with a couple of divorce lawyer about 2 yrs. ago and planned to file for divorce, I even told the kids, but when I told my H he begged me to stay and said he would do anything, so we went to marriage counseling, which he had refused to do in the past (this is before I knew he had BPD).  The therapy was geared towards the typical communication issues and respect, but did not address the elephant in the room.  My husband's big complaint about me in therapy was that I live in the past because I always bring up "things" that happened weeks/months, so after about 5 sessions the therapist recommended that I consider seeing a specialist for PTSD since I had a difficult time moving forward from past conflicts :-/.  This was very frustrating because I knew it was so much more than that, but I wanted to play by the rules (set a good example) so I went to the therapist he recommended and after a few sessions they said that my PTSD was the only thing keeping me safe, considering the conflicts are on-going.  So, I guess technically I have SD (no surprise).  After a few months my H starting shutting down during our therapy sessions, so that was the end of that.  He was able to suppress his anger for several months after, which I know was very difficult for him.  Then after a while everything returned back to his BPD normal and that's about the time the excessive drinking started.
===
I'm trying hard to do my homework and prepare a plan to move forward, the guidance from everyone is very helpful.  Thank you all.
LizPA
   



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« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2021, 09:34:01 PM »

Just a quick update.  I finally completed the first part of my plan, at the children's urging.  I decided to talk to my H about getting help, without mentioning BPD.  I wanted our talk to be as unconfrontational as possible and instead acknowledge his struggles and offer help (yes, I've been reading the books), but I also want to set limits.  So, before noon on new years eve (before he started drinking too much) I said the following in a concerned, but not condescending tone. 

Me:  "I know you've been personally struggling?"
H:  "What am I struggling with?" (smirking)
Me: "Excessive drinking, anger issues and refusing to work for 5yrs."
H:  "O.k., so I need a job, but I don't have a drinking problem or anger issues.  And so what if I drink a few beers a day.  Do you really think a couple of beers a day is too much?" 
Me:  "Have you started drinking today already?"
H:  "No, why, do you smell anything?"  Then he asked me again, "do you really have a problem with a few beers a day?  I can stop anytime, It's not like a need to drink."
Me: "you promised many times that you would stop drinking, but you've never stopped."
H:  "Oh yea, right!  (laughing) I never said that, MANY times."
Me:  "You told me that twice within just the past month alone.  Do you remember anything you said to me or your son when you were drunk a few weeks ago?"
H:  "No.  I remember coming down the stairs but I don't remember anything after that."
Me: "Would you like help?  We can find help or a rehab., I'll pay whatever it takes.  I know you're better than this."
H:  "O.k. (laughing sarcastically), that won't be necessary."
Me: "O.k., but the offer still stands.  We can fix this, but if you're drunk or out-of-control again, the kids and I can't stay here.  I want next year to be better."
H:  "Me too." (smugly smirking, walking away, no eye contact).

I tried my best with the delivery and I was calm and set limits, but I don't think he'll take anything I say seriously.  But at least now he's been warned that we'll (me, boys and dogs) leave the home immediately if he has another episode.  Our bags are packed, and there are a few extended stay hotels (pets allowed) within a few miles from our home.  The boys and I have already visited one of the hotels and the rooms/apartments will be a nice getaway when there's another episode; we can leave the house in less than 5mins..  I only plan on staying at the hotel for less than a week, but I'm hoping it will be a big dose of reality for my H and maybe then he'll consider getting help.

Not sure how things will playout when we return from the hotel.  Will he... agree to get help? / just leave while we're gone? / hurt himself? / destroy the home? / act as if nothing happened? or freak-out when we return?.  I guess only time will tell, but I still need to plan ahead for how I respond to each scenario.   I suppose that if his anger escalates when we return, we can always go back to the hotel and I can start divorce proceedings.  But I still need to work out the logistics.  At least for now, things are progressing and I'm feeling good about moving forward.
LizPA
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 12:04:22 PM »

"I'm no longer willing to be around you when you are impaired" may help sidestep the loop about whether or not he is drinking too much, which he seems to think is his limit to decide.

I regret the amount of effort I put into focusing on how much my ex drank, which essentially dragged me into a debate that was beside the point.

From past history, your H will likely make an effort to figure out the minimum he has to do for you to return to status quo.

Research suggests that says it takes an alcoholic on average 11 attempts to get sober before reaching sobriety. That's for someone who wants to quit (versus someone given an ultimatum).

If he were to succeed at his first attempt at sobriety, would that change things for you? And what would him succeeding look like?
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 04:53:38 PM »

I was stuck for years.   Stayed because I genuinely believed it was in my children’s best interest to have me in Their lives on a daily basis.   It was a good decision

I am now in the process of divorce.  It is not necessarily better for my kids this way.  It will be better for me in the long run.

But your kids are adults. They are fine.

You could just detach (with love) and start behaving more and more independent and see how that feels. 

But usually, cold turkey is the fastest route to recovery (and likely you will need a few years recovery)

Or just stay stuck and discontent and try not to let resentment build.  No way to live.  (5 years ago I would not have as clear opinion on this type of decision.  But for me, now, it’s pretty clear)
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 05:35:06 PM »

livednlearned, good questions ("...would that change things for me, and what does success look like?"), the short answer is, I don't know.

Before his drinking became a problem, the BPD episodes were the major concern and that was difficult enough.  Now the drinking has over-shadowed the BPD and is a much bigger immediate concern.  I admit that if he was able to stop or at least control his drinking, I would feel a huge sense of relief and it may even make me wait a little longer before confronting the BPD issue.
 
I think the next thing to tackle (after sobriety) would be his unemployment.  I know the next BPD episode is inevitable, but I'm hoping that he can be sober and employed before I have to address the BPD.  I'm really not looking forward to slaying another dragon, and I can already predict his response - "...nothing's ever good enough for you, it doesn't matter what I do you're never happy." Followed up by - "you're the problem, you're not affectionate and never want to...".  Meanwhile, the last 4 times I've tried to initiate sex he shot me down (too busy, too tired, too dirty, etc.).

Between my research and the books on BPD, I get the impression that managing a person's BPD is a life-long dance of reverse manipulation for short-term gains.  The experts say that you should choose your words carefully (don't poke the bear) and gently guide them towards a more appropriate response and self reflection; and you need to be consistant which each episode, and you should mention that they have BPD.  Which sounds to me like I'll still be walking on eggshells, I'll just have a different perspective.  Although I'm acquiring the skills to mitigate BPD, I don't know if I want to live in a state of "BPD management" for the rest of my life.  I guess my willingness to stay will be determined by his willingness to change.
=========================
Yeeter, thank you for the words of encouragement.  In my situation, I do believe it was in my children's best interest to stay when they were little.  But you're right, they are older now and are supportive of me leaving.  I can see where "cold turkey" would be a faster route to recovery and much less of a chance to get sucked back in to the dysfunction of BPD, but I'm having a very difficult time cutting the cord.
LizPA
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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 06:32:46 PM »

Some of us, myself included, did stay... until we couldn't stay any longer.  In my case, the threats were increasing in tone and frequency, my spouse said she would disappear with my preschooler, I had to separate.

I asked my lawyer about Legal Separation as a less extreme option to divorce.  He said in 17 years he had only done 2 Legal Separations and both times it was not due to conflict but for convenience (lives took different paths, for one the ex needed the health plan so they decided to stay married on paper).

But usually, cold turkey is the fastest route to recovery (and likely you will need a few years recovery)

What do I regret, looking back?  Although there's no way now to know if it would have worked, I wonder whether pushing harder and earlier for some sort of intervention might have helped.  I had kept the discord private hoping each rant and rage would be the last.  Sadly, as many here too found out, there was always another incident all too soon.
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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 08:36:33 PM »

Correction:  In my previous post I meant to type "...you shouldn't mention that they have BPD."  Pointing out the fact that they have a real disorder, could lead to another conflict.

ForeverDad, I considered a separation, but my state (PA) doesn't recognize legal separation.  I also asked my H to sign a post-nup., but he refused.  It does seem like all roads lead to divorce.
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2021, 03:24:06 PM »

It finally happened.  Last night my H had another episode and the kids, dogs and I left.  We're staying at the hotel until Saturday.  I previously warned my H that if he had another episode or was drunk, that we couldn't stay.  Last night was another episode and we loaded up the car and I told my H that we were leaving for a few days.  He said "no don't go, that's ridiculous, please stay".  I told him that I've taken enough abuse for a life-time and that I need a few days away.  Also told him that the kids wanted to come with me (I gave them the option of staying), H wasn't drunk (at the time) and I was the only one in the line of fire, but they chose to come with me.

I received several voice msgs. from H, immediately after we left, saying that we should come back and he will leave.  Hotel was already booked, and I don't trust him to leave, not to mention that he has no money or credit, and I didn't want to give him another chance to intimidate me.

It only took a few hours before I started to receive drunken texts from him saying horrible things, including name calling and stating that he moved all my bedroom furniture to the garage and that if I tried to come home I wouldn't be able to get in, stating that he locked all the doors and my keys won't work.  Then he said he wouldn't let me back in until after 12 on Friday (not sure what the significance of that day/time is).   The last text I received was at 3am. 

We are all a wreck and my anxiety it higher than ever, even the kids are shaken by this turn of events.  None of us slept well last night.  I told the kids that I'll take them home anytime they want, but they are both sticking by me.  I'm terrified to go back home, not sure what I'm going to find.  I had my friend drive by my house to make sure my H didn't drag my furniture to the curb with a "free" sign.  Thankfully he didn't.

I have an appt. with a divorce attorney tomorrow afternoon, and I may have a Vrbo home lined up for a few weeks ($3.5k for 1mo., ouch.), if necessary.  I don't know what to expect when we return, or how he will react, but I do think this is the end of our relationship.  I wish I could just go to sleep and wake up when this is all over.   The instability of BPD is very real and scary as hell.
LizPA 
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2021, 09:26:32 PM »

LizPA,
I am so sorry that you are going through this. You probably shouldn’t go back there alone. Please be careful and take care of yourself!
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2021, 07:53:08 AM »

Use your support system.  It is what it is there for.  Friends.  Family.  This board.  Get a T.  Read.

And at the same time be sure to take breaks from it all.  Self care.  Exercise.  Sleep.  Proper nutrition.  Better decisions and behavior is by being in the best state you can be emotionally/mentally.

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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2021, 11:30:04 AM »

Oof. I'm so sorry you're going through this and can really relate to wanting to wake up when it's all over.

This year will be 10 years since ending my marriage and it stuns me how much better my life is. Still, those early days, weeks, and months were not ones I would want to live through again. I'm so glad you have this site for support while you go through this.

Do you have any concerns about him financially abusing the situation? It sounds like you are the one who manages money so maybe you aren't too concerned?

I hope he doesn't change the locks on you. If he is an alcoholic in the same way my ex was, he will likely think about it and threaten to do it, but will then go drink instead.

Of the countless threats my ex made, I can't think of any that actually came to pass. If he followed through on them (mostly about sending emails to my boss, family, son, etc.) he would get something wrong in the address  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

He was good at intimidation but terrible about follow through.

And he was a former trial attorney  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

It sounds like the kids are intent on staying with you. Probably no need to make the offer to stay with him -- they have voted with their feet. Not to mention things will probably get worse before better in his immediate orbit during this period as he realizes you are serious about leaving.
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« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2021, 11:35:40 AM »

Thank you both.  I thought H was getting better this morning when I received a few texts that were normal..."Hope you're feeling better. Love H".  But when I told him we were returning home tomorrow morning and that we would like to have a family meeting to discuss things (at the kids request), he turned back into the devil from hell and the nasty texts kept coming.  I'm waiting to hear back from my T, and will be seeing my L this afternoon, but I can't imagine what either one of them will say or recommend that won't make me feel like I'll be walking into a tiger's cage when I go home.  My sons will be with me (both over 6'3" tall) so I doubt there will be any physical violence, but I also don't want them to witness a full blown petulant BPD freak-out at their mother's expense.  On one hand, I think this may be necessary for them to see, and for my H to know that his children witnessed his disorder in all it's glory.  But on the other hand, I also want to protect them from the twisted, nonsensical, anger that I know my H is cabable of, and that I know will scare my kids and possibly scar them for life. 

Also, in case there is some shift in the universe and my H actually agrees to get help, are there any in-patient BPD programs or therapists you would recommend for a male in his mid 50's with petulant BPD?  Preferrably located in eastern PA.   Thanks again for your support.
LizPA
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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2021, 11:42:24 AM »

I'm not sure about what's available for BPD treatment in your area, but often the way to find places that treat BPD is to look for dual-diagnosis programs (treating both substance abuse and mental illness).

Or

Look for DBT programs. Some have tiered or stepped programs depending on how severe the symptoms of behavior are (e.g. suicidal ideation, cutting, other types of self-harm) and what kinds of co-morbid issues might be going on.

Do you plan to lead with talk of divorce when you go back to see him?

How would you bring up the possibility of treatment?

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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2021, 04:33:18 PM »

We're so sad things fell apart, though it was predictable it would happen sooner or later, sooner as it turned out.

The others have made good comments and they will continue doing so in the future as well.  I'd like to highlight your efforts to be fair.  Fairness is a good quality, most here seem to have arrived here because we were fair for years, even too fair and considerate as Nice Guys and Nice Gals.  However... however, when in situations like this fairness and niceness has to take a back seat to practicality.  I believe your lawyer would agree.  Here are a couple examples.

"Also told him that the kids wanted to come with me (I gave them the option of staying), H wasn't drunk (at the time) and I was the only one in the line of fire, but they chose to come with me."

While it turned out that the children did want to go with you, be aware you put minor children in the middle.  Generally it is best not to put the kids in a place where they feel they have to choose.  You are the stable parent and you're in the best position to care for the children.  Just think... you were leaving because of his poor behaviors yet you were willing to allow one or more of the children to remain with him?  Yes, they're older teens — and court often lets older teens "vote with their feet" — but they're still technically minor children in the eyes of the law.

"I received several voice msgs. from H, immediately after we left, saying that we should come back and he will leave.  Hotel was already booked, and I don't trust him to leave, not to mention that he has no money or credit, and I didn't want to give him another chance to intimidate me."

We seldom think of which answers — if we even think of any in the crisis moment — we ought to give.  (That's why Monday morning armchair quarterbacks are such experts. Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  Okay, I've just moved to my armchair but I know very little about football.)  First, ignore your concern that he doesn't have money nor credit.  He's a grown man, he can figure it out.  If need be you could have paid half your cost of a vacation home for him to go to an extended stay motel for a month.

And at least you could have tested his offer to leave by something like this, "Okay, the kids and I will go and eat at a restaurant for now, call me when you've left."  Sure it still might not (probably not) have worked but at least you would find out how good his promise to leave was.

Your lawyer should include in the divorce that he vacate and allow you and the kids to resume possession of the family home.  Why?  What if when a month is over that he still refuses to leave?  Then what?  Better to resolve the possession issue sooner than later, with something enforceable.  Sure, you may end up providing some level of support but isn't that better than continuing to live in an expensive alternate location?  His behaviors are poor, again, and you have to move?

For choosing lawyers and choosing proactive legal strategies and approaches, this is the best handbook:  Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger.
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2021, 09:13:54 AM »

Thank you both.  I'm enjoy my last few hours at the hotel this morning, and last night the kids and I have been discussing how the conversation will go when we return, assuming H is home.  After much thought, confusion and an overwhelming amount of information from my support group, I've decided that the best approach would be to keep it simple.  Considering that H would never admit he has a disorder, I plan on saying that neither of us are happy and it would be best to separate immediately and hope that we can remain cordial for the sake of the children, then I plan on asking him to leave.  I don't plan on mentioning his disorder, I don't think it would make a different at this point.  He knows that I want him to get help for his drinking and anger issues already.  I was thinking of possibly giving him the book I have on BPD and saying that it's too late for us, but it my help him in the future.
LizPA
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2021, 02:44:30 PM »

Yes, it may help him "in the future" but during a separation which is usually when emotions (and possible conflict) are running high may not be the best time.  And although you want to minimize the tensions of a separation, handing him a book can be perceived by him as ramping up the tensions.
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