How to encourage skin in the game with money falling from the heavens?

[20yearsHRS]

Happy New Year!  

Our dBPD daughter was working for 3-4 days prior to restaurants being shut down in March.  But, we had to practically pull her teeth to get her to drive the car (using her permit with me in the passenger seat) and go to this first job.  At the moment restaurants where shut down there was no indication she was going to quit.  When things opened back up in May, she did indeed quit.  As it turns out due to COVID, she may have unemployment supplemented by CARE's act money for the few months between starting, shutdown, and quitting.  During the employment phase, we had no agreement that she had to spend every dime towards college and could not spend anything on personal wants.

This dBPD daughter has her first two years of college covered by her udBPD mom's life insurance provided she spends it on college expenses only and completes 60 credits.  After completing first semester, she is in the hole a bit, $1K+, for personal wants unrelated to college expenses.  My wife and I (both members of this forum) disagree on how we should counsel her to spend any unemployment she may receive.  Knowing full well that I am still in the FOG (fighting to get clear, but still in) from my previous deceased udBPD wife and my daughter's dBPD , I am looking for objective opinions about what should be counseled.

Hoping for "skin in the game" we could counsel her that all of the money needs to go into her college account and she needs to get and keep a job and pay back the $1K+ money she pulled that was not for college.  That before we help with any of her final 60 credits, she needs to spend all of this money towards future college expenses.  The person with the FOG, me, has that guilt that we should offer her a carrot in the counseling and suggest she could keep a portion for personal wants, pay off what is owed to the college account, pay for her first car, etc. and put the remainder into her college account.  Yes, we are talking about a significant sum of money possibly $6K+ from unemployment due to CARES act.

For those that may follow my previous posts, dBPD daughter is not having luck starting and keeping a job at present.  She has completed her first semester of college but has yet to get her drivers license.  She uses social media to talk down about us and even asks people for money for food.  Note she has 3 meals a day at college covered 100%.  Her needs are covered 100% including $25 per week for toiletries (while at college) which easily could be budgeted to include wants like that Starbucks or McDonald's or ubereats etc.

The fear is that this money from heaven will get wasted, and we will never see "skin in the game".  We fear she will never get her driver's license, go get a job, become independent if money keeps falling from heaven.  I'm looking for that help to keep climbing out of the FOG and for what might be considered fair for someone with BPD.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[formflier]

Have you ever studied much economics?   This is really an economic question of incentives and unfortunately (unlike most economic class assumptions), not all of the actors are "rational".

I would suggest your job is to be as rational as possible, counsel as little as possible (perhaps rephrase that to counsel succinctly) and then step back validate, support...pray and hope.

DO NOT RESCUE!

Let her solve her own stuff...even if she is solving it badly.

Over time, economics will solve this.   Rescuing will delay or prevent this.

Broad strategy:  Hey babe...for every $x that you spend on college, we will follow with $y for college and perhaps some $z for fun.

Make sure it is lopsided (no one for one match).  Maybe she puts in 3 and you put in 1 or something like that.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[Resiliant]

Hey there,

I couldn't agree more with Formflier!

I was going to ask how old she is and if she is old enough to make her own mistakes?
Let's face it - she is going to make decisions that disappoint you. 

We fear she will never get her driver's license, go get a job, become independent if money keeps falling from heaven.

This is a very valid concern.  My husband and I like to say "If you get something for nothing, what is it worth to you?"   Obvious answer is: nothing

All you can do is to try and make sure that you are not the ones enabling her.  Make sure you aren't the ones giving her this money.   

Certainly you can remind her that the gravy train is not going to last forever.  If she is getting extra money somewhere you can let her know your concerns, but the harder you put your thumb down on her the more she will try to get out from under it.   If you want her to have independence then you will have to give her some too.  And if you are giving her too much financial support then that may mean you need to cut back.  Now is the perfect time if she is getting extra because of Covid.

My guess is: Yup!  She's going to blow through this extra money.  It doesn't take being BPD for that to happen.

Stay firm - you might say something like: "Hey - if that is what you decide to do then that is your choice.  I wouldn't be doing my job as a loving father if I didn't at least share some of my knowledge and experiences with you and let you know what I see coming down the pipeline".

I hope this was somewhat helpful.

R

[Sancho]

I can't make the connection that counselling someone is taking control of what they do.

Your daughter is in a complex moment of her life - a very stressful stage of transition from family/school to gaining the tools of independence. This is a difficult time for any young person, let alone someone with BPD - and, from what you say, quite a high level of anxiety.

To have completed some of the college course, got going with her licence and had some work experience is quite an achievement. That is a lot going on at once.

When you say 'counselling' I am assuming you feel you can make a range of suggestions. If your daughter is open to you making suggestions then you are in a great position to be able to help her develop money managing skills.

Perhaps a discussion about 'options' could start with your daughter giving her ideas about dealing with the money?

Butcher paper and textas - take notes during the discussion. You can put in bits like 'Remember you owe the college fund $1000'.

I would so love to be able to do this with my BPD d. We all need to develop the habit of looking at all the options, and the consequences of each option as part of the decision making process.

[Isabel2]

Hi this is the wife here!  In an answer to one question our dBPD daughter is 18.  Here is a little more background.  

The life insurance was set up where our daughter was given 50k the day she turned 18.  To encourage her to actually graduate college we set up our boundary that if all of that money was spent on college expenses and she had completed 2 years towards getting a degree we would spend another 50k for her to finish college.  So she currently has complete control of this money of which 1st semester approx. $1200 was not spent on college. She claims it is not her responsibility and we should not include it as people stole it from her and she does not know what happened to all of it.

She also received a good amount of life ins. money from her grandma that my husband can legally control and grandma earmarked it for educational expenses.  We have let her use some of that for a computer, printer, study abroad (that was cancelled to due covid) etc. for college.  1st semester she had 2 broken phones and one computer (all by random "drunk people taking her things and her therapy cat suddenly breaking electronics").  She does have a history of breaking electronics especially phones when ragging and her bio mom always bought her the latest model after they were broken.  My bio children were not used to this so we were married we set up strict guidelines and boundaries of how much we would pay for phones and when. After rules were set in place and tested once and our daughter realized her phones would not just get replaced she did stop breaking her phone.  So she has shown the ability to change her behavior when she has skin in the game.

We have told her we would buy her a cheap car after she got her driver's license.  While in HS she did do some of her driving hours but not the total 60 required...and often times it  was with arguing and panic attacks to get her to practice.  She shows no desire to get a license now.  So we have set the boundary that we will only drive her to and from work and she has to pay us gas money as we will not chauffer her around anywhere else now that she is an adult.

As stated above she did actually get two jobs but both times after 2-3 days of training by day 4 she called in and told them she could not come in due to issues that day and was told there was no need to come back.  So essentially she was fired due to calling in to work. Both times at the beginning of summer break and winter break.  Then after she did not go and apply for more jobs.

So here is the question.  She has this unemployment money sitting there for months now.  She will not call to get it.  We want to set our own boundaries if she gets it to where we will no longer buy her here first car and additional money would need to be spent on college again before we chip in our money.  There are two issues.  I fully support any money she EARNS is hers to spend without our boundaries on how we will help her with college etc.  But she did not EARN this money.  She would not quality for unemployment if it were not for covid...she was essentially fired right after training and her covid layoff ended.  So I feel we can set our boundaries with this money and say we will no longer buy her her first car and will contribute a little less towards college since she received it. The problem is she won't make the call to get the money.  They had her SS number wrong and she needs to call and talk to someone to correct it and then she can receive the money.  She has needed to call since Sept. and won't because she is scared to make phone calls and wants her dad to handle it for her.  So to give her skin in the game to actually collect the money the thought was that some of the money would just be for her so spend as she wants...but we do not agree on the amount.  And should we even encourage her to collect the money since the more money she is given that was not earned just prolongs what I perceive as her fantasy world that she is not responsible for earning money and it will always just appear?


 


  

[20yearsHRS]

F.O.G. man here.  This might be the crux of the matter.  Am I still in the FOG so deep that I cannot see she did not EARN any of this potential unemployment that is out there?  Is it my F.O.G. that makes me think "There was no indication in March of quitting so she deserves this unemployment"?  We should include that there was a suicide attempt the night before her HS graduation.  Very possible this was all staged but several days were spent in a Psych ward in May prior to the restart of the restaurants and the job quitting.

I will be the first to admit, I have Fear of having to tell her she cannot continue further college until the $1200 is paid back or any other funds she may decide to blow before she reaches the end of her $50K.  I'm committed to this but still fear the day I have to tell her she is going to need to fulfill her end of the commitment before we will continue to assist.  Knowing that she may drop out and never go back.  I feel Obligated, right or wrong, to get her through college.  And, I feel Guilty, that I did not get out of my first marriage before it adversely affected her.  So with this potential unemployment out there, and if used to pay back her $1200 etc,  I'm off the hook - no need to have that confrontation...right?  Wrong? because she did not have the "skin in the game" and actually work to pay back this $1200.  It was just manna from heaven.  Damn the CARES act that indiscriminately just starts throwing money out there whether it was truly deserved or not.

We fear that she may never have "skin in the game" if manna keeps falling from heaven.  Thus we are on here looking for advice.  Understanding full well all the legal ramifications with her age and it's legally her money etc.  However, the goal is to help counsel her / mold her into a productive citizen that works and gives back to society.   So tell me I'm not a bad father if I tell her "Ok, since you have $6K from unemployment that is $6K less we need to contribute towards your college".

[formflier]

I will be the first to admit, I have Fear of having to tell her she cannot continue further college until the $1200 is paid back or any other funds she may decide to blow before she reaches the end of her $50K.  I'm committed to this but still fear the day I have to tell her she is going to need to fulfill her end of the commitment before we will continue to assist.  

But...hmm...why tell her?  Why not inform her of conditions and let her figure it out.

"Hey babe (not sure how you address her..but something relaxed).  Here is the spreadsheet as I see it, please check your records and let me know how you decide to proceed."

As a broad statement, when I find people worrying about explaining consequences and choices to another adult (regardless of mental illness)...my "overfunctioning alert" goes off.

And...let's just assume something has gone awry and this person hasn't developed the skills yet to work through these choices...  Well...it's better they start now than waiting another two or twenty years.

Best,

FF

[Resiliant]

    Hi Mom! 

First of all I want to say that I'm glad Sancho posted also.  Sancho has some great comments and I don't feel like we are on different pages.   I think the question was how to counsel (not whether or not to counsel).   Not that I properly answered that question.

I do 100% agree that counselling is important.  My thing is just to let her own her decisions.  Guidance is great, but lead her to coming up with the best decisions by asking her questions rather than providing all the answers.   At one of the conferences I attended I made notes from what the speakers said and one of my notes says to ask / invite.  Ask if she minds if you provide a suggestion.  Also under "what gets in the way of validation" I wrote "problem solving too fast".   If she gets the chances to come up with good decisions when she is nicely regulated and having conversations with you, she will not only maintain trust in you but she will learn to trust herself.   Certainly she is going to have many moments in the future where she makes poor decisions impulsively, but hopefully she will be able to see the difference and recognize that she can also make good decisions when she thinks them through.  Or even better, she may realize that she makes the best decisions when she has someone like you to talk them out with.   Don't expect this anytime soon.   

I often quote Valerie Porr, only because her book "Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder, a Family Guide to Healing and Change" has made such a difference for my way of seeing my son and communicating with him.   In her book she talks about a BPD person's need to "be in charge".   I can't quote her right now since I lent the book to a friend but it makes sense in this conversation.

You guys are great parents and have put so much thought into this!   Thanks for mentioning her age.   For some reason I imagined her being a little older say 20-22.
She is just becoming an adult and if suffering with BPD maybe she isn't quite there yet.

While in HS she did do some of her driving hours but not the total 60 required...and often times it  was with arguing and panic attacks to get her to practice.  She shows no desire to get a license now. 

she is scared to make phone calls and wants her dad to handle it for her

So we can see the anxiety here.   

I feel like it is especially important to encourage your daughter to overcome her fears.  If she wants to go visit a friend, maybe you can say for sure - we will take you as long as you do the driving.   Whenever an opportunity comes up where she can have a reward for driving put it in there.  Maybe going for ice cream?   Same with the anxiety over making the phone call for the money.  Is she the same with ordering pizza?   What is her favorite take-out food?  Would she make the call?   It is very important for her to see rewards in overcoming her anxieties.  It's far too easy for her to avoid things she is uncomfortable with and if you can help change that it would be amazing.

And should we even encourage her to collect the money since the more money she is given that was not earned

That is such a great question.  Is collecting the money a negative thing because it teaches her that she can have something she didn't earn or is it a positive thing: does it teach her about seeing an opportunity and taking the steps to seize the opportunity?

I think that it is both, but I vote to let her know this is a one-time opportunity and ask her if she wants to take it.  If she has anxiety around making the call I agree with you guys not to do it for her, but can you sit next to her while she does it for herself?   Can you walk her through it?  Will the success of the call help her gain some confidence?

Is this bad, could it lead to her applying for welfare in the future instead of working?  Or, is it good because it shows her that with a little effort of getting over her anxiety she can accomplish a nice reward?

My husband and I have been self employed all of our adult lives, and if we didn't know how to see and seize an opportunity and figure out how to borrow money (borrowed money is not earned) we would not have been nearly as successful.  Of course the working hard part was a way bigger factor but I do feel like this could be a lesson in life and in getting over your fears.   Anxiety = procrastination = missed opportunities.

I think it is so great that both of you posted here.   You seem to realize that someone from the outside looking in can "see the forest for the trees".   You are both obviously very intelligent and engaged parents.  Mom - it is so heartwarming to see the love and concern that you have for your stepdaughter.  It is often very hard for stepparents to accept BPD children.  You make me want to smile and cry at the same time.

From what I can see the thing to focus on is self confidence.
As I said before, try to lead her to making her own good decisions.  And help her to own her decisions, good or bad.   Valerie Porr also talks extensively about shame and the shame that people with BPD feel and how it affects their behaviour and their thinking.  When your daughter makes poor decisions (which she will), be careful how you talk it out with her and try to keep shame out of it.  Don't admonish. Instead, especially since she is coming into adulthood try to talk it out in a validating way.   From the way that both of you have expressed things I am 100% sure that you can handle this.

All the best.  Just my 2 cents.   I wish I had answers but all that I can provide is food for thought.

R

[Isabel2]

Thank your for your input and ideas.  It is very difficult making decisions that are selective support...trying to support the adult child while also tying to encourage and set up situations that are not just enabling them.  It is excellent to have a community like this to bounce ideas off of.  I have mostly just been reading posts for several months now and have gained a lot of knowledge here.  Additionally, I feel we have a better understanding of some of the challenges we might face as our daughter enters more into adulthood and independence.  Although we cannot prevent all negative situations we are hoping through planning, counseling, and boundaries that we can encourage more wise choices.  

[Resiliant]

This is a note for dad.  FOGman as you describe yourself 

You have mentioned the guilt that you feel several times.  Guilt for not divorcing your daughter's mother in time to protect her.

I relate to that guilt.

Have you researched bio-social theory?  If bio-social theory is correct then your daughter was pre-disposed to this condition by a little shy of 50% and the rest was environment.   Of course her BPD mother was a factor in her environment but her environment also included you, her school and other things like her friends, their families, extended family, church or extra curricular activities etc .

If you had divorced her mother earlier, maybe some of the things that she was exposed to wouldn't have happened.  At the same time, maybe her mother's reaction to the divorce would have caused even more serious trauma.   Maybe things would have been worse.  Maybe even far far worse

Please - stop second guessing yourself and realize that you did the best you could do.  And when you knew better you did better. 

Your daughter is predisposed to this condition.  Environmental factors can help and they can hurt.  You have done your best according to your knowledge and understanding.  Don't beat yourself up for not being perfect.

Hugs

R

[Sancho]

I understand the concerns regarding how to help your daughter develop budgeting skills. The daughter of a friend spent over $170 000 insurance money in just over a year. Here you will find many posts in which people tell how much money their bpd child has gone through and how much they have spent. So it is a real issue.

It's a huge positive that your daughter has completed some part of her course.

You say:

The fear is that this money from heaven will get wasted, and we will never see "skin in the game".  We fear she will never get her driver's license, go get a job, become independent if money keeps falling from heaven.

Please do not underestimate how extraordinarily difficult it can be for BPD folks to hold down a job or to get a driver's license.

Anger is a secondary emotion and often the bpd does not express the anxiety that underlies the angry outburst.

The workplace is full of 'anger' triggers and a bpd person can be exhausted just getting through the day without exploding. It is easy to understand how the anxiety about dealing with this would lead to avoidance. There is also the issue with not being able to use the phone.

I think I would be focusing on how to tackle these issues and the anxiety that underpins them at this stage. If she is learning on an automatic car that would be a huge advantage.

Your daughter is 18. The brain is not finished rewiring until about 25 years of age. So she is really under the pump with BPD at 18 years of age.

I'm not sure what the costs of things are where you live but my 11 year old GD would take $25 to go with her friends to a movie. So I think your daughter has done well to be only $1000 + short if she is living away from home among other young people.

Personally I think if you can help her very slowly overcome her anxiety and address one thing at a time, the outcome would be better in the long run.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[20yearsHRS]

F.O.G. man here.    I use this term lightly as without a sense of humor I would be lost.  I would much prefer being a Frogman but I was never the best swimmer. 

Thank you all for you posts.  I realize our situation could be much worse by magnitudes of 10 based on posts here.  To use a wrestler term, "We will hold off on the body slam just yet" and strive for that balance towards independence. 

[formflier]

  My thing is just to let her own her decisions.  

20yearsHRS

What does this advice mean to you?

Can you reflect it back to us in your own words?

Best,

FF

[20yearsHRS]

Ok if we are doing therapy for F.O.G. man here,  , she needs to be responsible "take ownership" of her decisions.  For better or for worse, if she runs out of money because she decides she likes her expensive lattes in the morning, than that was her decision to pull from her college account instead of budgeting the money given for college toiletries.  Since we are shut down at the moment, nobody is going to movies so $25 a week easily covers deodorant, soap, shampoo, and all the other stuff in a month with extra.  In fact I can live off of $10 a month for toiletries because I can purchase 2 for 1 deodorant from Krogers and use the big giant bottle of 3 in 1 Sauve for a month or more.    Granted she might need some lady items but still manageable with extra to spend for fun stuff.  Sales, coupons, etc. in mind here.  I mean how many of us lived off peanut butter and jelly and Ramon noodles in college for a time.  She gets 3 meals a day from the dining hall, 7 days a week.

Own also means I have to let her make mistakes of course.  That's the hard part watching them fall and fall and fall again.  Thought that part was over after 3 year old tantrums.     If she gets to the end of her first two years and has pulled more money from that account than college required, I get to make the hard call and tell her it's up to her to pay back before we chip in.  After all, how many young adults this day and time get $100K to go to college free because their mom passed away.  All that is required is they spend it wisely.  Both my wife and I worked through college and had student loans.  The girl has no idea of the gift she has been given.  I hope she begins to own it.

[Sancho]

I hope so too - that would be great.

I'm not sure comparing ourselves to our bpd child works that well - just because if you don't have bpd, then the possibilities are hugely different.

I understand the original post was about the money, but in telling your story, I suppose I picked up on not wanting to use the phone -even to get the money - anxiety around driving, work etc.

I just wondered if the long term outcome would benefit from focusing on those anxiety issues? But you probably are doing that at that same time.

Hope it works out for yourselves and your BPD loved one.

[20yearsHRS]

Well it is hard to focus on anxiety if the person will not go get therapy.  At 18 they cannot be forced and forcing therapy does not work anyways.  So, yes we would like to focus on something, but the dBPDd at this moment does not accept her diagnosis and feels the Dr. made a mistake and that she is just ADHD instead.

[formflier]

   If she gets to the end of her first two years and has pulled more money from that account than college required, I get to make the hard call and tell her it's up to her to pay back before we chip in.   .

Why tell her again?  She knows the requirements... let her know the format that you want the "proof" in (likely a spreadsheet with supporting documents/receipts) and then sit back and wait.

If she gets you what you need...send her more money.  If she doesn't...don't send it.

If she is curious/interested...she will ask questions and reach out.


Best,

FF

[formflier]

As an aside, please know that I completely get what you are saying about the relative luxury that college kids have these days.

I've put several through college (with many more to come) and it's amazing all the perks they have.

Best,

FF