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Author Topic: Staying strong with plans to vacation with kids in March  (Read 440 times)
kells76
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« on: January 07, 2021, 12:34:07 PM »

Related to this fun, from back in August: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345665.0

We've been planning a trip with the kids to Mexico since January 2020. Emailed the kids' mom in June 2020:

Excerpt
Hi Kids' Mom;

We plan to take the kids to spend time with my family near Town, State, Mexico [a fairly safe and touristy one], during Spring Break 2021, which will be (at best guess) [date in March], through [date in March]. As the time to buy tickets gets closer, let's talk more about dates -- we may either need some flexibility with departure and arrival dates, or we can give you flexibility, as we don't want to encroach on your weekend time [dates in March] if at all possible.

Here is a link to photos of their place, where we will be staying: (link)

Volunteer, educational, and outdoor opportunities include:

[list of things to do]

Let's set up passport appointments for the kids by [Month] this year. I think we'll need both of us there, plus birth certificates. I'm happy to set those up -- just let me know any times or dates that don't work, and we can schedule around that.

The area itself is fairly safe; we'll keep an ear out for any changes over the coming months, and will make sure to share those with you if anything comes up. The girls are so excited about this!

Best;

DH

No response from Mom at any time then or after. No concerns raised in email, on paper, or verbally.

Passport appointment was October 2019; Mom was physically there. Passport office needed followup paperwork re: her name change, DH emailed her about that a month or two ago, and AFAIK she sent them the required paperwork.

DH's family got plane tickets for us yesterday.

DH checked in with SD14 yesterday. Apparently she has overheard Mom, I'm guessing at Mom's house, be vehemently opposed to the trip. SD14 told DH that SD14 just wants to go and have a good time, but she knows there is a lot going on behind the scenes.

DH was feeling really activated and actually asked me yesterday if he should get in touch with his family and have them cancel the tickets.

I told him: "Has it EVER worked to give Mom what she "wants"? When she shakes you down for milk money, and you give it to her, does that stop the bullying? Has that EVER made any interaction go better in the future, to appease her now? Also, she's the kind of person who just spouts off whatever she's feeling. Should we tie our actions to her unpredictable feelings? Also, you told your family that you want to make this happen, because you want to be the kind of person who follows through on what he tells the kids. You need to stand strong and press forward."

We aren't going to a state on the "do not travel to" list from the US State Department. It is a state on the "reconsider" list, though not due to COVID. The specific area we're going to in the state is fine for US gov't employee travel. DH's family is down there right now (they go multiple times a year) and it's normal. The "reconsider travel" list includes Canada and Japan, for context.

...

So, we are moving forward "as if" we didn't know what SD14 told us about Mom. It's not our job to make Mom share her feelings. If she has safety concerns, I told DH, it is her job to communicate those now.

Thoughts?[/list]
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CoherentMoose
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2021, 01:22:29 PM »

Agree with you 100% Kells!  Live your lives as best you can.  It is short.   Visiting family is important, and it sounds like a great trip.  I'm jealous...I'm amazed at how one person can negatively affect so many other people.  But then, it is what it is and we do our best to keep the children out of the middle.  Sometimes though, it's not possible and we have to live our lives too.    Hopefully, modeling for them what a stable and loving relationship will pay off for your step-children in the long run.  Good luck!  CoMo
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kells76
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2021, 01:42:41 PM »

Excerpt
Live your lives as best you can.  It is short.   Visiting family is important, and it sounds like a great trip.

That's my hope, that we can stay strong in that focus.

I am afraid that either Mom will somehow "convince" (i.e. get the kids to tell her) the kids that they don't "really" want to go, or that DH and I will show up to pick up the kids in March, and she will covertly stop them from going with us.

I think if that happened, then DH and I would have to be strong enough to tell the kids on Mom's front porch: "I'm so sorry it's hard for you; kells76 and I are going no matter what. We are sad you are missing out and look forward to seeing you when we get back".

I think that would be really hard.
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kells76
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2021, 01:49:59 PM »

I think the other thing I'm afraid of is that it will derail into a debate about safety.

I get that there are both COVID and crime safety concerns. I would guess that from Mom it is 80% COVID / 20% crime safety concerns.

Because views on COVID are often "religious", I'm concerned that instead of there being true discussion or back-and-forth, it would turn into "proclamations" from Mom that "she is the expert" and "she already knows it isn't safe to travel, end of discussion".

I work in biotech... I'm not an epidemiologist or virologist, but I look at data a lot. I'm not convinced it isn't safe to travel, and I think airplanes are probably pretty safe COVID-wise, all things considered.

I just am not sure how to keep things on the rails if Mom starts with "safety concerns". Because I KNOW it isn't really about safety... it's about control. So none of her "safety concerns" would be answerable... because they aren't her concern. And if none of them are answerable, "then we have no right to take the kids into an unsafe situation if you can't answer my safety concerns to my satisfaction".

Are we past the point yet of it being "irresponsible" / "child abuse" / etc to travel out of the country? I feel like last year, yeah, I get it, there were a LOT more unknowns. But now... it seems pretty clear if you're gonna get COVID, it's going to be through doing something in your own home. Really not from a plane or airport or whatever.

IDK... trying to game out ahead of time how to respond, if at all, to "it isn't safe" accusations being tossed at us, if (a) I know it isn't really about safety concerns, and (b) it's not like actual data is going to change her mind.
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worriedStepmom
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2021, 02:18:12 PM »

I think you are conflating multiple things.

1) Triangulation - you/H, mom, SD14
I would absolutely not make decisions based on something a kid told me that the other parent said.  NOPE.  If mom has concerns, mom can make those directly to H.

2) mom negatively influencing the children / children not wanting to go

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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2021, 02:21:22 PM »

Because views on COVID are often "religious",  

And they are this way even for very reasonable people.

I had the most frustrating session with my P (phD level psychologist) today that I've ever had.  She personally is high risk for health (we do virtual sessions now) and she referenced that we should have followed CDC guidance for Thanksgiving and she was saying things that weren't on the CDC website.  So...I mentioned what was actually on there and things kinda went off the rails.  

Essentially, everyone should always choose the most conservative path ever (her apparent argument) because people are dying (and they are).

So...I say this to make sure that you double down on your empathy when and if this comes up.

And...I'm waffling now on if you should be proactive in removing reasonable arguments by loading her up with your safety procedures.

Such as

"Hey...we are very concerned about the pandemic situation.  I imagine you are as well.  I wanted to share with you that we are making sure each child has X number of extra N95 masks and extra hand sanitizer in their bags, and abc and xyz.  Can you think of other preparations to help make this trip a safe success?"

So...one would think a reasonable person would look at that and go.."Wow and ..they are thinking in through" and perhaps it would give an iffy pwBPD pause to cause a scene.

Or..it could be the final trigger that sets off the nuke.

How do you think this would play out?

Best,

FF
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worriedStepmom
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2021, 02:22:00 PM »

oops...anyway, for 2)
mom has no legal say in what you and H do.  You do not have to take her worries into consideration AT ALL.

H has to decide at some point whether he is in charge of visitation or the children are.  So far, he's seemed to allow the children to make the calls, so as not to rock the boat.  I'm going to assume he isn't ready to change to...so you ought to spend the next 2 months majorly talking up this trip and how much fun it's going to be and what you're going to do, etc

3) Safety concerns
I've been extremely cautious about COVID precautions...yet we will likely be on an airplane in April to go to a volleyball tournament.

You could get COVID in your hometown, on an airplane, at your destination.  It is up to you to determine your COVID risk and the precautions your household is comfortable taking.  If mom is that concerned, the solution isn't to keep the kids away from the trip, but to quarantine them at your house after you get back until everyone is sure they are okay.
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2021, 03:04:46 PM »

The politicization of Covid has been one of the more interesting (read distressing) trends of 2020.  The fact that BPDs will use the fear of Covid for control is not surprising. 

In my relationship, it comes into play through the children.  However, I intend to live and there are some upcoming difficult decisions my fiancé will have to make.  For example, I want to snow ski this year.  I will be going.  She and her children can join me, or not.  That is OK, it's her decision to make and I will completely understand if she stays home.  I will be disappointed to be sure, but that is part of relationships.

You and your husband may have to make a difficult decision about going on a trip without the children.  Keep living life, visit family, take lots of pictures, and hope your step-children will observe and live their own lives with your values when they get older.  CoMo

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kells76
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2021, 03:05:34 PM »

FF, briefly, DH and I have been through something similar to this back in March when our state's gov said "lockdown". The kids' mom wanted to "suspend" parenting time if DH and I didn't take time off of work. We couldn't -- both essential workers -- so here is how it played out:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343916.msg13106181#msg13106181

What ended up working for us was that the CDC released guidance the day before the start of our parenting time, and we emailed that to Mom with the following tone: "oh wow, you might have seen this already, but the CDC just released guidance for our situation! The kids will be so relieved. Please share this with them so they don't have to worry!"

The "play" was:

Cite an authority, and assume there was no way Mom could possibly disagree, then "share delight together with her" that the kids would be fine. Proceed with pickup as usual.

We'll see if we need to / end up doing that move in March.
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kells76
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2021, 03:54:11 PM »

Hey WSM;

Excerpt
I think you are conflating multiple things.

1) Triangulation - you/H, mom, SD14
I would absolutely not make decisions based on something a kid told me that the other parent said.  NOPE.  If mom has concerns, mom can make those directly to H.

2) mom negatively influencing the children / children not wanting to go
mom has no legal say in what you and H do.  You do not have to take her worries into consideration AT ALL.

H has to decide at some point whether he is in charge of visitation or the children are.  So far, he's seemed to allow the children to make the calls, so as not to rock the boat.  I'm going to assume he isn't ready to change to...so you ought to spend the next 2 months majorly talking up this trip and how much fun it's going to be and what you're going to do, etc

3) Safety concerns
I've been extremely cautious about COVID precautions...yet we will likely be on an airplane in April to go to a volleyball tournament.

You could get COVID in your hometown, on an airplane, at your destination.  It is up to you to determine your COVID risk and the precautions your household is comfortable taking.  If mom is that concerned, the solution isn't to keep the kids away from the trip, but to quarantine them at your house after you get back until everyone is sure they are okay.

Yes, that's helpful to separate out the strands. Should be a  Yellow flag/questionable (click to insert in post) to me when things seem "complicated" that there are a few aspects to the situation.

1. Makes sense, and seems tied to "overfunctioning" for Mom. I.e., she is an adult and she can communicate. It's not SD14's job to tell us "what Mom thinks" or our job to "reach out to Mom to make sure she shares with us". I think DH is on board with this concept.

2. The only legal concern I'd have is if there's some precedent somewhere that "it's obvious that taking the kids out of the country during COVID will be seen as endangerment" or something. I'll check avvo.com but I feel like the answers are generally "it depends".

3. We're definitely on the same page that you can get COVID just as easily in your hometown as out of the country, depending on your riskiness/preexisting conditions. My sense is that airplane companies, after hemorrhaging money earlier in 2020, have a huge interest in being 110% safe and not having to shut down due to spreading covid. I've also heard that they actually have HEPA filters (virus level) on the planes. Better than the bus or grocery store.

...

Excerpt
If mom is that concerned, the solution isn't to keep the kids away from the trip, but to quarantine them at your house after you get back until everyone is sure they are okay.

Yeah, I think the answer to all of these issues lies with DH. If he is willing to stay strong and not cave to her BS. Because I promise you, if we offered that, she'd say "but the kids don't want to". So it's kind of up to DH if he will push back and say "Either they stay with us after the trip due to your concern, or we send them to your place after the trip. It's your call and we are all going."
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kells76
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2021, 01:45:38 PM »

We went! And came back! And no covid!

Picked kids up night before departure (so that Mom couldn't "forget to wake them up" the next morning. AFAIK, no last moves to keep the kids from going -- nothing visible.

Kids ultimately had a great time. SD12 was a total champ, able to say what she did/didn't want to do and did/didn't want to eat, rolled with everything, just enjoyed each day. Swam almost 24/7. Great attitude. Dropped her plane tickets REGULARLY, so she's not flying on her own for... a while.

SD15 had a HARD time the first few days. Occasional saucy attitude, complain-y, not grateful. Definitely mood roller coaster -- would go from loving a new situation to deeply homesick in minutes. After a few days she was able to relax and let down her walls. She still has a chip on her shoulder about DH's folks (they have money and vacation differently than we usually do), but if SD15 is really about celebrating diversity, it's important that she accept that different people live life differently.

Both DH and I made sure to tell her that we were proud of her for challenging herself, and that we knew how hard it was for her to go out of her comfort zone and routine.

We were in a relatively safe area, so the kids got to go around town on their own a couple of times. Grateful they got that opportunity. And grateful they could see that at their ages and with their health, covid really isn't something they need to worry about. They can live "normal" lives, not guided by fear, and be fine.

Will be interesting to see if Mom spins the fact that the kids had a good time as "she was always supportive of this educational and edifying trip". Even SD15 told us that she'd heard Mom say Mom didn't want them to go.

Eh, who cares. So glad DH stuck to his guns. I hope that is something the kids can remember -- DH sticks to the plan no matter what Mom says, and things are actually fine, not a disaster.
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2021, 02:00:34 PM »

Yay!  I am glad it worked out okay and you had a good time as a family  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2021, 02:01:01 PM »

That’s awesome you were able to have a great trip!

I’m reminded of a piece of advice from one of my favorite movies: Now, Voyager (sorry, classic film nerd): “Stick to your guns, but don’t fire.” I always took that as “Stand strong and firm but don’t go nuclear or escalate a situation even if provoked.” I try to remember that, though I’m not always successful!
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2021, 06:26:39 PM »

So glad you were able to enjoy downtime and make good memories!
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kells76
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2021, 01:13:02 PM »

Thank you guys... it was good to get away. Already planning more time not at work... was getting used to getting paid to not be there  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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