Legal question: someone called the police on my wife

[maxsterling]

Hi -

Been a while since I have been on this board.  Things are pretty much the same with me since the last time I was here.  I do remember there was once a legal board, but I don't seem to see it now - but I have a legal related question.

Between COVID and geopolitical uncertainty, W has been in a state of deep depression/dysregulation for the past year.  Her T basically says if not for the virus she would recommend in-patient care.  Normally every weekend, I deal with rage.  Today was no different.  The trigger?  Not sure - had something to do with that D3 chose yellow to paint with, and that I should have suggested another color because yellow is not opaque enough.  That started a whole rage, that followed the path of her grabbing a suitcase, saying she was leaving, a bunch of insults, curse words, loud yelling, literal foaming at the mouth.  All this in the back yard.

I've learned the only thing I can do is leave.  Just say "bye", walk/drive away and come back in a few hours.  My feeling is that I am the trigger for her rage, and she will calm down in front of the kids after I leave.  If I don't leave, she she stays and rages and won't leave on her own.  So better that I just leave so that that she can return to some kind of "calm" on her own.  I feel nervous about leaving a raging W with the kids, but again I trust that she calms down after I leave.  So far, nothing bad has happened.

Today, after I left, someone called the police on W.  She assumed it was me, but I told her it was not me.  I am guessing it was a neighbor or passerby, or maybe the police were just driving by and overheard her.  I haven't asked for the details (I would rather that conversation be done). 

So my legal question - I am guessing someone called a wellness check on her.  Had they come by and found some reason to arrest her, could I be held liable for leaving her with the kids, knowing she is raging?  At the time I left, she was doing nothing more than yelling/cursing at me.   

I'm really at a loss for what to do in these situations.  Previously, I stayed home thinking the kids needed protection.  But staying only made her rage escalate.  I have called police before, before we had kids.  I only called if she threatened suicide.  Generally, the police were unhelpful, because W would basically turn off her rage like a switch, or she would refuse help. 

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[Gemsforeyes]

Hey Max-

I’m really sorry you find yourself in such a difficult situation with your BPDw.  So very sad... and in the times where she rages uncontrollably, you’ve obviously found that leaving for a time has worked to calm her down.  I read in your past posts where you were recording some of her rages... have you done that recently?  May be something to consider in order to protect yourself.

As far as the police call today, I’m wondering if you can make a private visit to the local police station and inquire about what prompted their visit... and the outcome of that visit.  You may or may NOT wish to disclose that you left in the middle of her explosive rage.  But - if you DO disclose that you left while she was raging, be very very clear that the rage was directed at you and you alone, and NOT at your toddlers.

I could be wrong?

Also, the board for legal issues is now combined with the Conflicting board.

If there are any other issues you wish to discuss, Max, please do.  For instance, have you ever talked with your W about the need to leave when she feels this way (IF that kind of conversation is ever possible); and perhaps taking the children so she has a break to really collect and calm herself?

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Notwendy]

What is the reason you don't take the kids with you when you leave to let her calm down?

You assume she calms down and the kids are OK, but there's really no way to know what happens or what they witness. Perhaps she won't physically abuse the kids, but you don't know what they see or hear or how they might feel when they see that their father left.

I think grabbing the kids and leaving without warning would escalate things but once she has calmed down and when nothing is happening, I think it's fair to say "when things get like this, I plan to bring the kids with me and give you some space to calm down" so she's aware that this is what you plan to do.

I don't know the legal ramifications of leaving the kids with her when she's raging but surely there has to be emotional consequences. And who knew to call the police - was she screaming, what was she doing to alert them to that. If it was serious enough to call the police, the kids must have seen it too. The kids though are too young to know what is going on or to say something about it.

I am not sure what the expectation of your wife is when it comes to child care or if she's even emotionally competent to take care of them. If she's dealing with depression she might not be able to.

Max, I feel for your situation and know it is tough. I've followed your story for a long time. I am sorry you are back but glad you can come here for support. I remember your situation well as there are parallels to my own parents and the dynamics in my family of origin with a Dad stretched in all ways doing the best he can with us kids and my severely affected BPD mom.  I do know that when we were small, he took us with him when he had to leave during these times and I am glad he did. Once we were older, he left us alone with her assuming we could fend for ourselves. But some of the things we saw and heard are not things a child should witness.

And yet, as much as I understand your situation and have only empathy for it, I'm going to stand up for the kids here Max, because when it came right down to it, nobody stood up for us and either listened to us or believed us if we even dared to speak about my mother and the situation was minimized in order to protect her, not us. Another reason to leave us with her was that, if left alone in a rage, she might harm herself.

But in your situation, someone heard something and stepped in to call the police on a situation they were concerned about and this warrants some consideration of if the kids really were OK or not. If it was noticeable or they could hear it outside the house, the kids surely heard it and saw it too.

I know you love your kids are are most likely stressed as much as you can be, but what can you do to get the kids out of the house on the weekends, give her some alone time, get them some respite from the drama. It's tough in a pandemic but even a ride in the car might help get them away for a bit. But I am concerned about them being alone with her when she's raging- whether there are legal consequences or not. There is no telling what they saw or heard. Please think beyond legal consequences when thinking about the kids being left with her.

[maxsterling]

Thank you for the replies.

As to why not take the kids...Wendy, I appreciate your viewpoint.  This is an impossibly tough situation, and your comment reminds me *exactly* of what W says about her parents and her Dad leaving her with BPD mom.  I feel for her dad, though, because that was early 1980s, and I don't know if he had many options custody wise. 

I think part of me has gotten quite numb to all this, and it's hard for me to take a step back and see how bad this it.  For me it's like "W is raging again - how best to manage the situation in the moment - she will take her meds/call T and some sort of normal will return in a few hours".   Having someone else call police was definitely eye opening as it reminded me just how bad things are.  I did audio record her rage this morning, just in case.

Leaving with the kids - sometimes logistically impossible.  I am dealing with two 4 year olds, who may not want to go in that type of situation.  Rushing them into a car just doesn't work.  The one time I did they got to see W try and hurt herself.  I have talked to the kids afterwards, and while they don't understand they do tell me that mommy calms down after I leave.

I do try and get them out with just dad as much as I can.  We usually have a good time just the three of us.  This does affect them.  I have talked with Ts and Ls about possible separation, and the argument in favor of that is that at least the kids will be in a stable situation half the time.  Financially, that is almost impossible right now, though. 

The positive thing that is different from a few years ago is that W does now admit that she has serious issues and has taken steps to address them.  I think part of that is the reason for the rage - working through problems brings up a ton of shame and raw emotions for her.  She is working with two Ts and one P right now, has done some DBT (virtual) the past year.

The hard part for me is that the tools here are nearly impossible to apply with that kind of rage.  It is hard to validate when the situation goes from 0 to 100 in the snap of a finger and I have no idea what to validate because I have no idea what the issue is.  And once she is at 100, there is no way of getting that information out of her.  Take for instance this morning - I was helping the kids with an arts and crafts project.  W was looking online for a new sticker/rewards chart for the kids.  Suddenly she rages about how I am making her look for a new sticker chart, something she does not want to do.  This made no sense to me, because I had not instructed her to do that.  When I told her I felt confused about what she was upset about, she accused me of invalidating her and gaslighting her?  I can validate that she is very mad, but I have no way of validating why she is mad because it makes no sense to me, other than that she is mad at something, and that I happen to be in the room so I am to blame. (I suspect she was mad because the kids are having difficulty potty training, she internally blames herself, but because that makes her feel too rotten she lashes out at me.  The sticker chart is a potty training rewards chart).

And the other strange thing is that before, W would fume and sulk for days/weeks.  Lately it comes on immediately, and ends immediately.  Example - she has made ZERO mention of the police coming over, other than the initial inquiry.  Normally that is something she would bring up over and over for MONTHS.  She has moved past it already.  And this morning, she was raging and saying she was gong to move out, etc, and and two hours later talking about adding on to the house. 

[formflier]

Have you discussed this with your T?  What kind of recommendations do you have there.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Max, it seems your wife's rages come on quickly and then, when over forgotten and the issue is forgotten or she at least doesn't discuss it.

I call this the dry erase method. Like a dry erase board, once it's gone, it's gone and not discussed. Whether she's aware of what happened or not, it's now gone away. It's somewhat magical thinking but it's the way she copes with it and that is also the expectation of you.

I think it involves shame and shame is too much to handle, so erasing an event from ever happening is the coping mechanism. The police didn't happen if you don't discuss or acknowlege it.

For me this is a tough aspect of BPD, because if someone copes this way, they don't learn from the experience. If someone is upset and feels shame that the police came they might decide to not do what they did again. If it didn't happen, there's no learning.

There's also not much chance for resolution. If someone does something hurtful to someone else, they can apologize and try to make a repair of the relationship. When it doesn't happen in their minds and everyone else is expected to go along with that, it's just the way it is. I think this is one reason you have gone sort of numb to it. It's the only option one might have.

This has been the pattern in my FOO. We all just go on. Yes, something  happened but over time, we just learn to forget about it, as discussions are futile.

My BPD mom would have these giant rages, my parents would argue, or Dad would walk out of the house. The next day they'd be sitting at the table acting just fine. If we asked or brought it up, it was dismissed. " all families have arguments, it's all fine".  This was our "normal" and we all had to go along with it and did.

I don't think one can communicate rationally during the kind of rage your wife has in the moment. I think even talking to her can escalate it or it's going to happen anyway. I think that the rages are how they manage their feelings - it's a sort of reset button for them. There are better ways to manage feelings but they are not able to do that, and this is like a steam kettle boiling over for them. Once someone is at this state, they are completely flooded with the emotions and can not think in the moment. I don't think they have any control over it in the moment.

I have observed my mother doing this. Afterwards, she seems unaware of what happened or if she is aware, it seems less than the intensity of what happened. After it's over for her, she does feel better and so assumes we all feel OK too. We have experienced what happened but in her state, she has not.
It's like a kid who ate too much candy and feels better after they throw it up. It's over for them.

I also don't think there needs to be a "reason" for these rages but they don't see this as coming from them, but an external source. Whatever happened to set them off is the "reason" but it's not really. The reason is a build up of feelings that need to be released. So when they come up with " it's the stickers" and you try to fix the issue in the moment, this seems irrational. This is because the "reason" isn't the reason, and fixing the "reason" doesn't work.

We have done this countless times with BPD mom. If she's raged over something, we fix it- whatever it is and then the rages keep happening because- they need to.

It might help for you to see these rages through a scientific lense- not try to fix them or validate her or think you can resolve them, because I think they are not caused by something external. Your job though is not to react to them. Yes, one moment she says she's leaving and the next one decorating the house. That's her. Her feelings might change that fast. It might help you to not take what she says as personally.

As for the kids, yes, they are going to be affected by this. I think how much is complicated. One part is their resilience and the other is having you take on as much parenting as you can. Another is some kind of respite. We would stay with my father's family at times. It gave us some respite from my mother's moods and also some other role models. School was also a big help- your kids are small and in a pandemic, school may not be an option, but being away from home during the day also helped. It's a tough situation for you, I know.

[Serenitywithin]

So I can tell you I used to think the same thing that if I left Wife would calm down. I have 4 children. Now my 15 and 12 yr old girls are both in therapy and they said Mom was worse when I was gone and are telling me horror stories the last couple of years of the things she did while I was away. I am about to go through a divorce and the kids therapist is pretty sure I should have done it along time ago.

My wife is a teacher and worked in a day care. she is absolutely fabulous with other peoples kids, but with our own she is spitefull thinks me and the kids are always planning things without her. So my words of wisdom to you are if you leave the kids when she rages have some sort of nanny cam or camara so you can see what is going on. I ended up having to do this and just had to stop leaving.

Your situation might be different but I was in denial for a long time and I  am still in the FOG very heavy about actually filing for divorce. I dont tell you my story to scare you, but I do warn you to protect your children's little hearts and minds. The things that emotional abuse and the things that a triggered Mom can say to kids can really shape their perceptions and cause major damage to self esteem and self image when they are young. My girls are struggling now with self esteem and Anger.

God Bless and good luck .

[Cat Familiar]

So what is your big picture plan, Max? It sounds as if you’ve been coping day to day for years now. I’m sorry that you find yourself in this position, and that her dream of being a mother has not brought her lasting contentment.

[maxsterling]

Thank you for the truly excellent replies, everyone. 

As for my T - I haven't had one for a couple of years.  The last one I went to regularly basically flat out told me that there was not much she could do for me anymore as long as I was in an abusive relationship.  I tended to agree.  She helped me with communication skills and understanding what was going on, but after seeing her for two years the focus basically became on how I could cope, and how to persuade W to get help (we realized many of the communication tools were ineffective).  She moved offices to a location that was inconvenient, then with the kids there wasn't much free time. 

I also had a P helping me with ADHD issues, but he suspected part of the treatment for ADHD meant learning to deal with an unstable W and being overburdened with 90% of the household/parenting responsibilities.  He was a cool guy and fun to talk to.  But he also had to move offices, and haven't a new P yet mainly because I don't think it was really helping me.   As for now, I haven't looked for a new T because of COVID, and don't think I can get the time/privacy for telehealth with W and kids in the house.  COVID and social unrest has meant that I haven't worked from the office for a year.  Normally that was the time I could talk to a T on my lunch break. 

Wendy - I think you are spot on here.  If I had called the police, she would have brought it up over and over ever time she was upset.  But because it wasn't me, there is no reason for her to bring it up.  After a conflict has subsided, she remembers there was a conflict, but at least outwardly she just expresses that it was a "fight".  She recently got into a huge fight with a friend.  I saw this coming for a year.  She finally blew up at the friend (and was horribly mean), but now her view of what happened is completely different than what I observed.  And I agree, if there is no "reason" for the rage, she manufactures one.  There needs to be some kind of manifestation for her feelings.  Same goes for physical ailments.  She is constantly manufacturing physical ailments.  That's what makes this feel so impossible to me.  I literally could be sitting on the sofa, and she could come storming in at rage level 100 and I have no idea why.  Getting information out of her at that point that I can work with is impossible, and when I do it makes no sense.  The other day she came outside raging because the exterior door was left open while she was in the shower.  But she opened the door, she admitted she opened the door prior to going into the shower, and I and the kids were in a different part of the yard and would have no way of knowing the door was open.  She says she needs me to respond with some kind of validation in that situation - but I don't know what she wants validation for.

As for school/preschool.  Yes, that is the hope.  Or extended visits with grandparents once the virus situation wanes.  Problem is W does not trust my parents, and that is another issue.  W would greatly benefit from alone time.  I have been encouraging it for years, and when she does it makes everyone's life better. 

Serenitywithin - The kids are about to turn 4.  They are old enough now that I have been asking them what they did while daddy was gone, what mommy did, etc.  They are pretty good about telling me things, but so far they tell me "mommy was upset, then she calmed down, and we played playdoh."  I've thought about getting recording devices, but worry about consequences should one be discovered. Audio - maybe.  Camera may be difficult. 

CatFamiliar - I would say it has been day-to-day for about 9 months.  Before that were some periods of calm.  You are right about being a mother.  I think she felt being a mother would make her "right".  Now she feels shame because it hasn't.  She blames some of it on having twins, but I don't think the situation would be that much different with one kids.  Now her new thing is that our house is not big enough.  Her ideas on solving that issue aren't good financial decisions and probably based on anxiety.  The reality is based on cost of living, we probably can't afford much more right now.  And the other reality is she will realize 6 months after moving that it did not solve her issues, and that we are in a worse financial situation for having taken on more, and then carry that shame. 

[formflier]

Have you tried having a consequence every time she looses control?

Such as calling the police or leaving with the kids?

If this has been tried, how long was it tried for?

Here is the thing...what are the consequences for her behavior?

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

Have you tried having a consequence every time she looses control?

Such as calling the police or leaving with the kids?

If this has been tried, how long was it tried for?

Here is the thing...what are the consequences for her behavior?

Best,

FF

I used to call police every time she either threatened to kill herself, or threatened to physically hurt me, herself, or someone/something else.  The results:  Suicide attempt, "turning it off" for the police so that they could not legally do anything because they did not see anything, abuse by the police, and a few times of police basically telling me something like "that *** i crazy.  When I had a GF like that I just left for a few days and she just moved out and I never heard from her again."  When I tried to leave with the kids one time, basically another suicide/self harm attempt.   

I am learning she has had a lifetime of people giving her consequences, and behavior does not change for the better.  Usually changes things for the worse.  I learned recently that I'm not the first partner to have called police.  Instead of "woah, I've done something bad and I could wind up in jail", it becomes more evidence that everyone in her life mistreats her, does not understand her, and refuses to validate her feelings.

My sad prediction:  some day she will snap at someone in a public place and be charged with assault.  She sometimes says she knows this will happen.  She is sometimes self-aware in this way. 

[formflier]

I'm not suggesting any course of action, I'm just trying to "troubleshoot" and make sure any and all courses of action have been tried or considered in a thoughtful way.

What about calling the police and waiting for them to arrive before leaving with the children?

Or perhaps calling the police and then leaving with kids, let them deal with the mess when they arrive?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Serenitywithin, I agree that denial is one way of coping. These are challening situations. In my parents' case, I think denial was a large way of coping but also don't think other options were really a consideration. At one point, one does what they need to do to get by.

We also went through the thinking something "external" would fix BPD mom. As max said- first it was becoming a mother and that didn't work , so blame the stress of having twins. Now it's a bigger house. The focus is on the external, so you run to fix the external and that doesn't work because that wasn't the issue in the first place. The problem is intrinsic to BPD- but the perception of the problem is external. We went through the "if we did this or that mother would be OK" and honestly, we wanted her to be OK and would do whatever we could possibly do so she could be OK. Maybe a focus on not fixing the "external" to fix her but as something you too  would make it less disappointing if it doesn't help the BPD issues. If you wanted a larger house that is something you would enjoy as well.

I think the best of the interventions we had, along with some counseling, was time away from BPD mom- staying with relatives, schools. My mother also dislikes my father's family but I guess she also saw the benefits in having some time to herself. Maybe after the pandemic your wife can enjoy some alone time too.

[maxsterling]

What about calling the police and waiting for them to arrive before leaving with the children?

This is probably the only way I can safely leave with the kids right now.  If I try without anyone else there, it becomes a major escalation, and a potential dangerous situation.  I could leave, call police, and come back to take the kids once police show up,  and leave police to sort it out.  As this would be a significant event that would destabilize things, I have to carefully think about what I want going forward (prepare for separation, etc).

Wendy - It's funny how one can see things clearly in hindsight, and still have difficulty not making the same mistake again.  If you look at W's life, she clearly has a pattern of looking to external fixes.  Moving to different apartments, different countries, new SO, material things, etc.  She moves furniture around probably every other month.  She moved here from a foreign country to be with me.  I didn't see it at the time, but that was an attempt at an external "fix".  Moving to the foreign country in the first place was the same.  Each time, the "peace" it brought lasted a few months.  So even if I wanted a bigger house (I do), I know such a mood would incur stress and destabilization from W that I would have to deal with along with the normal stress of moving. 

[formflier]

So...Maxsterling, it's good to chat with you again.  Over time, I tried to learn to get to the point quicker...so here goes.

It's obvious the current situation isn't "working".  

I can't imagine "successfully" making a change to a new strategy without sound, close consultation with a T that can guide you.  I'm not saying it's impossible, but we all get the best chance is with lots of help and support.

Because...once you start with the new strategy, you can't turn back.  

Even when things look bleak, you need to keep pressing.  

If you don't have a "team" around you for support to do this then I have a hard time imagining this goes anything close to well.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Like I said Max, sometimes denial is the only way one can get through this. It's hard to see what might be difficult, and if one is in survival mode, one doesn't really have the time or mental energy to do so.

Back to your question- are you liable for leaving the kids if someone calls the police? I think they would need actual proof of abuse/severe neglect to take any action. Anyone can call the police but if they show up and are greeted by a calm pleasant wife who can hold it together and there is no evidence on the kids, they don't have proof  of abuse/neglect. At this point it would be the words of the kids or your wife's and from my experience nobody ever believed us, even if we tried to say something until we just gave up. Emotional abuse is hard to prove. But just because one can't prove it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

[formflier]

Like I said Max, sometimes denial is the only way one can get through this. It's hard to see what might be difficult, and if one is in survival mode, one doesn't really have the time or mental energy to do so
 

And...I want to clarify.  I'm not against leaving things "status quo" or "using denial".  I've been there before...and got through things.

So...please don't "hear" any of my words as criticism or saying you are doing anything wrong. 

Do hear me words saying that unless you dramatically change you approach, I think things will look the same a year from now.

We've got your back!

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

And...I want to clarify.  I'm not against leaving things "status quo" or "using denial".  I've been there before...and got through things.

So...please don't "hear" any of my words as criticism or saying you are doing anything wrong. 

Do hear me words saying that unless you dramatically change you approach, I think things will look the same a year from now.

We've got your back!

Best,

FF

I completely understand what you are saying.  That's one thing I have learned over the past few years.  I can find my own coping mechanisms, create a new normal, work on communication tools the best I can, self care, etc, but I none of that changes the other half.  I've got a few coping strategies, such as taking time for myself after everyone else goes to sleep,  staying involved in hobbies when I have a few mins here or there, taking advantage of times I have in the office, etc.  It gets me through the day/week, and has gotten me through the past year.  How much longer?  Who knows.  Wife has two Ts and a P, several sessions per week.  She is working on herself. Change?  Some.  But the amount of rage doesn't seem to diminish.  Long term realization for me is that the best way to take care of myself (and the kids) likely means separation.  I'm probably not ready to initiate that right now.  I've lost most expectations that anything will improve much in the current situation.  All the things W says would help her feel less anxiety - more money, bigger house, or different location won't help.  Possibly if we had a huge property with a guest house and either W or I could move into the guest house...

She did bring up the police today.  She pointed to badge stickers the kids had.  She mad some comment about how I had not made notice of them.  I asked her what happened, reiterating that I had nothing to do with it.  She said "someone" called police, two cars came to the house.  They asked her what was going on and took notice of a chair that was upside down in the back yard.  She told them it was in front of the door and got knocked over when she opened the door.  She said she and I had gotten into an argument and that I had left.  I am guessing they looked for any evidence of things, said hi to the kids, and left when W put on a calm face.

That brings up another question I have for myself - what would I have done or what would police have done had I still been here. 

[Notwendy]

I am not a lawyer and the legal board has been merged with the conflicted board so maybe that's a better place to ask legal questions.

From what I have read on this board is that one concern if you were there would be to be falsely blamed for domestic abuse. If your wife panicked with the police being there, and possibly being blamed for something she may have accused you of being violent- accused you of throwing the chair.

IMHO, the police would have been more likely to charge a man for domestic abuse seeing the wife being upset than accusing a mother of child abuse. Although both men and women can be domestic abusers, our culture tends to go with the man as abuser. So it might be that you would have to prove your innocence in that situation.

Just my 2cents.

[Notwendy]

I wonder what prompted the call. Do you live in place where others could hear an argument? An apartment? Houses near each other. If not, then it had to be pretty loud. With the chair outside, was your wife outside yelling? Whatever it was, it must have concerned the caller and it was probably one of your neighbors?

Another possibility- did your wife call 911 after you left? Maybe she dialed it, changed her mind, hung up and the police came to check it out.

[maxsterling]

I wonder what prompted the call. Do you live in place where others could hear an argument? An apartment? Houses near each other. If not, then it had to be pretty loud. With the chair outside, was your wife outside yelling? Whatever it was, it must have concerned the caller and it was probably one of your neighbors?

Another possibility- did your wife call 911 after you left? Maybe she dialed it, changed her mind, hung up and the police came to check it out.

W was loud enough that someone 4 hoyses away could probably hear her.  That means any of 10 neighbors or a person walking down the street.   Her words during the "argument":  "Why dont you just call the police on me?"  Someone apparently did.

[HopinAndPrayin]

Max, I say this with true empathy for your situation, but I also recognize some giant red flags in what you are saying and a real potential that you are trying to calm yourself and your own worry down and not address a giant wake up call.

1. You should talk with an attorney who has experience dealing with your local department of social services or department of public safety or department of child services, whatever it is called there.  You may be seen as a neglectful parent by a single cop who shows up one of these times. It only takes one and you could lose your kids, be it temporarily or permanently depending on the judge you get and public sentiment in your town / county.

2. You may want to look into getting a T for your children.  Being exposed to verbal and emotional abuse even if it isn’t directed at them can have longterm repercussions to their mental well-being and growth.  There are many child therapists who use play therapy to connect with kids to see if they are experiencing the effects of trauma.

I’m concerned that you’ve been trying to survive your wife for so long that you are missing the escalating signs of danger.

Your neighbor calling the cops on your wife and your concern about your own legal exposure for leaving your children to an unpredictable raging adult should be a wake up call for you that this situation can not continue with the choices you’ve been making.

One of the ways I was finally able to pay attention to the wake up call I experienced was someone describing it as a 3rd party situation.

Imagine someone telling you that there was a woman in the grocery store who started screaming because the box of Corn flakes changed the image on the front of the box and she had young children sitting in her grocery cart.  This woman comes to the grocery store every week and it’s the same story.  Sometimes a man is with the woman and when she really starts screaming, he just walks out of the grocery store and leaves the woman screaming with the kids present.  The manager of the grocery store finally called the cops on the woman.  The next time it happens, the manager is going to call the cops again and also share the report that as the woman starts screaming the man, who seems to know her, leaves like he doesn’t care about the kids or feel the need to protect them.  The cops may end up trying to find him to get information about why he is choosing to leave the children in a situation that could turn violent.

Please do not take people answering your legal exposure on this board as reason to dismiss the wake-up call.  This is also about your responsibility to protect your children from harm.  Dealing with someone with BPD is exhausting and it wears us down.  Please don’t ignore the wake up call.  This situation is on track for it to get so much worse, not better.  PwBPD don’t reverse patterns on their own, without intervention.  They escalate them.  You have a responsibility to protect the health and well-being of your children.  FWIW.

[maxsterling]

HopinandPrayin

Yes, this is a wake up call, and the reason I came back to this board after a few year absence.  Having someone else call police reminded me that things are serious, not getting better, and require a different course of action.  pwBPD are excellent at bringing in the FOG, and I think we can easily get into a mindset that we are partially to blame, that there is something else we can do, or that it isn't as bad as we perceive. 

I think because W has two Ts (mandated reporters) that she is pretty open with about her moods/behaviors, and that we have done T together gave me a sense of security that one of those professionals would recognize a severe situation and take action (you can call it bailing me out, taking responsibility off of me, etc).  The fact that none of them have sent social workers to our house or taken more serious action with W probably planted in my mind an idea that I am making things worse than they are.  Just thinking about it now - maybe her T called police if W messaged T after I left. 

There are some free legal help services that I think I am going to talk to regarding this.  But as mentioned in previous posts - at this point it's not as much about my legal responsibilities and more about doing what it right for the kids.  W is convinced the kids have some kind of "special needs".  Right now they do speech therapy.  The therapist says the kids are somewhat delayed but within the range of what is considered normal for their age.  The speech therapist says their speech issues seem mostly social/emotional related.  The speech therapist knows W has mental health issues. 

W was convinced for awhile that both kids were on the autism spectrum.  People in her family commonly claim others who are different in any way must have autism.   So, we took the kids for a complete neuropsych evaluation, and they said that there are zero signs of autism, and that the behaviors we are observing are likely anxiety related.  W is convinced the anxiety issues are because of her (they likely are).

Getting the kids a T is on my task list.  Covid has made that difficult. 

[Notwendy]

I hope that my posts don't come across as dismissive. I am not a lawyer. I post from my own experience growing up and the acknowlegement that it was a mixed situation. It is very hard to prove emotional abuse and the only way to truly separate children from an emotionally abusive parent is to remove them from the home with supervised visits. In the situation where someone hears shouting, it is still the parents' word vs the accusation. I know that my BPD mother could pull herself together and make a strong case for her point of view. In a way,  the denial of my mother's behavior is what kept the family intact and having my father there was a benefit to all of us.

The other would be separation and for Max to get sole custody with supervised visits and still that would require some legal proof that she's a danger to the children or incompetent. Even if she is, legal proof is hard to obtain when there isn't physical evidence. To say this is posting a "run" message which we don't do. It's not dismissal to say it's a difficult situation and there are benefits and consequences to any decision.

[formflier]

I will add to Notwendy's comments.

There are several stories of men on these boards that separated and initially were at a huge disadvantage with time with their kids and the court "believing their side".

Over a long period of time, "the truth" slowly came out...and it took years of constant pressure and visibility for the court to "see" the dysfunction and even longer for them to act on it.

So...is separation and courts a viable alternative...yes it is.

Is staying together...yes it is.

Both paths are fraught.

Regardless of the "strategic path" that is chosen, I do think that the current way of dealing with outburst is not sustainable.

Maxsterling,


Is that something you agree with or do you think you can keep up the current ways for a long time?  

Best,

FF

[HopinAndPrayin]

Hi notwendy and FF, hope my post wasn’t misconstrued.  I wasn’t saying your posts were dismissive of the danger.  My point was some of us in the midst of trying to survive as the pwBPD continues to escalate,  focus on one small part of an escalating situation while having survival blinders on to the red flags and danger.  We can sometimes do this denial or minimization because we are worn down.  It’s a survival mechanism, but at a certain point becomes maladaptive, if we ignore red flags of danger to ourselves and others.  Hope that helps!

[Notwendy]

A little background- I came to this board to try to understand the dynamics in my own family and also with the question of how I brought some of them into my own marriage. Even though the issues were mild compared to what I grew up with, I could not figure out why I seemed to be recreating the same patterns as I saw in my parents. It was then that I learned about how these family patterns could affect our own choices of romantic partners and how they chose us. Through a counselor I learned about being co-dependent. It wasn't something I was very aware of. It was the "normal" in my family, and the family as a unit dependend on all of us focusing on my BPD mother's wishes and needs. While my father was co-dependent with my mother, he was the more stable parent, the one I saw as "normal" and also the victim of her behavior. I thought she was the problem. Naturally, if a child has two parents, they become the main role models. My mother's behavior is quite severe. I knew I didn't want to behave like that. My father set the standard for behavior in the family and it was mostly admirable- and he also was co-dependent, and being co-dependent is a factor in relationship dysfunction.

One issue I struggled with is this very issue we are discussing. Maybe it was possible for my father to look the other way when it came to my mother's behavior. Somehow I grew up thinking it was acceptable for her to treat me this way, and for others to treat me that way as well, and they did. But somehow this was not acceptable when it came to my children and fortunately they did not have to deal with this kind of behavior growing up and there was no way I would allow my mother to do that. So I had boundaries between her and the kids. I assumed that my father would understand- why would he want her to emotionally abuse my kids? But he didn't. She got angry, he went to her side and got angry at me.

On one hand, I had been trying to understand how my mother could have behaved the way she did with us, and as an adult, knowing she has a mental illness has helped me to make this less personal. It wasn't about me. It is sad that her BPD has impacted the people in the family closest to her, but I can see this more objectively now. The harder part was knowing somehow that my father allowed it and that was more understood when I worked on co-dependency. Not that I think any of it is acceptable. I did not allow my mother to be alone with my own children- ever. They are older now and can set their own boundaries and they do. This played a part in disrupting my relationship with my parents. To stay together, we had to not challenge my mother's behavior. However, I also know I am not married to her and that gave me different choices and circumstances.

The benefits of staying together when we were growing up were there too. If mother was stable, my dad was able to go to work and support us. He could not do this if my mother was acting out or suicidal. Divorce would have left us alone with her more often. Financially we were already trying to keep it together, divorce would have taken a toll on that. My dad was the parent in the family. And as difficult as things were, he always chose her needs and wishes first. How does one reconcile this as the child?  Look at all sides of the situation.

They also say someone doesn't change until they reach their bottom line with this. Maybe the police coming isn't the bottom line. But until someone decides on their own that they need to change things, nothing anyone can say can make them. These are complicated situations.

[maxsterling]

FF - yes, I agree, my current way of dealing with the situation is definitely not sustainable.  How much longer?  I can't say.  Right now may be a time to think about how it is not sustainable, what sustainable would look like in this R, an whether those things are even possible.  But right now I feel may not be the best time to push hard changes without careful consideration.  In other words, the next time something happens is probably not the best time to do something drastically different until I can be more organized on my end.  More on this in a minute.

There was another "red flag" incident last summer, in which W's anger lead to her breaking something, in front of the kids.  It's not the first time W has broken something, but given the circumstances this was a new line that was crossed.  In the immediate aftermath, I did my best to not call too much alarm to the incident with the kids and to make sure their immediate needs were met first.  My next step was how to approach W about what happened - but as it turns out she was ahead of me there.  The incident was enough to frighten her, and she immediately took steps for self help.  She looked for intensive outpatient 5-day per week counseling, and briefly considered in-patient care.  She wound up doing group T three nights a week online (COVID forced this option) that focused on Anger and DBT.  She also found a second T that focuses on DBT.   This is exactly what I would have wanted from her after the incident, so at this point I was satisfied that things were going in the right direction.  There was improvement, but the biggest improvement was that it kept her busy 3 nights per week.

The intensive counseling came to an abrupt end after about 6 weeks due to insurance reasons.  W was starting to grow tired and critical of it anyway, but she did keep the DBT T whom she meets with 2-3 times per week.  That is still positive.  My feeling now is that she needs in-patient care.  She needs to be around professionals 24/7 who can help her with her constant list of medical concerns.   

Thinking more around getting myself organized, and more about Wendy's post above makes me recognize that that being in this type of a relationship means boundaries are pushed, and sometimes both directions tend against our previously held ideals.  On one hand I can have an opinion that a person should immediately leave an abusive relationship.  On the other hand, I am clearly in one.  On one hand is knowing I need to take care of myself first otherwise I cannot take care of my children, on the other hand is making sure my children are safe and their needs are met.  Without an organized plan, it's just a bunch of daily decisions.  They may be appropriate for the immediate need, but do not serve a long term goal. 

I certainly understand FOG, but the O is tricky.  When we are married and have kids, there are obligations.  Sometimes those obligations conflict.  I rarely get more than 6 hours of sleep per day.  Last night was a night I thought I could catch up.  Instead, W came into the bedroom panicking about her blood pressure. It has recently been very high.  Stress and anxiety are probably the main culprits, and her panicking over the BP only makes it worse.  Yet she refused to simply lay down and relax.  Instead she had to read about it online, causing more worry, and when she could not sleep, watch the news rather than something calming.  And when she was talking with me about it, she accused me of not having the appropriate facial expression and flew into a rage.  The reality is, her BP was dangerously high.  Raging at me was making it worse.  An ambulance may have been an option, but considering the COVID load in the hospitals near us, there is a very likely chance they would have just sent her home and told her to call her Dr in the morning.   

What is my obligation here?  My feeling was to get her calm by whatever means possible.  That meant me sleeping in the other room for a few hours.  She woke me around 4am, told me she couldn't sleep.  At that point I basically took her phone away, changed the TV to something relaxing, and just took over all the duties for a few hours when the kids woke up. 

[khibomsis]

Max, I have recently been through this with my expwBPD. Is your wife on any medication for her high BP? One thing you should be aware of is that many of those have psychological side effects. Hydralazine, for instance, could be pretty much guaranteed to cause a maximum strength dysregulation for my expwBPD and thus paradoxically raise her BP after an hour or so. If your wife is taking any medication she should read the side effects and work with her Dr to make sure that anything she takes is not worsening the BPD.

I also often pondered whether it was the BPD that caused high BP or the other way round. I mean, to get anxious because your BP is high doesn't seem to make much sense, but given the heightened state of emotion in which BPD's exist, that is what happens.  Whichever came first, the chicken or the egg, the two seem co-morbid and indeed very dangerous if not controlled.  Nature, Formflier, imposed its own consequences. It has been a steep learning curve.

The good news is that many of the things you must do to control the BP also turn out to be excellent for controlling BPD. Diet (we found sugar and caffeine to be major triggers), regular exercise, mind control like chanting or meditation, are all things which also reduce dysregulation. Gemsforeyes recommends alpha waves and indeed it saved my sanity, and possibly expwBPD's life. There are free versions on Youtube, and I found even just sneakily playing this in the background when her anxiety started helped:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzMmJ-YD2BE  Even better if the pwBPD can be persuaded to focus on the sounds. It also really helped me untrigger which was good for both of us.

ExpwBPD had so many issues with medication that she now mainly controls the BP with herbal supplements. Aswaghanda, Sceletium, Chamomile, and CBD oil (if it is legal in your state) all really help. It takes a little trial and error to find the right combo, but the reward is that the same herbs ease dysregulations. Valerian and Passionflower for sleep. Melatonin can cause withdrawal symptoms the next morning so I do not recommend it for pwBPD.

Ambulances are dicey with BPD. On the one hand, should her BP go anywhere over 200/116 she needs to get medical care within 60 minutes or she may stroke out. On the other hand, google "white coat syndrome" and you will understand why we in the end made the decision to stay as far away from Drs and hospitals as possible. Not to mention CoVID.

All said and done I think your biggest problem right now is sleep deprivation. Prolonged sleep deprivation will deprive you of the capacity for rational thought. Not to mention that repeated sleep disturbance is classified as a form of domestic violence. Although towards the end I got so good at it I could talk expwBPD down without getting out of bed, still one has to set serious boundaries around this. Your wife is not a child. She needs to be able to recognize a dysregulation coming on and divert it at the source. That is what her DBT training is for. Her life should be enough of a stake to do this.    Indeed worrying herself into a state about her BP is counterproductive. We found that charts on the wall detailing how to recognize a panic attack and a list of things to do in order of priority  - breathe/meditate/sing/chant, herbal tea, CBD gummies  - really helped. It meant that when she started losing her mind she did not have to think about what to do. On that list should be "Let Max Sleep". Does your wife not have a family member or friend she can call at need, perhaps in another timezone?  Or a BPD online support group or 24 hour crisis line?

Do you have family that could take the kids for a day, or perhaps hire a babysitter? You need to check into a motel if possible, take a couple of melatonin and sleep until you wake up of yourself, without an alarm clock. I have often likened the state of parents with small children to that of combat fatigue, and we had twins in the family too. It really is parenthood in stereo Twice as nice but exhausting as f--k. Your family depends on you right now to be the sane adult. That starts with taking care of yourself.

Wishing you all the best,
Khib

[Notwendy]

Max the FOG is real and I would say all relationships have some degree of obligation, especially parenting.

I think the big problem with the O in FOG is that people with co-dependent tendencies tend to forget that the O also applies to them and their basic needs- sleep, food, rest, shelter, clothing. A parent of an infant knows that some sleep deprivation is going to be part of it- night feedings, or if a kid gets up at night scared or not feeling well. But in general, sleep deprivation is not a normal part of a relationship between adults, and even with children, the parent needs to get some sleep to function.

Yes, there are things people can do to manage BP and also BPD but this still considers something they need to do for themselves and we have no power to control what they do. The only thing we can control is ourselves and our choices. You have been in this place before with no sleep and not taking care of yourself, and you know it's not sustainable.

I get the difficulty as having a boundary with my BPD mother is emotionally exhausting as she is constantly pushing the boundaries. And when someone is physically exhausted it is much easier in the moment to just give in, just to get a moment's peace. I observed this and also found I did the same in other relationships, so much easier to give in to get a moment's peace- in the short run and so much more difficult to change this pattern when you have just reinforced again to the person that the way to get you to give in is to just push the boundary until you give up. Each time you give in, it becomes that much harder, but if you are sleep deprived, you will do just that to get your immediate sleep need met- because that need is crucial.

Although my parents stayed together, I am not against the other choice as well. Just pointing out that both decisions have their benefits and challenges and ultimately each person needs to make this choice themselves, whatever it is. Once we kids grew up, we would have understood if my parents got divorced. It was hard to watch the dynamics between them. We didn't want my dad to endure that. However, they did not divorce and while I used to see my mother as the problem and my father as the victim, and know it was difficult for him, I also see where co-dependency played a part in the dynamics. I also know he did the best he could with this situation and that somehow, he wanted to stay together, he really did care a lot about her. ( he is deceased now) But that was his choice. Others might make a different one.

The first thing I had to learn when working on co-dependency was that self care is key. It's OK to include myself in that "O"- obligation. You need to take care of yourself and at the very least get some sleep. If your wife can not allow you to sleep, then that could be a deal breaker to the two of you living together. Your kids need a dad and to be that dad, you need to have your basic needs met. To be able to stand up for them you need to first stand up for yourself and get your basic needs met.