Exit plan - keeping up pretense until then?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi. I've lurked on this board for months, but I made a new profile for privacy. Thanks to all who post helpful advice.

I'll try and keep it brief. Married, 2 kids, husband with BPD. Things have been slowly declining for a long time, but I finally woke up and realized what an unhealthy abusive relationship I was in roughly 1 year ago. Around 3-4 times last I seriously spoke about separating, either after a really bad argument or because he confronted me about my "true" feelings - so never on my terms or timing. Each time, he of course promised to change, to give me what I need, to rebuild, etc. Each time, predictably, things would improve for a bit before slowly sliding back into old, crazy-making patterns. His main traits are extreme jealousy, v insecure, way over attached, fear of abandonment. He's mentioned many times that the end of our marriage would be tantamount to death for him. Recently, he's started saying that he would just "disappear", which I assume to mean not being in our kids' lives. While he can veer into borderline abusive with the kids when extremely escalated, he is generally a good father. I hope that makes sense, given the context of this illness. He holds a job, he contributes to the household, etc. He just, unfortunately (?), make me effing crazy with the emotional manipulation, gaslighting, accusations and so on.

Anyway. I had made my mind up to leave after Christmas, not wanting to ruin it for the kids. He must've sensed something, because he confronted me Dec 22, and I just couldn't do it, again not wanting to ruin it for them. He, of course, promised the sun, moon and stars, like usual. Things were good briefly, but of course they started to decline again, so I started actually plotting my exit (time, date, method).

Then, it's like they have a 6th sense, because again TODAY, he confronts me AGAIN about whether I want to stay married. This is at 7am on a weekday before work & school - so, obviously, a terrible time and again not of my choosing. Ultimately, maybe I'm too weak or too nice, but I tell him again that I'm willing to 'try'.

But it's a lie. I'm done. I don't have hope. I'm still planning on going ahead. I feel terrible for lying and leading them on, but I also am learning that I just can't do it in person. And I'll have to keep pretending (giving kisses, saying I love you, making future plans) until the day. So I'm not really sure what I'm asking. In a "typical" relationship, I feel like doing this would be horrible, a**hole behavior, but here it's a form of self-proctection? Maybe I'm looking for validation. Both that it's "okay" to do this, and that I plan to leave a letter rather than speaking about it. Obviously, I'll eventually have to speak to him post-event, arrange finances, kids, etc, but I'm being a chicken about the actual "pulling the trigger".

[DefiantRaspberry]

Hi. I've lurked on this board for months, but I made a new profile for privacy. Thanks to all who post helpful advice.

I'll try and keep it brief. Married, 2 kids, husband with BPD. Things have been slowly declining for a long time, but I finally woke up and realized what an unhealthy abusive relationship I was in roughly 1 year ago. Around 3-4 times last I seriously spoke about separating, either after a really bad argument or because he confronted me about my "true" feelings - so never on my terms or timing. Each time, he of course promised to change, to give me what I need, to rebuild, etc. Each time, predictably, things would improve for a bit before slowly sliding back into old, crazy-making patterns. His main traits are extreme jealousy, v insecure, way over attached, fear of abandonment. He's mentioned many times that the end of our marriage would be tantamount to death for him. Recently, he's started saying that he would just "disappear", which I assume to mean not being in our kids' lives. While he can veer into borderline abusive with the kids when extremely escalated, he is generally a good father. I hope that makes sense, given the context of this illness. He holds a job, he contributes to the household, etc. He just, unfortunately (?), make me effing crazy with the emotional manipulation, gaslighting, accusations and so on.

Anyway. I had made my mind up to leave after Christmas, not wanting to ruin it for the kids. He must've sensed something, because he confronted me Dec 22, and I just couldn't do it, again not wanting to ruin it for them. He, of course, promised the sun, moon and stars, like usual. Things were good briefly, but of course they started to decline again, so I started actually plotting my exit (time, date, method).

Then, it's like they have a 6th sense, because again TODAY, he confronts me AGAIN about whether I want to stay married. This is at 7am on a weekday before work & school - so, obviously, a terrible time and again not of my choosing. Ultimately, maybe I'm too weak or too nice, but I tell him again that I'm willing to 'try'.

But it's a lie. I'm done. I don't have hope. I'm still planning on going ahead. I feel terrible for lying and leading them on, but I also am learning that I just can't do it in person. And I'll have to keep pretending (giving kisses, saying I love you, making future plans) until the day. So I'm not really sure what I'm asking. In a "typical" relationship, I feel like doing this would be horrible, a**hole behavior, but here it's a form of self-proctection? Maybe I'm looking for validation. Both that it's "okay" to do this, and that I plan to leave a letter rather than speaking about it. Obviously, I'll eventually have to speak to him post-event, arrange finances, kids, etc, but I'm being a chicken about the actual "pulling the trigger".

[Serenitywithin]

I just posted something similar to this with my Wife.

I plan to talk to her tonight about her getting some help, But  I am leaving whether she does or not. I have papers filed. I have 4 kids.

I thought the same thing that this is going to take her by surprise and I feel guilt about it. But I think I have to keep it away from her until she is served to keep the peace as long as possible.

Sorry your going through it as well. 

[DefiantRaspberry]

Thanks, Serenity. Good luck with that. It's been hard for me NOT to fall for the pleas of "well, I'll get help, just give me the chance". it's good to hear someone else feels similarly about the need to "keep the peace" until the moment of.

I'm figuring to separate first then worry about papers? I might be a chicken in wanting to ask for divorce by letter (taking the kids away for the weekend, asking him to move out), but I can't go so far as to spring it on them by serving them. The initial docs look pretty easy to start using documents online from the courthouse. The tricky stuff after serving is where I figure can think about mediator/lawyer/etc, just to save some pennies.

[CoherentMoose]

Then, it's like they have a 6th sense, because again TODAY, he confronts me AGAIN about whether I want to stay married.

You are not alone.  My fiancé had to deal with this for almost a year while she worked her plan for a surprise exit that included arranging for a place to live and all the other things necessary to land in a safe place with children.   It was very emotionally painful for her, but she made it through.  She knew she could not have survived and would have been emotionally beaten down if he knew the truth of her plans.  He was suspicious and constantly asked her for validation of of her love.  After listening to what she went through, frankly, I'm surprised she actually was able to pull it off.  She knew right from the start a surprise exit was her only way out.  Good luck.  CoMo

[DefiantRaspberry]

He was suspicious and constantly asked her for validation of of her love.

I feel this. I don't know, but faking it and pretending is one thing and something I'm used to, but directly lying feels much harder. The FOG is everywhere. I guess this is where we have to do our own work to be okay with the gray moral areas that crop up when seizing our lives back.

[formflier]

So, when are you moving out?

or

Is that dependent on what he may or may not say or do?

Best,

FF

[DefiantRaspberry]

So, when are you moving out?

or

Is that dependent on what he may or may not say or do?

The plan is to ask him to leave. Co-habitation is not an option. I WFH and he does not, so me being primary caregiver to kids is a natural path, with working out equitable and fair custody in the long term (assuming he doesn't just "disappear" as threatened).

[lostinvt]

I am a situation that is very very similar and am struggling with the same.  Trying to bridge the gap between being honest about the severity of things and my feelings and not blaming or diagnosing, and not being ready.  It's awful.  And my wife picks up on all that... my careful wording, and then she tries to pull it out of me.. "Why can't you just say X" "Your words hurt me so much".  I have spent 10 hours in a day 'talking' about it, trying to stay calm and collected, explain what I could.  It is so exhausting I just become numb and can't even think straight for a day.

I have "had" to say that I'm staying multiple times.  I would say that "I'm staying now", "I'm trying to make it work" and she just drives into me for hours why I need to qualify it with "now" and "trying".  To the point I give in.  I didn't a few days ago and she didn't eat for a day and was a nightmare to just be  in the same room as her sulking, rageful presence, and I couldn't let it continue for our daughter's sake. I say that but it was probably for me just as much if not more so.

On top of it all, I know I need to help myself for my own issues, but doing so is in direct conflict with keeping the peace, and getting her help.  I don't think either of us can make progress in our own health while together, but I'm the only one to realize that, and probably will for the foreseeable future.

The idea of a surprise exit is tormenting me.  Although I don't know that it could be anything but, especially being in this hole I've dug for myself.

I have thought about reading a letter to her and then giving it to her so it's clear and things could not be twisted after the fact.  I would prefer to ask her to leave.  Partly to keep my daughter's  environment consistent, and partly to encourage her to not be alone.  She has no close friends or family in the area to look over her, be there for her and I honestly worry about her safety being left by everyone she has left and being utterly alone.

I can empathize with the struggle of how to go about it.  I think most would say to do what is best for the health and safety of your kids.  If it's leaving a letter, then that's what it is.  I would bet your husband is unlikely to see it rationally or respond much differently regardless of how it's done.  The fact that it is done at all will likely far outweigh the methods in his mind.  I would also expect that regardless of how it's done, he'll bring it up as wrong either way.

[DefiantRaspberry]

I have "had" to say that I'm staying multiple times.  I would say that "I'm staying now", "I'm trying to make it work" and she just drives into me for hours why I need to qualify it with "now" and "trying".  To the point I give in.  I didn't a few days ago and she didn't eat for a day and was a nightmare to just be  in the same room as her sulking, rageful presence, and I couldn't let it continue for our daughter's sake. I say that but it was probably for me just as much if not more so.

I have thought about reading a letter to her and then giving it to her so it's clear and things could not be twisted after the fact.  I would prefer to ask her to leave.  Partly to keep my daughter's  environment consistent, and partly to encourage her to not be alone.  She has no close friends or family in the area to look over her, be there for her and I honestly worry about her safety being left by everyone she has left and being utterly alone.

I can empathize with the struggle of how to go about it.  I think most would say to do what is best for the health and safety of your kids.  If it's leaving a letter, then that's what it is.  I would bet your husband is unlikely to see it rationally or respond much differently regardless of how it's done.  The fact that it is done at all will likely far outweigh the methods in his mind.  I would also expect that regardless of how it's done, he'll bring it up as wrong either way.

THANK YOU. I'm sorry you're going through this, but it's good to hear others are going through similar. So much of your post resonated with me - "hole we've dug ourselves" - SO TRUE.

[ForeverDad]

Interesting dilemma... we're trying to be so fair and ethical in everything we do but... the other spouse doesn't do that and manipulates the situations and obligations and guilting.  How dare we behave as they do.

FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt

[maxsterling]

This thread caught my eye.

Right now I have no current plan of leaving, but I have thought about how it would have to happen many times.  My thought process is this:

1)  I would not do this without a lawyer.  I would find a way to cover costs, even if it meant borrowing from family or selling something dear to me.  My W is too unstable. 
2) I would find a lawyer/firm who has experience with exactly this situation of a mentally unstable spouse who may try anything.
3) I would have everything planned out and ready.  New place to live for one of you, some things already packed, money stashed away, and support network of family or friends.  In my case, I would consider telling family of W that this was coming if I felt they could be supportive.  I would also contact W's therapist in advance. 
4) I would keep up the "lie" to W and kids as much as I could.  I probably would not go so far as to talk about plans for the future, etc, but I would not give appearances that I am on my way out.  The reason is that not doing so could be dangerous, and make preparation impossible.   

The reality is you have to do what is best and safest for both you and your kids. 

[DefiantRaspberry]

The reality is you have to do what is best and safest for both you and your kids. 

This is true. We all live in unique situations with unique people (though with similarities due to mutual illness).

FD, it's a point, but I would never want to start to sacrifice core elements of my character like that, because then they really have won. I understand your point, though, and it's an interesting thought.

[Popsie]

Im new here.  Your story is almost identical to mine.  I am taking time to plan the "safest" exit possible for me and my kids but he is confronting me about being distant all the time and the tension and chaos is palpable at all times in our house and i feel so horrible for my kids for raising them in this toxic environment.  It is so horrible and I just want to do the right thing for them so they can live a healthy life and not be faced with mental illness like anxiety or depression or my worst fear, BPD.

I feel so traumatized by his past anger and accusations and jealousy and mind games that I feel anxious around him all the time so I avoid him and avoid talking to him.  I cant even fake the "i love yous" and kisses or cuddles anymore and so he gets more hurt and angry and treats me so poorly.  but maybe i should force myself to to stop the anger?  I tell him i feel scared and anxious all the time and he literally mocks me.  I am in disbelief that I married someone that i have been with for 15 years that actually mocks me when I tell them I feel scared.  how did i end up in this situation?   I fantasize about what life with someone without BPD would look like.  Imagine someone accepting and validating your thoughts and opinions instead of being threatened by them!  it would feel so good.  I watch other close non BPD couples function so smoothly and lovingly and feel this deep longing for what I've always wanted, what i thought I was committing to.  I am in deep mourning over realizing what my life has actually turned out to be.

[DefiantRaspberry]

Im new here.  Your story is almost identical to mine.  I am taking time to plan the "safest" exit possible for me and my kids but he is confronting me about being distant all the time and the tension and chaos is palpable at all times in our house and i feel so horrible for my kids for raising them in this toxic environment. 

That must be hard to go through. Do you have a plan? Do you think he'd leave if you asked (either in-person or via note)? Stay safe.

[Popsie]

We actually separated this past summer and it was literal hell.  I thought i asked for the separation in the most respectful and peaceful way possible:  I had a friend take the kids and I made dinner for my husband and told him that we need to take a break because the fighting is so hurtful for the kids.  He didn't take it well but we didn't get into a fight, he was just dejected which was understandable, although i was a little concerned that he wasn't able to see where i was coming from about putting the kids first (this was before i knew about BPD.)  I told him i wanted to tell the kids together the next night and he was upset at the idea but seemed to have heard me.  The next night when we sat down over dinner and I gently tried to tell the kids, they started crying and he absolutely LOST it and made it so much worse and more traumatizing.  Started shouting at me: "how can you do this to us?  how can you be doing this?"  the kids were terrified and I ran down to the garage hoping that removing myself would de-escalate the situation and so I could call my brother to come over and help.  My husband came down to the garage and started yelling at me again and saw i was on the phone and then lost it even more when he discovered i had called my brother.  my 5 year old daughter was standing there watching him berate me and he even called me an effing C-word several times in front of her.  Truly one of the most devastating moments of my life.  She was begging him to stop and so was I.  I scooped her up and took her into another room and closed the door just holding her.  I have never seen my kids cry like that and carry so much guilt for putting them through it.  He continued to freak out but luckily my brother came through the door and took him outside for a long walk to calm him down.  Thank god my brother got there so quickly.  Long story short is it didn't go well and I felt like i was the one who had to leave to deescalate things but I really didn't feel ok leaving my kids with him that night but felt i had no choice.  I literally didn't sleep a wink that night because I was so afraid for them and had such regret leaving.  We stayed separated for 2 months sharing the kids (2 nights on 2 nights off) and there were many more episodes of him freaking out at me.  It was extremely difficult.  It took him about 2 weeks to finally get to the "im sorry" phase of the cycle.  He cried and apologized and begged for me to get back together.  I was traumatized and we stayed separated for another 6 weeks.  during that time was when I started to learn about BPD.  Figuring out what he might have and that I wasn't alone gave me new hope.  He was going to therapy and I took a risk and told him what I had learned.  He took it surprisingly well.  We even bonded over it.  He seemed so open at the time and honestly like he wanted to change.  The kids were so miserable and I was so miserable that I finally caved in and got back together with him.

And now 6 months later he has forgotten all those promises he made.  And again the kids are miserable because of all the anger.  So now I have to plan an exit and this time i'm going to do my homework now that I know he likely has BPD.  I hadn't thought of leaving a note but I will consider that option. I do find when i write to him it is much easier to express myself because he doesn't have the opportunity to derail me.

I have a lot of planning to do and i feel very scared and just want to protect my kids from what happened last time.  I think its going to take me months to get this plan together.  If anyone has any suggestions please share.  Thanks for reading.

[siochain]

Popsie I definitely understand what you mean when you say leaving a note might be better because then he can't derail you.

I'm considering doing the same, but sometimes I'm afraid that would set her off even more if she felt like I got off too easy and she didn't get to be heard.

At the same time, nothing's going to come across well, and they CAN'T just take things well or really understand us, so what's the difference how they take it? We need to just do things for ourselves in the safest way.

It's been so hard, sometimes I wonder "can ending it really be that easy?".

Of course, if we do it that way, it will only give them more ammunition, complaining to family "they ended our marriage with a text/note. Didn't even have the decency to do it in person", but again, who cares. They're never going to see things clearly even if we stayed and did it their way.

It sounds like your brother is very supportive and also good at taking charge of the situation if he was able to get your H to go for a walk during all of that. Do you think he could be there to moderate doing it in person and keep it from escalating?

If I had a person like that, I'd do it that way, but I have no family here.

[DefiantRaspberry]

Oh Popsie, I'm so sorry you went through that, and that's everything i fear from mine. I know my H would be exactly the same, which is why cohabitating even for a few days while looking for an apartment, or whatever, would never work. Thankfully your brother helped you there. I have a sister nearby that would do the same (and my BIL has taken H for similar walks like yours!), but I hope it never comes to that.

I'm sorry too that he returned to old habits. That's happened to me, exactly. After every occasion where I've either been close or actually wanted to separate, he always promises reform and gives it a genuine effort for a couple weeks (usually trying to pull on my guilt that it's something spiritual, which like, how am I supposed to argue with God?) before of course the BPD behaviors creep back in. It's that cycle of intermittent reinforcement we all know so well.

Anyway, all that is why I want to leave a letter. Some outsiders might see it as cowardly, but I view it as one small way to take control AND protect the kids. A letter they can't argue with. It's a firm boundary that takes a more conscious effort to cross than just arguing their corner. I mean, if someone I loved tried to separate, I'd probably be upset and defensive and make promises too (the first time, anyway)! H and I have a history.of writing things out, so it's not totally unprecedented.

[Popsie]

Siochain,

That is a very good suggestion to ask my bother for help.  Thank you for suggesting that.  Im sorry you don't have family to support you through what you are going through.  To be honest, I mostly rely on friends because my brother is having his first kid in a month so I feel guilty for dragging him into this mess when he already has  a lot going on.  I can really empathize with you not having family to help support you because for so long I didn't either until my brother moved back home.  Do you have close friends you can lean on?

And I agree with everything you said about leaving a note.  The optics may not be good to an outsider but that's the least of my concerns.  He will be angry too but he will be angry no matter how I do it.  My first priority is to the kids and trying not to traumatize them again. 

Thanks for your time in replying. very much appreciate your support.

[Popsie]

defiantraspberry,

Thanks so much for your kind words and time in writing me back.
 Its good that you already know to expect that type of behaviour from your H if you leave which was why i thought it might be helpful to share that story.  It sounds like you have come up with a good plan that will work for you and your kids.

Its so interesting how so many of the same situations come up for so many people who post, like how you also had to lean on your sister and BIL to help in difficult situations.  It is surreal to need to ask for that kind of support from my loved ones and friends but it is truly what I need to do to get through this.

Another concern I have about leaving with a note is if I take the kids and go somewhere without telling him before hand he will absolutely freak out and I also worry about the legal implications of that.  I actually don't want to break his trust with regards to the kids.  nor do i want him to feel threatened that I might take them away.  He is a lawyer which means i really have to be careful here.
 I think if i can somehow come up with an excuse to leave with the kids that he ok's before hand will mean a smoother exit.  And in a more practical sense, he will be expecting me to leave on a trip with them so it wont be difficult to pack bags and prepare etc.  Like maybe I need to book a mommy/kid trip with my friends that he is aware of in advance and then leave the note when we leave?  Is this an issue in your situation too?  or can you just take the kids and leave?

Im sorry you've had similar experiences and are going through what sounds pretty much like the same situation.  the spiritual excuse you mentioned reminds me of some of my H's more creative excuses over the past year... sigh...  its exhausting.  And your letter game plan isn't cowardly, you are so brave for taking control of your life again.

[DefiantRaspberry]

Another concern I have about leaving with a note is if I take the kids and go somewhere without telling him before hand he will absolutely freak out and I also worry about the legal implications of that.  I actually don't want to break his trust with regards to the kids.  nor do i want him to feel threatened that I might take them away.  He is a lawyer which means i really have to be careful here.
 I think if i can somehow come up with an excuse to leave with the kids that he ok's before hand will mean a smoother exit.  And in a more practical sense, he will be expecting me to leave on a trip with them so it wont be difficult to pack bags and prepare etc.  Like maybe I need to book a mommy/kid trip with my friends that he is aware of in advance and then leave the note when we leave?  Is this an issue in your situation too?  or can you just take the kids and leave?

Absolutely not a legal expert, but I believe there's nothing wrong as long you don't leave the state and don't block access for a long period of time without an order. Something like a weekend away I don't think would constitute any legal violation. you could even say in your letter, "I am not kidnapping the kids. I am not blocking access. We are taking a few days to let a difficult situation calm down so they are not witness to any upsetting scenarios. I have blocked all contact between us for a few days until I feel comfortable, and at that point we can come to an equitable agreement about temporary custody." - that's my plan, to write something similar just to cover the bases. Then, the ball is in HIS court, because if he acts inappropriately and dangerous, you can get a temporary restraining order.

How you get out of the house is of course going to depend on circumstances. If he's at work, you can just go. Very very worst case scenario is pre-pack a small bag for you all, hide it, then when he pops out to the store or something, go then? If you've been on trips before and that's something that he's comfortable with, that could totally work too (just don't go to the place you've told him...).

[Popsie]

Thanks for this.  Lots to think about.  I think its the years of my words and actions being used against me that make me fear that if I leave with the kids without telling him in advance he will do the same to me in the future and I would be terrified if he did.  I worry it will open the door to him doing things of this nature, using the kids as pawns to torture me.  I think in my situation I have to plan it as a trip where he knows the kids are going away with me in advance because this is what I would expect from him.  But I realize every BP relationship is different and your H might not be like mine and wont seek revenge by taking the kids without asking first. 

I also feel like the less sneaky i have to be, the less anxious i will feel.  My anxiety prevents me from thinking straight and makes decision making very challenging so my goal is to keep my anxiety  as low as possible so i can make good decisions and feel strong.

I was thinking about your original question about keeping up the pretence until you leave.  One thing i find so difficult is that when he doesn't get physical intimacy from me he starts to act out and get angry but I just can't bring myself to be intimate with him after he has treated me so badly and broken my  trust.  Is this an issue for you too or are you still able to be physically affectionate?  Hope you dont mind me asking and I understand if its not something you want to write about.

Very much appreciate your reply thank you.

[DefiantRaspberry]

Thanks for this.  Lots to think about.  I think its the years of my words and actions being used against me that make me fear that if I leave with the kids without telling him in advance he will do the same to me in the future and I would be terrified if he did.  I worry it will open the door to him doing things of this nature, using the kids as pawns to torture me.  I think in my situation I have to plan it as a trip where he knows the kids are going away with me in advance because this is what I would expect from him.  But I realize every BP relationship is different and your H might not be like mine and wont seek revenge by taking the kids without asking first. 

I think we know our spouses the best and have to do what works for our very individual situations! Mine is a generally good father but has issues coping with them on his own but at least knows this so I cannot fathom a scenario where he'd voluntarily take them away because he does love & care for their ultimate best interests. I don't think I'm being naive since had known him for 13+ yrs. Sad to say, the most revenge or harm he would cause would be a suicide attempt TBH.

I was thinking about your original question about keeping up the pretence until you leave.  One thing i find so difficult is that when he doesn't get physical intimacy from me he starts to act out and get angry but I just can't bring myself to be intimate with him after he has treated me so badly and broken my  trust.  Is this an issue for you too or are you still able to be physically affectionate?  Hope you dont mind me asking and I understand if its not something you want to write about.

boundaries around sex are a big issue between us. I tend to give in and fake it because I cannot be bothered with the fallout. I hate it and hate myself, but sometimes we just do these things. and not just sex but all sorts of physical intimacy (kissing, cuddling) because he's super touchy-feely and I am not. I mean, obviously all the history and trauma and stuff piles up and makes you not want to be physically close to this person, but they need it so much to feel validated & wanted, so it's a huge disconnect. it's one of the things between that is massively crazy-making to me and a big contributor to why I can't see going on like this, having to do this 3, 5, 10 years down the road.

[siochain]

Defiant Raspberry
I fully understand what you're talking about. I'm in the exact same situation. I don't want to have sex at all, and she complains and pushes for it. She needs to hold hands in the car, gets upset if I don't kiss her as soon as I come home, always wants to touch and be affectionate, and won't understand that she's terrified me when she had her outbursts and it's just an effort to be in her company and try to be pleasant.

She keeps bringing up sex, knowing I'm not even comfortable in the marriage at all. They don't even seem to care what we're experiencing. They just want what they want when they want, and think we're all robots.

Also, knowing that I'm considering divorce in my mind,I don't want to lead her on by having sex. I mean, what if I give in and have sex, and then a day later is when I finally snap inside and say to myself "this is it. I'm ready to leave". Won't that seem even crazier to her, thinking "but we just had sex yesterday. How can he say he wants to leave?"

She always says it will draw us closer, but I experience no such thing.

I'm mentioning all of this to say your experience is understood and shared by many of us. We hear you.

[Popsie]

Defiant Raspberry and siochain,

thank you both for your very candid replies.  such a personal and difficult subject.  I too have faked it for years. The only way I could was to detach emotionally and basically keep it strangely impersonal.  Don't know how else to describe it.  I guess i just pretended like he was a stranger.  When my ability to do this disappeared at the beginning of last month (December was a tough one) I knew I was in deep trouble because, like you both said, he needs it for validation in an extreme way. 
(hope im doing the quote thing properly below. im new!)

She keeps bringing up sex, knowing I'm not even comfortable in the marriage at all. They don't even seem to care what we're experiencing. They just want what they want when they want, and think we're all robots.

You are so right, this is sadly so true.  It never ceases to amaze me how little he cares about how i'm feeling.  I have often said over the years before i knew he was likely BPD, "it's like he wants me to be a Stepford wife: cook, clean, have sex and never complain or express a preference."  It was so confusing because he's such a liberal politically and I always thought he would be a 50/50 partner when it came to raising kids and supporting my career.  I think that's the part for me that stings the most, the lack of consideration about how I feel.  My friends describe me as an "empath" so how did I end up with the polar opposite for a partner? what did i do wrong?  how can i avoid making the same mistake?

I also see your concern that if you sleep with them like everything is fine and then one day/ week just pull the plug it will be more confusing for them.  In the case with my H, he would take it as evidence and confirmation that I am not trustworthy (a regular accusation I have to contend with.)  He would be like "see!  i always knew you were a liar!"  But I totally don't judge anyone who does continue to have sex because its the only way to keep the peace and protect yourself and/or children.  ugh its so hard.

Defiant Raspberry- so true that we know our spouses best and I really appreciate being able to compare notes with you because you helped me to really think about these things in more detail.  I was just figuring it out as I typed so thank you for this.  Glad to hear you won't get resistance when you take the kids.  That is a major relief.  Tho i of course understand the weight of fearing a suicide attempt must feel so heavy.  Is he close with any friends or siblings that know about his suicidal thoughts?  could they help support him when you leave the note?

[siochain]

I think that whatever happens, we can make it worse in our minds with all of the what if's, and gathering the nerve. Once we're on the other side, it will be a relief.
I know how difficult it is to even enjoy a part of the day with this huge, dark cloud lingering. I just want it to be behind me already.
It's also so difficult to really internalize what we know intellectually about their disorder. No matter how much we read, it's still such an alien concept that they really are incapable of empathy, let alone inferring anything or reading between the lines. All they know is what they feel, and they feel A LOT. They can't separate from it and put themselves in our shoes, or say "wow I'm really hurting this person. Look at him/her. Let me either stop or let them go or even give them the choice".
No. All they seem to know is "I'm going to do exactly what I want or need and you're going to not only stay but like it too, because I WILL be analyzing your every gesture, facial expression, tone of voice for any sign you might abandon me, and even then, my grievances will be limitless".

[Popsie]

siochain,

All they know is what they feel, and they feel A LOT. They can't separate from it and put themselves in our shoes, or say "wow I'm really hurting this person. Look at him/her. Let me either stop or let them go or even give them the choice".

well said.  that's exactly it.  and like you said it is so difficult to enjoy the everyday with this dark cloud.  I find it so hard to even muster the energy to have fun with my kids.  I have lost my spark completely.
I have read in some books that BPDs are capable of empathy if they work at it but if this theory is true, the question is: do I have the stamina and desire to stay until that happens?  My conclusion is that i just don't.  Life is too short to choose to stay.  And above all, what i want the most is for my my kids to know what a calm and loving home feels like.

[lostinvt]

One thing that I read that I have been using is that emotionally, someone with BPD has been stunted developmentally.  So emotionally they are a young child.  They never developed how to give empathy or really love, and just stuck doing what they have seen as 'love' or 'empathy'.  They don't know how to deal with emotions or even identify them.  So when they feel something, it can only be from an external source... being YOU.  And that's projection.
In my situation, for example, we were cleaning a room, and our daughter needed something, so I kindly said, I'll be right back and I'll take care of that for you.  I knew at that time it was going to be an issue.  Later she comes out, already having done the thing and in kind of a pissy mood.  I stayed calm and pleasant, continued to engage her, etc... About 3 hours later she says to me "Did I do something wrong?", and proceeds to tell me that I have been giving off vibes that I was upset with her.
Without knowing what I know now, it would have pissed me off, confused me, frustrated me, etc... But with some of these perspectives, it makes it a little easier to get by until a decision or move is made.  It's certainly NO way to live, but can help in the short term.
Along with this though comes the risk of starting to de-humanize them.  I hate thinking of her in that way.  I want to treat my partner as an equal, but I have to either submit or take control in a way.

I also struggle with my own issues.  There seems to be a lot of information on codependents and BPDs being a natural magnet so to speak.  Kind of like the codependent (me) is addicted to giving and being as nice/flexible/forgiving/understanding as possible, and the BPD is addicted to taking, and manipulating to get.  Even if I was 100% strong it would be a very difficult journey to stay with my wife for years during recovery IF that even happens.  Add in my own struggles and it's a recipe for disaster, which is just what we have.  You wouldn't think an alcoholic could make progress even with all the determination in the world if they lived in a liquor store.  It just wouldn't be fair.

[ForeverDad]

I mistakenly replied to post here by siochain.  Sorry.  But I'll leave it here since the principle is valid: you don't add to the number of children, and thereby adding even more complications, as you're winding down the relationship.

She keeps bringing up sex, knowing I'm not even comfortable in the marriage at all. They don't even seem to care what we're experiencing...  Also, knowing that I'm considering divorce in my mind, I don't want to lead her on by having sex.

 You've been married about a year, have no children together, she wants intimacy and you're pondering leaving.  All I can say is that, whatever happens or not, you ensure you don't father a child on your way out.

As it is now, if/when the marriage and relationship ends, you both can walk away with no need to keep in contact.

However, once there's children, you have two decades of parenting ahead of you.  And though she may promise she's on birth control of some sort, you can never be sure.  You can't trust what she may or may not do to keep you with her.  That's how high the stakes are.

[DefiantRaspberry]

You wouldn't think an alcoholic could make progress even with all the determination in the world if they lived in a liquor store.  It just wouldn't be fair.

It's funny, my H ended a short course of therapy last year and I always thought it was due to COVID (it was around March, right when things were escalating). He told me, much later, that it was actually because he started to not like the therapist because they told him that his relationship with me wasn't healthy, it was extremely triggering to almost every single issue he needed to work on and they recommended getting out of the relationship (or at least taking a long separation while working intensely on issues). Of course, H *HATED* this as it goes against every severely-attached-to-me bone in his body. The liquor store analogy is a good one, yet here we are, he still insisting he can "work on us".

Kind of like the codependent (me) is addicted to giving and being as nice/flexible/forgiving/understanding as possible, and the BPD is addicted to taking, and manipulating to get.

Oof, combine this with very non-confrontational and you have my personal recipe for disaster.

well said.  that's exactly it.  and like you said it is so difficult to enjoy the everyday with this dark cloud.  I find it so hard to even muster the energy to have fun with my kids.  I have lost my spark completely.
I have read in some books that BPDs are capable of empathy if they work at it but if this theory is true, the question is: do I have the stamina and desire to stay until that happens?

This really is a major thing I grapple with. I have come to realize I no longer have the stamina & desire to see if it can happen or not, but that's a hard thing to feel guilty about - the what ifs - which then makes me feel sad even when he's having good days/weeks.

[Popsie]

This really is a major thing I grapple with. I have come to realize I no longer have the stamina & desire to see if it can happen or not, but that's a hard thing to feel guilty about - the what ifs - which then makes me feel sad even when he's having good days/weeks.

I hear you.  I feel intense guilt and sadness for him and for the kids when he is having a good day or we all go skiing together or something like that.  It is gut wrenching.

The co-dependent thoughts are very interesting and something i've never considered.  I have to read up about that and see if I fit the traits.  I am often described as an "empath", "kind", "people pleaser" so I guessing I might be...  eek...  anyone have any good sources to learn more?

One thing that I read that I have been using is that emotionally, someone with BPD has been stunted developmentally.  So emotionally they are a young child.  They never developed how to give empathy or really love, and just stuck doing what they have seen as 'love' or 'empathy'.  They don't know how to deal with emotions or even identify them.  So when they feel something, it can only be from an external source... being YOU.  And that's projection.

I really do believe this. Once our therapist explained this to me it really made sense.  The days seem to be much smoother when I think of him as a child but of course I cannot be patronizing.  I just don't share my thoughts and feelings and say encouraging things to him (even for taking out the garbage or doing the dishes.)  Does make things smoother on a day to day basis but sure isn't what I thought I was signing up for 10 years ago when I said "i do."  Also, it means not having an emotionally intimate or sophisticated relationship with your spouse and that for me is so unsatisfying.   Not to mention treating your spouse like you would treat a child is a real buzz kill romantically.  But I do agree with what you point out.  It is best to keep this perspective in mind and it does make the everyday smoother.