Can you forgive?

[Sunflower45]

I’ve been thinking and reading a lot about forgiveness, how it is a gift you give yourself, and so on. I have come quite far in accepting What Is - that my BPD mother will never change, that there is nothing I can do to have the kind of relationship I would like, that she did horrible things to me that I never deserved, etc. But I can’t forgive her. I don’t hate her anymore. Sometimes I feel disgust, sometimes even compassion. But I don’t love her. I don’t feel stuck with anger or hurt, but I feel upset when I think back to a few particularly egregious memories of my childhood. I wonder if this is the best I will ever be able to do.

How do you understand forgiveness? Have you been able to forgive your BPD relative?

[tvda]

Hi Sunflower45.

My two cents worth: there is lot of 'politically correct' and religious or spiritual thinking around forgiveness, how you can not move on and let go before you forgive.

Please be aware that in trauma therapy there is a growing movement (with data to back it up) that forgiving can sometimes do more harm than good, because it perpetuates a victom/agressor reversal of roles - forgiving is often seen biting victims in the *ss later on in therapy.

My personal opinion, and sort of backed up by evolution in therapy is:
- firstly, of course this is a personal matter. No one should tell you what to do
- you do not need to forgive to let go, and in fact it can be harmful to some
- in order to be forgiven, the agressors need to: ask for forgiveness, profoundly apologise and own up to their errors, and try to rectify the situation.

In the case of my HPD ex, I have not forgiven her for certain things she did to my parents, because in spite of her sob-stories and wallowing in self-pity and guilt, she has not done a single thing to apologise or rectify her actions, even though this was not hard to do.

And believe me: I did not have any trouble moving on, letting go and getting a good night's sleep.

But once again, to each his own. Just be aware that the "you need to forgive before you can be able to move on" is a cliché not based on any strong foundation.

[Sunflower45]

Thank you, tvda - your response is really reassuring. I’ve seen just a few online articles that have made this point, and it makes a lot of sense to me. I hope this view continues to gain momentum.

My mother has never apologized or tried to make amends, and I actually can’t imagine what amends would even be enough. I have always struggled with the idea of forgiving when the other party feels no remorse and continues their damaging behavior.

[tvda]

In my view you need to earn forgiveness. If not, forgiving a person further skews the dynamic.

And trust me, once again: forgiving is not a prerequisite for moving on.

[livednlearned]

I’ve been thinking and reading a lot about forgiveness, how it is a gift you give yourself, and so on.

I often wonder if forgiveness is a euphemism (or hope) for feeling safe and secure? I'm curious about the feeling that people think might be attached to forgiveness?

Especially if your childhood felt unsafe and if there was trauma, which is often the case for many of us here.

I have worked through different levels of what I guess is forgiveness with different people in the family. Over the years I've learned how to keep myself safe which was a struggle and involved a lot of trial and error, therapy, learning, testing, and some periods of estrangement intermixed with low contact.

The safer I felt with myself, down to trusting the phrases I could use in tricky situations, or setting up encounters with maximum boundaries, the less I focused on forgiveness. It almost feels like forgiveness was this thing I was supposed to focus on at the expense of creating safety, although no one said it quite like that. I just couldn't figure out a way to work on that stuff until I had these other skills or perspectives in place, if that makes sense.

If my cup is full (in all the ways I've had to learn to do that), then I can do more things with the disordered people in my life.

I finally found a wonderful person to share my life with (after marrying a man with BPD and whatnot) and it's probably no surprise that I feel safe enough to engage my family. He has BPD family members so the validation is high, and he is less haunted by guilt so I can see him model things that are helpful for me.

To find someone safe, I had to know how that felt first.

I don't know many people who experience the closure that forgiveness seems to suggest when there is BPD abuse involved. Seems like we have to find that feeling in other ways that we can internalize.

[Methuen]

Hi Sunflower
My hunch about "forgiveness" is that it is a really broad term, and when one person suggests "forgiveness" is a gift you give yourself, freeing...etc...it can having different meaning and feel differently to different people.  

I "think" I've forgiven my mom, but if I've truly forgiven her, does that mean I shouldn't feel annoyed, agitated, frustrated, disappointed by the things she says to me, and by her behavior?  If that is what forgiveness means, I would struggle with that definition, because we are all human and have feelings, and lets face it, the abuse, the lack of awareness, the lack of gratitude, the bad behavior doesn't stop coming because we "forgive".

In my case, I have accepted my mom for who she is.  I acknowledge that the traumatic family history was the reason she developed her distorted thinking and coping skills which led to the PD.   I am mom's primary caregiver (only child, she is 85, lives independently, frail, needy cognitively/physically/emotionally, demanding of me, and uBPD).  For me, accepting the situation (which it sounds like you also have), acknowledging it, and learning new skills to manage the BPD behaviors have helped me more than I can say.  Since I have so much contact with her, and there is always a crisis, the triggers never go away although I have learned to manage my reaction a lot better (most of the time). For example, this morning she said something which in the past would have triggered quite an intense reaction in me.  Today I still had a reaction, but I would estimate it was maybe 10% of what it used to be in the past. I am able to move on.  I would like to think that my progress is at least in part because I have forgiven my mom, but for me forgiveness and acceptance are very close cousins.  Forgiveness to me doesn't mean I accept mom's bad behavior, instead it means I accept and acknowledge her, and I take it upon myself to be the one that manages how I react to her.  While I still love her, it's a complicated kind of love.  It's cautious because I can never trust her.  Too much history, and she will never change.

I do not believe that forgiveness should feel like an obligation, because then it isn't given freely. Since all of us come from a different situation and all our situations are complicated, I think forgiveness can look different to different people.  Experts would probably disagree.

From livednlearned: "If my cup is full (in all the ways I've had to learn to do that), then I can do more things with the disordered people in my life."  This really spoke to me.  In the last 18 months, I have come to learn and live by this.  There are many ways I try to fill up my cup, and one of them is through self care (which my mother brainwashed me to believe was selfish).  When my cup is empty, and my mom is dysregulating, I really have to enforce my boundaries, and be LC or NC.  Does this mean I haven't forgiven her?  Not to me.  It just means I have to look after my own safety.  When a BPD is in our life, it often means we must navigate our way between their crises.  

I think what I'm trying to say is that for me, forgiveness isn't simple.  It's not the be all - end all, to the problems that come with a BPD person.  It's helped, a lot.  But I still have feelings.  I've just learned to manage them better.  Maybe some would argue I haven't truly forgiven.  But I think I have.  

Great topic.

[SepiaScarf]

If my cup is full (in all the ways I've had to learn to do that), then I can do more things with the disordered people in my life.

-livednlearned
I think this might go down as one of my all-time favorite quotes ! I just love it for so many reasons.

I also love this thread

Have I forgiven my Ubpd Mom, mmm I don't know that I would call it that. Do I have more compassion for the things that she has been through, yes. Do I understand better how her life events led her to be a disordered person, yes. Do I have some incredible tools I can use to deal with her, Yes. I think for me Forgiving her meant taking myself out of the Victim role and no longer letter her define me. As the victim of her abuse, I was more depressed, anxious, and had a poor outlook on life. Everything just felt worse. When I no longer let her define me, and I stripped down all things she said I was, I could see who I am. I think that is what has led me to Forgive her because I don't have to be her, I don't have to agree with the things she says or does. I can be my own person with my own feelings, beliefs, and experiences. A person with compassion for other people, even the disordered ones in my life.

So I guess for me forgiveness looks like compassion.

[tvda]

SepiaScarf, interesting to read your words. I have been working on moving out of my rescuer role for the past week. It's too early to tell if that's the cause, but I have been feeling more free, more relieved and carefree for a couple of days. More detached in a sense.

I am in more of 'go with the flow' vibe, and I have to say, it's refreshing. I prefer this infinitely to my panicky 'I need to rescue her' mode. It's up to her what happens, and I'm just going to play along and see where she takes things. And if she takes things out of 'us' I'm just going to accept that...

[zachira]

It is hard for me to forgive right now because my life is so affected by all the unresolved legal issues along with my sister with NPD getting her large army of enablers to regularly gaslight me. When I truly no longer have to have any contact with my disordered siblings and their enablers, and when I feel I truly have a fulfilling life filled with wonderful friends and activities, then I don't think I will really be as affected by being one of the immediate and extended family scapegoats as I am now. I will always have moments of sorrow about being abused by my family members and their enablers, yet the better my life is going, the less I will be affected. I don't think moving on is really about forgiveness; it is more about being so happy with my life, that I just don't think that much any more about the family abuse, and I actually feel sorry for people who act badly while not being available to be one of the targets they unload their dysregulated emotions on.

[hugs2u]

I am so grateful to have you all with me for this journey.

This is a great topic!

A while ago I read something about forgiveness that stuck with me.  When a dog bites you, it's easy to forgive the dog. But you take steps to avoid getting bitten again. You can forgive and set boundaries, at the same time.  

I don't know if I've truly "forgiven" my uNPD mother and brother for the havoc they have caused in my life. I have set strict boundaries to avoid their abuse but what does it even mean to forgive someone when you know that person will never apologize or acknowledge the pain they have caused? When you know that they will eternally cast themselves as the victim, living in a world where every bad thing that happens to him is a consequence of everything and anything but his own behavior? In other words, in a relationship, can forgiveness happen in isolation within one person, with no conversation or communication to the other person to tell him / her that they have been forgiven, and what does that look like?

I know what would happen if I told my brother "I forgive you." He would at first be perplexed, silent, then slowly mull it over and then become enraged. He is the hero, the family guy, the smart one, the martyr. He isn't going to hear the words "I forgive you" like a normal person would hear those words. Instead he would interpret it as an attack from me, the evil one.

I also struggle with forgiving myself. Why did I waste so much of my time, money and energy on trying to fix other people? People who after I did so much for them, turned around and belittled me, called me sinister, laughed at me, yelled at me? Honestly I am not even sure what it would feel like to truly forgive myself for my mistakes.

I am curious to hear how others feel after forgiveness.  How does it make you feel, what has changed in your life?

[khibomsis]

For me it is that feeling of "go well. bless you". A letting go. A sigh of relief that I am not going to allow this person space in my head anymore, Gives me more space to love me. When I get it right I truly understand those who say that forgiveness is about me, and what I choose or do not choose to carry with me in life. For indeed it is not possible to forgive everyone.
I am working at forgiving my uNPD mom for what she did to me. She passed on, so certainly no point in harbouring resentment any longer.  Mainly it resolved into forgiving her for setting me up for abuse later in life. I find that rather than one big forgiveness it becomes a matter of lots of small acts. Every time I remember something she did, the consequences of which I still experience today, I rage first and then I say "I forgive you for this". Bit by bit it really is freeing up mental space.
 

[Sunflower45]

Thank you all for your thoughtful insights and for sharing your experiences.

I read an excellent book that reflects the perspective that tvda shared. It is called Forgiving & Not Forgiving: Why Sometimes it’s Better Not to Forgive, by Jeanne Safer. It’s available on Amazon. The author makes the point that the important thing is to go through a process of reengaging with your past, recognizing the impact on you, and reinterpreting the meaning - just like the steps in Survivor to Thriver. The process matters more than the outcome. Possible healthy outcomes can include forgiveness or what she calls unvengeful unforgiveness. Unforgiveness can be perfectly appropriate when the person who caused the pain lacks remorse and has done great damage. The examples given in the book include cases of child abuse and neglect that would be very familiar to this online community.

I have also realized that I can’t forgive someone who is continuing to actively hurt me. Ironically, cutting off all contact with my BPD mother may be the only way I can forgive her. But right now, I’m comfortable not forgiving her and not devoting a lot of energy to even thinking about it.

[missing NC]

Thank you for bringing up this topic, Sunflower. It is one I have grappled with for some time. I too feel like my sister has to be fully out of my life and not inflicting further damage before there is any hope that I can begin to recover let alone integrate the experience or entertain some form of forgiveness.  Once that happens, I am really more interested in forgetting and moving on. 

I have seen a number of really heroic models of forgiving really egregious actions but in all of the cases, the perpetrator was not a family member and/or (usually and) the victim benefitted from considerable social support and understanding of their predicament. That is missing in these cases, which I think makes the integration that much harder. 

[madeline7]

I've always associated the word forgive with forget, and I do not know how to "forget" when the person who caused harm is continuing to actively hurt me. I'm also struggling with radical acceptance, and just when I think I am there, I realize I am most likely not. So I think that Sunflowers post about unvengeful unforgiveness is where I sit for now. And I will focus on the unvengeful part, and strive to be as compassionate as I can while preserving my feeling whole.

[UntiedShoes]

I saw you said you read that forgiveness is a gift.  I then kind of went down a rabbit hole with it.
I would say a gift can only be a gift if it is received by either party, and other wise it is akin to perhaps sitting in a room a friends and someone gets you an unsightly pair of socks.
As a social nicety you nod your head and smile, but it has become a mental burden on both you and the gift giver since the gift giver clearly didn't know you well enough and you felt pressured due to social constraint.

What is a gift? often a gift is more valuable when given outside of the context of a "special day" so...a surprise. Meaning, it is not necessarily "deserved" or expected.
A good gift reflects the relationship, so knowing a person makes the gift meaningful and purposeful.

For my BPD, I did not have a moment of "forgiveness" where I forgot and "moved on" per se. In fact, I spent a great deal of time trapped in a whirlpool of flashbacks and incidents that incensed me and awoke my anger towards each and every incident. What I have instead of forgiveness are moments of understanding and what some people call "forgiveness" they deem a moment in time in which you absolve a person of their deeds. Instead of this "black and white" moment of exoneration. I had a moment of realization that my mother attacked me because I was the closest reminder of her unresolved projections. Didn't make it right or justified, but that understanding made it less personal albeit unjustified. I told this to her, and she remained silent...she had moments of clarity after that and moments of rebound into old habits.

My understanding was not contingent on her habits, which for me...freed me from feeling victim to her moods because what I then saw was replaying of old projections. Which is why often abusers just utilize whoever is around and closest.

Forgiving, is an exchange of energy where you say this has happened but I release the need for change for me. It didn't change what happened and it didn't even change my anger towards some of it..it just changed how I absorbed that energy.


This has taken me about 15 years...and I still have about 20 more flashbacks to do that with, but alas.
Unsure if this was helpful but if forgiveness were a gift...understanding the person is "giving for sanity" instead of social pressure.

Sorry if unhelpful, was just my experience.

[Aerials]

My BPD/NPD mother has seemed to think "forgiveness" was a blank check to do and say whatever she wanted, so in that way, it was not possible. She has written me letters during these 7 years of NC about how I "need to move on, forgive, and create peace for the sake of my children." Even the postage on these letters had a melodramatically placed John Lennon Peace stamp on them. As always, she puts the onus and blame on me and thinks she can use my children as leverage.

I think forgiveness is more about recognizing that the BPD family member has a brain that is broken. As with someone who has substance abuse, they are the ones who ultimately have to recognize how their actions have affected relationships and take responsibility for any hope of forgiveness.

I have watched the somewhat obscure music video "Headlights" by Eminem/Spike Lee a few times in the last few years as, to me, the most meaningful and complicated depiction of what it looks like to "forgive" a parent who has a lack of insight on their mental illness. Ultimately, in that case as with mine, there is no contact with the grandkids despite frequent letters from the  his mother, but it is not the once seemingly easy and anger-fueled decision that it appeared to be when we were young in our 20s. There is now empathy for the parent and a deep, unfulfilled desire to fix their brain; it remains a struggle-acceptance that the mother cannot be part of yours or the kids' lives.

[Methuen]

Forgiving, is an exchange of energy where you say this has happened but I release the need for change for me. It didn't change what happened and it didn't even change my anger towards some of it..it just changed how I absorbed that energy.

Love this!

...my mother attacked me because I was the closest reminder of her unresolved projections. Didn't make it right or justified, but that understanding made it less personal albeit unjustified. I told this to her, and she remained silent...she had moments of clarity after that and moments of rebound into old habits.

yes to this.  I am interested in her reaction when you told her that she was attacking you because you were the closest reminder of her unresolved projections.  You say she remained silent at the time...is that the end of the story?  I am trying to imagine what my mom would say/do if I stated this truth to her.  I haven't tried this.  But I am so curious...how long ago was that, and whether it boomeraged back at you in any way at some later time...or did she in some way (verbal or nonverbal) acknowledge that truth?

[UntiedShoes]

@Methuen
Her reaction was silent, and to be honest only some things changed. Extricating myself from the abusive situation gave me the ability to deal with her when she "closed her eyes" again. Which she does, all the time.
However, the power she had when she thought I believed in her power over me was gone and she knew it. Because now if she says something hurtful, she knows that I know it's her projection so it won't have the same effect it did before. It's less about her changing and more about the fact I actually feel bad that it's the only tactic she knows how to use to make herself feel better.
There will always be the risk of vengeance  and retribution for people like this, but it comes out of a pretty weak point. Whereas , as a survivor of all these mind games - I've become pretty mentally strong and evolved away from projections - so if anything I just feel bad lately more than I feel threatened.

[Methuen]

@untiedshoes:

However, the power she had when she thought I believed in her power over me was gone and she knew it. Because now if she says something hurtful, she knows that I know it's her projection so it won't have the same effect it did before. It's less about her changing and more about the fact I actually feel bad that it's the only tactic she knows how to use to make herself feel better.

I'm intrigued by this.  It's good it's working for you.

@Sunflower:

The process matters more than the outcome. Possible healthy outcomes can include forgiveness or what she calls unvengeful unforgiveness. Unforgiveness can be perfectly appropriate when the person who caused the pain lacks remorse and has done great damage.

Yes to this.

I also love that there's so many different perspectives shared about the topic of forgiveness, and so many great points have been made on this thread.  Personally, IMHO don't think there's any "right or wrong" way to think about forgiveness.  The person who writes a book about forgiveness is putting forth their ideas, but there are so many books about forgiveness, that it serves as a reminder that all of our situations are unique, and so are we, and so all of us have to find our own path forward.  And I totally respect a person who doesn't or can't forgive.  They have their reasons.

I just have to say it again: great topic.