How do BPD mothers do as children get older and become more challenging?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

"Don't be silly, your mother loves you" is invalidating and confusing when a parent's behavior isn't consistent with this. But how to validate without alienating the other parent?

Most of us here are so worried about alienating our child we don't come close to alienation. We're more likely to invalidate than alienate.

We see alienation happening in the other parent and over correct for it.

Validating a child who says "mommy doesn't love me" is pretty straightforward. "Honey, that has to feel painful. Come here and let's snuggle. Did something happen to make you feel that way?" 

I think where there is a disordered parent, a professional counselor should take this role to avoid triangulation and to explain that the parent's behavior isn't the child's fault.

A counselor is there an hour a week, whereas we're there all the time. I found both were necessary, including sessions with me and my son together with a therapist.

My son once said of his dad, "I don't remember what he said, but I remember how I felt."

We have to provide a place for those feelings to be felt and validated otherwise they harden inside like they're a true reflection of who the child is, rather than realizing that mom is putting those feelings there because of her own shortcomings.

[livednlearned]

"Don't be silly, your mother loves you" is invalidating and confusing when a parent's behavior isn't consistent with this. But how to validate without alienating the other parent?

Most of us here are so worried about alienating our child we don't come close to alienation. We're more likely to invalidate than alienate.

We see alienation happening in the other parent and over correct for it.

Validating a child who says "mommy doesn't love me" is pretty straightforward. "Honey, that has to feel painful. Come here and let's snuggle. Did something happen to make you feel that way?" 

I think where there is a disordered parent, a professional counselor should take this role to avoid triangulation and to explain that the parent's behavior isn't the child's fault.

A counselor is there an hour a week, whereas we're there all the time. I found both were necessary, including sessions with me and my son together with a therapist.

My son once said of his dad, "I don't remember what he said, but I remember how I felt."

We have to provide a place for those feelings to be felt and validated otherwise they harden inside like they're a true reflection of who the child is, rather than realizing that mom is putting those feelings there because of her own shortcomings.

[Notwendy]

I agree, the counselor is only there an hour a week. I think it's great that posters here have the knowlege and the drive to do this better. In my parents' time- the early years of their marriage- there were few resources.

With my BPD mother's ability to "pull it together" in public, we learned quickly that other adults in the family would not believe us if we said anything to the contrary and would chastise us for saying it.

Mom is putting those feelings there because of her own shortcomings.

Yes, but we had no idea. One example is that as a teen, she told me I was the cause of her issues with my father and the cause of her behavior. I actually believed that when I left home for college, my parents would be happy and get along.

It wasn't until several years later that a sibling told me that their issues still continued after I left home.

I think it's wonderful you are addressing this with the children now.

[Cat Familiar]

To answer your original question at the beginning of your thread, I was very close to my BPD mom until teenage years. When I began to individuate, which was probably years later than I would have, had she been emotionally healthy, she saw it as a threat.

I remember her saying, “You don’t like that” about some inconsequential issue, and me arguing back, “Yes I do.” I think it was about a food preference. Finally she admitted, “I guess that was me who doesn’t like it.” This happened repeatedly and now I see it as a sign that she wasn’t accepting that I was a separate person with my own opinions, feelings, and preferences.

When I began counseling after divorcing my first BPD husband, the therapist said, “We’re going to build you a self.” It was a surprising concept to think I had been navigating adulthood for some time without really knowing what I wanted, instead I thought my job was to be a people pleaser.

It’s great that you are aware of the deficits that a BPD mother has and are actively seeking how to mitigate the parenting deficiencies.

[zachira]

Counseling/therapy may only be for an hour a week, and it can give the child the confidence to seek out other people who validate their feelings.

[P.F.Change]

The mother has quite a severe case of BPD and is only allowed to look after our child because I'm there as well. I would actually prefer to live (coparent) separately but that's not possible.

She is extremely messy and lazy. She is also prone to fits of rage over delusional stuff, such as imagining that I'm trying to set up her up with other women. I cope with her moodiness by disengaging. I have to hire cleaners. I do pretty much all the adult things, like earning an income, grocery shopping and cooking.I try to avoid arguing, though she sometimes goes on rants without me doing anything.

Living separately would be disastrous for the mother-child relationship. Supervised visits isn't really being a parent is it? I don't see that as a good option. And it would be a bit tougher on me having to do nearly all the parenting alone while trying to earn an income.

I'm having a little trouble reconciling these two posts. Maybe you can help me understand.

On the one hand, your co-parent can only look after your child because someone is supervising (right now, that's you), and on the other hand, you feel that if she had supervised visits, it would mean she's not really being a parent.

On the one hand, you're doing nearly all the adult things alone while you're living together, and on the other hand, you don't want to live apart because you'd have to do all the parenting alone.

We are here to support you whatever your choice may be. We're also here to help you look at your own thinking. To me, it seems like time between your daughters and their mother has to be supervised no matter what, and her status as a parent is the same whether you're doing the supervising or someone else is. If you're already doing all the adulting on your own, not only for you and your children but for their mother, what would be so different about doing all the adulting on your own but for fewer people?

When my exh moved out, I was so anxious about being on my own. I thought, "Oh, no, who will fix things when they break in the house?" And then instantly, I realized: I will. It's always been me taking care of everything that breaks. He never tried to fix or maintain even one thing in all the years we lived together. So, I get it--there can be a fear of being alone. But sometimes it keeps us from seeing how alone we already are. You're worried about not being able to take a break, but if you're having to supervise her when you're together, are you really getting a break now? Babysitters and relatives help parents who are living together and parents who are living apart. You would have options either way. What kind of family support do you have?

I am also curious about what you mean about the mother-child relationship being disastrous if you were to live separately. Frequently, especially with a BPD mother, the mother-child relationship is disastrous when living together. It's also true that many parents don't live with their children all the time--including me--and the kids are actually all right. If you needed to live apart from their mother, your children would be ok.

[Notwendy]

If she is severely BPD, she, herself, may not be able to live alone. Is this an unspoken concern?

[summerholiday]

Thanks people for sharing your experiences. The message I'm getting that having a child rely on a BPD parent for emotional regulation and development is generally a bad idea. Hence, there is a need to limit time together.

Am doing this already to an extent with childcare services and my own close involvement as a father. Will keep working at it. Your feedback is appreciated.

[summerholiday]

I found this resource that explores the custody issue: https://timtab.com/how-to-co-parent-with-bpd-ex/

The article is good in terms of details for what can be included in parenting plans and what sort of custody schedules are applicable. For BPD co-parents, it is recommended that visitation times be limited and fairly short. Parenting plans should contain extra provisions to do with unwanted behavior.

Am not at the point of physically separating but it's always an option. The mwBPD just informed that she received 3 traffic infringement notices in the last week that she can't pay. I don't want to help but not doing so would cause more trouble for everyone in the long run.

[summerholiday]

If she is severely BPD, she, herself, may not be able to live alone. Is this an unspoken concern?

Yes it is. If she was more functional, I would being trying harder to have her live independently. She is capable in many areas (and has multiple degrees) but is just too slovenly to maintain a home properly. She spends most of her time on "spiritual stuff" while looking down on "practical" people who think an adult should tidy up after themselves.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother is also very intelligent, but that doesn't seem to translate into daily tasks and as a result she is low functioning. But the difference between what she can't do and what she can but won't do is hard to discern. Either way, there isn't much incentive to do something she doesn't want to do if someone does it for her and she has not had to do it.

I think we all would rather do something more fun than housework, but know it's something we need to be responsible for doing. Kids would say the same thing- they would rather play than pick up their toys, but part of teaching them to be adults is to teach them to take on responsibilities. Living in the same home, you don't want to live in a mess, so you clean it up. But then, you don't know what she could do if people didn't do it for her.

You have asked about the effect on children as they get older- children also become more capable of doing household tasks and while I think it's important for children to help at home, I think my BPD mother relates to us more as her servants than her adult children.

[Notwendy]

I think the "looking down" on practical tasks is a bit of smokescreen for their not doing it and maintaining self image. With my mother it's also narcisism. She's "above" doing these tasks and so they go to "lesser" people. When I am around her she enlists me to do menial things for her. Somehow it meets an emotional need for her to be "waited on".

You are not clear about the direction you want your relationship to go, but if you are concerned that your partner can not live on her own without assistance and will need to have help, I hope you are considering this in your financial planning- for when you retire or if you choose to not live with her.

[PeteWitsend]

I'm concerned about the teenage years; I'm worried uBPDxw will take the approach of being FAR too lenient with discipline during those times, in order to ensure our child doesn't choose to live with me more. 

For example, decide that she'll allow our child to stay out later than I would, (or have no curfew) to ensure that they'd prefer to live with her.

I can see her making this a race to the bottom

[PeteWitsend]

I think the "looking down" on practical tasks is a bit of smokescreen for their not doing it and maintaining self image. With my mother it's also narcisism. She's "above" doing these tasks and so they go to "lesser" people. When I am around her she enlists me to do menial things for her. Somehow it meets an emotional need for her to be "waited on".

You are not clear about the direction you want your relationship to go, but if you are concerned that your partner can not live on her own without assistance and will need to have help, I hope you are considering this in your financial planning- for when you retire or if you choose to not live with her.

I saw this a lot with my XW.  

I know from what she claimed and I observed she grew up poor and got picked on for it as a child (and this was in an already poor country); I assumed some of her hostility and aversion to cleaning, cooking,  child care, etc. was due to deep seeded insecurity from her.  

She would insist she was a professional and should be working, but from the glimpses I caught of her work habits, seemed to be equally lazy and work-avoidant in the office.  

I don't know if pwBPD are just lazy or so emotionally immature they can't handle the discipline required to work.

[Cat Familiar]

They’re experts at feigned helplessness and master manipulators at getting others to do things for them. Perhaps unmotivated rather than lazy.

[zachira]

I think splitting explains a lot of the helplessness of people with BPD and NPD. My sister with NPD is competent at doing budgets and being a treasurer for an organization yet sends financial info to the tax accountant every year that is pure mumbo jumbo. She seems to have a need to make me wrong. I am guessing that for people with BPD and NPD that when they are in their helplessness state that they become incompetent at things that they are actually quite competent at like the incredible public persona they can present which often makes close family members' accounts of their unstable personality seem to be unbelievable by those who only know them in situations in which they perform quite well.

[summerholiday]

Reassuring to hear that the BPD co-parent here is not the only one who is lazy and acts like royalty.

Haven't yet worked out why she is low functioning in some areas and not others.

She seems emotionally unable to apply her mind to tasks she's not interested in (e.g. cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping). She either doesn't do those jobs, or does them but extremely quickly and poorly.

She seems unable to just think, "Here is a task that needs doing and, if I'm doing it, I might as well take my time and do it well". And yet she has ambitions of writing novels and making lots of money. A bit hard to do that without a work ethic.

It's also more than just faking incompetence. She will let things get completely run down and shambolic if left alone.

[PeteWitsend]

If some of my uBPDxw's comments are true, at least some of her laziness & helplessness was calculated.

she wasn't always the most reliable narrator, though... but it would surprise me when I would see evidence that she took steps to create conflict and manipulate others (or try to... most people weren't fooled.)

though when she would dysregulate, pretty much everything would get dropped... some days she'd just skip going into work, or sit there and text bomb or send so many angry email rants, I figured there was no way she was working.

I think, in hindsight, it was both: sometimes she would intentionally feign helplessness, or privilege or whatever argument suited her at that moment to get out of work, cleaning, or other responsibilities; other times she'd be so  dysregulated mentally, that she was truly helpless and unable to focus on anything.

[zachira]

I agree it can be both. Sometimes the helplessness is calculated and sometimes the person with BPD is so overwhelmed, they indeed cannot function.

[livednlearned]

Haven't yet worked out why she is low functioning in some areas and not others.

In Shari Manning's book Loving Someone with BPD she refers to this tendency as active-passivity.

She seems emotionally unable to apply her mind to tasks she's not interested in (e.g. cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping). She either doesn't do those jobs, or does them but extremely quickly and poorly.

She sounds like a lot of teens I know 

What's going on when she does cook, clean, grocery shop? Under what conditions does she contribute to the household?

[summerholiday]

In Shari Manning's book Loving Someone with BPD she refers to this tendency as active-passivity.

She sounds like a lot of teens I know 

What's going on when she does cook, clean, grocery shop? Under what conditions does she contribute to the household?

"Active-passivity" is totally right. For example, if she has a problem with her computer, she'll take into a technician instead of spending a little bit of time trying to fix it herself.

Apart from child-minding, examples of her contributing to the household are few and far between. She does some things if I ask her. If I found the magic formula for getting her to contribute, I would bottle it. No carrot nor stick approach seems to work.

[summerholiday]

If some of my uBPDxw's comments are true, at least some of her laziness & helplessness was calculated.

she wasn't always the most reliable narrator, though... but it would surprise me when I would see evidence that she took steps to create conflict and manipulate others (or try to... most people weren't fooled.)

though when she would dysregulate, pretty much everything would get dropped... some days she'd just skip going into work, or sit there and text bomb or send so many angry email rants, I figured there was no way she was working.

I think, in hindsight, it was both: sometimes she would intentionally feign helplessness, or privilege or whatever argument suited her at that moment to get out of work, cleaning, or other responsibilities; other times she'd be so  dysregulated mentally, that she was truly helpless and unable to focus on anything.

She sounds very much like the one I'm dealing with. I've received thousands of ranting emails and text messages despite the fact that I never respond to any of them.

She also enters into states of extreme emotional dysregulation at times, where the dominant emotion is rage.

[Notwendy]

She seems emotionally unable to apply her mind to tasks she's not interested in (e.g. cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping). She either doesn't do those jobs, or does them but extremely quickly and poorly.

This is not only with BPD. Children would rather play than do chores. Adults are able to understand that if we want a clean house, we need to do the chores, if we want a salary- we need to go to work, if we want good grades and a job one day, we need to do homework. We are able to emotionally postpone instant gratification for goal we want to achieve.

How many of us would spend our time cleaning dishes if there was someone else to do them for us? How many of us would do homework if we were just given an A anyway? How many of us would get up early some mornings to go to work if someone gave us money anyway?

The problem with not doing something is that, one doesn't become competent at it. In my situation, my father felt empathy for my mother's distress and arranged it so that she didn't have to do much of anything. Someone else did it. The result is that these tasks are difficult for her- not because of a basic lack of ability but because she doesn't do them and so they become difficult for her. The feigned helplessness is due to a combination of some insecurity ( lack of practice and competence), not wanting to do a task, and some emotional need to have people do for her. She also found a way to get things done for her- emotionally abuse her family members into doing things for her or be manipulative.

But this constant doing for her and caretaking for her may not really be good for her in the long run. If you are taking care of these things for her, how will she ever get the incentive to learn? I don't mean something cruel like suddenly leaving her on her own, but expecting her to learn to do something.

[summerholiday]

She seems emotionally unable to apply her mind to tasks she's not interested in (e.g. cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping). She either doesn't do those jobs, or does them but extremely quickly and poorly.

This is not only with BPD. Children would rather play than do chores. Adults are able to understand that if we want a clean house, we need to do the chores, if we want a salary- we need to go to work, if we want good grades and a job one day, we need to do homework. We are able to emotionally postpone instant gratification for goal we want to achieve.

How many of us would spend our time cleaning dishes if there was someone else to do them for us? How many of us would do homework if we were just given an A anyway? How many of us would get up early some mornings to go to work if someone gave us money anyway?

The problem with not doing something is that, one doesn't become competent at it. In my situation, my father felt empathy for my mother's distress and arranged it so that she didn't have to do much of anything. Someone else did it. The result is that these tasks are difficult for her- not because of a basic lack of ability but because she doesn't do them and so they become difficult for her. The feigned helplessness is due to a combination of some insecurity ( lack of practice and competence), not wanting to do a task, and some emotional need to have people do for her. She also found a way to get things done for her- emotionally abuse her family members into doing things for her or be manipulative.

But this constant doing for her and caretaking for her may not really be good for her in the long run. If you are taking care of these things for her, how will she ever get the incentive to learn? I don't mean something cruel like suddenly leaving her on her own, but expecting her to learn to do something.

Something I've learned from this experience is that it is possible for someone with a mental illness to force reasonable people to do things for them. She bears enormous costs from not doing things, including living in a chaotic environment, being resented by all those around her and wasting money (e.g. missed flights, car repairs, buying things that she already has somewhere).

Normally, the choice is to help or have your or your children bearing costs as well. I get your point about enabling but there is only so much one can do. Your father may have been more frustrated than he let on.

[Oceanfish]

My mother didn't receive a diagnosis of BPD, however she died 32 years ago and I don't think it was understood at that time. She was on a rollercoaster of drugs, including powerful sedatives. She was explosive and quite horrible to live with. I began seeing a therapist when I was in high school to try to learn strategies for dealing with her.
I had to move out of my home before I graduated from high school because I just couldn't take the abuse. She stalked me and was clearly distressed from my departure. It seemed she felt abandoned prior to my moving out for the simple reason that I had grown up. I continued to try to have a relationship with her, but it was impossible most of the time. I learned, through therapy, to set clear boundaries and stick to them.
When I had my second child, she hung up on me when I called to let her know my daughter was born. The long and the short of that scenario is that estranged herself for a year, telling everyone that I wouldn't let her see her grandchildren. The family, of course, thought I was awful and I ultimately lost my inheritence. I asked her to please tell them the truth before she died, but she said, "I can't".
I don't think there was a time while she was alive that I wasn't seeing a therapist to try to understand what was happening and learning to protect my mental health. Later in life, I found a therapist who did EMDR for PTSD and that was very helpful, as well.
Your children will need support throughout their lives. I strongly recommend that you make sure their mental health is tended to and that they grow up, learning to identify the impact their mother's behavior is having on them and to develop strategies for surviving their environment. They will need to feel comfortable asking for what they need and understand how to access mental health care. You will need regular therapy as well in order to learn to set boundaries and protect the children. That, unfortunately, is going to fall squarely on your shoulders.
That baby girl I mentioned is now an adult in her 30s and has been diagnosed with BPD. Fortunately, I had already learned to set boundaries and protect myself.

[Notwendy]

Your father may have been more frustrated than he let on.

He was frustrated and we knew it. I understand his situation now,  but I didn't fully understand it then. I know now he did the best he could with a tough situation. But the frustration was apparent.

When it comes to parenting, a child only has their parents as examples. He clearly was the more stable parent and the most effective/involved one but that doesn't mean he didn't have an impact on us either.

The drama triangle played out with us in different ways. By early adolescence, in ways, I was "older" than my mother. But that doesn't mean mature- a teen is a teen, but a teen can be more emotionally stable than a severely BPD mother. She enlisted me as her emotional caretaker. This also helped my father. But in addition, she was verbally and emotionally abusive.

We were financially stretched due to her needs and while I didn't understand the whole of it at the time, she got whatever she wanted. My father went into debt- and the strain on him was obvious. If I dared to ask him for anything- he would snap at me in frustration. Since clearly BPD mother wasn't going to change, we had to acommodate. So, yes, he may have enabled her out of necessity, but we had to compensate for it and the double standards in the family were clear.

We also weren't unaware of their arguments.

As much as you believe you can mediate the impact of a BPD mother on children, I don't think you can control all of it. She's going to have her own relationship with them as they get older and  this is between them and her. I agree with Oceanfish that counseling for them, and for you is a gift for them.

[zachira]

My father was also frustrated with my BPD mother. I did not realize his level of frustration until one day when I was a teenager my father talked to me about how he had tried to get mental health help for my mother and she refused. He asked me not to upset her anymore. This was a terrible move on his part, as I was expected to forego my need to mature into an adult, and enable mom's meltdowns and dysregulated emotions. Whatever you do, let your children know they come first, and show you have empathy for what they are experiencing with their mother. This is why therapy is a good idea. It gives the children a safe place to help in their development into separate adults, who know how to regulate their own emotions in healthy ways, and do not take on the dysregulated states of their mother as something that is their fault.

[summerholiday]

Whatever you do, let your children know they come first, and show you have empathy for what they are experiencing with their mother.

That's what I'm planning to do.

I appreciate people sharing their experiences about the impacts of BPD parents on children and the need for therapy. The situation I'm in is only manageable because I'm a grown adult, I can see what's happening, and I'm more than willing to stand up for myself and the kids. Still, even in these circumstances, it's psychologically tough.

I can see how destructive her condition would be if her negative energy were directed at someone more vulnerable, including children and young adults. You couldn't possibly expect a young person, or even most people who would instinctively try to be empathetic, to be able to handle it without help.

[MeandThee29]

Kids need a parent that is emotionally stable if they want a chance at developing emotional regulation.  First is co-regulation (they mimic the parent), and then they move onto self-regulation.  Having to relearn co-regulation at 12 years old isn't exactly fun..   I was told "make sure your son lives with you for a long time. Don't send him out in the world to live in an apartment when he's 18.  Make sure he's at least 20, he needs to rewire his brain and that takes time".

Chapter 10 of "The Body Keeps the Score" is worth a read: https://doctorlib.info/travma/body-keeps-score/10.html

I was told that too by my therapist. My ex left shortly after the youngest graduated from high school. Even with them being commuter college students living at home, the therapist kept telling me that my stability and being thoughtfully open with how I was navigating the financial and emotional complexities of my their father's departure would rub off on them and subtly guide them into adult behaviors. Of course there's a lot I never shared, but being logical and positive in my approach would help them ground themselves versus just sending them off to work through young adulthood without seeing their remaining parent every day. The high conflict divorce took a physical toll on me, and I benefited from having them around to help.

I can't count how many people have told me that they are wiser than their years. The younger one in particular has overcome a great deal and has learned to really stick up for themselves.

[Notwendy]

I can see how destructive her condition would be if her negative energy were directed at someone more vulnerable, including children and young adults. You couldn't possibly expect a young person, or even most people who would instinctively try to be empathetic, to be able to handle it without help.

Exactly, young children are developmentally at a disadvantage when dealing with a dysfunctional adult who tends to blame and project. I think the teen years are also vulnerable as teens- even well behaved ones- will push boundaries when trying to establish their own sense of self. They may not have a strong sense of self yet but know they are "not mom" and "not dad". If the parent themselves has poor boundaries, or poor emotional regulation, they are not equiped well for parenting a teen who is trying to asser their own boundaries.

I was aware of the importance of this sense of self and boundaries in my own children during the teen years. It's a bit of a balancing act to allow for their own autonomy while also maintaining standards of behavior. Too much or too little isn't good. It was during these years that my BPD mother treated me more as a confidant some time, or became furious when I "talked back" to her. The rule "don't upset mother" is pretty tough for a teen because teens are not their parents and want to assert themselves. There were times my own teens upset me, and I had to have my own emotional regulation skills to navigate this- was this misbehavior or teen behavior? For example " take me to the mall but I don't want my friends to see me with you" is aggravating but normal teen behavior. But if the teen is so fearful and is also walking on eggshells- they are too afraid to assert themselves. I became more of a people pleaser.

It was actually in the teen years that I felt the need to have stronger boundaries between my BPD mother and my own children. Although I didn't leave them alone with her unsupervised when they were little, they were too young to pick up on her dysfunction during our visits. It was when they were young teens that my mother would attempt to form a relationship with them one on one. Even if I was there, they could go in the other room to talk. You are correct that they were instinctively empathetic and this made them vulnerable to "helping their grandmother", and she was beginning to treat them as emotional caretakers too.

[livednlearned]

I can see how destructive her condition would be if her negative energy were directed at someone more vulnerable, including children and young adults. You couldn't possibly expect a young person, or even most people who would instinctively try to be empathetic, to be able to handle it without help.

Her pathology and your relationship dynamics will imprint on the kids. Things will show up in different ways depending (probably) on birth order and temperament. At different developmental stages, they'll try to get their kid need mets using different strategies they see modeled by mom and by you.

My ex was fond of "mom loves the dog more than me" which became "mom loves the dog more than us."

My son started to say it. "You love the dog more than me."

 

I didn't find individual therapy helped much when it came to skilled parenting. You may find that books and this board are more helpful although individual therapy can be excellent at helping you see that there is a problem. Having a high threshold for dysfunction can make us not see clearly what is/isn't healthy.