I love my children which seems to make leaving complicated

[truthdevotee]

Hi all,

I feel intuitively to write this post as a way to explore and uncover reasons why I feel trapped. I have been with my pwBPD for 8+ years and we have two boys, 3 years old and 2 years old. The relationship has been fraught with immense pain and difficulty. About 2 months ago, I discovered "BPD" and this forum. My life has rapidly changed for the better. In another way, the pain seems to be increasing, which I see is a result of my growing awareness and the increased chaos resulting from boundary setting and becoming my authentic self.

I feel that separating - moving to another flat - is really complicated. But I have a feeling that there's a deeper emotion that makes the whole thing feel impossible.

At this point, how do I honestly feel about my relationship with pwBPD? Exhausted. Lonely. Tired. Desire to meet a new woman. Sadness at the weekly chaos. Guilty when I fall into my own irritable or angry reactions. Fear of the unknown.

But the deeper emotion is like a projection onto my kids. I identify with their innocence and feel the sadness they might experience if mom and dad don't live in the same house. I remember desiring my own parents divorce due to the chaos and arguing when I was young. They never did divorce, they stayed together for the kids. And so I feel a sadness but I think it's tied up in my own sadness about the idea of divorce, things not working out, etc. I feel angry and tired with my pwBPD. I so desired an intact family since my children were born, and I totally lost myself to try to achieve it. Now I realize that losing myself and appeasing my pwBPD was not the solution and would never make me happy, or her, nor our kids...

The environment is chaotic and I am often the triggering factor for my pwBPD. My children suffer because of it. The older one is more and more aware that something is not right. I would feel sad to separate, even if temporarily. But I'm so close to doing so... I desire to have time alone, to be in my own home, to show my pwBPD that her behavior has consequences. But I'm sad to have to make the steps, because I held the desire for the intact family for so long - even in my own childhood... I wanted mom and dad to stay together and for us to be happy... yet I simultaneously desired their divorce because of all the pain.

In order to make a clear decision and be able to decide to STAY or GO (even if temporarily e.g. 6 months), I feel I need to get over this sadness... this hope... which seems intricately tied up with my memory of childhood...

[alleyesonme]

Hi all,

I feel intuitively to write this post as a way to explore and uncover reasons why I feel trapped. I have been with my pwBPD for 8+ years and we have two boys, 3 years old and 2 years old. The relationship has been fraught with immense pain and difficulty. About 2 months ago, I discovered "BPD" and this forum. My life has rapidly changed for the better. In another way, the pain seems to be increasing, which I see is a result of my growing awareness and the increased chaos resulting from boundary setting and becoming my authentic self.

I feel that separating - moving to another flat - is really complicated. But I have a feeling that there's a deeper emotion that makes the whole thing feel impossible.

At this point, how do I honestly feel about my relationship with pwBPD? Exhausted. Lonely. Tired. Desire to meet a new woman. Sadness at the weekly chaos. Guilty when I fall into my own irritable or angry reactions. Fear of the unknown.

But the deeper emotion is like a projection onto my kids. I identify with their innocence and feel the sadness they might experience if mom and dad don't live in the same house. I remember desiring my own parents divorce due to the chaos and arguing when I was young. They never did divorce, they stayed together for the kids. And so I feel a sadness but I think it's tied up in my own sadness about the idea of divorce, things not working out, etc. I feel angry and tired with my pwBPD. I so desired an intact family since my children were born, and I totally lost myself to try to achieve it. Now I realize that losing myself and appeasing my pwBPD was not the solution and would never make me happy, or her, nor our kids...

The environment is chaotic and I am often the triggering factor for my pwBPD. My children suffer because of it. The older one is more and more aware that something is not right. I would feel sad to separate, even if temporarily. But I'm so close to doing so... I desire to have time alone, to be in my own home, to show my pwBPD that her behavior has consequences. But I'm sad to have to make the steps, because I held the desire for the intact family for so long - even in my own childhood... I wanted mom and dad to stay together and for us to be happy... yet I simultaneously desired their divorce because of all the pain.

In order to make a clear decision and be able to decide to STAY or GO (even if temporarily e.g. 6 months), I feel I need to get over this sadness... this hope... which seems intricately tied up with my memory of childhood...

Your post really speaks to be, as I identify with a lot of what you're feeling here. I'm almost a year into the divorce process now, but for the 2-3 years before that, I struggled with this internal dilemma daily. The last thing on earth that I wanted was to put our child through a divorce, so I was running myself ragged trying to do anything possible to make everything better. But, personality disorders are enduring patterns of behavior, so there's nothing you can do to make everything better unless your spouse really dedicates herself to becoming essentially a completely different person. Have you discussed your desire for her to make those significant changes? I know that's not an easy conversation to have, as I risked physical and verbal abuse whenever I would bring that up.

This is obviously just my opinion, but unless she's truly and deeply devoted to making significant changes, then divorce may be what's best for your kids as long as you can get at least equal parenting time, if not more. Have you met with any attorneys to get an idea as to what you can start doing now behind the scenes to build the best custody case possible if it comes to that?

If your wife is in the minority in terms of being someone with BPD that will willingly seek therapy to try to change, then maybe it's worth considering giving the marriage a chance.

[worriedStepmom]

One of the hardest parts of divorce from my (non-bpd) ex was losing the dream I had for my children.  I wanted them to grow up in a single house with parents who loved each other and didn't argue.   I grieved that loss, probably more so than I grieved losing my ex. 

I was also mad at myself for ignoring red flags and putting myself in a position where my marriage couldn't/wouldn't last. 

Therapy really helped me to process these feelings. 

My biokids and SD13 have adapted to the reality of divorce and are happy.  I don't think any of them want their parents to still be married.  S11 and SD13 have zero memories of their parents ever living together.  This two-house structure is their normal, and it has advantages - they get cats in their other houses! (H and I are allergic)

[Cat Familiar]

I’ve seen it said a few times here that it’s better to come from a broken home than to live in one. I don’t know the original author of that quote.

For your children to have a stable home, at least part of the time, is something to weigh against the chaos that your wife generates on what sounds like a fairly continuous basis.

[ForeverDad]

I remember desiring my own parents divorce due to the chaos and arguing when I was young. They never did divorce, they stayed together for the kids.

Ponder how those two sentences are polar opposites...  You as a kid desired a divorce but the adults stayed together "for the kids".  Hmm, how did that work out?

Remember that if/when you do exit the adult relationship, you are not leaving your kids.  Yes, you may not have them with you 100% of the time, but you will still be their caring and loving parent.  (Disclaimer: You may have to fight legally in a proactive way to remain an involved parent.)

I’ve seen it said a few times here that it’s better to come from a broken home than to live in one.

There have been several quotations over the years.  The earliest quote I could find was in the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce (1986, page 195) which had an interesting observation by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."

[B53]

I grew up in a home where all my parents did was scream and yell at each other.My father was verbally abusive. I use to pray they would get divorced. I married two verbally abusive men and my sister married one too. I had no chance of having a happy marriage, because I had no idea what that looked like. That’s all I knew. It took a lot of therapy to work through it, to realize that not all men yell. Years later I met my pwbpd and thought I met the nicest man ever. I had no idea what I had gotten myself into. So much of my hard work slowly eroded. It took awhile, but I am glad it’s over and I am back in therapy and will hopefully come out of it a better person and can be the partner that someone would love to be with.
Your children deserve better and so do you!

Take care of yourself,
B53

[truthdevotee]

I just want to thank all of you who contributed to my post.

Thank you.

Your posts are deeply insightful and comfort me, make me feel more comfortable and open-minded about the concept of moving to and creating another home for my children. I am very grateful for your experience, strength and hope.

I am trying to figure out all the difficulties I'm having and practicing self-love. I'm learning what aspects of my self-doubt (seeing myself as the "problem") are reasonable and if I need to continue working on myself and my relationship with my W. There are some days which become serene and peaceful - I just had 3 days of peace with no fighting with my W. Today things exploded. I'm learning what is me, what isn't me, and if it's worth continuing trying to work on me further whilst together with my W, or whether it would be more fruitful to move away, work on myself there, and see what happens.

It's hard. It's amazing how 3 days of quiet makes things feel so amazing, even though things get bad again and I have 9 years of experience (the length of our relationship) and evidence of things going bad again. The relationship has tested me to levels I've never experienced, and it has taught me loyalty and courage and determination. I'm now trying to figure out if more determination is really helpful. It might be that determination in a different direction - establishing a new home - is for the best.

Dealing with the sadness upfront by writing here and reading your replies is so helpful. It seems like I have to get over that sadness before taking action. By getting over at least a large % of the sadness before taking action, I will be able to take action clearly, confidently and in the best possible way to make it easier on my sons.

Thank you all... I'll be re-reading your comments.

I have been in contact with a lawyer over the years who knows my situation. My psychiatrist (I have OCD and ADHD which I'm treated for) is supportive too, which is good. I've collected evidence of rageful behavior from my W, here and there.

[yeeter]

I will chime in with my thoughts, having went through this same decision making dilemma for over a decade.

Early in the relationship I recited the mantra "We are two smart capable people, we 'should' be able to make this work".  But that was a fallacy, since as noted by others unless there is genuine acknowledgement of a problem and a willingness to work on it, change is not possible.  Over a dozen different counselors... and still it didnt work.

A lot of time on this board learning.  Grieving - and going through the stages of grief until 'acceptance' that I can not have what I want - a healthy, happy relationship. 

'Stuck', as you are having to choose between two bad choices.  Staying or leaving.  Which is least bad?  I chose to stay, build skills, radical acceptance attitude, and do the best I can to make the relationship tenable. 

I spent several years in a mode where I stayed, believing 'my children are better off with me in their lives on a daily basis'. 

In hindsight - I still believe that the interventions, deflection, balance, perspective on a regular basis helped them.  Also, during this time they got to know me more and build some semblance of a relationship between us.

I did not believe we could get to a 'healthy' or even 'reasonable' state via divorce court.  I always felt alienation would kick in and I would lose my children.  After a decade we ARE divorcing.  Not surprisingly, it is a high conflict, very long drawn out and expensive divorce with a number of unhealthy dynamics for the kids.  And I no longer have contact with my two daughters (12 and 14).  So my concerns were well founded.  My S16 is engaged and showing signs of a good trajectory and some healthy development.  So that is a bright spot.

Would it have been better for them had I left when they were younger?  I am not convinced.  For kids, a good divorce is better than a bad marriage.  I can support that thought.  But is a high conflict, bitter, hostile, contentious divorce where the kids no longer have one of the parents in their lives... better than a bad marriage?  It happens.

Its hard to know where you will land, since once the stresses kick up via divorce things can spiral out of control severely.

I guess my advice - if there is any chance of a 'good divorce' - take it and run.  Dont even hesitate.  But if it will escalate into a hostile, high conflict situation... I would weigh the pros/cons of riding it out longer.  Of course this will not give YOU the life you want, but indirectly what benefits your kids, is what you want.  So that part self fulfills.

Very difficult question.  Use friends/family.  Trusted advisors.  Counseling (although most counselors dont get it until they have experienced it first hand, and few have).

I look forward to reading more of your posts as you sort through these tough decisions.

 

[Bobby Newport]

So sorry for your situation.  As others have stated, you aren't alone.  Your description sounds eerily similar to mine.  I married my high school sweetheart.   We have been married for 23 years.  Our children are now older (19 and 16) and I am making preparations to divorce.   

Nobody can tell you what to do but I can assure you that she will not change unless you set some boundaries.   I would recommend reading "Boundaries in Marriage", "I hate you, Don't Leave" and "Stop Walking on Eggshells".  Do not under any circumstance let her see these books.  It will only make her feel threatened.  But the books are not for her, they are for you.  You can only change how you respond to her, not her behavior.   I wish I would have read these books 20 something years ago!

[JD2028]

...

At this point, how do I honestly feel about my relationship with pwBPD? Exhausted. Lonely. Tired. Desire to meet a new woman. Sadness at the weekly chaos. Guilty when I fall into my own irritable or angry reactions. Fear of the unknown.

But the deeper emotion is like a projection onto my kids. I identify with their innocence and feel the sadness they might experience if mom and dad don't live in the same house. I remember desiring my own parents divorce due to the chaos and arguing when I was young. They never did divorce, they stayed together for the kids. And so I feel a sadness but I think it's tied up in my own sadness about the idea of divorce, things not working out, etc. I feel angry and tired with my pwBPD. I so desired an intact family since my children were born, and I totally lost myself to try to achieve it. Now I realize that losing myself and appeasing my pwBPD was not the solution and would never make me happy, or her, nor our kids...

The environment is chaotic and I am often the triggering factor for my pwBPD. My children suffer because of it. The older one is more and more aware that something is not right. I would feel sad to separate, even if temporarily. But I'm so close to doing so... I desire to have time alone, to be in my own home, to show my pwBPD that her behavior has consequences. But I'm sad to have to make the steps, because I held the desire for the intact family for so long - even in my own childhood... I wanted mom and dad to stay together and for us to be happy... yet I simultaneously desired their divorce because of all the pain.

In order to make a clear decision and be able to decide to STAY or GO (even if temporarily e.g. 6 months), I feel I need to get over this sadness... this hope... which seems intricately tied up with my memory of childhood...

I feel you. But look at it like this- You are not modeling a good relationship for your kids. And you are hoping for a healthy relationship that is not currently possible with untreated issues. Mourn the loss of what you wanted to have but try to learn how to deal with what you actually have.

Your children, and you eventually, will be better served by figuring out how to a live a life without that chaos. Even if they are only with you part time, you need to show them proper management of emotions and adult relationships. Because they won't get that with your SO

[alleyesonme]

I grew up in a home where all my parents did was scream and yell at each other.My father was verbally abusive. I use to pray they would get divorced. I married two verbally abusive men and my sister married one too. I had no chance of having a happy marriage, because I had no idea what that looked like. That’s all I knew. It took a lot of therapy to work through it, to realize that not all men yell. Years later I met my pwbpd and thought I met the nicest man ever. I had no idea what I had gotten myself into. So much of my hard work slowly eroded. It took awhile, but I am glad it’s over and I am back in therapy and will hopefully come out of it a better person and can be the partner that someone would love to be with.
Your children deserve better and so do you!

Take care of yourself,
B53

Great post. I can't commend you enough for having the strength to work through those issues in therapy. One of my biggest fears when I considered staying with my ex was that it would cause our daughter to face the exact same issues you did. Many people would've been broken by what you experienced, but you worked very hard to grow through it and come out better for it. Very impressive.

[summerholiday]

Something I would put to rest is the idea that preserving a single-home family is important for your children. My experience indicates having a whole family isn't important by itself. I've been co-parenting my older kids for over a decade and I honestly don't see an overall downside for them. They are happy and gain advantages from living in two homes. They don't particularly care about the relationship between their parents. What matters to them is their individuals relationships with each parent.

The bigger questions are around how your boys can be raised so that they properly benefit from having two parents. I'm choosing to stay with the mother of my youngest child because she has BPD and is not fit to parent on her own. But I am also prepared to separate in the future if that's what the kids need as circumstances change.

Perhaps the worst result would be for your boys to be raised by a single mother with a mental health problem, with a father who isn't around much. You probably should be preparing to take on greater parenting responsibilities, including becoming the primary carer in the future. I found this article on co-parenting with a BPD parent to be useful in terms of planning: https://timtab.com/how-to-co-parent-with-bpd-ex/

I guess what I'm saying is that moving out and becoming a father who visits your kids may not be the way to go. You could be alleviating your problems but creating bigger issues for your boys. Either stick around or leave when you have a good plan about how you will protect the kids in the future.

[Snowflake90]

I went through the exact same thing. I spent over a year pondering, and wondering if I should stay for the kids. But perhaps even more than that, it's exactly like you said: I was reluctant to give up the dream. The dream of growing old with the partner, of having the kids around everyday. I think that's the hardest part. Accepting defeat. There's nothing you can do. Destroying your idealization of the sick partner. We tend to minimize their flaws, justify them, and only remember the good moments. It's a defense mechanism. Then we think about the kids. We think we're leaving them if we divorce. Nothing could be further from the truth. At least where I live, I have 35% custody and it's great (I'm a male btw). The kids adapt way faster and easier than you could possibly imagine. No doubt it's hard on them. I didn't want any of this to happen. I wish I had married a sane person and wouldn't have to go through all this. But I didn't. I married a very sick person, and I had no choice but to leave.
Anyway the kids are always happy to see me. I'm not burned out as I was when married, so I give them my full attention. And they pick up on that. You see, you think they're happy with you now, but they know you're unhappy and perhaps like I was, completely exhausted. They're very clever. A sad or despondent parent can't give his 100%. I can now, since I take proper care of myself. I do sports everyday and I will soon be ready to go back to the dating scene. It's been 5 months already.
If it helps here's how I proceeded. My case was pretty serious. There was a high suicide risk on her part. So one morning I told her I needed some time out. Immediately I told her I wanted her parents to come. She agreed. With her parents there with her in my former house, I started packing. I told her I'd go on a beach trip with my parents for a week or two. We'd talk. Deep inside I knew it was all over. But I knew it would be easier both for her and for me if it happened gradually. I slept at my parent's that night. That was my best night's sleep in years. Over time, in the beach, free from all the chaos that was going on in my life, I started seeing things as they really were. It's not only about the kids. It's about you. Do you see yourself living in this chaos for the next 5, 10 or 20 years? Not taking care of myself, living in the FOG, constant ER trips due to her self harm, babysitting the kids and working my @ss off? My answer was hell no. So about two weeks into the trip, I told her I was not coming back, and I wanted the divorce. And so it happened. Was there conflict? Of course, if you're divorcing a bpd, which for very minor flaws they will chastise you, imagine what a divorce can do. But still things went way better than I thought. We're very civil now, and we've made a divorce contract without having to go through a legal battle. There were lawyers but no lawsuit. Wishing you the best of luck. One final word. Take all the guilt out of the equation. I felt really guilty throughout the whole process. You have no guilt. Repeat these words as a mantra.

[B53]

Alleyesore,
   
Thanks for your kind words, that means a lot.

I want to say, that I have two wonderful daughters and they are married to nice men. They did not follow in my footsteps.

Truthdevotee,

I also want to say, that what you do is your decision, we are here to tell our story, not to judge you. If you decide to stay, we will support you and if you decide to leave we will support that too. Our hope for you, is that you find happiness, which is something we all deserve.

I do agree with Snowflake, guilt should not play any part in your decision.

Best of luck
B53

[Sluggo]

Struggled also...  have 7 kids.  The oldest was 16 at the time and youngest was 2. 

The two oldest had the most difficult time and severe alienation and still don't talk to me. 
 
The 3 youngest at time 2, 5, 7 ...  it was fine.
 
2 middle at time 9 and 13...  hard at first but now better... 

In hindsight...  younger ones adjusted the best.  The oldest ones saw many years of me allowing my bpd wife put me down and emasculate me.  The younger ones didn't

I would have been better off leaving sooner than I did.  Older kids saw and heard way too much. 

Sluggo

[truthdevotee]

Sluggo
B53
Snowflake90
summerholiday
alleyesonme
JD2028
Bobby Newport
yeeter


I read through all your replies yesterday after not having been on the forum for a while. Thank you ... every single reply helps me a great deal to reflect and listen and learn.

I found out that my pwBPD has BPD in around Jan 2021. After years of painfully introjecting and taking personally everything she said about me, getting isolated from my family of origin, and being treated badly on a continuous basis, I found out what was really going on. I continued my own self-development work to ensure I'm not making things worse by my own negative reactions... over time, this has gotten easier and easier, with a little light in the back of my mind reminding me that my partner has a mental health issue.

On the other hand, things are not necessarily "easier." Do I find it easier to feel loving and love towards her? No. . . sadly not... I thought that with the information about BPD it would become easier to feel love and loving towards her. But the truth of my experience is that I continue to feel disconnected, sad, and hurt by the things she says and does. And I'm less and less internally accepting of it. On the other hand, I'm way way less reactive then ever before, and I simply give myself the distance I need from her. Unfortunately, this distance is 90% of the time... Distance is what I desire. I don't feel close to her. I don't want to initiate intimacy with her anymore... all of this is coming from my deep feeling of dissatisfaction and wanting more authentic relationship.

I wrote a post a couple of days ago "It's hard..."
I find myself in the same inner anguish now and again with divorce thoughts jumping around my mind as I did over the last 8 years (the time we've been together), and in the last 6 months.

I suppose I'm learning the truth of the fact that she can't change... watching her behaviour with this newfound awareness of BPD enables me to keep an objective eye, despite feeling all the same feelings of hurt and dissatisfaction.

The most interesting thing is like this innate desire to FORGET. My mind forgets so easily about the last outburst. It WANTS to forget, it wants to pretend nothing is wrong, that we are peaceful. That's true we are peaceful - until the next outburst. The outbursts are monthly and last for several days... Yet, despite being peaceful, I'm still severely compromised and don't think I can change much whilst in the same four walls as her. I can't video call my family of origin to encourage my boys to have connection with my family of origin. It is so anxiety inducing because I know what the response will be from my wife - jealousy, hurt, anger, etc. I could push through the anxiety and just do it, but again that would cause chaos for the children. As my eldest son gets older (he's now 4) I see how he loves his grandparents and knowing that there is a wider family who love with cousins his age would be wonderful for him.

So... to summarize, I'm still in the same place and I'll now focus on educating myself about divorce through some reading because if it is what I eventually do, I need to do it with clarity and peace in my heart.

[yeeter]

The most interesting thing is like this innate desire to FORGET. My mind forgets so easily about the last outburst. It WANTS to forget, it wants to pretend nothing is wrong, that we are peaceful. That's true we are peaceful - until the next outburst. The outbursts are monthly and last for several days... Yet, despite being peaceful, I'm still severely compromised and don't think I can change much whilst in the same four walls as her. I can't video call my family of origin to encourage my boys to have connection with my family of origin. It is so anxiety inducing because I know what the response will be from my wife - jealousy, hurt, anger, etc. I could push through the anxiety and just do it, but again that would cause chaos for the children. As my eldest son gets older (he's now 4) I see how he loves his grandparents and knowing that there is a wider family who love with cousins his age would be wonderful for him.

Hey Truth, take what time you need to organize your thoughts.  For many years I kept 'trying' to make the relationship work.  Because 'We are two smart capable people and we 'should' be able to make this work'. 

But it couldnt.

Yet I didnt WANT a divorce.  And I didnt want to think I didnt 'try hard enough'.  And I didnt want to put my kids through the conflict that I KNEW would happen. 

I stayed in the relationship for years under the mantra that 'my kids are better off with me in their life on a daily basis'.  In my case I believed my kids would be alienated through divorce.  And that has happened (pushing 2 years into divorce battle and have only seen my middle for 90 mins a year ago).  Still a long ways to go, and the attacks via legal proceedings have only intensified.

My youngest is 12.  Had I left earlier when she was 1, there would have been some legal elements that would have been more advantageous to remaining involved (the courts give teenagers more leeway than younger children).

Some thoughts to consider for your own situation:

Dont spend eternity in the decision making process.  Make it.  Own it.  Commit to it.  Live it for at least some period of time (3yrs?) and check in with yourself at that milestone.  But nothing really works if you are constantly flip flopping emotionally.

Consider what divorce is likely to look like for your particular case.  Calibrate with someone that knows your partner.  Consider the level of intensity and conflict that is likely to happen.  IF there is a chance you can come out of the other side with any reasonable coparenting dynamic, pull the trigger now should you choose to.  'The only way around, is through'.

Its harder if you believe the process will result in financial ruin, kids used as weapons, severe alienation, complete character assassination, and a long term ongoing hate campaign to destroy you.  But even if ALL these things are true you need to do it if it means preserving your own self/sanity/health.  Get out, get healthy, then figure out how to help your kids from a position of strength.  It may mean a multiple year process and less than ideal in the meantime.  But again, 'the only way around, is through'.

Exactly 'how' to make such an assessment - I dont have great recommendations.  A good T.  Close trusted friends.  Family.  Your own GUT instinct.  But NOT 'paralysis by analysis'. 

The very best of luck to you my friend, on your journey.