Help with some specific issues/strategies

[UBPDHelp]

I separated this from my update and choosing lawyer thread.

I have a couple of situations I’m struggling with and could use some expertise.

My older kids both struggle with dad. Kid 1 is most similar (and occasionally shows some BPD/NPD traits) and although we’re all still in same house, kid 1 is the one who spends most time with him. There’s feeling sorry and trying to not be the focus of irritation until kid 1 can move back out (soon hopefully if job gets restored to FT). I have concern as I believe dad is charming kid 1 (over and above, no doubt he loves kid 1 how he is capable, but always underlying on his terms (as long as you don’t stray from what he wants).

Kid 2, also adult, despises him and thinks he is horrible and wants nothing to do with him ever. But kid 2 is concerned b/c oldest still spends time with him and younger two will, she will become focus of his blackness.

Kid 3 also despises him.  Is 14 so I know some is more dramatic than is real.  BUT, the conviction is strong with this one. Since January H and I had not seen each other. We stayed entirely separate. He also didn’t see two middle kids.  Only texted kid 3 once or twice to say to be quiet late at night. No other communication with kid 2 or 3.

Kid 4 just had birthday, but still young. Kid 4 doesn’t tell me about dad, but has told kid 3, she is afraid when dad gets mad. Doesn’t ask what’s going on, why am I sleeping on the couch, etc. 

We celebrated birthday together, uneventfully — saw H almost flip 2x but he pulled it in. He and I had to run an errand and went together (unavoidable, but I tried).  I only talked about work. Didn’t discuss our r/s. 

Issues — how do I both address kid 3 saying dad doesn’t love them or care.  I don’t think it’s entirely true (his love is limited to what he is capable of) and also not invalidate kid 3’s feelings.

I am trying to support entitlement to feelings, let kid 3 know he does how he is able (then invalidating feelings — having a hard time letting kid 3 think dad doesn’t love them) BUT reassuring I do unconditionally (but still get consequences for bad behavior + still love you).

I’ve pivoted as much as I can from discussing dad loving anyone, but kid 3 says a lot he doesn’t. Wouldn’t ignore me for 3 months, wouldn’t say horrible things to my mom or me and wouldn’t...

Suggestions? 

Trying to stick to my love is unconditional, can only control our own behavior and you have every right to your own feelings. And lots of hugs and positive (true) affirmations.

I don’t want to squash feelings, conversations but on another level, don’t want to be accused of swaying kids either.

I do think maintaining a r/s with dad is important as long as it is healthy (and supervised if possible).

Second issue — when we had birthday, we had to run out the 2 of us. We only talked about work. I did find out he is super busy and turning away business which is help practically speaking as it means his income is normalizing.

When day was done, we both went back to our separate corners. Continue a “business” text here or there.

Then he brings up getting together with extended family. Baffling.

I ignore it (multiple things in same text).  Later he says “I assume you don’t want to...”

I reply no, I don’t — and cowardly, but truthfully even if there are additional reasons — last weekend was busy and I’m beat so nothing this weekend.

He replies snidely that I know I’m going to be tired in four days and that he is taking the kids for part of the day.

I’m okay with that except some of the kids don’t want to drive with him b/c they have been in the car when he gets mad and then drives fast.

If I go I have some control for them but I don’t want to pretend.

Any suggestions?

Appreciate any insight.

[worriedStepmom]

Please document that H didn't really interact with a teenager LIVING IN HIS OWN HOUSE for three months.  That should be meaningful to a judge when deciding custody.  I also wouldn't assume that kid 3 was just being dramatic.  I have a friend whose ex has NPD.  Her oldest, at 13, decided she would never see dad again.  She is steadfast - he was emotionally abusive and she is done dealing with that.  Your 14-yo may well have decided the same.  Your H is being emotionally abusive to kid 2 and kid 3 at least.

If my kids were saying those things to me, I'd ask "how does that make you feel"? and just listen.  It isn't your job to excuse H's behavior or reassure kid that h loves him. 

Is it possible to get the kids into counseling?

[kells76]

If my kids were saying those things to me, I'd ask "how does that make you feel"? and just listen.

Yup, that's my thought as well. I think it may be less complicated to field than it seems. Not that it's not complicated how your kid feels, but in terms of what to do when you hear that expressed... validating questions/statements:

As WSM suggested, "How does that make you feel?"

Also:

How is that for you?

What's that like for you?

How are you doing with feeling that way?

That sounds like a lot... [then wait and see if that draws out some more talking]

...

Of course, tailor those to sound like "you" (versus a canned response), and in a tone that makes sense.

...

Once conversation keeps going, some more validating statements/questions to try could be:

And then what happened?

What did you do then?

Wow, what did you think about that?

Uh huh... [but in a "I'm listening, keep going" tone]

Yeah, yes, totally [again, in "I'm listening" tone]

...

I'd lean away from starting questions with "Why..." as that can come across as blame-y or "it's simple, just change X and things will get better". For example, if it were me, I probably wouldn't say

Why did you do that?

Why not just say X when Dad says Y?

Why do you feel that way?

...

Even though the words seem to say "I want to understand", my thought is that "Why" statements put the speaker (in this case, your kid) on the back heel, trying to defend their choices and feelings. When a child is telling you something as big as "I think Dad doesn't love me", stay away from anything that would suggest that that feeling requires explaining. Point yourself towards being a warm open door for anything they want to share, no justification needed. Feeling like they have to explain themselves to you can be stressful and turn the conversation away from validation. (Although, as they feel validated, they may in fact explain more to you... when it doesn't feel "required")

...

Hope that helps;

kells76

[formflier]

I think a combination of the validating questions below

Validating questions


And

Separating listening and lessons (teaching)

I've had several counselor stress to me the importance of stepping into a kdis world and staying there, especially if it's a "big deal conversation".

End that conversation and think about 1 or 2 big points...then follow up in a day or two.

"Hey son...you know it's frustrating when people express feelings (like love) in confusing ways.  Have you ever tried xyz?" 

Unless there is big interest...just plant the seed and drop it.

Maybe revisit in a week or so.

"Did you think in more about xyz?"  (then totally let their response guide the level of your response)

Everything from "that's ok...My door is always open to conversation if you think about it more.."

to a longer conversation.

The tough thing is to plan time for the long convo because you don't want your kid to open up..and then have to run out/end the convo early when they are open (if at all possible).

What's the counseling status on kids?  Ever done it?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Please document that H didn't really interact with a teenager LIVING IN HIS OWN HOUSE for three months.  That should be meaningful to a judge when deciding custody.  I also wouldn't assume that kid 3 was just being dramatic.  I have a friend whose ex has NPD.  Her oldest, at 13, decided she would never see dad again.  She is steadfast - he was emotionally abusive and she is done dealing with that.  Your 14-yo may well have decided the same.  Your H is being emotionally abusive to kid 2 and kid 3 at least.

If my kids were saying those things to me, I'd ask "how does that make you feel"? and just listen.  It isn't your job to excuse H's behavior or reassure kid that h loves him. 

Is it possible to get the kids into counseling?

I have been documenting. She has lack of text exchange and he has not set foot on this floor of the house.

Also documented his refusal to lock the door when he leaves. He actually texted his refusal.

Documented broken tv, dishes, rage texts. It’s all so ridiculous to even think anything is normal.

I am trying to get them to go.  Kid 2 and 3 need it most, want it most but both are painfully shy (wonder why?) and have said they can’t talk to a stranger about this. I’ve offered to go and break the ice and kick things off and give them privacy. Whatever they need. Kid 2 wants to do via text, not sure it’s a thing.

Kid 3 wants to but uncertain.

I offer and revisit occasionally. 

Guess maybe I really need to be the example.

I’m trying to listen and validate and just let it roll.  It’s hard.

Thanks worried Stepmom.

[formflier]

Are you seeing a T?  Have you been open with your kids about this?

A while back it was obvious that my oldest daughter needed to work through some stuff with a T.

I was open with her about my experiences/reasoning/purposes and I was also open that while I was always there to talk with her...I would never really be objective or help her work through issues because I didn't have the training and I was too emotionally close to her.

She understood it and has been seeing my same PhD level T for a while now.


Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Issues — how do I both address kid 3 saying dad doesn’t love them or care.  I don’t think it’s entirely true (his love is limited to what he is capable of) and also not invalidate kid 3’s feelings

Validation helps lay down the foundation for future (healthy) relationships.

Imagine kid 3 at age 25 in a loveless relationship. "BF/GF doesn't love me and doesn't care about me."

Which one would you be more likely to say if kid 3 came to you:

"BF/GF loves you even though it might not seem that way"

"Ouch. That has to hurt. How come you feel that way? Did something happen?"

This is long-haul stuff.

Dad issues are likely to repeat. This is an opportunity to introduce new material to the family of origin narrative.

Whether dad loves/doesn't love is almost superfluous at this point.

This is an opportunity to cement the trust kid 3 is placing in you.

[UBPDHelp]

Validation helps lay down the foundation for future (healthy) relationships.

Imagine kid 3 at age 25 in a loveless relationship. "BF/GF doesn't love me and doesn't care about me."

Which one would you be more likely to say if kid 3 came to you:

"BF/GF loves you even though it might not seem that way"

"Ouch. That has to hurt. How come you feel that way? Did something happen?"

This is long-haul stuff.

Dad issues are likely to repeat. This is an opportunity to introduce new material to the family of origin narrative.

Whether dad loves/doesn't love is almost superfluous at this point.

This is an opportunity to cement the trust kid 3 is placing in you.

Thanks LNL.  It is. I feel like darn if I can’t do it for myself, I have to do it for my kids. They deserve better.

I do believe he thinks he loves them and does on some level. It just very much comes as long as you do what he wants, think what he thinks, etc. it’s not that you can’t have your own idea, it just better be within the confines of what he thinks is acceptable.

I would welcome any validating expressions to fill the gap about dad.

I love my kids, tell them every day. Lots of hugs and accountability, but kind accountability.

Thanks LNL.

[livednlearned]

I would welcome any validating expressions to fill the gap about dad.

Pay really, really, really close attention to how you respond. This is almost more about you so that it can be more about kid 3. Active listening is nearly synonymous with validation on this stuff.

Watch for subtle shifts in yourself. I used to feel two things. Distress to hear my son say how he felt about his dad, following by an urge to smooth things over. And satisfaction that he resented his dad, followed by a smug feeling that I was the better parent.

Both are normal, natural things to feel and do.

With validation, though, it's about creating space for our kids to alleviate suffering, feel less alone, and confirm that their feelings are valid. Therefore they can tell the difference between this is me/right and this is them/not right.

I bear witness and try to say less. If I'm not sure, I ask a validating question. I let there be long pauses (hard for me  ). I make sure my body language shows I'm listening and present, although a lot of times things seem to come up in the car sitting side-by-side.  If I engage, I try to stay with questions.

When did you first notice you felt this way?
Did something happen to make you feel this way?
What is it that ___ does that makes you feel that?
Have you felt this way for long?

After we left his dad I became more real about how I felt. I do a lot of emotional editing, it's probably normal for a lot of parents, although I wonder sometimes if codependent type parents do too much.

One time then S11 said to me (shortly after leaving), "I feel bad for dad because he's lonely." And I said, "Then he should have thought about that when he was being mean to us."

I don't recommend being this real while you're in the home and I don't fully grasp the complexities of doing this when you have multiple kids. That was just me being real. That blunt validation built trust -- we can lose trust with our kids when we don't acknowledge what most kids recognize as obvious (and then learn, often from us, to override their instincts).

If your kids aren't into therapy, maybe make contact with someone and start building some bridges.

I found the family counseling to be very healing for my kid. First you have to build rapport, and trust. Then model how to open up (e.g. slowly). After a while we found that my son's T was excellent at helping us navigate new developments. He knew about n/BPDx but then that became background noise and we focused on other stuff, like peers and growing independence.

[UBPDHelp]

Pay really, really, really close attention to how you respond. This is almost more about you so that it can be more about kid 3. Active listening is nearly synonymous with validation on this stuff.

Watch for subtle shifts in yourself. I used to feel two things. Distress to hear my son say how he felt about his dad, following by an urge to smooth things over. And satisfaction that he resented his dad, followed by a smug feeling that I was the better parent.

I feel this. Not so much smoothing over for dad’s sake, but for kid 3 who doesn’t understand why he doesn’t love her. I think he does in some twisted way, but to your point, it’s not really love.

It confuses me. There are times he will really try to do something for one of the kids and it’s like wow, that’s sweet/great and feels like love BUT it comes with conditions, somewhere along the “it’s got to be on my terms” highway. We’re not talking “you can go, but have to be home by 10”.

It’s this dichotomy that has been my undoing. I tried to keep them separate and justify (or at least lessen the brunt of it) the bad with the good, BUT taking a big step back can see that the bad really is sinister manipulation and it permeates everything he does.

I don’t think he’s all horrible (at times convinced pretty close) and I can finally see that he can’t help some of it (he controls his behavior in front of others so he does have some level of control).  But I also finally see it’s not my job to fix it (couldn’t anyway) and it doesn’t mean I have to put up with it just because he can’t control it.

I digress...

Both are normal, natural things to feel and do.

With validation, though, it's about creating space for our kids to alleviate suffering, feel less alone, and confirm that their feelings are valid. Therefore they can tell the difference between this is me/right and this is them/not right.

I bear witness and try to say less. If I'm not sure, I ask a validating question. I let there be long pauses (hard for me  ). I make sure my body language shows I'm listening and present, although a lot of times things seem to come up in the car sitting side-by-side.  If I engage, I try to stay with questions.

When did you first notice you felt this way?
Did something happen to make you feel this way?
What is it that ___ does that makes you feel that?
Have you felt this way for long?

Kids 2 and 3 are pretty open about their feelings and are unbending that they want nothing to do with him. Kid 2 is an adult, so doesn’t have to if that’s the choice. I told kid 2 I will support whatever that choice is, if it changes, etc.  Kid 3 is 14 and can’t make that choice. Kid 3 doesn’t feel safe with him. He’s angry (scary to everyone), has driven fast (recklessly) in the car when angry and was witness to him getting made at me about nothing and telling me he was going to through me off (the 4th floor of the hotel) roof. I have become so desensitized to his verbal assaults, I was like oh, okay, he’s annoyed by something.  I didn’t even realize kid 3 heard him but they recounted the incident that I conveniently forgot (blocked). This is 1 of probably 5-10 things he’s done in front of a kid.

Kid 4 is mostly unaware but I see some avoidance of dad behavior. 

How do I make the younger 2 feel safe going with dad?  Kid 3 is quick witted and I do worry they might really talk back and create problems or completely shut down because they don’t feel safe with him.

The L said he will get some degree of custody. She literally said a 14 yo doesn’t decide and murderers get custody. She’s not the lawyer I’m going with, not for that, but just because she was very matter of fact about everything being clear cut. I want a bit more out of the box, prepared thinking.

After we left his dad I became more real about how I felt. I do a lot of emotional editing, it's probably normal for a lot of parents, although I wonder sometimes if codependent type parents do too much.

One time then S11 said to me (shortly after leaving), "I feel bad for dad because he's lonely." And I said, "Then he should have thought about that when he was being mean to us."

That’s my kid 1 who has remained with dad.  Kid 1 only speaks to me when dad is at work, I can’t text kid 1 when they’re with dad (dad asks, who’s texting you? Gets annoyed if it’s me but then other times checks to see if I’m asking kid 1 how they’re doing or what’s going on). Kid 1 freaks out if I talk to them and dad might hear. Can’t say their name. They just don’t want repercussions from dad.

Kid 1 is obstinate and we’ve had our share of disagreements. There are some NPD traits, I am hoping they are just traits and once out of this house, will settle down.  I just don’t pressure kid 1 and hope they can see how messed up it is that they feel that they can’t talk to me b/c dad will get mad. I don’t stop any of my kids from talking to him or get mad that they do.

Kid 1 feels sorry for him and in truth they have similar interests and always like to be doing stuff, so they go well together.

Kid 2 and 3 do not feel sorry for him at all.

I don't recommend being this real while you're in the home and I don't fully grasp the complexities of doing this when you have multiple kids. That was just me being real. That blunt validation built trust -- we can lose trust with our kids when we don't acknowledge what most kids recognize as obvious (and then learn, often from us, to override their instincts).

This is so true and I can totally see it. It’s hard for me not to be blunt and I wish we weren’t in this house together but kids 2 and 3 definitely see right through the bs.

If your kids aren't into therapy, maybe make contact with someone and start building some bridges.

I found the family counseling to be very healing for my kid. First you have to build rapport, and trust. Then model how to open up (e.g. slowly). After a while we found that my son's T was excellent at helping us navigate new developments. He knew about n/BPDx but then that became background noise and we focused on other stuff, like peers and growing independence.

Did your son come to counseling at first to see you open up or did you build the relationship and then when he saw you do it, was open to try?

Kids 2 and 3 could benefit but are afraid. The L I’m not going with suggested I get kid 3 in now b/c once papers are filed, then he would have to agree to therapy for kid 3. If I do it now, I can just do it which from a practical standpoint sounds good, but if I don’t tell him, can that be used against me in the divorce? I guarantee he will position it like I made kid 3 think they had something wrong with them.

Thanks LNL, your insight and your story are so helpful to me. Thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

This is a question about opposing boundaries.

In truth, maybe mine is not a boundary but would love thoughts on how to address situations like this.

I work approx 50 hrs a week, both younger 2 are remote learners this year, I cook, clean, grocery shop, etc., etc.  I’m usually beat at the end of the day. I had a bill pop up on my radar yesterday morning that needed to be addressed right away.

I asked for his okay to do so.  I’m trying to run things past him in full disclosure mode (he’s been weird about bills).  He gave me a bit of a hard time, pulled out a previous text from last month that he misunderstood.  I explained the distinction. Blah blah and he said okay, pay it.

Then he followed that with telling me he only wanted to discuss financial matters during the work week (he goes in at 10-10:30 and is home by 6, with a 45-minute drive AND makes 3-4x what I do!).

So, he’s stated a boundary, that I need to respect BUT it doesn’t always work that way for me.  It’s not really a boundary for me, but just practicality. So, I need to respect his boundary because mine is just a preference.


Is that the correct approach?

When he first said it, I immediately felt like he was just trying to be difficult, but taking a step back see he is exerting a boundary and I need to abide by that.

But, out of curiosity, if my inability to discuss during the week was a boundary — how do you resolve what would then be an impasse?

Just want to ensure relationship to/fro are understood on my part.

Thanks to any and all willing to answer this!

[formflier]

"When to discuss things" has been a constant issue in my relationship with FFw.

Certainly it's better, yet I imagine that years from now it will still be something that takes active..thoughtful...engagement.

Sometimes..maybe even most of the time, sending her a heads up/briefly explanation that she can read when she has time seems to work.   I used to be more explicit about "no rush, read when you have time..."

For me it's a work flow thing, while I have a paper out dealing with it, I make notes in google contacts, will handle the paper and then if I need to communicate with someone about it...I try to do all that while the paper is out..so when I "round file it" or file it...it's as "done" as possible.   

Anyway, it's worth at least trying to see if you can email or text him a "here is issue, please deal with after work".  Do you think he would be able to leave it alone until them...or if you raise something...does it have to be dealt with right there.

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

It sounds like, for your H, kid1 is the Golden Child and kid 3 is the scapegoat?  Both of those are tough positions to be in.

It doesn't matter when you have the kids start therapy.  Your H will most likely assume the therapy is designed to alienate the kids against him.   

We've had this with SD13's uBPDmom.  She hated all of the therapists, including the family therapist that she picked, because she thought they were conspiring with us to steal her child.  <giant eye roll>  The more boundaries that SD13 exerted, the more mom believed that SD was being alienated. 

The judge might not listen to a 14-year-old who doesn't want to see dad while parents are in the midst of a divorce.  Judge would put more weight on a therapist saying "dad is messing up 14yo's mental health in a big way". 

We finally had to explain to SD13 that mom has a mental illness.  I used the analogy of a coffee filter - most people listen to someone and the important pieces make it through the coffee filter in one piece.  For her mom, a lot of times the important pieces get stuck in the filter and all that makes it through are the negative bits.  So her mom is reacting to the only information she has (the negative bits), and her reactions make sense to her.  They don't make sense to us because different pieces came through our coffee filter and we see the big picture in a way she can't.  And our reactions don't make sense to mom because she cannot see our picture.

We talked a lot about meeting mom where she is.  We can't fix mom's brain filter. SD can choose to accept what mom has to give... or not.

[ForeverDad]

Kid 1 is obstinate and we’ve had our share of disagreements. There are some NPD traits, I am hoping they are just traits and once out of this house, will settle down.

There's a descriptive phrase here, that it may not be core behaviors of your child, as you commented 'traits', but more like "fleas" from exposure.  It's been said that it's hard to determine whether youthful behaviors indicate a PD, that's a general reason most professionals are reluctant to diagnose a teenager.

My son attended counseling for a few years during and after my divorce, from age 4 to about 10 or so.  I would usually meet with the counselor first for updates or concerns then I'd step out and let the session begin.  Our counselor made sure to share as appropriate, especially commendations.

[livednlearned]

How do I make the younger 2 feel safe going with dad?  Kid 3 is quick witted and I do worry they might really talk back and create problems or completely shut down because they don’t feel safe with him.

I don't think we can make them feel safe being with someone who isn't...

We can maybe try to help them navigate scenarios that aren't safe.

By doing that, hopefully we validate feelings of being not-safe. And give them skills for when not-safe happens throughout their life.

My son was 11 when we left n/BPDx and imo (at the time, and given legal stuff) the best I could do was sort of role play what to do with not-safe people and situations.

For example, what would S11 do if there was an emergency in our apartment. Then, what would he do if there was an emergency at dad's. I wanted him to have a groove in his brain for dealing with a passed out dad without naming the exact crisis.

Yours might be, "You're going to be driving soon. Imagine being in a car with someone you feel unsafe with. What would you do?" Or, if dad not being a safe driver is out in the open then talk about the next scenario, what will they do. What would you do. How will you help them if they choose safe but difficult option B version unsafe, easier option A.

Then help with the emotions most likely to come up. "There are always consequences when we stand up for ourselves. It's not going to feel easy or comfortable, expect to feel conflicted and awkward. Sometimes, the safest thing to do is ______. Blame it on ______ if that feels safest. In those situations, we are trying to manage two hard choices. One time, I _______ when ______ made me feel ______ and even though it felt like ______ to _______, looking back I'm glad I did what I did. I'll never be mad if you choose to miss a ride and need me to come get you/call an uber instead."

Even if the planning doesn't work out other things come out in those conversations. For one, it's validating. You are acknowledging that feeling unsafe is hard stuff.

With kid1, maybe the safest thing is to share your values and acknowledge the tough choice being made, simultaneously. "I get that you don't feel safe taking my calls or texts when you're with dad, even though I feel worried that you're in that position. You feel the need to compartmentalize and that's got to be a painful place to be in. Do you ever find this happening in other relationships?"

Did your son come to counseling at first to see you open up or did you build the relationship and then when he saw you do it, was open to try?

We did a bit of bumbling with therapy at first. It can take some time and effort to find the right fit. I went with a recommendation for the first T and she was meh. The second T was also a recommendation but I paid attention to the evaluation process more closely and saw S13 open a small portal of approval.

I don't know what your relationship is like with kid 3 so it might be different for you ... I established that I could be trusted through validation, and also by explicitly using safety language. "My job is to keep you safe." I would say things like, "I've talked to the family specialist specialist and I trust her. When she says it's ok for you to leave class without permission and go to her room, she means it. You can carry a piece of paper and give it to any adult who stops you." "I met with the guidance counselor and I trust him. He said if you want to see him, tell the teacher you want to talk to the nurse. His office is next door and he'll understand when you come to see him instead."

So when it came to therapy, there was history there with some of these supports.

A lot of this is about building trust. Kids trusting you, kids trusting with themselves, then kids trusting others.

This happened with the second T. We did a few sessions together and I stayed in my lane. T was exceptional at managing those sessions. I also learned to focus on things that were important to S13. For example, it drove him nuts with the first T that we talked in private for sometimes 15-20 minutes after his session. He hated waiting, and probably hated being excluded, idk. So for the second T, I made it a point to discuss stuff only by phone, or better yet, I came back in person, alone.

One way to build trust is to ask kid 3. "Want to go do this together? You can tell me whether you want me to go or stay. Let's check this person out and see what we think."

Unfortunately, right now it's probably all online and maybe weird. I know SD23 used chat features on some platform for trans people when she was struggling with that. It's possible that there are ways for kid3 to connect without feeling overly vulnerable, and you can help model that for them.