I am at a loss and need help

[Brooklyn1974]

I could probably write a novel with the things I have been through.  Married 17 years to my bpd wife.  5 years ago our psychologist told me she had BPD and she quit right after.

We have a 13 year old daughter.  During this time, my wife who is an alcoholic (sober 1.5 yrs) has cheated, stolen thousands, verbally, emotionally and in the past physically abused me.  I thought her getting sober would help but last year the pandemic made her freak out and she rented an apartment that her ex-bf owns.  My daughter was emotionally destroyed.  She just gave up the apartment last month and during that time she never stayed at it over night.  I allowed it because my daughter was so distraught and the times I told my wife I believed it was best for your to stay at your place, she would go to our daughter and say 'Dad doesn't want me to stay home with you'.  She would always bring our daughter into our fights.

The other day I looked at her phone and saw she sent a text message to my brother along with a topless pic.  I am beyond infuriated and also at my brother for his reply.  Her reasoning is 'I just found out I have skin cancer'  (which is 100% treatable with just a cream) and that he had cancer and thought he could help.  He had cancer 20 years ago and it was a totally different type.

Yes I know I jaded and yelled and she acted like I should treat it like no big thing.  She also asked our daughter her thoughts on it!  She puts our daughter into the middle of everything.  The last marriage counselor we went to gave up on my wife.  She said in her 30 years of counseling she has never done this.  Honestly, I don't know what to do.  My wife also threatens me with restraining orders for no reason, anytime I get upset she does this.

I feel like I am losing my daughter,  her attitude has gone sour, she clings onto mom because she won't discipline and acts like a child herself.  I contacted a lawyer and he said with her and her BPD, expect a PFA at some point if I pursue this, even though I have never threatened, hit or abused her.  I am stubborn and get on my soap box but that's about it.

Any advice on this?  I feel like I am stuck.  Like it's impossible to improve this marriage and I can't get out of it without suffering some really big losses (not talking financially).  It gets depressing and what I hate most about it is that my daughter is losing her childhood over my wife's BPD and the way I am handling it.

[kells76]

Hey, just want to say welcome back, I remember you! I'm sorry the situation is still stressful and chaotic.

the times I told my wife I believed it was best for your to stay at your place, she would go to our daughter and say 'Dad doesn't want me to stay home with you'.  She would always bring our daughter into our fights.

Sadly, PD people are masters of turning reality into a scripted drama where they're always the victim (or "heroic victim") and others must rescue/defend them from an evil villain/persecutor. It's completely inappropriate for an adult to implicitly ask a child to defend them, especially against the other parent. Yet, that is what your wife is doing to your daughter.

She also asked our daughter her thoughts on it!  She puts our daughter into the middle of everything.

Yes, PD-type people either don't have a sense of what is appropriate for children, or know it but that doesn't stop them from acting out the rigid triangle -- "Bad Dad says I shouldn't do this [you're the villain], but poor me, I might have cancer... Was I really that bad to not want to have cancer? [Mom is the victim, leading Daughter down the road of rescuing Mom from Dad]" Daughter is painted into a corner: "No Mom, you're a great mom, please don't die of cancer, you should send pictures to people so you don't die"

Again, not appropriate. No boundaries from Mom... just like you said:

I feel like I am losing my daughter,  her attitude has gone sour, she clings onto mom because she won't discipline and acts like a child herself.

DH's 12 year old (almost 13) has been the same way with her mom lately -- clingy, "wow you're a great mom", sharing clothes, etc, and it isn't hard to see that Mom acts like a preteen herself -- dying hair neon, not having SD12 do much HW at their house, etc.

This is a painful place for you to be in; I hear it.

Was your D ever in counseling? Now is the time to bring it back or get it started -- sooner rather than later.

Does D still have a good relationship with her aunt? I seem to recall a time when D didn't want much of her mom around (the dance recital) but wanted Aunt instead?

Remind me if you are in individual counseling/therapy?

You're in the middle of a swampy, difficult-to-exit victim triangle, if I ever saw one. Exiting may be hard but will be the best thing for you and your D.

Your W is an adult and is responsible (no matter how much she fights it) for her own feelings. She's used to pulling you and/or D into roles that soothe her feelings -- if she can project her inner turmoil onto a rigid external drama, she believes she'll feel better... as long as you both toe the line and play your parts on the triangle. Things may seem to get worse before they get better, but exiting the triangle and helping your D build the skills to also exit is the #1 piece of advice I have for you. You have an adult brain that can help you know that "even if I don't engage with W's drama, she will be OK, I can stop soothing her", but D is a child, and will need extra skills and support to un-learn that whole "Mom is a victim I must save" stuff. So, the sooner she can get back into/do more of counseling, the better. You, too -- counseling is a good place for both you and D to learn triangle-exiting moves. And here, too, though I'm still learning.

it's impossible to improve this marriage and I can't get out of it without suffering some really big losses (not talking financially).

I get it. When DH and his kids' mom divorced, he had fewer BPD-wrangling skills than you do now, and we are still experiencing the fallout with the kids 10 years later. So, that's a real fear. You have more skills and awareness; enough to know that sadly, your W won't think of your D's best interest if you two separate.

I wonder if building those "get D and myself off Mom's drama triangle" skills could make things a little better (or, at very minimum, not worse) in order to buy you some time -- get D in a better emotional place before any "we're divorcing / we're never divorcing" decisions get made. OK, the marriage is not improving. And you did try a lot of different things. You tried letting W have things her way -- the apartment, right? That did not seem to make things better. So, maybe the near term focus is "how can I keep things not worse". Give yourself a pass on "making it definitely better" for now; it's OK to stop the bleeding and get to "at least it's not getting worse" -- that kind of stability. You have enough on your plate.

what I hate most about it is that my daughter is losing her childhood over my wife's BPD and the way I am handling it.

What I admire about you is that you can recognize that, without labeling yourself as a victim, villain, or other, there are impacts on your child from your choices. That's a hard reality to face. Facing it is the first step to making the changes towards the better (or, again, at least not towards what's worse).

I truly believe that professional help for your D is a key piece here.

Let us know your thoughts;

kells76

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you SO much for replying.  I know there are thousands of posts on here and for you to remember means a lot.  I did setup MC for us and included our daughter.  She didn't have much experience in BPD but by the end she said that my wife shows those traits and actually gave up on my wife.  She mentioned she did this for 30 years and this is the first, that she was just spinning her wheels with my wife and she was not committed to answering any of the tough questions such as (are your intentions to leave your husband or stay)?  (What are your long term goals)? etc..

My daughter only did two sessions but quit, the MC said to not to push it.  I then got ahold of the psychologist that diagnosed my wife and gave her the papers to fill out, only to have her throw them in the garbage.  It broke my heart and realized that this was not going to get better.

The triangle is strong and I hope you can give me advice on how to break it.  My wife works at home and now my daughter is remote so they are together almost all the time.  I try to talk about our issues with my wife on the phone, however most times my daughter is nearby, it's like she feels she has to be the adult.  I told this to my wife and express my concern on how this has to be between us only, but it falls on deaf ears.

She got rid of the apartment last month but the emotional/physical bond between us is not there.  Most nights my wife lays in bed with my daughter and I sleep alone with the dog. 

I know my daughter would not try counseling again, especially with my wife not into it.  My concern right now is my daughter, like you said before I am the villain. 

I honestly didn't things could get worse until I saw that photo she sent my brother.  It makes me nausea to even think about it.  I need to remind myself about not JADEING but how could you not with situations like that?  As for boundaries I would have thought something like this, I would not have to set a boundary to.

As for my daughter's aunt, she doesn't contact to see how our daughter is, which is upsetting.  It just seems a year ago that for as much as my daughter was upset, crying and feeling disowned by her mom, she's now hooked to her side.  I'm glad they have a relationship together but it seems like it's at the expense of myself.  Is it my wife's way to do this so that if/when she leaves again my daughter goes with her?

When I confronted my wife about the text message to my brother (yes I was upset and loud) but never threatened her.  Her reply?  Why don't you divorce me?  Maybe I should get a restraining order against you?  No apologies, however she did tell me that she apologized to my brother because I confronted him about the situation. 

It just seems like one situation after another.  Just last month she took her nice silver car and used black house paint and painted the whole car.  All she kept asking me was 'do I embarrass you'. while she was on the street in front of my house doing this. 

I am at just at a loss on what I can do..

[kells76]

Just really glad you are reaching out 

OK, one quick thing caught my eye (where I think there is some "space to do things differently" and "have things not get worse"). I hope some other members will comment on this thought, too:

I try to talk about our issues with my wife on the phone

How does that usually go?

Does talking about the issues make things better?

As counterintuitive as this sounds... I have a hunch that perhaps, perhaps, less/no "talking about issues" together with your W... may make things better. Or, not worse. As a bonus, that would, by definition, eliminate your D listening in to that conversation.

If you have time, check out member truthdevotee's threads. He is trying a new approach (as old approaches of essentially infinite listening to his W's blame and emotions have not helped) of not engaging his W on any kind of relationship talk. No "let's work this out", no "let's talk about our emotions", no "I will listen to you discuss my family of origin" etc. He engages with W when it is pleasant or neutral.

Why that has potential to make things better (or not worse) is: you and W have trained yourselves that interactions = conflict. You're primed for conflict, disagreement, and escalation in any kind of emotion-centric interaction. I am going to make a guess before you reply, that >50% of the time, if not much, much more, talking about the issues does not make things better.

So, sometimes we need to "reprogram" ourselves, to have a different experience. What truthdevotee is trying is having interactions with his wife be pleasant -- i.e., focused on things that may seem superficial (playing a board game, discussing dinner plans), but low intensity. He is lowering the stakes of the interactions, so that there is a chance that the "training" that "interaction  = conflict" gets circumvented, and new "training" comes in play that "interactions" can possibly = "neutral to pleasant".

Things have been going a certain way in your household for a while. There is no fast magic... this is a big, big ship to turn around.

Consider these ideas, and we're looking forward to hearing back from you. Lots to talk about, so we can start here and then see what other ideas the group has.

Hang in there;

kells76

[Brooklyn1974]

When I talk to her on the phone she often will have it on speaker and I will ask her to take it off speaker but she will continue to talk to me with my daughter next to her. 

My wife was working tonight so I tried talking to my daughter and she's very distant.  We used to do everything together but she won't anymore.  Asking her why, she won't give me an answer and even is giving me issues to go see her grandmother tomorrow night (my mom).  She mentioned their are 'sides' and I tried to explain to her there is not.  I know she feels she's stuck in the middle.

I texted my wife about this, asking her to please talk to her that there are no sides and her reply was 'You need to be a better person'.  So, I didn't reply.  It's apparent she wants to continue this triangle because in her mind it works for her.  It's frustrating and hurtful that either she doesn't see the hurt that my daughter is in or just doesn't care.

It's times like this that I just want to end the marriage but as I said before I know I will be facing a lot. 

I tried asking my wife out to dinner or to go somewhere and my wife's first reaction is to ask my daughter and if she says no, then it's no.  I told my wife our daughter is not our parent or an adult.  She refuses to go against anything my daughter wants.  It's rare that I talk about the relationship with my wife, because I know how it will turn out.  It's almost impossible to get my daughter out of this triangle when my wife is now using this for her own needs.

[ForeverDad]

This has been ongoing for years.  Evidently no improvement, even with the involvement of professionals.  It sounds like you're realizing that the Karpman Drama Triangle (drama of persecutor, victim, rescuer) still just can't be escaped.

It just seems like one situation after another.

With all that's happened, all the boundary-smashing your spouse has done, there's one thing you haven't done, probably desperately avoided, though it has been mentioned.  The big D... Divorce.

You've probably focused on all the perceived downsides.  But things are as bad (or worse) as ever, right?  What are the upsides, if any?

Considering her past infidelity, history has generally viewed that as basis for divorce, however much you've avoided it.

Divorce would end the adult relationship with your spouse.  You could stop trying to fix all her misdeeds.  Her behaviors would be hers alone to own.  As noted by others here, she's an adult, not a minor child, you're not responsible for her.

Most important, your daughter would see you taking a stand to be a better dad, a better example, who will not participate in tolerating or appeasing unhealthy behavior and conflict.  Many times over the years it's been noted that children need healthy examples of parenting, that even if you are the only parent doing so, it will help the children to see what healthy behavior and a calm, stable home is like.  Children need to see that so they can recognize what is healthy versus unhealthy when they're grown and start to seek out their own adult relationships.

When I confronted my wife about the text message to my brother (yes I was upset and loud) but never threatened her.  Her reply?  Why don't you divorce me?  Maybe I should get a restraining order against you?

Of course, if and when you decide to end the marriage, you would have to have all your ducks in a row... Hope for the best but prepared for the worst.  There are a multitude of ways she may try to sabotage you.  She's already threatened allegations of some sort against you.  And she's recently been attaching herself to your daughter, surely in an unhealthy way, I'm guessing after her affair ended.

[worriedStepmom]

My SD13's mom was similar to your wife.  She shared *everything* about her relationship with me and H with SD, to the point that she tried to make SD watch video of a confrontation where uBPDmom was yelling at me on my front porch. 

We explained to uBPDmom over and over that this was inappropriate behavior and was damaging to SD.  mom responded that SD *needed* to know the truth about us.

It was very difficult for SD.

If you choose to leave, your wife will make things very difficult for your daughter and will try to alienate her.  However, it looks like if you choose to stay your wife is already doing both of those things.

I think you will need to up your validation game.  When you can get your daughter to talk to you or spend time with you, focus on validating her feelings rather than engaging with whatever nonsense her mom told her.  For example, "Wow, I'd feel pretty awful if I had to choose sides between my parents.  How does that make you feel?"  or, if she shares something specific- "That's pretty heavy stuff for a kid to know.  How does it make you feel?"

I married H when SD was 5, and it took about two years of this type of validation and studiously avoiding any badmouthing of mom before SD was ready to trust me.  Now she can see about 90% clearly what mom is doing.  Therapy has helped her learn to set boundaries.

I would try extreme validation for a while and see if you can get your D in a place where she will agree to therapy.  Better if you can get your W to agree that it would be good for D.  In the meantime, therapy for you is really important.  My therapist gives me skills on how to approach situations with SD and SD's mom, and it's been really valuable learning.

[kells76]

I would try extreme validation for a while and see if you can get your D in a place where she will agree to therapy.

Great idea, and it takes no agreement from anyone else for you to do this.

Better if you can get your W to agree that it would be good for D.

Yes. Tricky, but not impossible. Remind me, does your W see her drinking as a problem in any way?

...

And I'm going to bounce back to this earlier question, too:

Does talking about the issues with your W make things better?

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for the advice, I will start using extreme validation on my daughter.  It's just disheartening because I feel like she's losing her childhood over this.  Ever since she started remote learning it's gotten worse (my wife is working from home as well) so I don't know what is being said in the house when I am not home.

My wife truly believes I am the sole problem.  She won't go to therapy and is under the belief that if our daughter doesn't want to go, she does not have to.  My wife quit her therapy with the psychologist who diagnosed her as soon as she started asking questions about her past (which was extremely bad).

Talking about the issues with her just allows her to remind me of how awful of a person I am.  I am painted black.  It doesn't matter that she's cheated, taken probably close to $30-40k over the years, drank to the point of having to go to detox numerous times, raging on me and has been verbally abusive to my daughter in the past (when she drank).  She will just give blanket statements about me and asking her for examples will just make her start to insult me.

My daughter was beyond traumatized when my wife got the apartment, that night was a shock for my daughter and me.  Just a regular Friday night she is like "I am moving out", my daughter in tears begging her not to go.  Anytime my wife got into an argument with me or my daughter she threatened to leave.  My daughter was so distraught she blurted out 'You make me want to kill myself' and my wife replying 'Go ahead'.  I took my daughter to a safe place at 11pm when this happened.  Got her into counseling right away, one of the reasons because of that night.  My wife can be extremely vicious with her verbal abuse and she can be extremely revengeful.

It's almost like if I could find some sort of opening with her, something to work from but I just can't seem to find it.  For the time being I feel like I need to put my full focus onto my daughter and not worry about what my wife is doing.  You sort of become numb to the things they do and I've been there for awhile, you just wait for the next crisis to come.

It's just so hard at times to not jade and use set, part of me feels that by doing that all the time you are putting your own feelings and needs aside.  Is that something you have to constantly do?

[kells76]

My wife truly believes I am the sole problem.  She won't go to therapy and is under the belief that if our daughter doesn't want to go, she does not have to.  My wife quit her therapy with the psychologist who diagnosed her as soon as she started asking questions about her past...

That's a carbon copy of DH's situation over the years. DH as the sole problem, overempowering the kids, saying that "the kids don't believe counseling works", then she went to therapy for a bit but started telling the T some, uh, alternative histories, then quit.

Talking about the issues with her just allows her to remind me of how awful of a person I am... asking her for examples will just make her start to insult me.

This is an excellent insight.

"Talking about the issues" does not resolve anything. Your W uses it as a place for emotional vomit. When you try to rationally engage her, "meet her where she's at", learn more about what she thinks... same deal. Nothing is resolved.

What would happen if you stopped?

What would happen if you no longer engaged in "talking about our issues" with your W -- DEFINITELY not verbally on the phone, and also not by text or email?

Would things get worse?

Or... could things stop getting worse?

You have the power to stop engaging with your W in that way... and what is incredibly powerful about that choice is -- it stops your D from overhearing.

Win win.

...

Now, as to the exhaustion of "OK, I can't JADE... and I'm getting worn out with SET... is that all? Is that just how it is?"

Some "engagements" don't even merit a SET response, because any "response" just keeps the cycle going.

Have you considered "grey rock" as a response mindset? Keeping things dull, unreactive, etc?

Check out EyesUp's latest thread -- his wife laid on some serious passive-aggression in a text message, and he was wondering whether to reply to something essentially accusing him of being fine with her starving to death.

There's nothing to SET with there. Don't validate the invalid. It's sad she feels that way, and don't engage. Ignore. Grey rock.

I wonder if doing more "grey rock"/nonresponsive would turn the temperature down for you guys for a while -- then you get a rest from feeling burdened with SET, she doesn't get fuel for her fires, and D doesn't overhear "discussions" that involve her mom berating her dad on the phone. Just triage to take the 11/10 stuff down, so your brain can rest and you can muster your resources.

[kells76]

she... drank to the point of having to go to detox numerous times... and has been verbally abusive to my daughter in the past (when she drank)

Does W acknowledge any of this? Is she so far gone that, for example, she denies having gone to detox?

[worriedStepmom]

It's almost like if I could find some sort of opening with her, something to work from but I just can't seem to find it.  For the time being I feel like I need to put my full focus onto my daughter and not worry about what my wife is doing.  

At this point, I think you are making the right choice.  Your job is to protect your daughter. 

What you said about your daughter losing her childhood - that is exactly what my husband wrote in his affidavit when he filed for primary custody of SD a few years ago.

How long ago was the last detox? If it was recent, and if you choose to file for divorce, that is good evidence of your wife's unfitness as a parent.

Do you think you could get your daughter to agree to family therapy with you and only you so that "she can help you see what you can do better?"  That is appealing to her desire to fix things.

[Brooklyn1974]

Honestly I stopped talking about the relationship for the past 6 months.  Just ignored it.  But then she would start doing things to I believe either get me upset or worried.  Such as me getting a phone call from my daughter during the day stating 'Dad, mom is outside painting her car'.  Of course I'm like wth is going on?  When I asked her about why she is doing this, she couldn't give me a good answer and just kept asking if what she was doing was 'embarrassing me'.  I told her i was more concerned about her destroying the value of her car (and btw it looks awful now). 

It seems like by not talking about it I don't get the verbal confrontation but then does idiotic and destructive things like she did with the text messages.  She continues to have her 'second' phone as well, it's something I don't talk about but do I trust her?  No.  Absolutely not.  She has already said she said she wouldn't want to know if I cheated or did anything to her behind her back and I should expect the same.

She remembers detox but just says how awful it was and how bad the counselors were there.  She doesn't go to AA anymore however I believe they still try to reach out to her.  I know when she was going, guys were hitting on her there (from what she told me).

From what I know her last drink was Sept. 2019.  She would drink captain morgan straight up from the bottle.

I can try with my daughter but I feel her first reaction would then say to mom 'Dad wants me to go to counseling' and my wife would say 'There is nothing wrong with you, you don't need to go'.  Even when my daughter went I got the counselor to certify my daughter's dog as an emotional support animal, got the vest, etc.. hoping that would keep my daughter interested in going.  No luck.

[Snowflake90]

Hi, first of all, sorry to hear your situation.
From all that I've been reading my one question is, what's preventing you from leaving?
What is the upside in all of this? What's in this relationship for you? And from what you write, the relationship as is is damaging to your daughter.
I was super afraid of divorce. Therapy helped me muster the courage to do it. And you know what? It wasn't as half bad as I thought it would be. Much of my fears were really imaginary. It was actually the best thing I could do, even for my kids, because we were so dysfunctional together. The kids are happier now. Maybe less happier than a kid with both sane parents together, but certainly much happier than a kid whose parents are together and one of them is insane.
Are you into therapy? A therapist can help putting things in perspective.
What really helped me was, some sort of meditation. Not meditation in the oriental, traditional sense, but some time alone, to process my thoughts. Kinda like a conversation with yourself. I'd really talk to myself, like, how do I see myself in this relationship in 5,10 or 20 years? Are there gonna be improvements? Are things really gonna be terrible for the kids if I leave? Am I happy here? Try imagining a friend in your situation. How would you react? Very often we are very compassionate to others, but very cruel to ourselves.
Wishing you the best of luck and if you're not in therapy yet, I highly recommend you find one for yourself.

[yeeter]

What is happening is a form of alienation with your daughter while you are still married.  Once the divorce process happens, your communication channels will be less and less and potentially even cut off.

Read up on alienation and begin practicing some of the techniques.  Validation of your daughters feelings.  Not being defensive.  You dont have to share a lot of details, but it is ok to suggest there are different perspectives than what your wife is feeding.

Get her as much outside influence as possible.  Friends, family, activities.  Harder during Covid but essential since as you say the alternative is to be trapped in the house all day listening to moms narrative.

Start deliberately doing 1:1 time if you can.  A weekly or monthly tradition the two of you share.  Immerse yourself in her activities and interests.  You will need to do these things without your wife becoming jealous (part of the dance)

Ultimately you want your daughter to be able to be able to mature, collect various outside perspectives, and form her OWN opinions of you and the relationship between the two of you.  Independent from the relationship with her mother.

Consider doubling down on these things for a time period before initiating divorce.  Because although it might not be as strong as you like, the communication between you and your daughter could slow to a bare minimum, or not at all, once divorce starts.

 

[livednlearned]

Mom probably has your daughter in a loyalty bind and it feels dangerous for D to show any affection or preference for you, even if you are the safer parent.

There is likely a narrative going on that "dad doesn't love/want/care about us, here's how you can tell." Or something in that ball park.

It sounds like things have progressed to moderate alienation but hopefully it's early enough stages you can turn this around.

When my son started to disappear into a loyalty bind with his dad I read Richard Warshak's book Divorce Poison and flagged all of the chapters that addressed the specific alienation tactics happening. The chapters have specific phrases and tactical tips for how to handle the kinds of conversations that invariably happen when a child is being alienated. Some of them you can apply proactively and others are helpful for when you're on the defensive trying to respond in the moment (or, after the fact when you try to repair an interaction that didn't go well).

And like others said, read up about what validation is, what specific phrases to use, but go beyond that. Alienation is a form of propaganda and brainwashing, and validation is how you establish trust with someone who is being taught to trust no one, least of all herself. Use validation to create an environment that feels better than what mom is selling. The other skills help D with reality.

Use Warshak's phrases and tactics, and read Bill Eddy's book Don't Alienate the Kids. These books target divorce and co-parenting because that's often when alienation goes nuclear. However, you can use all of the wisdom in these books while your family is still under the same roof because alienation is alienation regardless of who lives where.

Also, this is a long shot, but I'm curious if there's an opportunity for you to take the dog to emotional support classes.

Mom will perceive that D belongs to mom (because she lacks boundaries between herself and D). Since the dog belongs to daughter, then BPD logic suggests the dog belongs to both of them. If you were to do something kind and loving with the dog in order to benefit your daughter, this might create some contortions in the alienation that you can address a bit more head on.

Ok. The thing with the car. Mom painted her car black and daughter called you. Clearly this is weird behavior but also ... daughter was calling because she was distressed. If you can, try to go for a higher allotment of attention on D and how she might be feeling when this stuff happens. Try to not be distracted by the content and gather information about what's happening for D.

If mom is doing _________, maybe go back into the house with D or find a place you can talk (best if the crisis isn't on tilt).

"How are you doing? Do you feel comfortable telling me what happened?"
"When mom said that, how did you feel? How did you respond?"
"I'm glad you called me so I could come and be here with you."

If it feels safe to do so, you could validate further by modeling your own feelings.

"I'm going to be honest with you, this behavior makes me feel ... afraid? worried? Definitely sad. It's a lot for an adult to take in, I'm trying to imagine what this has been like for you."  

Even if you are compelled to address the problem (mom painting her car), the real issue is how mom's behavior makes D feel and connecting with her.

"D, you doing ok?" (putting your hand on her shoulder or hugging her)

With my son, I also got ahead of the train where possible. This is a slightly different scenario because we were divorced, but I tried to get inside his head as much as possible when both parents were at events together. It kind of gets to the loyalty bind issue. "Hey, dad is going to be at the event tonight and it's ok with me if you look for him at intermission and hang out. I have friends here I can talk to, and I can hear all about stuff when we get home tonight."

Our kids need a weird kind of validation around the loyalty bind and the choices they feel compelled to make. It can be invalidating to act like that bind doesn't exist or that it can be waved away by saying they aren't in the middle (because they are).

"I'm going to help you survive this thing mom is doing" (without explicitly saying that) is not how any of us wanted to parent but here we are.

My son (now 19) has said to me about his dad, "I don't remember what he said but I remember how I felt." I think he heard that in a Maya Angelou quote and it resonated with him. He doesn't remember the details the way I do, but he does remember that I was the emotionally safe parent.

You can be that for D