Brief weird update, just venting

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I think this is just a vent, as there's not much we can do about it. But it's weird and uncomfortable enough that there really isn't anyone in real life I can share it with (besides DH).

Brief backstory, the kids' mom's current husband (Stepdad) used to be DH's best friend way, way back. But, when DH and Mom started having marriage issues, they asked him to help them work stuff out (he had just gone through his own divorce and DH believed he would have tools to help them). Stepdad's own dad had left the family (or so the story goes) when Stepdad was an early teen, so Stepdad took Mom's side in the divorce. They started seeing each other during the separation and were engaged 3 months after DH/Mom's divorce was final. And, apparently, according to DH, Mom had confessed to DH way, way back when they were married that she had feelings for Stepdad (then Best Friend), but at the time DH thought it had gotten resolved.

Also, brief backstory, the marriage counselor that DH and I see is officially a pastoral counselor and chose to let his license go so that he could practice how he liked. Which works for us. MC way, way back worked with Stepdad at/after his divorce, then with DH/Mom on theirs. Yeah, small world. Anyway, he tried doing some mediation for all 4 of us back before we got a lawyer. He had an opportunity to talk with just Stepdad at some point, and MC shared with us a few years ago what he said -- Stepdad was telling MC all about this single mom at his work, and he just really cared about her, and wanted to help her, and support her, and spend time with her, etc. Basically having an emotional thing with this woman. MC called him out on it but apparently Stepdad could not (or would not) process what he was doing. MC then told us "this is what you're up against... someone who doesn't see the reality about themselves".

Stepdad had a married brother living in town and the two of them were very close. Some kind of rift happened ~5+ years ago, and Brother+Wife moved out of state and aren't really mentioned any more. Both Brother+Wife and Stepdad+Mom were in the same friend group as another Couple Friend pair, who now live 2 blocks from Mom & Stepdad. The wife in Couple Friend tutors SD15 in an academic subject. SD15 refers to Couple Friend Wife (CFW) as "my third mom". Couple Friend Husband (CFH) has struck me more and more as kind of a non-person, in the sense of always fading into the background.

Last Christmas, we picked up the kids at Mom's and commented on their nice tree. Mom said that they had all gone out with Couple Friends to get the tree, "and then Stepdad and CFW kept hiking for a while, the rest of us went back to the car". It seemed weird (a) to happen and (b) to bring up, but whatever.

SD15 has commented on how super close Stepdad, Mom, and CFW are; sometimes with admiration, and other times she seems to get that Stepdad's "price of admission" to be his friend is total emotional disclosure/intimacy. She doesn't always like that.

The other day we were driving around town and I saw Stepdad and CFW walking arm in arm together, with nobody else. I don't think the kids saw them. I commented on this later to DH, and DH was like, "yeah, it's weird, especially because I heard that the reason why Stepdad's Brother moved away was because he had had a fling with CFW, and then the rift between Stepdad and Brother was about the fling".

...

First of all:     

Secondly: I don't really know. I think I just need a space to get all this out here.

In a way, it's not like it's "surprising". We talk here all the time about "if you don't look at yourself after a relationship breaks, and work on yourself, you will bring the same patterns to your next relationship". So that isn't surprising... but it's just so blatant, and the kids are exposed to it. And it's packaged or marketed as "sophisticated friendship" or "true intimacy" or something advanced and progressive and SO hip and totally cool. Like, marriage between two people... well, we all know that's for squares.

And I think Stepdad can also justify himself because "he's not like his dad, HE isn't leaving the family, in fact HE is SAVING the family from DH who left". And yet he's out doing stuff that sure looks like "well, technically you still live in the same house as Mom, as if that's the same as not leaving emotionally".

Neither of the kids have mentioned anything specifically, except for now and then SD15's comments. All I can hope is that DH and I show them something different.

[kells76]

I think this is just a vent, as there's not much we can do about it. But it's weird and uncomfortable enough that there really isn't anyone in real life I can share it with (besides DH).

Brief backstory, the kids' mom's current husband (Stepdad) used to be DH's best friend way, way back. But, when DH and Mom started having marriage issues, they asked him to help them work stuff out (he had just gone through his own divorce and DH believed he would have tools to help them). Stepdad's own dad had left the family (or so the story goes) when Stepdad was an early teen, so Stepdad took Mom's side in the divorce. They started seeing each other during the separation and were engaged 3 months after DH/Mom's divorce was final. And, apparently, according to DH, Mom had confessed to DH way, way back when they were married that she had feelings for Stepdad (then Best Friend), but at the time DH thought it had gotten resolved.

Also, brief backstory, the marriage counselor that DH and I see is officially a pastoral counselor and chose to let his license go so that he could practice how he liked. Which works for us. MC way, way back worked with Stepdad at/after his divorce, then with DH/Mom on theirs. Yeah, small world. Anyway, he tried doing some mediation for all 4 of us back before we got a lawyer. He had an opportunity to talk with just Stepdad at some point, and MC shared with us a few years ago what he said -- Stepdad was telling MC all about this single mom at his work, and he just really cared about her, and wanted to help her, and support her, and spend time with her, etc. Basically having an emotional thing with this woman. MC called him out on it but apparently Stepdad could not (or would not) process what he was doing. MC then told us "this is what you're up against... someone who doesn't see the reality about themselves".

Stepdad had a married brother living in town and the two of them were very close. Some kind of rift happened ~5+ years ago, and Brother+Wife moved out of state and aren't really mentioned any more. Both Brother+Wife and Stepdad+Mom were in the same friend group as another Couple Friend pair, who now live 2 blocks from Mom & Stepdad. The wife in Couple Friend tutors SD15 in an academic subject. SD15 refers to Couple Friend Wife (CFW) as "my third mom". Couple Friend Husband (CFH) has struck me more and more as kind of a non-person, in the sense of always fading into the background.

Last Christmas, we picked up the kids at Mom's and commented on their nice tree. Mom said that they had all gone out with Couple Friends to get the tree, "and then Stepdad and CFW kept hiking for a while, the rest of us went back to the car". It seemed weird (a) to happen and (b) to bring up, but whatever.

SD15 has commented on how super close Stepdad, Mom, and CFW are; sometimes with admiration, and other times she seems to get that Stepdad's "price of admission" to be his friend is total emotional disclosure/intimacy. She doesn't always like that.

The other day we were driving around town and I saw Stepdad and CFW walking arm in arm together, with nobody else. I don't think the kids saw them. I commented on this later to DH, and DH was like, "yeah, it's weird, especially because I heard that the reason why Stepdad's Brother moved away was because he had had a fling with CFW, and then the rift between Stepdad and Brother was about the fling".

...

First of all:     

Secondly: I don't really know. I think I just need a space to get all this out here.

In a way, it's not like it's "surprising". We talk here all the time about "if you don't look at yourself after a relationship breaks, and work on yourself, you will bring the same patterns to your next relationship". So that isn't surprising... but it's just so blatant, and the kids are exposed to it. And it's packaged or marketed as "sophisticated friendship" or "true intimacy" or something advanced and progressive and SO hip and totally cool. Like, marriage between two people... well, we all know that's for squares.

And I think Stepdad can also justify himself because "he's not like his dad, HE isn't leaving the family, in fact HE is SAVING the family from DH who left". And yet he's out doing stuff that sure looks like "well, technically you still live in the same house as Mom, as if that's the same as not leaving emotionally".

Neither of the kids have mentioned anything specifically, except for now and then SD15's comments. All I can hope is that DH and I show them something different.

[livednlearned]

Ew.

Is that one big ball of no boundaries or what.

That moment in the car when you saw them musta been a doozy. Do you get the sense that step dad would do that in front of the kids? Meaning, does he care they might see him?

Or is this so boundary-less that the kids' mom might know this is happening and accepts it?

Either way, wow.

Step dad seems to be playing out both roles of persecutor and rescuer in his FOO simultaneously.

[kells76]

Is that one big ball of no boundaries or what.

You must be asking a rhetorical question  , but the answer is Yes, Yes it most certainly is.

That moment in the car when you saw them musta been a doozy.

I did a double take (but covertly) and waited to hear if the kids said anything. I am super grateful that I did not say anything at the time -- not to hide it from the kids or whatever, but just to have time to process. I am sort of a divine determinist, so I am looking at this as "I was shown this for a reason". Not in the sense of "Now I must hurry to figure out what to do with this info", but "seeing this was not a meaningless, random accident". How can I use the information I've been given in the most responsible way possible.

Do you get the sense that step dad would do that in front of the kids? Meaning, does he care they might see him?

That's sort of the pivotal question for me.

I am 50/50 on it. Based on what MC said, it's entirely possible that Stepdad has absolutely no self reflection in this area and the concept that this could be wrong, damaging, inappropriate, etc, isn't in his universe. He may be so wrapped up in his role of "heroic, emotionally sophisticated supporter" that he's blind to everything else.

Or, this has all been pitched to the kids as "normal friendship", and so it's out in the open. I don't know.

Or is this so boundary-less that the kids' mom might know this is happening and accepts it?

If I had BPD, and was married to Stepdad (I can barely type that  ), it would drive me absolutely crazy.

But I think both Mom and Stepdad have painted themselves into corners with their dogmas.

Mom says words about being a modern, liberated feminist. Whenever they're in the car together, she's the one driving. She is kind of obsessed with single moms. She's all about that "rah rah, woman power, you don't need a man, sisters march together" kind of rhetoric.

Stepdad's self-image is about being amazingly supportive of women, just caring deeply and truly about women, being progressive, going to the right rallies, having the correct signs in the yard, etc.

So, Stepdad can both "support" Mom in her "I don't need a man" feminism by flattering her: "You're so strong, you can do it, you're amazing, I'm posting love letters to you on the front door [true]", but then he can also reap the benefits of that -- if Mom doesn't need a man, and Stepdad just supports all women... then he can spread his emotional intimacy around to all kinds of women, and on paper, both he and Mom are OK with that.

They are both into "intellectual sophistication", too -- it's always Derrida this, Foucault that, etc. If anyone else here has read some backstory on Foucault, there's a lonely, broken (and profoundly arrogant) man, but you wouldn't necessarily know it from his words, only his actions -- always looking for a more exhilarating sexual/relational high, but cloaking it in edgy philosophical terms of "limit experiences" and "normalization" and stuff. I once heard Foucault's deal described as "arrogance and mystification" and that is exactly Stepdad.

Either way, wow.

Yeah. If we hadn't already been through so much other completely out there stuff (any old timers here remember... The Art Show?), then my jaw would probably drop a little more. But yeah... I mean, what can you even say.

Step dad seems to be playing out both roles of persecutor and rescuer in his FOO simultaneously.

110% yes, with the modifier "heroic" on both of them

He's both "heroically correct" and superior to his father and to DH, and "heroically rescuing" his mom and the kids' mom. He also "heroically correctly" rescues other needy women with his inappropriate emotional intimacy.

Interestingly, Stepdad did nothing but validate (but the "fake" kind) his first wife -- mostly, I suspect, to prop up his image of himself as "the emotionally intelligent, supportive one". She may have been a foil for his need to act out being supportive. Anyway, after they divorced, she married a woman, for what it's worth.

[Cat Familiar]

A big EWWWWW! from me too.

Part of that is because of the milieu I inhabited with my ex husband where people were dressing up infidelity as some vaunted exploration of limitation and openness. The phoniness annoyed me then and I’ve got a trigger about it now.

I don’t buy it being an innocent lack of self reflection. The dude is a playa in my opinion.

[EyesUp]

"it's always Derrida this, Foucault that" <- made my day.

We nons do try to construct our personal panopticons to manage our Bs, don't we?

With that in mind, if you're ok to sit on this and continue to observe all involved, it's probably to your benefit - vs. taking any quick action.

[GaGrl]

Ewww, from here also.

And yes, I remember the art show...talk about lack of boundaries.

It's really an emotional soup.

[stolencrumbs]

it's always Derrida this, Foucault that, etc.

Ha! Very rarely does something here touch on my actual area of expertise, but here we are. I have a Ph.D. in philosophy. I've taught philosophy for 20 years. I promise you, with near 100% certainty, that if they are name-dropping Derrida and Foucault, they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Dropping either of those two names, especially Derrida, is a conversation-ender for me. It somehow gives me a much clearer picture of mom and stepdad. Just...I don't know...lololololololololol. Seriously, among philosophers I know, those two are somewhere below Dr. Seuss on the pecking order of important and insightful thinkers.

[I Am Redeemed]

I second and third the "ew".

I think stepdad knows exactly what he's doing and the pro-feminist front is exactly that...a front to get close to and exploit women for his own purposes.

Something tells me bpd is probably in denial about stepdad and she will probably at some point catch whatever is adrift and hit the roof.

I would sit back and let it play out and then be the solid foundation that the kids can land on when/if it hits the fan.

Kids are smart and perceptive. When/if mom and step dads progressive plastic no real substance bubble bursts, stable you and DH will be there.

[livednlearned]

kells76, the art show will never be forgotten.

Ha! Very rarely does something here touch on my actual area of expertise, but here we are. I have a Ph.D. in philosophy...I promise you, with near 100% certainty, that if they are name-dropping Derrida and Foucault, they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

  this is priceless.

[GaGrl]

Ha! Very rarely does something here touch on my actual area of expertise, but here we are. I have a Ph.D. in philosophy. I've taught philosophy for 20 years. I promise you, with near 100% certainty, that if they are name-dropping Derrida and Foucault, they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Dropping either of those two names, especially Derrida, is a conversation-ender for me. It somehow gives me a much clearer picture of mom and stepdad. Just...I don't know...lololololololololol. Seriously, among philosophers I know, those two are somewhere below Dr. Seuss on the pecking order of important and insightful thinkers.

Snort! Stolencrumbs, thank you for The Best Comment of the Month...I laughed out loud. And I needed a good laugh.

[worriedStepmom]

I would sit back and let it play out and then be the solid foundation that the kids can land on when/if it hits the fan.

Kids are smart and perceptive. When/if mom and step dads progressive plastic no real substance bubble bursts, stable you and DH will be there.

I second this.

Mom and stepdad's relationship (or his potential inability to keep it in his pants) is only your business insofar as it affects the kids.

You and H can use this potential information to prepare how you would support the kids if mom and stepdad's relationship implodes.  But there's not really much else you can and should do, other than continue to show the kids what a good, solid marriage looks like.

My girls are at the same age as yours, and we talk a lot about choosing a partner.  We watch a lot of movies and talk about whether we'd date that character based on how he/she treated their partner in the movie.  (Legally Blonde seemed to be the BEST for getting across the message that changing yourself for someone else doesn't work.)

[kells76]

if you're ok to sit on this and continue to observe all involved, it's probably to your benefit - vs. taking any quick action.

sit back and let it play out and then be the solid foundation that the kids can land on

use this potential information to prepare how you would support the kids if mom and stepdad's relationship implodes

Yeah. I'm on the same page as you guys that the "purpose" of this information ISN'T to be like "Hey kids, guess what I saw the other day..."
It's more a heads up to DH and I that there may be "rumbling" in their lives coming up. So, it's a gift that helps us adults prepare for a possibility, versus ammo to get the kids on our side. If I hate how Mom uses information as a lever of power, then why would I do the same thing.

So... time to wait and see.

[kells76]

people were dressing up infidelity as some vaunted exploration of limitation and openness. The phoniness annoyed me

Yes. I think part of what drives me batty is -- if you're so progressive, and sophisticated, and OK with infidelity, then why do you have to repackage it as something good? I mean, if seeing unfaithfulness as immoral is so square and bigoted... then why not celebrate your immorality? Why do you have to put this "but it's actually POSITIVE and WHOLESOME and HEALTHY" cover over it? Just freakin' own what you do. There is very limited sense in which I respect Hells Angels for that -- they didn't attempt to reframe their violence as "but it's actually GOOD", they openly celebrated their wickedness ("I'm bad to the bone"). I completely disagree with making one's life purpose to celebrate evil doings, and yet, at the same time, they at least didn't pretend to be doing something they weren't.(This is not an argument for infidelity or for doing wrong; rather, an argument against... IDK, not sure if it's technically hypocrisy, but the "reframe" of evil as good).

I chatted with DH about this again last night, and he said that Stepdad has always seen himself as on another plane/level... that he's so superior, that the rules for most people don't apply to him. Not that he's in a psychosis of "I am actually a deity" (but hey, maybe he is? I don't even know any more), but functionally, yeah, he doesn't see himself as bound by the "rules for mortals". He is SO special and SO unique and SO insightful, that he oughtn't be constrained by "how little people live".

And, those in his orbit are "blessed" by also being raised up by him to be "above" the normal rules. So, Couple Friend Wife, by virtue (  ) of being drawn up into his orbit, also gets to have the rules not apply to her. "Normal" people have rules for friendship that are different than rules for marriage... "special" "advanced" people aren't oppressed by those rules. How do you know if you're special? If Stepdad accepts you into his orbit.

Yay... that's what the kids are learning.

[kells76]

Ha! Very rarely does something here touch on my actual area of expertise, but here we are. I have a Ph.D. in philosophy. I've taught philosophy for 20 years. I promise you, with near 100% certainty, that if they are name-dropping Derrida and Foucault, they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Dropping either of those two names, especially Derrida, is a conversation-ender for me. It somehow gives me a much clearer picture of mom and stepdad. Just...I don't know...lololololololololol. Seriously, among philosophers I know, those two are somewhere below Dr. Seuss on the pecking order of important and insightful thinkers.

Good to hear from you, stolencrumbs!

One memorable  (wow, I'm using that emoji a LOT in this thread) conversation DH and I had with Stepdad was a few years ago at Stepdad's birthday (back when we tried to do that stuff together, for the kids). He and DH got to talking, I was overhearing it, and Stepdad was like "DH, I just respect and care about you so much, what can I do to make things better?" The gist was "I'll do anything you want [because I'm that kind of guy]". DH said "Stop calling the girls your kids". Stepdad was like "Of course, totally, I'll do that, it's just that it's my kids' emotional reality that blah, blah blah". At that moment DH and I stood up and said "We're done."

It's like he literally cannot hear, process, or integrate the words coming out of his own mouth. There is no continuity, no rationality, only perpetual, momentary "emotional reality". And the words coming out of his mouth are so sophisticated, progressive, correct, intellectual, that he snows the people around him. Of course, for adults, it's different, because we like the taste of whatever propaganda we already want to believe, so for his orbiters, they're lapping up the "you're beyond special... you're not like the rest of normal people..." stuff because that's what they already want to be true about themselves.

With the kids, it's perverse and evil to pull them into his orbit by feeding them comfortable-feeling toxicity like that.

Same with Mom. Back before I knew more (like not to JADE), younger SD wanted to come over more but older SD didn't. I was like, So if SD15 (now, but like SD7 then) doesn't want to come over, we should "listen to her", but if SD5 wants to come over... she can't? And Mom literally said "Logic has nothing to do with it." Sure wish I'd "listened to her words"  as she told me exactly what she was about.

...

It somehow gives me a much clearer picture of mom and stepdad. Just...I don't know...lololololololololol.

Yeah... saying all the right phrases, all the "correct" books on the shelf RIGHTATTHEFRONTDOORSOYOUCANSEETHEMRIGHTAWAY, drunk on their own sophistication, and -- interestingly -- always trying to move to a milieu where they can occupy the position of "most insightful". They move away from any group or milieu where there is a chance of legitimate challenge to their perceived authority.

those two are somewhere below Dr. Seuss on the pecking order of important and insightful thinkers

Mom/Stepdad are into the appearance, rather than the difficult and uncomfortable content, of insight.

[livednlearned]

I so completely understand the way you're describing Stepdad. My first serious longterm relationship was with a guy who sounds so similar to him.

Ex BF's narcissism was tangled up with resisting anything that seemed status quo, unless it benefited him.

We did things like go on hiking trips with his ex GF and her husband, and listen to them talk through their most intimate marital issues (the husband, who was a counselor, spent the night in bed with their friend, but hey, they didn't have intercourse), meanwhile ex GF needed to express her feelings about my BF holding hands with me, which he didn't do when they were together blah blah blah. If there's such a thing as barely boundaries, that's how it felt.

And ex BF was definitely a player, not just for women but also for having *cool* people in his life, especially people who were renown for something alternative or outdoor/athletic or spiritual. There seemed to be a lot of trust funds.

It felt like one big long gaslight designed to wear down my values until I believed I was the least cool person on the planet.

Yay... that's what the kids are learning.

How much of those boundaries/values influence them versus what you and H represent?

[kells76]

ex BF was definitely a player, not just for women but also for having *cool* people in his life, especially people who were renown for something alternative or outdoor/athletic or spiritual.

That rings true... there's always a "flavor of the month" vibe to the people orbiting Mom/Stepdad, and the ones they "collect" are like (forgive me, but this is how it seems) diversity bingo. There's the activist single mom, the trans immigrant teacher, the gay foreign couple, the local political mover/shaker family, etc etc etc. Everyone has to have a "thing", it seems, to be friends with them.

Interestingly, there was some kind of spat between the gay foreign couple and the political family, and it seemed that the couple "won"... but SD12 is tight friends with the political fam's daughter (who is refreshingly normal, all things considered), so my hope is that the kids can stay friends with whoever they want to, regardless of any entry/exit to/from orbit.

...

How much of those boundaries/values influence them versus what you and H represent?

I don't know, and that's hard. When SD15 gets activated, she'll talk like Mom/Stepdad, both in terms of form (defensive, word snow, no compromise, incomplete thoughts, etc) and content (lots of FAR out there social/relational ideas), but if she's at baseline, she's a little more open to reason and can see other points of view. She's not dating anyone and has an unrequited (AFAIK) crush on the one friend she has left (a girl). SD12 had a falling out with the one crush she had (also a girl, also sister of SD15's crush) and hasn't indicated any other crush-type relational interest. SD12 is wanting to make more friends and has reached out to a couple of kids at school via email.

SD12 gets the idea of "toxic friends" because her best friend has a "toxic friend" -- jealous, petty, not able to "share friends", etc. So, I use that a lot to talk about relational stuff. Like, toxic friend probably feels pretty empty inside, yet instead of dealing with that healthily, she brings others down instead.

So, for now, it seems like both kids get the idea that friends can be shared, but romantic relations are different (i.e., neither has expressed any idea of "I can have two crushes at once and that's fine"). SD15 struggled with the concept that marriage sends a message to the other person that you are the most important person in the world to me. She seemed to struggle with how could divorce and remarriage work with that, and I didn't have a good answer, except that divorce is a sad reality. It's possible that the divorce versus Stepdad's antics will be more formative for her.

What'll be hard for SD12 is that she's eating up all the "in the orbit" attention she's getting from Stepdad. SD15 can do OK without it, but SD12 is all about that, so any kind of disagreement or moving to a more appropriate/less over-the-top emotional connection will probably feel like a withdrawal.

The kids see DH and I do a lot together, or, if we do stuff apart, it's not with anyone who could be a romantic interest. Our MC's wife describes it as "telegraphing that you are VERY MARRIED". So, the kids don't see me hang out with just a guy, and don't see DH hang out with just a female friend. My hope is that the vibe the kids get from DH and I is "if I'm married, why would I even be interested in emotional/romantic attention from someone else".

[Notwendy]

Hi Kells,

I read your story and my reaction is that step dad is more than just a player, he gets a big ego boost from "rescuing" women and then having them be so grateful to him. This is a source of ego supply and it's how he got involved with the girls' mother in the first place. This might also be why the drama between your families persists- he can continue to side with her as rescuer whenever there is conflict. This is his pattern. Loyalty probably doesn't play into this. Not only did he get involved with a married woman to begin with ( girl's mom) apparently he doesn't see the impact of that being his best friend's wife. Don't they use the term "being a snake" for that? Now it seems he's getting an ego boost with someone else- but I think that's the way he is.

Since this couple tends to enjoy being seen as cool and trendy- forgive my imagination here- but if they are accepting of all kinds of arrangements than polyamory may not be out of consideration for them. It's not my own personal choice, but it is a choice some people make. If this is the case, then I am not sure that there's anything you can do about what happens when the girls are with them. You can certainly set the example in your marriage that you want them to see. I can understand your feelings about this. I give this guy an eeeewwww but somehow his wife and the CFW seem to like him  

[livednlearned]

if they are accepting of all kinds of arrangements than polyamory may not be out of consideration for them. It's not my own personal choice, but it is a choice some people make

I had a friend who was polyamorous and remember her saying that people had to have better than average boundaries (all parties) for things to be conflict-free.

That wouldn't bode well for Step dad/Mom and by extension the girls (then kells76 and H) 

[empath]

it's always Derrida this, Foucault that

Well...  of course...  those philosophers didn't like being constrained to the boundaries of logic or words

[khibomsis]

Laughed my head off at Stolencrumbs comments on Derrida and Foucault At first I thought it was just my stupidity that I didn't understand them. Then I realized, no, it is because they actually don't make sense. For light relief, Kells  ask creepy SD to explain a page or two to you. Th funny side helps get us through the strain.

[Notwendy]

Livedandlearn- it doesn't sound like either of these two have boundaries, I was just suggesting this was their way of rationalizing their behavior in a way that aligns with their self image.

In fact, if he's constantly seeking this kind of "supply" the relationship may not go well.

It's unfortunate that the girls are exposed to this relationship drama but I am not sure there's much for Kells to control other than to live the example she wants to be. I think children can see the difference. I know it was different between being at home, staying with relatives, and my friends' houses. I could sense stability and it felt comfortable.

They are going to set their own comfort levels in relationships. I would encourage you to continue to validate the girls' feelings and that they can be true to themselves. I think the best you can do is let them experience your example.

[kells76]

Thank you all for bearing with my venting... really needed a place to just let it out. I didn't think there'd be any problem-solving to do, but the more I read the responses, the more I think this is part of my core fear:

How much of those boundaries/values influence them versus what you and H represent?

I fear that they will internalize a view of marriage that is perversely, toxically unhealthy -- that marriage is a way to have someone meet your needs, but also, irrationally, at the same time, that of course one person can't meet all your needs, so it's totally fair to go to different people to get different needs met.

As opposed to: marriage is a way of communicating to one person that they are the most special person in the world to you, that how you specifically relate to them you don't with anyone else, that they deserve to be learned and known, that marriage is a classroom for growth -- as you see that you fall short of meeting this person's needs, how can you care about them by growing, and how can you give them mercy for not meeting all your needs. That marriage is NOT about getting all your needs met -- it's about growing up.

And even as I type all that, I know that having unhealthy, unboundaried romantic relationships happens to all of us at some point (I remember being 19...), and life isn't about always having "perfect, healthy relationships all the time", but it's about what we do with what we learn from those unhealthy relationships.

But then, swinging back, it's like -- OK, anyone can, if they want to have open eyes, learn and grow and change towards the better. But, if the picture of marriage you're starting from is "marriage is just for logistics, and I deserve to have all my needs met even with different people at once, and they are there to make me feel good"... that's like starting the race with your legs tied together. It's just such a disadvantage and sets you up not just for pain and suffering, but damage, I guess.

Maybe even more the core of my fear is that the kids will propagate the dysfunction... that it'll become a recurring cycle that they can't break, that they pass down.

I keep arguing against myself here, though! Because then, I know that it's not like "if I can just explain better relationships in words, they yay! they're "healthier" and everything will be OK". I do know that it's the unspoken modeled stuff that is more impactful. So they will have to face, as they grow up, that at Mom's house, spouses and friends were treated the same, and at Dad's house, spouses and friends were related to differently.

[kells76]

...he gets a big ego boost from "rescuing" women and then having them be so grateful to him. This is a source of ego supply and it's how he got involved with the girls' mother in the first place. This might also be why the drama between your families persists- he can continue to side with her as rescuer whenever there is conflict. This is his pattern. Loyalty probably doesn't play into this. Not only did he get involved with a married woman to begin with ( girl's mom) apparently he doesn't see the impact of that being his best friend's wife. Don't they use the term "being a snake" for that? Now it seems he's getting an ego boost with someone else- but I think that's the way he is.

I think you're spot on. I remember being really upset when Stepdad would accuse DH of being "patriarchal". Now that I have the tool of "what I say about you is really describing me", though, I can see that it's Stepdad who uses women as objects to meet his needs. I mean, how much more stereotypically patriarchal can you get than getting "high" on women being "sobbing gratefully to you for your heroic rescue"?

That's an interesting insight that loyalty isn't a factor in any of this. It only looks like loyalty if we don't look too closely.

...if they are accepting of all kinds of arrangements than polyamory may not be out of consideration for them. It's not my own personal choice, but it is a choice some people make. If this is the case, then I am not sure that there's anything you can do about what happens when the girls are with them. You can certainly set the example in your marriage that you want them to see. I can understand your feelings about this. I give this guy an eeeewwww but somehow his wife and the CFW seem to like him

Ugh, and yes, I need to be ready for "radical acceptance" if that is the situation in reality. I disagree with it being anywhere near healthy and I think it's beyond toxic, and yet, I can also see that in real life, it is something people choose. You're right, all DH and I can do is live out our own values.

I suspect the CFW has unresolved issues of her own.

[kells76]

Well...  of course...  those philosophers didn't like being constrained to the boundaries of logic or words

Empath: and what better way to justify one's own preferred lifestyle than finding a sophisticated-sounding philosophy to back it up?

The kids' mom rarely reads the parenting plan and doesn't see it as holding nay weight. But, now she has a philosophical rationalization for it -- the PP is just "oppressive language" or whatever.

Boy oh boy, all I need to do to have a comfortable life is find some bald European dude in a turtleneck, buy his book, learn his lingo, and shame and demean anyone who disagrees with his/my philosophy! Woo hoo, easy street here I come!

[kells76]

At first I thought it was just my stupidity that I didn't understand them. Then I realized, no, it is because they actually don't make sense.

Right there with you, khibomsis. I sometimes doubt my capacity to understand, though it was more often in the past. The older I get, the more I have your insight, too -- it's not me, it's an irrational, incoherent philosophy. I can see discrepancy and I can call it out as total BS. So, it's nice to build that confidence a little more.

I haven't read Thomas Reid but I've read some brief summaries of his work. In a nutshell, he was a common-sense philosopher who opposed "armchair philosophy". His deal was "yeah, anyone can have ideas about how the world works, but how do we really live our lives?" I.e., sure, we can talk all day about how "we can't really get in touch with reality", and "what we think is real is just a perception", etc... but the same people who make those assertions also look both ways before they cross the street. So, a real philosophy is one that we live out every day, that is in touch with how we actually live life. Seems right up your alley.

[kells76]

Livedandlearn- it doesn't sound like either of these two have boundaries, I was just suggesting this was their way of rationalizing their behavior in a way that aligns with their self image.
In fact, if he's constantly seeking this kind of "supply" the relationship may not go well.

I agree; once again, it's "what philosophy or trendy movement can I find to justify the wants that I already have, but am tacitly or subconsciously aware aren't healthy". Stepdad desires to have women "below" him feeding his ego, but needs an accepted rationalization for it, because at some level, perhaps he knows it's messed up. So, voila, he's a feminist, and the ego boosts he extracts from women are just because he gives so much to them.

It's unfortunate that the girls are exposed to this relationship drama but I am not sure there's much for Kells to control other than to live the example she wants to be. I think children can see the difference. I know it was different between being at home, staying with relatives, and my friends' houses. I could sense stability and it felt comfortable.

That's the hope -- I think the girls do feel it, even though they don't always say it. Right now the difference that SD12 feels is more uncomfortable (getting to the age where she sees it more and is processing it), and the difference that SD15 feels is comfortable (she sees our house as peaceful) but guilt-ridden ("I shouldn't enjoy being here").

They are going to set their own comfort levels in relationships. I would encourage you to continue to validate the girls' feelings and that they can be true to themselves. I think the best you can do is let them experience your example.

That's truly all we can do.

[stolencrumbs]

Empath: and what better way to justify one's own preferred lifestyle than finding a sophisticated-sounding philosophy to back it up?

The kids' mom rarely reads the parenting plan and doesn't see it as holding nay weight. But, now she has a philosophical rationalization for it -- the PP is just "oppressive language" or whatever.

Boy oh boy, all I need to do to have a comfortable life is find some bald European dude in a turtleneck, buy his book, learn his lingo, and shame and demean anyone who disagrees with his/my philosophy! Woo hoo, easy street here I come!

I recommend getting really into Lacan. He's European and inscrutable, though I think he had fabulous hair. But you then can be all "I think SD is just a victim of the libidinal economy, and you guys seem to be occupying the lower-case other perspective instead of the upper-case Other perspective. You'd perhaps understand more if you embraced more A and less a."

[livednlearned]

I think SD is just a victim of the libidinal economy, and you guys seem to be occupying the lower-case other perspective instead of the upper-case Other perspective. You'd perhaps understand more if you embraced more A and less a."

I love this thread 

kells76, the different values/different household thing would worry me, too, not to mention following in the relationship footsteps.

Do you have a sense whether Stepdad is actively in the process of pursuing a fresh rescuer relationship with the CFW?

Like you mentioned earlier, it's odd that BPDmom commented on CFW and Stepdad hiking ahead together.

If BPDmom were to discover something not adding up, any ideas on how she would handle it?

How would the girls handle it?

That would be my worry. Being the catcher's mitt for two devastated girls going through a deep gaslight-y betrayal starring Stepdad.

[Notwendy]

Spending time with more stable role models didn't prevent the impact of growing up with a BPD mother, but I do believe it lessened that impact. While I know ideally you wish the girls were not exposed to the drama in their mother's home, there's not much you can do about their time there. However, your role modeling and the stable unconditional love you provide when they are there, I think, will have a large impact on them.

My focus on them would be to validate their feelings, encourage their own boundaries. Be an empathetic ear if they want to talk about relationships and feelings. It's good that they tell you about their crushes. In the not so far off future they may bring a special person over or talk about a relationship. If you remain a safe person for them to talk to, that will have an impact.

How will they handle it if they realize step dad is "seeing" someone? That's on him if they are upset with him. Their reaction is theirs. Without triangulating, if they say something, maybe direct the conversation to " how do you feel about that".

[formflier]

Snort! Stolencrumbs, thank you for The Best Comment of the Month...I laughed out loud. And I needed a good laugh.

I had a really busy and distracting weekend...tiring.  I had seen lots of replies to this thread..so figured I would get to it when I had time.

Massive SNORT and belly hurting laugh when stolencrumbs provided some professional context to spotlighting bullshizers...

Love it..!


As to the values piece.  I'm fan of being deliberate about telling my kids why I've decided to do things in certain ways.  Name the value...name where that value came to you from.  Name the benefits accrued from that value.

Note...nowhere in here am I making a "I'm right and they are wrong" argument..or even a "my values are better/worse argument".


Best,

FF