Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 07:36:45 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
84
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Dazed and confused  (Read 848 times)
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« on: April 15, 2021, 08:50:27 PM »

Where do I start...  it's been a 36 year roller coaster ride that has jumped the tracks.

Firstly, I have a question.  Is BPD something that progresses/gets worse over time?  Haven't read anything yet that addresses that.

So, up until a week ago, the only diagnosis we were going on was bipolar disorder.  Initially, around 2004-5, it was considered bipolar 2 with mixed episodes and ultra rapid cycling.  Recently the diagnosis seemed to have been revised to just bipolar 1.  I haven't been involved in her care the past 3-4 years as much as previously as she seemed to have found some level of wellness about that time, when they'd been done some med changes.  About a year ago, happened across some notes she'd made of a psych appointment and had written Borderline Personality Disorder.  Of course, I didn't want to make a big deal out of it but she seemed angry I asked about it, and insisted and continues to insist that the psych was merely indicating that she seemed to display a few "crossover" traits of BPD.  I accepted that at the time.

I'll also mention that she also gets counselling and had been recommended to order a Dialetical Behaviour Therapy workbook.  Alas, it was never used.  Ended up on her desk and then covered over in paper eventually.

Fast forward a few months to October and she discovered I'd cheated on her the past while (please don't judge, I'm only just realizing in the past week, yes after 36 years, that my wife is probably as much BPD/NPD as she is bipolar).  I lost myself along the way.  It was against my beliefs and values to do so.  This was poor decisions on my part but we'd had a struggle for 12 years mostly focused on her mental health, which included being emotionally detached, withholding affection and a sexless marriage.  The rage and abuse I took for that was something I'd not seen before to that level.  After two months of that she asked for a separation and I managed to get her to slow things down and agree to a separation but continue living together on mostly separate floors of the house.  In March, after almost 6 months it was becoming abundantly clear that I had to move out as things weren't much better, she'd still rage and abuse only not as frequently or as severely.  Part of me accepted that I deserved all that as my punishment for cheating.  I'm crushed and devastated that my most important relationship in the world has gotten to this point.  I'm not perfect by any means but I'm starting to realize I didn't cause much of the problems in our marriage over the years.

I moved out April 1st.

I'm reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells" right now and am only finished Chapter 5.  Oh.  My.  God.  I'm overwhelmed.

The only reason I've finally accepted this as a huge part of her is that a week ago, her only remaining high school friend reached out to me and accepted my side of the story, and let me know that she'd also been frustrated with their friendship, off and on, since high school.  She doesn't see the friendship as solidly as my wife does.  By comparing notes of experiences and information my wife shared with both of us independently, and both of us reading the book, we've come to the agreement that this her most serious problem.  I do believe the bipolar is there too.  She's often "joked" that she has multiple personalities and now I see she's actually right.

I'll also add that a big part of us arriving at this conclusion is her finally giving me closure on something my wife was doing back in 2005, in the midst of a bipolar manic phase, and clearly hypersexual, she was having at least 2 affairs that the friend was told about by my wife.  Some of these details did come out in '07, I knew of one that was supposedly emotional only - it wasn't, and I deeply suspected the other more serious one, confronted my wife with that back at the time it all came out, and she's denied it vehemently ever since. It has come up from time to time.  We were having marital difficulties back then too, and separated for 3 weeks at the time as well.  The affairs at the time seem to have been efforts at receiving affirmation that she was seeking due to our marital difficulties.  For 2+ years I knew this was going on behind my back and begged her to stop.  Most of these were men from work, so I'd go off to work at a demanding job knowing and dreading what she was doing at her work.   My counsellor says I likely have PTSD from that.

Clearly she is splitting.  She sees no good in me whatsoever anymore, despite the fact I've been "taking care" of her since she cycled into depression in 2008, bedridden mostly for 3 years, then gradual improvement since. The reality though is I've done the bulk of all the mundane, routine tasks and chores around the house, pretty much since we married.  Ran a household, raised a family (she was involved in the emotional side of childrearing, I did the rest), had a demanding career that I ended up losing, mostly because I disclosed wife's mental illness and challenges, and they weren't supportive after a year, started to shove me out the door.  Had to recreate myself a new career.  All while caring for a "sick" wife.

To be honest, I think she's projecting her shame and guilt for her own struggles with her sexuality and the affair(s) she simply can't admit to me (and likely herself).  I mean, how hypocritical and almost sociopathic can she be to use my affair as the impetus to finally separate once and for all, when she knows she's done the exact same thing and has been denying it to me ever since.  Like, WTF.  But learning that she isn't doing it "to me".  Defense mechanism to ensure self-preservation.

She also seems to be attempting to re-write a fair bit of our history using my affairs as a means to try to paint me in a more negative light.

There are SO many more details and things I haven't touched on.  Just the major ones.

I'm only just starting my learning journey.  My initial question above was mostly the result of the fact that to me, this has been getting worse over the years, and didn't seem as pronounced earlier.  Is that possible?  Or was I blind?  Or was she just such a great manipulator she had everyone fooled but seems to be losing her ability to hide it?

So many questions.  So much more to read and learn about.

I also have to decide if it's even worth fighting for anymore.

I still love her dearly, and as I've read in the book and elsewhere, there was nothing better than the intense love between us when she is/was in positive husband mode.  I just haven't seen it now in 12+ years and I think she died then.  I can no longer hope that version of my wife ever comes back.  I just need to decide if there's enough positive left to decide to fight to stay.

I'm tired of crying.  This past week has been so tough.  I don't understand why I didn't piece this together sooner.  I'm a smart man.  My love was just so blind.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 09:01:06 PM by CrushedinPtbo » Logged
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2021, 09:18:03 PM »

I posted this in the wrong board.  Here's my very first post:

Where do I start...  it's been a 36 year roller coaster ride that has jumped the tracks.

Firstly, I have a question.  Is BPD something that progresses/gets worse over time?  Haven't read anything yet that addresses that.

So, up until a week ago, the only diagnosis we were going on was bipolar disorder.  Initially, around 2004-5, it was considered bipolar 2 with mixed episodes and ultra rapid cycling.  Recently the diagnosis seemed to have been revised to just bipolar 1.  I haven't been involved in her care the past 3-4 years as much as previously as she seemed to have found some level of wellness about that time, when they'd been done some med changes.  About a year ago, happened across some notes she'd made of a psych appointment and had written Borderline Personality Disorder.  Of course, I didn't want to make a big deal out of it but she seemed angry I asked about it, and insisted and continues to insist that the psych was merely indicating that she seemed to display a few "crossover" traits of BPD.  I accepted that at the time.

I'll also mention that she also gets counselling and had been recommended to order a Dialetical Behaviour Therapy workbook.  Alas, it was never used.  Ended up on her desk and then covered over in paper eventually.

Fast forward a few months to October and she discovered I'd cheated on her the past while (please don't judge, I'm only just realizing in the past week, yes after 36 years, that my wife is probably as much BPD/NPD as she is bipolar).  I lost myself along the way.  It was against my beliefs and values to do so.  This was poor decisions on my part but we'd had a struggle for 12 years mostly focused on her mental health, which included being emotionally detached, withholding affection and a sexless marriage.  The rage and abuse I took for that was something I'd not seen before to that level.  After two months of that she asked for a separation and I managed to get her to slow things down and agree to a separation but continue living together on mostly separate floors of the house.  In March, after almost 6 months it was becoming abundantly clear that I had to move out as things weren't much better, she'd still rage and abuse only not as frequently or as severely.  Part of me accepted that I deserved all that as my punishment for cheating.  I'm crushed and devastated that my most important relationship in the world has gotten to this point.  I'm not perfect by any means but I'm starting to realize I didn't cause much of the problems in our marriage over the years.

I moved out April 1st.

I'm reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells" right now and am only finished Chapter 5.  Oh.  My.  God.  I'm overwhelmed.

The only reason I've finally accepted this as a huge part of her is that a week ago, her only remaining high school friend reached out to me and accepted my side of the story, and let me know that she'd also been frustrated with their friendship, off and on, since high school.  She doesn't see the friendship as solidly as my wife does.  By comparing notes of experiences and information my wife shared with both of us independently, and both of us reading the book, we've come to the agreement that this her most serious problem.  I do believe the bipolar is there too.  She's often "joked" that she has multiple personalities and now I see she's actually right.

I'll also add that a big part of us arriving at this conclusion is her finally giving me closure on something my wife was doing back in 2005, in the midst of a bipolar manic phase, and clearly hypersexual, she was having at least 2 affairs that the friend was told about by my wife.  Some of these details did come out in '07, I knew of one that was supposedly emotional only - it wasn't, and I deeply suspected the other more serious one, confronted my wife with that back at the time it all came out, and she's denied it vehemently ever since. It has come up from time to time.  We were having marital difficulties back then too, and separated for 3 weeks at the time as well.  The affairs at the time seem to have been efforts at receiving affirmation that she was seeking due to our marital difficulties.  For 2+ years I knew this was going on behind my back and begged her to stop.  Most of these were men from work, so I'd go off to work at a demanding job knowing and dreading what she was doing at her work.   My counsellor says I likely have PTSD from that.

Clearly she is splitting.  She sees no good in me whatsoever anymore, despite the fact I've been "taking care" of her since she cycled into depression in 2008, bedridden mostly for 3 years, then gradual improvement since. The reality though is I've done the bulk of all the mundane, routine tasks and chores around the house, pretty much since we married.  Ran a household, raised a family (she was involved in the emotional side of childrearing, I did the rest), had a demanding career that I ended up losing, mostly because I disclosed wife's mental illness and challenges, and they weren't supportive after a year, started to shove me out the door.  Had to recreate myself a new career.  All while caring for a "sick" wife.

To be honest, I think she's projecting her shame and guilt for her own struggles with her sexuality and the affair(s) she simply can't admit to me (and likely herself).  I mean, how hypocritical and almost sociopathic can she be to use my affair as the impetus to finally separate once and for all, when she knows she's done the exact same thing and has been denying it to me ever since.  Like, WTF.  But learning that she isn't doing it "to me".  Defense mechanism to ensure self-preservation.

She also seems to be attempting to re-write a fair bit of our history using my affairs as a means to try to paint me in a more negative light.

There are SO many more details and things I haven't touched on.  Just the major ones.

I'm only just starting my learning journey.  My initial question above was mostly the result of the fact that to me, this has been getting worse over the years, and didn't seem as pronounced earlier.  Is that possible?  Or was I blind?  Or was she just such a great manipulator she had everyone fooled but seems to be losing her ability to hide it?

So many questions.  So much more to read and learn about.

I also have to decide if it's even worth fighting for anymore.

I still love her dearly, and as I've read in the book and elsewhere, there was nothing better than the intense love between us when she is/was in positive husband mode.  I just haven't seen it now in 12+ years and I think she died then.  I can no longer hope that version of my wife ever comes back.  I just need to decide if there's enough positive left to decide to fight to stay.

I'm tired of crying.  This past week has been so tough.  I don't understand why I didn't piece this together sooner.  I'm a smart man.  My love was just so blind.

Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2021, 06:47:06 AM »


Welcome

Wow...that's a roller coaster.  Please be extra kind to yourself as you start reading and learning from these boards.

To answer some of your questions...yes BPD can change over time.  It's hard for me to tell if it is time that changes it or time allows more "triggering" experiences to happen..which makes things worse.

Also...it's not uncommon for people to have BPD and other things (comorbid).  Said another way..both can be true.

Deciding what is worth fighting for...(That is a question we all have struggled with)

Can I suggest we set that aside for now and focus on understanding these types of relationships?



What does it take?

I'd be interested in hearing your first reactions to reading that article. 

Best,

FF
Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2021, 11:21:10 AM »

First of all  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Your story is tragic, like many here. To answer some of your questions, BPD can be comorbid with other disorders, such as bipolar. As to whether it gets worse over time—it varies.

You are dealing with some of the most troubling issues of BPD: projection, lack of empathy, inability to forgive the past, splitting, hypocrisy.

It appears you have a very clear overview of who she is. What would motivate you to stay in the marriage and what would incline you to leave?
Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2021, 06:21:39 AM »

Welcome

Wow...that's a roller coaster.  Please be extra kind to yourself as you start reading and learning from these boards.

To answer some of your questions...yes BPD can change over time.  It's hard for me to tell if it is time that changes it or time allows more "triggering" experiences to happen..which makes things worse.

Also...it's not uncommon for people to have BPD and other things (comorbid).  Said another way..both can be true.

Deciding what is worth fighting for...(That is a question we all have struggled with)

Can I suggest we set that aside for now and focus on understanding these types of relationships?



What does it take?

I'd be interested in hearing your first reactions to reading that article. 

Best,

FF

Thanks for responding. Right now I'll take any support and assistance I can get. I've come to realize I've been so alone in all of this for so long.  Her and her mother have a very close relationship, yet she's clueless to all of this.  Or at least pretends to be, to me.  Sister, same story.  How can these people be so clueless.  They've all shuned me now, so trying to share this new found information would fall on deaf ears.  I'm apparently the monster...

So, read the link.  Impressions... not much different than what I've already been doing and living with for the past 12 years.  Most of it isn't new to me.  The situation might have evolved some with the worsening of the BPD, but overall I've been her "rock".  I'm coming to realize that she actually would likely have never had a stable, normal life without me or someone like me being there as a steadying influence on her.  Career (she was high functioning until around age 40), house, family.  Without me supporting and doing all that I did, she would not have been able to cope as well (stress is a definite trigger for her).

My problem seems to be that after 30 years of dealing, I burned out. Just couldn't keep it going to the same level I had.  I also didn't realize the scope of all I was dealing with, thinking it was just bipolar.  All this information and how to manage it would have been a game changer had I known.  Having said that, me burning out is now, finally, putting everything into the light and forcing her/us to deal with it.

I agree that there is no rush for me to decide whether to try to stay, or simply keep on walking.

Biggest challenge for me right now, is understanding what proper relationship boundaries even are.  I don't think we have ANY, and I'm not even sure what healthy boundaries would even look like.

And I've most certainly been protecting her from failure and the natural consequences of her actions.
Logged
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2021, 06:44:10 AM »

First of all  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Your story is tragic, like many here. To answer some of your questions, BPD can be comorbid with other disorders, such as bipolar. As to whether it gets worse over time—it varies.

You are dealing with some of the most troubling issues of BPD: projection, lack of empathy, inability to forgive the past, splitting, hypocrisy.

It appears you have a very clear overview of who she is. What would motivate you to stay in the marriage and what would incline you to leave?

Thank you for your response.  I'd like to give you my best answer to your question but I'm not there yet.  Too much info and feelings floating around in my head with no real direction to it all as yet.  Motivate me to stay... she's the mother of my kids, the love of my life and I care about her and what happens to her.  "In sickness and in health".  The fact that our lives overall hasn't been a complete train wreck, lots of good times, even during the past 12 years. 
Incline me to leave... my overall mental health and happiness.  My life becoming much less stressful and drama-free.

As I read more and more, and dig deeper, I'm not sure where she really fits. I don't much care what label is attached to her, not that important.  More important, she has deep, serious issues and needs help no matter what I want to call it.

There is so much of the info that fits and is our life, yet there is much of both sides of this (BPD/NPD) that doesn't, at all. 

Can someone have a lot of the traits but not actually be enough to be considered BPD/NPD?  Can people have "mild" cases of it, where the very worst of the behaviour isn't present, or has it just not come out yet?

She does have a lot of redeeming qualities.  At times can be the most caring person I know.  Or at least acts that way.  No issues whatsoever with her childrearing.  My kids would not look at her as a failure to them, they are really good kids (22, 27 now).  They understand she has a mental illness and couldn't be a 'traditional' mother but the love and affection, and emotional support and development were there...
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2021, 08:38:59 AM »


Yes..people can have mild traits and "just about be diagnosable"

"It" can also change over time.

I would encourage you to not focus so much on "is she or isn't she" diagnosable.  Focus instead on the behaviors and traits that you see and experience.

Boundaries are important because they can and will give you space to be you..and consider what you are going to do in the relationship.  Don't rush this.   Be deliberate about giving yourself (taking) space. 

Your pwBPD won't like it...they will try to get you "back in line".  Expect this..don't be shocked by it.

Listen..there are so many ways this can go.  Is there something you would like to focus on first?

A conversation that never gets solved...and I know that you know what I mean when I say NEVER...

Or the way she always (fill in the blank).

Let's take some small steps first!  What do you think?

Best,

FF
Logged

ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18071


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2021, 11:10:42 AM »

Cat Familiar made an insightful comment that there could be some comorbidity here.  Sometimes you can't pigeonhole someone into just one category, as many have noted, it's a spectrum of traits, issues and behaviors.

It's notable that she's been treated as bipolar for two decades yet she had some materials on BPD a year ago.

In the past insurance would often refuse to cover therapy for Borderline since for a long time it was considered an intractable disorder resistant to treatment.  So sometimes the patient would be diagnosed with Bipolar instead which did have health coverage.  (I'm not sure how prevalent that is today.)  Bipolar can be treated, it is a chemical or hormonal imbalance, however Borderline is more of a mental disorder.  Sure, meds can moderate some of the behaviors - as long as the person continues the meds - but the real answer is therapy which is applied in one's life, thinking and perceptions.  Therapies most often mentioned are DBT or CBT (Dialectical/Cognitive Behavioral Therapy).  Recovery is possible, generally taking years, but the person has to Let Go of the Denial and Blame Shifting and want to make those changes.

While we're not doctors, our collective experience has been that if the Denial, Blaming, Blame Shifting and Entitlement are not addressed and resolved, real recovery is unlikely.

Effective and strong Boundaries (<-- link to boundary articles) have been mentioned as essential. People with BPD (pwBPD) feel compelled to resist boundaries and it is generally the case that you, the person closest to the pwBPD, can't change that.  So it is up to you to intelligently determine ways for your boundaries have an effective response to the improper behaviors.  My overly simplistic example is "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."
Logged

livednlearned
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 12731



« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 12:49:05 PM »

Is BPD something that progresses/gets worse over time?

It seems like she was experiencing some degree of wellness 3-4 years ago, then a year ago you discovered her BPD dx and raised the issue with her, then last fall it came out that you had an affair.

Might her worsening condition have to do with the last two developments?

If she is going through menopause, she may also be dealing with hormonal changes. A lot can influence the symptoms or traits.

Whatever might be going on, it's painful for you both.

You mention that the rages are becoming less common and severe. How are you responding when she rages like this? Maybe you are doing something intuitively right that can be built upon.

Do you get the sense the diagnosis is new, or is it more that it's new news for you? I'm guessing that the psychiatrist probably downplayed the BPD regardless of severity, given how stigmatizing the disorder is. Plus, your care all these years has likely stabilized your wife's symptoms, as you allude to in your post.

Is your wife able to have non-rage interactions with you, even if they are short-lived?
Logged

Breathe.
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 01:27:53 PM »

Yes..people can have mild traits and "just about be diagnosable"

"It" can also change over time.

I would encourage you to not focus so much on "is she or isn't she" diagnosable.  Focus instead on the behaviors and traits that you see and experience.

Boundaries are important because they can and will give you space to be you..and consider what you are going to do in the relationship.  Don't rush this.   Be deliberate about giving yourself (taking) space. 

Your pwBPD won't like it...they will try to get you "back in line".  Expect this..don't be shocked by it.

Listen..there are so many ways this can go.  Is there something you would like to focus on first?

A conversation that never gets solved...and I know that you know what I mean when I say NEVER...

Or the way she always (fill in the blank).

Let's take some small steps first!  What do you think?

Best,

FF


Yes, all great advice.

I guess if I was going to focus on one thing, it would be how to have more effective communications with her.  Not letting her trigger me into an inappropriate response that won't help anything. 

I'd been pretty good overall at taking things and holding them in, letting resentment grow but not addressing them.  Now need to ensure I never take the bait.  Ever again. Because yes, I have a bit of an anger too, and when pushed constantly at some point in the past she would manage to hit enough of my buttons to get the response she was looking for.  I totally regret that, but the times I lashed out versus kept it in would be pretty small indeed.
Logged
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2021, 01:52:02 PM »

Cat Familiar made an insightful comment that there could be some comorbidity here.  Sometimes you can't pigeonhole someone into just one category, as many have noted, it's a spectrum of traits, issues and behaviors.

It's notable that she's been treated as bipolar for two decades yet she had some materials on BPD a year ago.

Effective and strong Boundaries (<-- link to boundary articles) have been mentioned as essential. People with BPD (pwBPD) feel compelled to resist boundaries and it is generally the case that you, the person closest to the pwBPD, can't change that.  So it is up to you to intelligently determine ways for your boundaries have an effective response to the improper behaviors.  My overly simplistic example is "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."

So maybe to clarify.  I honestly do believe the comobidity of bipolar is present.  I also believe some of the BPD/NPD traits were also present back when she got the bipolar diagnosis 16 years ago .  Just not prevalent enough and focused on enough for the psychs to land on it.  Not enough anecdotal stories that would point to it because I still hadn't figure that piece out and wouldn't for some time.  Of course, the subsequent deep depression 2008-2011 was easy to use as excuse for the emotional detachment/lack of sex.  Problem is it never reversed while and when she got well.

I will totally agree that the affairs coming out last September had ramped up her rage, and so certainly that part is explainable as far as escalation.  She did have a reason to be mad/angry, but I'd never seen it to that level.  I'd certainly seen anger previously.  Learning that most of that response was likely projection of her shame and guilt for what she did and gaslighted me about since her bipolar mania.  OK for her to cheat and gaslight, not OK for me to cheat and take responsibility for my actions.

To me, she found wellness 4 years ago and started to try to put her life back together.  However, all energy and effort went towards re-creating friendships and getting involved in activities she likes to do outside the house.  All great stuff and all things I certainly showed and verbalized support for.  I did though try to get her to start 'reconnecting' with me, as her emotional detachment, lack of affection and sexless marriage needed to be dealt with.  I should be her top priority as her husband and as her primary caregiver over the eight years prior.  In fact, I started to try to address that around 2013 gently.  More so once she was quite "well" (well for her). She also started loading up on commitments (volunteering at senior centre, all her other interests, etc... ) and sometime around mid to fall 2019 the p-doc started messing with meds again.  She has also mentioned she felt like she was having mixed episodes again around that same time.  I think because she'd increased the stress level in her life with outside commitments and activities, she started to see increase in symptoms of her various issues.  Never addressed the marital issues even though I know she discussed them at length with her counsellor.  To the point of making notes I'd found indicating a desire to re-establish a deeper connection, deal with our separate lives and come back together, even noting "sex lives".  She knew we had deep issues.  Not even spending any time on the DBT book hurt.  But everyone else and her own preferred activities ALWAYS took priority, even when I tried to have significant heart to heart talks about us.

I don't think I've mentioned that we did try marital counselling early in her recovery phase, maybe 2013-2015.  I let her choose the counsellor, but all with all 3 times we tried various counsellors (one was even a sex therapist), she went to the first meeting, didn't like what she was hearing, and refused to go back.

As far as boundaries, just starting to read about them and learn more about handling that effectively.  To give you an example, when she found out about the cheating, I gave her full access to all my online passwords for everything, even beyond social media, in order to assist with rebuilding trust.  Even though I'm out of the house, I haven't changed my passwords and at 3am this morning, Amazon sent me a text and email saying someone logged into my account...  didn't seem to have any problem with my password so I'm thinking it was her (and wouldn't be surprised, she'd been monitoring everything when I was still at home; although that can be chalked up to her wanting to keep an eye on me to ensure I was no longer stepping out, it is also a key trait I've read about).  She also caught my cheating by snooping around my computer.

If she's still checking up on me, even though she more or less is forcing the separation, what is that all about?  She says we're done.  Hasn't totally cut me off though, and we do have some conversation lately that have certainly gone normal.  We are also discussing and working on the separation agreement and that mostly has gone pretty calmly as well.  

I certainly could change all my passwords, but it doesn't bother me that she's checking, I'm not hiding anything and at this point, because I've not made any long term decision either way, don't want to do anything that might jeopardize getting back together if that's what I decide.
Logged
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2021, 02:03:53 PM »

It seems like she was experiencing some degree of wellness 3-4 years ago, then a year ago you discovered her BPD dx and raised the issue with her, then last fall it came out that you had an affair.

Might her worsening condition have to do with the last two developments?

If she is going through menopause, she may also be dealing with hormonal changes. A lot can influence the symptoms or traits.

Whatever might be going on, it's painful for you both.

You mention that the rages are becoming less common and severe. How are you responding when she rages like this? Maybe you are doing something intuitively right that can be built upon.

Do you get the sense the diagnosis is new, or is it more that it's new news for you? I'm guessing that the psychiatrist probably downplayed the BPD regardless of severity, given how stigmatizing the disorder is. Plus, your care all these years has likely stabilized your wife's symptoms, as you allude to in your post.

Is your wife able to have non-rage interactions with you, even if they are short-lived?

I did address some of your questions in my last two responses, but some I didn't...

Yes, we are at times having normal conversations without any anger.  In fact, we've not had a rage incident since early March, so I was in the house for almost a month with mostly calm (detached), and now more than half a month out.

I believe the discussion of BPD (haven't seen anything indicating discussions around NPD) with psych is new (starting around late 2019-early 2020), but think it might have come up previously in 2019 with her counsellor.  Seemed counsellor recommended the DBT workbook perhaps as a means to start working on marriage, but maybe without even mentioning the BPD as potential.  Who knows.

Yes, menopause has been going on too.

Honestly I mostly took the rage and accepted it as my punishment, just stood or sat and let her go.  There were 2 occasions I can remember though where I did end up reacting with words and anger, and one where I had to hold her so she would stop hitting me. Of course, in her mind I was the only one being physical.
Logged
Snowflake90

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 46


« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2021, 07:36:42 PM »

Sorry to hear your story. Mine is 1/6th of yours. I was married for 6 years. I'm glad I got out. There are times when I look back, but it's always for a short time. I'm very happy with my life now.
I see you talk a lot about her but very little about you.
You sound just like myself when I wanted out. I needed a very good excuse. I needed to be in the "clear". I couldn't be the villain. I had to be 100% spotless innocent. As if this was some sort of trial with a jury. Newsflash, if you leave, you'll always be the villain in her mind and in her family's mind.
You've cheated. In the past I used to think lowly of the people who cheated. Now I have much more empathy. Cheating has crossed my mind several times in the relationship due to it being sexless, just as you've described. In some form, my going to the bathroom and looking at porn videos at night when she was asleep was some sort of cheating too. People don't just wake up and say hey, I wanna cheat. My point is, there's no right and wrong. Right or wrong is the BPD game. If you hadn't cheated, she'd throw in something else. You would always be the villain. So the real question is. Are you happy in this relationship to her? You've been 36 years already. Was there improvement in her condition? As some people here have said, there's usually no "one-size-fits-all" in PD and each case can be unique. I know my wife was hopeless, despite her psychiatrist telling me BPD is the most treatable PD.
Quite some time has elapsed. No doubt you two spent a lifetime together. But is that all life has to offer you? My advice would be not to focus on who's right or wrong, but the time that still lies ahead of you and in yourself. Are you happy today? Could you be happier living a different life?
Have you been doing therapy? 36 yrs with a person with PD without your doing therapy can be very damaging to your self-esteem.
Logged
livednlearned
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 12731



« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2021, 04:02:03 PM »

we've not had a rage incident since early March, so I was in the house for almost a month with mostly calm (detached), and now more than half a month out.

During that time did she talk about the affair at all?

I'm trying to get my head around her rage about the affair followed by a period of calm. Yet still talking about separating ...

Would her medication be subduing her enough to dampen affair fury?

Sometimes I wonder how much our own guilt amplifies how these cycles go. I used to absorb so much guilt in my marriage and perhaps unsurprisingly, those were the topics my ex really focused on.

How does she respond when you counter something in the agreement that she wants?
Logged

Breathe.
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2021, 06:59:09 AM »

Sorry to hear your story. Mine is 1/6th of yours. I was married for 6 years. I'm glad I got out. There are times when I look back, but it's always for a short time. I'm very happy with my life now.
I see you talk a lot about her but very little about you.
You sound just like myself when I wanted out. I needed a very good excuse. I needed to be in the "clear". I couldn't be the villain. I had to be 100% spotless innocent. As if this was some sort of trial with a jury. Newsflash, if you leave, you'll always be the villain in her mind and in her family's mind.
You've cheated. In the past I used to think lowly of the people who cheated. Now I have much more empathy. Cheating has crossed my mind several times in the relationship due to it being sexless, just as you've described. In some form, my going to the bathroom and looking at porn videos at night when she was asleep was some sort of cheating too. People don't just wake up and say hey, I wanna cheat. My point is, there's no right and wrong. Right or wrong is the BPD game. If you hadn't cheated, she'd throw in something else. You would always be the villain. So the real question is. Are you happy in this relationship to her? You've been 36 years already. Was there improvement in her condition? As some people here have said, there's usually no "one-size-fits-all" in PD and each case can be unique. I know my wife was hopeless, despite her psychiatrist telling me BPD is the most treatable PD.
Quite some time has elapsed. No doubt you two spent a lifetime together. But is that all life has to offer you? My advice would be not to focus on who's right or wrong, but the time that still lies ahead of you and in yourself. Are you happy today? Could you be happier living a different life?
Have you been doing therapy? 36 yrs with a person with PD without your doing therapy can be very damaging to your self-esteem.

Thanks for your help.  Just hearing that I'm not alone in this has helped.  Just wish we all didn't have to deal.

Can't really answer most of your questions towards the end as yet.  Coming to find that I'm codependent, unsure if I always was or became as a result of circumstances.  Doesn't matter I guess, it's where I find myself today.

It's so hard to answer the "are you happy there" question.  Yes, I think when you strip away the times where she's at her worst,  but I'm really trying not to do what she's doing right now, catastrophizing our whole life as a result of some bad times.  If I had to quantify periods of happiness, I think it would be that I'm happier a larger percentage of the time than unhappy.  Idk, 70/30?  65/35.  And even the unhappy times usually aren't excruciating like now, or like 2006 when we separated then and the time leading up to that.  The totally unhappy periods would be a smaller percentage for sure.  Throughout it all, she's been my best friend.  Making things extra hard because I've lost both my wife and my best friend all in one shot. I just hate the devaluing and discarding that can happen.  Push/pull.

I struggled and suppressed the thoughts of cheating for A LONG TIME.  It was excruciating and quite frankly, I always felt guilt and shame, and it never really filled the need I was looking for.  I regret it and although I've talked with her openly about how I got to that point, she's not ready to even consider her part in things.  I've told her that every time, it was solely a proxy for her.  I'd have always have preferred it had been her there.  She doesn't like hearing that either.

I am getting significant couselling right now, and have had counselling off and on throughout the past 15 years.  It has definitely helped.
Logged
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2021, 07:14:58 AM »

During that time did she talk about the affair at all?

I'm trying to get my head around her rage about the affair followed by a period of calm. Yet still talking about separating ...

Would her medication be subduing her enough to dampen affair fury?

Sometimes I wonder how much our own guilt amplifies how these cycles go. I used to absorb so much guilt in my marriage and perhaps unsurprisingly, those were the topics my ex really focused on.

How does she respond when you counter something in the agreement that she wants?


Yes, it's been confusing to me too.  Mixed messages throughout the past 7 months now.  First two months were tough, not much other than negative.  Things settled down some when she announced the desire to separate, although sporadically she'd get triggered somehow and we'd have an evening of rage and anger, followed by days of disconnect and silence.  Big row right after Christmas one evening, she then left for a week spent at her sisters with her Dad there (he has alzheimers and alternates between them, and yes, when he's at our place I'm doing most of the work to look after him too).  She came back almost a different person and we actually seemed to be making some small progress over the next month, to the point of eating together most nights, chatting with some laughter here and there, and she'd even come out of her area in the evening to watch some TV together some nights.  Thought at that point we had a chance... things were looking up.  However, flipped back to rage mid-February that continued off and on in between silent periods for a few weeks leading up to a Friday night in early March when she came upstairs one evening clearly intent on escalating and inflaming matters.  Would not take a break, would not let me walk away. Kept pushing buttons until I did finally react the way she wanted.  That was my breaking point.  I left that weekend and spent it in a local hotel.  When I went back on the Monday, told her I'd be going to family out of town for a week once this week was over, which I did.  When I came back there was little change in her demeanor, and I also noticed at that point she'd finally taken off her wedding rings which was a dagger to the heart, so I made the decision that my last hope was to pack up and leave ASAP, and let her find out how difficult it can be to do everything associated with running a household and looking after herself.  That maybe then she'd come to appreciate all I do and have done to care for her and make her life easier.  After reading everything so far, it sounds like it's unlikely, at least in her current state, to get to that reasoning.

So the rage is sporadic and seems to get triggered somehow, although not yet sure I understand what during those times were the triggering event to bring it on, other than the fact she's always ruminated on her problems and certainly is with this.

I alluded to her joking many times throughout our lives that she has multiple personalities.  I'm almost thinking she actually might.  That the "mixed episodes" she and her psych talk about are more the effect of her various "personalities" coming in and out.  That one of her personalities is the one that devalues and discards, but they aren't always there.

Alternatively, I'm drawing at straws trying to find anything that might explain her contradictions.

We've actually not disagreed on anything seriously so far in the separation agreement and have not had a single argument solely based on that.

First two weeks out of the house, was getting texts every day (where's this, how do I do that...), past week it feels like I'm invisible.  Very little contact, businesslike and short.

I also have wanted to text her I love her, or that I'm thinking of her maybe weekly just so she knows I'm still here and haven't "left",  but can't bring myself to do that.  Not sure it's a good idea, or that she'd welcome the message. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 07:21:25 AM by CrushedinPtbo » Logged
livednlearned
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 12731



« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2021, 10:09:51 AM »

I also have wanted to text her I love her, or that I'm thinking of her maybe weekly just so she knows I'm still here and haven't "left",  but can't bring myself to do that.  Not sure it's a good idea, or that she'd welcome the message.

It may be different for a 36 year marriage than a shorter relationship, but on the Bettering board, when someone has been discarded by a BPD partner, the advice is often to pull yourself together and be the person you were when the relationship began.

Texting her that you love her might land, it might not.

I would start first with a good look at who you have become in the last 7 months, who you were before that, and what you were like when you met, the guy she fell in love with. Not what you have done for her or why you did xyz or how she's treating you. This is more about reclaiming or rebuilding the guy she fell in love with.
Logged

Breathe.
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2021, 10:20:37 AM »


Also worth considering texting something neutral...versus "love".

At the end of the day it's all kinda a bet because if you text "love" and it runs her off...you won't know ahead of time.

Same thing if you text something neutral...she might think you don't care...or it could be comforting.

Best,

FF
Logged

CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2021, 06:45:08 PM »

It may be different for a 36 year marriage than a shorter relationship, but on the Bettering board, when someone has been discarded by a BPD partner, the advice is often to pull yourself together and be the person you were when the relationship began.

I would start first with a good look at who you have become in the last 7 months, who you were before that, and what you were like when you met, the guy she fell in love with. Not what you have done for her or why you did xyz or how she's treating you. This is more about reclaiming or rebuilding the guy she fell in love with.

We met when we were 20.  Frankly, immature, in lust that felt like love, we somehow made it work for a long time, but it definitely wasn't easy.

Not sure I want to be that 20 year old again.  He had a LOT to learn.  It's hard to undue the pressures of having what felt like the weight of the world on my shoulders alone for the past 15+ years.  I know I'm not as happy go lucky and "fun" as I was, but I had made a couple of career changes to lighten the load, kids were just completely leaving the nest and I was starting to loosen up a little more.  All I needed was for her to join the relationship again.  We couldn't seem to make it happen. 
Logged
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2021, 06:57:07 PM »

After a less than optimal morning where I spent some time feeling sorry for myself and pining for what might have been if she hadn't gone sideways starting back in 2003.  I can almost guarantee it was mostly because I'm sitting at my old house's kitchen table now, and this morning.  I'd agreed a few weeks ago to come stay while she was out of town with at a friend's. Kind of a visit with my dog (can't really have her over to my apartment).  Ya, I need my head examined, but again, the anger seems to come and go and although she says she see's no good in me anymore, somehow she doesn't complete hate me and done a total 100% discard.  However, still feel like she's playing games with texting delays and going dark for a few days only to resurface.

Being here felt weird last night and this morning.  Uncomfortable.  Not my home anymore.

This afternoon, after spending some time going through our storage and pulling out ANYTHING I value (mostly momentos - taking with me just in case the crazy train pulls into the station again), I somehow started to feel at peace and starting talking to myself in my head that it was time to start to take steps to move forward and away.  That at this point it's out of my control, my wife is back to being her alter-ego that decides all her life's problems relate back to her relationship with me.  I know better.  I also can't make her change her mind, she has to decide on her own and it's likely a big struggle in her mind right now given 1. what I'd done, which was totally wrong and deserves her scorn, and 2. that she likely doesn't really want me to leave, but is doing the pre-emptive he's eventually going to anyway, so let's just get it done on my terms.  She also has to be wrestling with the fact that I essentially put a pretty big, new boundary requirement in place to continue the relationship, which was that we both put effort into solving our own and our mutual problems including affection and sex.  I didn't realize that's what that effectively has done.
Logged
CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2021, 12:36:30 PM »

She's definitely in denial around the BPD.  Of course I'm not bringing it up, but the few times recently we've talked she's asked me outright if I'm still talking about that with other people...

She has now also told me she doesn't love me anymore.  She's certain we're done.

I have no choice but to move forward without her.  

Making matters worse, she's isolated me and even if I were wanting to talk to others, no one seems to want to listen or believe me, other than her lone high school friend who is still somewhat in the picture, although she doesn't want confrontation and would prefer to stay out of the drama.

Any advice on how to talk to my two adult kids about all this.  They know she's not well, but seem to want to stay out of the drama (which I understand and am trying MY best to honour, I know my ex with BPD did not early on in this current scenario), but I feel they need to understand what they are dealing with since 1. I already see her pushing against normal boundaries and 2. she's their mother and they will be around her and could use some of the BPD skills.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2021, 02:48:17 PM »

She's definitely in denial around the BPD.  Of course I'm not bringing it up, but the few times recently we've talked she's asked me outright if I'm still talking about that with other people...

 

How did you answer this?


I think it's wise that your kids want to stay out of drama.  That's wise for everyone really.

What life skill would you like them to know and understand that might be useful in difficult relationships?

Best,

FF
Logged

CrushedinOntario

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 21


« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2021, 05:02:25 PM »

How did you answer this?


I think it's wise that your kids want to stay out of drama.  That's wise for everyone really.

What life skill would you like them to know and understand that might be useful in difficult relationships?

Best,

FF

I answered her as NO.  I wasn't ready to have any kind of conversation going down that road at this time with her.  Saying YES would have ramped up the very apparent held in anger that was going on at the time of the conversation.  

Apparently I have many of those skills to learn myself so trying to answer that right now isn't easy.  Definitely setting and maintaining appropriate boundaries.  Also, not to settle for a vastly unequal relationship, that their needs and happiness are just as important if not more so.
Logged
livednlearned
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 12731



« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2021, 12:13:18 PM »

Any advice on how to talk to my two adult kids about all this.  They know she's not well, but seem to want to stay out of the drama (which I understand and am trying MY best to honour, I know my ex with BPD did not early on in this current scenario), but I feel they need to understand what they are dealing with since 1. I already see her pushing against normal boundaries and 2. she's their mother and they will be around her and could use some of the BPD skills.

Have they ever discussed any of her behaviors with you before?

By staying out of the drama do you mean marital issues between you and your wife? Or do they feel it's unsafe in general to discuss things openly because there have been incidents in the past that didn't end well?
Logged

Breathe.
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!