My 2 older kids are alienated from me non bpd dad, as a adult child do you ever

[Sluggo]

My 2 older kids are alienated from me non bpd dad, as a adult child do you ever get to a point you want to have a relationship with him again? 

Quick history
I am a dad who has 7 children.  I was married to a diagnosed bpd woman.  I left 5 years ago (kids ages 15-2), spent 3 years in court trying to get 50/50 custody and lost.  Court custody evaluation was clear in saying that there was parental alienation and that it was abuse.  I did not get 50/50 as my opinion is that with 2 of the kids being special needs the court wanted mom to stay home with them as she did while we were married).    Then 3 months after the divorce finalized, exbpd mom sent me an email handed over all custody and legal rights.  Only wanting kids for 30 days in summer.  After 3 weeks judge signed off.  Now 5 younger kids with me.  The older two decided to stay with mom and uses her home as home base.  The two older kids were emancipated.

NOW:
2 older kids do not talk with me.  They stopped talking with me when I left.  The 2 kids (I will call them John and Mary) broke off all relationships with my family.  They also stopped talking to their mom's sister who has maintained a relationship with me.  Any close mutual friends who kept a relationship with me they stopped communication.  Just like their mom. 

I know when we lived together, I allowed the older kids see their mom talk to me so disrespectfully and abusively to me.  Mom- in front of me- told our daughters that I am sick to be a man to have them spend the night at my home.  The older girls during the divorce did not come to my house.  There are so so many examples of this type of behavior I could share.  I know after I left the mom leaned on John to be the dad of the house- do all the pick up of kids, was her confidant, and used him for my replacement.

I have only seen John and Mary a few times since the divorce.  I will always go up and say hi but they are with their mom when I do see them- and only nod their head or just say hi.  Sometimes, my son will leave anyplace he sees me...  but again he is always with mom when this happens.  I text or email them about once a month, just saying something simple and letting them know I love them and that my door is always open to them.  I might asked them to get a coffee, etc.  I do not get any response. 

My question:  As a child of a BPD parent, do you ever reconcile with your non-bpd parent if there was alienation?  If so, how long did it take...  into your 20s, 30s, after you had kids, etc? 

    I love them tremendously.  I do remember, that I (as the adult husband of a bpdwife) in my marriage cut off all communication with my family of origen as that is what my wife said would help our marriage.  So I understand what they might be feeling.      Love to hear your thoughts

[pursuingJoy]

Sluggo, after going no contact with my dad, I also didn't speak to my mom for two years (when I was 26-28). I've since rebuilt a warm relationship with her (with boundaries in place).

I spoke to a friend yesterday who, at 35, reached out to her parents trying to reconcile yet again.

My 20 year old moved in with their dad and refuses to see me or speak to me right now. Experiences I listed above and more give me hope that your kids and mine will come around in time. My counselor keeps saying that their prefrontal cortexes aren't fully formed. The parts of their brains that are responsible for emotion are much larger than the part that controls the emotion - physically and chemically, they're processing information differently now than they will later.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I wish we had more open conversations about parental alienation and estrangement.

[Sluggo]

Pursuing Joy,

Thank you for your thoughts and encouragement.  I read some of your backstory and understand the context.  I am sorry you went through all of that.

Sad to hear about your son.   I hope he that changes soon for you.  That is really tough. 

Yes, got to keep the hope that reconciliation will happen but still move on with life if not I will bury myself in sadness over something I can't control. 

Sluggo

[Teabunny]

Hi Sluggo, since not many responded I thought I'd at least reply briefly. In my case the alienation stuff from mom against dad didn't really work on me psychologically - she would say things I could observe were obviously untrue about dad or she'd want me to hate him for things I didn't find offensive (such as watching whatever TV programs he wanted); however, we were still alienated due to the BPD family dynamic, as you know. We haven't yet been able to really connect but what helped was when he started using Facebook. He follows my life and likes or comments on posts rarely. I wonder if there were some neutral non-intrusive way for your two oldest kids to "see" you out there in the world, if maybe over a period of time they would begin to understand your life or who you are that might contradict what they learned from their mom? Social media, websites, volunteerism, stuff like that. I wouldn't do anything just for their attention though. Enjoying your life and moving forward is absolutely critical. I would be far more inclined to try harder at a father-daughter relationship if my dad focused on his life, health, friends, happiness - and you have already done so much in these areas.

[Sluggo]

Teabunny, 

Thank you for sharing candidly. 

I beleive the 5 kids that live with me see me for who I am.  However the older 2 really have not known me outside the marriage setting.  And how the preliminary orders were set up only saw me very little until they stopped coming. 

It is the saddest part of divorce as I removed myself from the marriage in order to heal at the expense of 2 relationships with kids.   Very high price.  But I got myself into that mess to begin with.

Sluggo

[GaGrl]

Sluggo, do you anticipate that dealing with their BPD mother without you or their siblings might eventually mean they gain a different perspective?

[beatricex]

hi sluggo,
I did go no contact with both my parents - Mom is bpd, Dad is just an enabler, maybe NPD - for about 7 years.

I did so with the help of a therapist and while reading the book "Divorcing a Parent."  It was a tough decision, and one I waffled on for many many years.  Nothing about the decision was easy.

After 7 years of no contact, I resumed contact with both of them because frankly I missed my Dad.

It's been about 7 years and I'm again going no contact with both of them.  Not because I don't love my Dad, but because my Mom is still abusing me.

Your situation seems different however.  Is it possible the two older kids are enmeshed with their mom?

Here to listen, not judge.  There's no 'right' one size fits all answer here, it's a lot of trial and error and what feels right.  I applaud you for reaching out to your kids regularly.  Even if they don't respond, that's nice of you.  Maybe one day they will come to see your side of this?  Also, don't they miss their younger siblings?
b

[Sluggo]

Gagirl..

Good question.

That is possible but without them getting to know me I am not sure that have anything to compare to.  It is their normal with their mom and her behavior.  They know how to maneuver in the relationship. 

I guess I am hoping that once they start living on their own, they will feel comfortable to reach out to me.  Now it would be a betrayl. 

My fear is that their negative perspective and emotions have harden like cement.  My hope is that it is not cement and like ice which will eventually melt away once they separate from Mom. 

Sluggo

[Sluggo]

B,

It sounds like you put a lot of thought into your decisions.   I understand how it must hurt to have your dad not protect you from mom and how you have a lifetime of memories that has happened.  Is your mom and Dad still married? 

Absolutely.. I beleive they are enmeshed.  I am hoping once their is a physical separation then they will slowly be untangled  with all those dynamics. 

When the other kids visit their mom... leaving tomorrow for the 30 days of summer... then they see their siblings.  So they are not all together until they visit their mom...  making moms place where they become whole again as siblings.  That makes me sad that sense of togetherness i/ completeness us only felt when they are with their mom. 

Thank you for sharing!  I wish you luck with your journey.

Sluggo

[beatricex]

hi again sluggo,
Yes my parents are still married.  My Dad is 75 and my Mom is 73.

They live an alternative lifestyle.  I think my Dad calls it homesteading?  It is really just not paying taxes and living with no central heat and air conditioning in a structure not built to any housing code or standard.  They have friends who think they're "quaint" eccentric even.  I stayed at their place a few times and thought a spider bite would likely kill me.    They also have bats and snakes. 

When I say I'm the parent now, it's not an exaggeration.

Back to your story. 

It's possible the Mom may have a grip on them, that cannot be broken.  Maybe they'll even waffle back and forth a few times?  Be prepared for that.  I guess it would be wise to define an end game:  Obviously you are not raising them anymore.  what would happiness look like for you, however?  Getting invited to a graduation?  a wedding?  Having them answer just one text?  Maybe one of the kids that does live with u mostly reports back that they miss u. 

Really feel for u and your situation, it's literally heart breaking.



b

[Notwendy]

Sluggo,

I truly feel for you, from the other direction. My BPD mother alienated my father from me- badmouthing me to him in his elder years. Before this happened, I didn't think anything could come between the parent-child bond we had. I am not attached to my mother emotionally. She has been cruel and emotionally abusive. But my Dad was my Dad.

My mother has also alienated me from other family members and that has been difficult, but not as difficult as the relationship with my father.

Please don't give up hope. Your children are young and in time they are going to learn a lot as they mature. At their ages, they don't have a good long term perspective. If they eventually have their own families, they will see things from a parent perspective. At some point, BPD mom will likely act up and they may question what she has told them.

Keep the door open without harassing them. Send birthday cards, holiday cards with nice messages such as " thinking of you on your birthday" - not anything that might have strings attached. They will do what they want with them, but you have sent them, you have not cut them off.

Include something very inexpensive ( so in case they toss it out it won't be a loss) like a $10 card to Starbucks or some other treat. You don't want them to feel obligated. Just enough to show them you are thinking of them and invested in them.

Then, live your best life as you go on to work on your career and your own relationships. They may hear from others how you are doing. Hear something like "yes he's living in _____ and working in ____ company. This will contrast with BPD mom's stories and lies. It will sort of create a dissonance "if he's so awful, why is he employed and happy?".

Be your best self, keep the door open. I think the connection to a parent is strong. Look at all the posts from us who stay in contact with our disordered parents - on the basis of that they are still our parents. Some of us have gone NC as it's the best option on their situation, but it's a difficult choice that has been thought out. I don't think it's easy to let go of, even if it appears that way at the moment.

[Choosinghope]

Hi Sluggo!

To mirror what Notwendy said, I also lost my dad, who I loved and trusted, to my uBPD mom. That break has been the most painful part of the situation with my parents. Speaking from the other side, I just wanted to re-affirm that the best thing you can do is to be consistently present in their lives. If possible, meaning if you know what your ex-wife is telling them about your specifically, try to be as consistent as possible in demonstrating to your kids that you are not that person. Your kids are enmeshed with their mom right now, which is to be expected and is something that I am still working through personally. I know how it feels to be extremely blind to reality and willing to accept the other person's reality. Eventually though, there will come a breaking point where your kids will start to question this false reality, and they will start to put the pieces together. For me, it took a terrible smear campaign against my Husband for me to wake up and realize that my mom's reality just didn't make sense anymore. I have no idea when that will happen for your kids, but I do think that you being consistent and present is probably the best thing you can do.

[Sluggo]

Please don't give up hope. Your children are young and in time they are going to learn a lot as they mature. At their ages, they don't have a good long term perspective. If they eventually have their own families, they will see things from a parent perspective. At some point, BPD mom will likely act up and they may question what she has told them.

Keep the door open without harassing them. Send birthday cards, holiday cards with nice messages such as " thinking of you on your birthday" - not anything that might have strings attached. They will do what they want with them, but you have sent them, you have not cut them off.

Notwendy,

Thank you very much for your perspective.  I will not give up hope but agree I need to keep moving forward and not dwell.

 I wish you well with the family you have been alienated from.  I know it may be really uncomfortable for you to be around them.  I know that is how I felt with being around my mom- my exwife would spill so much negativity about her to me over many years of marriage.  For the first 3 years after divorce, I felt like I was doing something wrong if I spoke with her or spent any time with her.  I know she did not feel that way, but I did.  I had my exwife voice replaying all those derogatory statements back to me in my mind. 

Sluggo 

[Sluggo]

Choosing hope,

Thank you for the encouragement and helping me see behind the curtains of the pain that it has caused you and have more empathy for what the kids are going through. 

The consistency seems to be the thread that I keep reading about.  I will do that. 

If it is in the cards, I hope that pain of separation is healed with your dad in someway.  When married, the last few years of my marriage I totally stopped communication with my family.  They had every right to disown me and write me off for the long term.  That was one of the biggest graces I experienced - was the open arms that they accepted me with once I reestablished contact with them after divorce.  There was no questions or me needing to explain myself (they knew), they just accepted me in.  Over time I did share my story with them but did not have to.  They did not need that but I needed to. 

It is such a contrast to my exbpd - her love I felt was conditional- but my family they accept me for who I am - good and bad.  It was that unconditional love that was so impactful to feel that love.  That is the love I want the kids to feel once/if they decide to reengage with me their Dad.   

[Notwendy]

Choosing hope-

I am sorry you have gone through this too. I also understand the smear campaign problem as well. My BPD mother has said so many things to her FOO that I don't know what they think about me. To clear this up, they would have to know she lied, and I don't think they would believe that if I did try to speak to them. Fortunately I don't see them often. I just smile, nod, act polite.

But the manipulative separation from family members is tough. It shocked me that my mother would do such a thing, and also that family members were willing to go along with her.

I can rationalize some of it. She's disordered. She would have taken out her anger on my father if he didn't go along with her. I didn't want that for him, he was already dealing with so much.
I have a hard time understanding her FOO- they seem like rational people. To me, that means if I hear something negative about someone else, I try to check it out, know there's two sides to every story, and make up my own mind. They seemed to just comply with her, I don't know why.  

However, over time, I think her family has seen things differently. They did try to make contact with me. However, I remain wary of them. To be able to have a relationship with them, I need some honesty on their part. What do they think of me, who told them that, how can I clarify. But I also don't trust them enough to discuss it.

Sluggo, don't give up, but also move on and live your best life too. I think this is what has caused my mother's FOO to question. They can see my mother's behavior and she's been irrational with them at times. Then, they see that I am functional - I have a job, and am raising my family.  I have been cordial and polite and rational around them. Her premise is that she's fine and any issues between us are my fault, but this contradicts what they see. Eventually your children will hopefully see the contrast as well, as they get older.