Finding support while divorcing wife with BPD

[shopgirl26]

Hi Kells76,

I reached out to my lawyer to ask him what he thinks.

What I envision is another version of a settlement letter. "This is our offer, sign here and this all goes away. You'll be off the hook for spousal support, there will be no risk of you having to cover my legal fees, and we can get divorced."

If she signs it, great.

If she doesn't sign it, I think this will bolster our case to the judge that we are reasonable and more than fair, and we are only wasting the judge's time with a hearing because she continues to refuse our generous offers out of spite.

The key I think is to strike when she's at peak level stressed. When she's buried in taxes and documents and to do lists from her lawyer in advance of the hearing.

It will suck to be 10k in the hole for this divorce but if it ends this and gets my dog back and her out of my life forever, then I'm willing to do that.

[Goosey]

Think I read there where two dogs. If that’s correct why should you pay for one of them if they are common property of the marriage? And if she has a job and a business and you are a student with limited income it seems she is more exposed then you are in a equal distribution by far. 
    Why bend over backwards? The “discovery” has to be truthful.
      Then let them counteroffer your offer.
And “no” is not an acceptable counteroffer.
    It will pan out and get done. It has to be reasonable in the eyes of the judge. It’s just math at some point.
Hang in there I know it’s consuming at times.

[shopgirl26]

Thanks, Goosey.

You're right. There are 2 dogs and she has both (and a cat but she brought that to the marriage.)

While she's working full time and making bank, on paper she has no money because she spends it like water and doesn't save. While I'm a student, I'm also a saver, so I have money in savings. That's why I feel I stand to lose. I'd like spousal support, but I feel like it would be a nightmare to get it.

So far there's been no counter offers, just straight up "no".

[Goosey]

All income statements will have to be listed in discovery.
 Even if she owes back taxes it will show the income she didn’t properly pay taxes on yet. So it’s in play.
   Sounds like her affairs are a mess. I can see the eye roll of her attorney as they review it. I would be assume your lawyer may ramp you down on sweetening the pot to much.
  Even the fact a third party member paying her attorney is in play I would assume.
  Your lawyer should be putting you at ease somewhat. These things moved a bit slow in my situation. Divorce is the new normal unfortunately so there is a backlog. Or maybe it’s like when your partner is pregnant and all you notice are other pregnant people.
   Don’t give away the store. It has to be fair.

[Goosey]

Sounds like your lawyer gave you solid advice on your settlement proposal (second). Let it ride.
   Enjoy the day.  I am trying to practice something someone posted about constant “what if’s”.
   Allow a strict amount of time at some point of the day to “what if”. Then shut it down.
   That’s all the time “what if’s” get to mess with us.
     It works!  I may seem a bit mad when I blurt out “it’s not you time!” In others company but so be it.
   
   

[shopgirl26]

I have a call scheduled for next Thursday morning to go over strategy with my lawyers and prepare for the hearing. I get the sense they are going to advise me not to offer her more money.

Unfortunately today I see her law firm has a 4.7 rating and mine has a 3.0. I don't know how I missed this. I know Google reviews are not always accurate, but it rattled my confidence.

I just want to say I so appreciate the support from this board. I know I have been a real anxious worrying mess. I'm going to start PTSD treatment this week. I'm still experiencing panic attacks. It's hard to accept that I'm afraid of my ex but I am. I live 2000 miles away from her and I'm safe, but last week I came home and couldn't shake the fear she was in my apartment. I caught myself opening closet doors to check. I know that sounds crazy but the last time I thought I was alone, I was attacked.

Anyway, thanks again for your support. I fully intend to pay it forward and offer new members the same grace and kindness you've shown me.

[ForeverDad]

Don't fret over the ratings, they can be subjective and not objective.

Remember, this hearing is addressing the ESA dog.  If the divorce can be wrapped in, great, if not, that's par for the course.

BTW, her lawyer is likely to ask for a continuance in order to have time to prepare the case.  However, your lawyer should oppose this since the possession of the dog is essentially a simple case which does not depend on years of financial records, etc.  Maybe the overall divorce case will be continued to a later date but the possession aspect has no need to be delayed.

Another thought, in addition to the possibility of a last minute "settlement on the court house steps" you could perhaps negotiate an even better deal for yourself by dropping the the financial records requirement if she would agree to an immediate uncontested divorce.  Likely your lawyer will keep his eyes and ears open for such an opportunity.

Another perspective about settlement offers.  You and your lawyer can put an expiration time on them.  Just because you offered generous terms in past offers doesn't mean your stbEx can later claim a prior expired offer.

[Goosey]

I understand your fear. Many here do.
  That will subside over time.
 It’s not irrational, though at this point of the relationship is becomes more of a battle of principle then a battle of…. Whatever the battle was about. (Not being condescending, sure you know what I mean).
    Be aware of your surroundings etc. and don’t be shy to report any suspicious activities or concerns to the police and or your lawyer and friends.
    Ice cream and funny animal YouTube videos are a good distraction. 
   Honestly, I’ve found the police are very appreciative of a heads up and they are professionally neutral but will keep things on their radar.

[Goosey]

And if you are comfortable with the the lawyer at the law firm that’s all that matters.
   Besides the possession of the dog it seems legally this is a simple divorce. (Again not trying to be condescending). (Hell, mine was a simple divorce.).
   Strip off all the emotion.
   Strip off all the past statements and actions.
   Just look at the numbers.
  I know it’s hard but that’s all it comes down to.
  Math.
  Don’t offer her s——t let your lawyer advise you.
      I want to say “get angry” but I couldn’t either.
  I had the “that’s fine, I’ll agree to that” moment. I’m sure we all do in divorce.
    Let your lawyer do his job.
   Doing nothing is never the worst idea.

[Goosey]

Ugh.
Let your lawyer do “their” job.
My bad.

[I Am Redeemed]

I think it's a good idea to seek help for PTSD. What you experienced is frightening and traumatic.

Let your lawyer guide you through this process. They are paid to defend your best interests. Seek out counseling for the emotional stuff that demands you get this over with, no matter the cost, to ease your anxiety.

[shopgirl26]

This weekend I met with a team of high conflict divorce coaches to talk strategy etc. Feeling a bit more empowered than I was last week. They said my BPD ex doesn't have much and to expect her attorney to deflect and smear my character. They told me when that happens, to have my lawyer redirect to "this is a property case. it's her dog."

Sidenote: I met a woman who was also married to another woman with BPD and we were talking and laughing and then she said, "Let me ask you a question, did your ex ever disappear for long stretches of time? Because you know, a lot of BPD people cheat."

And I said, "Oh no, I don't think so...oh wait. She went to a few tattoo conferences over the years."

Yeah. Googled them. They didn't exist. I don't know where she was for 3 weekends in a row in October 2019, but there were no conferences in the area...

It seems every day I discover another lie.

Also, I'd repressed this memory because it's too painful, but the whole thing with the dog fits into a pattern of behaviour. I used to have a cat I brought into the marriage. Three years ago, my wife gave her away while I was at work, and then when I was upset about it, she yelled at me that I "didn't even care about her or pay that cat any attention and you agreed" etc etc. I blocked that memory out because it still hurts, but I'll be sure to tell my lawyer on Thursday.

[shopgirl26]

UPDATE:

Well, she responded with a 90 page sworn affidavit, alleging I abused the dog, neglected the dog, and she came in to rescue him from abuse.

She also registered the dog as HER emotional support animal 2 days after being served. She got a letter from her therapist naming the dog as her ESA and speaking to how distraught she is at the idea of him not receiving proper care. That letter was dated August 19th, the day her filings were due to the court.

She refutes everything that happens when she broke in, and she admits to phoning the police after I called 911 and telling them not to come (which they didn't.)

She also includes bank records of vet and food and care expenses she paid for.

Her lawyer said if I continue with these "baseless accusations" that "there will be consequences" and she's pulling in the 2 friends who helped her steal the dog to serve as witnesses and testify that she only gave him to me on a "trial basis" providing I met her conditions.

In her sworn financial statements, she said she made $1000/month. She makes $5,000 and because her business comes from Instagram, there are daily posts of large (and expensive) tattoos and posts saying she is fully booked for the month. If we go buy the $50 deposits ALONE there is $7,000 unaccounted for. She also supported me and paid all the bills, totalling over $1300/month (but only made $1000?) The $1000 income entitled her to Covid relief from the government, but the max you can make to receive the support is $1000/month and I can prove she made 5 x that.

I'm sorry to be so frantic, but I am experiencing crazy PTSD. She is continuing to use the court system to abuse me. Please help.

[ForeverDad]

We predicted she would either (1) cave or (2) fight like her life was on the line and it's all your fault.  Now you know.

Didn't you move away?  So unless I'm mistaken she's not anywhere close to you?  Are she or her witnesses (our term here is "negative advocates") planning to come in person to court or does your court allow remote appearances?

Probably your lawyer will say something similar to mine, "Signed or even notarized statements are just pieces of paper in the eyes of the court.  The persons either have to be deposed or testify before the court."  What her friends claim, them being non-professionals, would likely be considered as "hearsay" without documentation, possibly heard but then dismissed.

You have some points on your side, the dog was your ESA first, you never gave up your dog, likely she can't document whether the dog was abused, such as with a prompt veterinarian visit, etc.

I doubt she will ever willingly divulge her financial records.  It used to be huge leverage but these days, who knows?  These days few people, even in government, care about fraud, well, unless they're the small percentage who get roasted.

Lastly, is she contesting the divorce itself?  That piece can be delayed longer, though I don't know for what purpose other than for spite, seeing that you're not claiming marital assets.  On your side you have the demand for financial documentation, on her side she can delay, delay and then settle at the last minute with little or no accountability other than a large lawyer bill.

[Goosey]

Pick you battles.
   Take care of you.
Move forward.
   Love your free life.
Your worth it.
 
   

[kells76]

It is traumatizing reading the allegations from a pwBPD. I'm so sorry she is trying to go "scorched earth". 

She has absolutely no evidence that you abused the dog. She has absolutely no evidence that you said she could have the dog.

Now that your L's have seen the affidavit, I wonder if any kind of deposition can happen around that. She's playing with fire if she thinks she can lie her pants off in a courtroom.

Lean hard on your legal team to get a step by step plan. I'm hoping getting "ok, she sent this, so what that means for you now is we go to X, and after that plan on Y happening" could help you regulate -- at least for me, the more I have concrete steps, the better I do emotionally. Find out from them exactly what each of you (that is, you and your Ls) needs to do next.

I remember the nausea and insomnia and just trauma from back then. I'm so sorry it's happening to you. Post whenever you need support. And it's ok to drink about it if that's what you're into. Or give yourself a break and watch dumb stuff on YouTube, or have comfort food for dinner. Be really kind and gentle to yourself in this stage.

It is so hard and I hope you can take one day at a time until you make it to the other side.

[shopgirl26]

We predicted she would either (1) cave or (2) fight like her life was on the line and it's all your fault.  Now you know.

Didn't you move away?  So unless I'm mistaken she's not anywhere close to you?  Are she or her witnesses (our term here is "negative advocates") planning to come in person to court or does your court allow remote appearances?

Probably your lawyer will say something similar to mine, "Signed or even notarized statements are just pieces of paper in the eyes of the court.  The persons either have to be deposed or testify before the court."  What her friends claim, them being non-professionals, would likely be considered as "hearsay" without documentation, possibly heard but then dismissed.

You have some points on your side, the dog was your ESA first, you never gave up your dog, likely she can't document whether the dog was abused, such as with a prompt veterinarian visit, etc.

I doubt she will ever willingly divulge her financial records.  It used to be huge leverage but these days, who knows?  These days few people, even in government, care about fraud, well, unless they're the small percentage who get roasted.

Lastly, is she contesting the divorce itself?  That piece can be delayed longer, though I don't know for what purpose other than for spite, seeing that you're not claiming marital assets.  On your side you have the demand for financial documentation, on her side she can delay, delay and then settle at the last minute with little or no accountability other than a large lawyer bill.

Forever Dad, thanks so much for your reply.

To your questions,

-I did move away so I'm safe, and the process will take place over the phone/Zoom

- She grossly misrepresented her income, and for the purposes of spousal support, my L's would file disclosure requests (her appointment book, her bank records, the business' records etc.) The reason I think this is a good option is this: she not only lied in sworn financial statements, she also lied on her taxes. She also filed a false claim to EI and is falsely collecting EI as we speak and I can prove it. Her business is based on Instagram, and the volume of clients and rate of appointments is publicly available. We can estimate her income based on the volume of appointments multiplied by the base/hourly rate etc. She also supported me while we were together (paying all of our bills) and now she's claiming she makes $300 less than just our bills were every month. So she could be looking at tax evasion, tax fraud, or an investigation for a false EI claim. I'm hoping we can convince her lawyer that we have enough for her to lose credibility in the eyes of the judge should we go to a hearing. Plus she could be on the hook for spousal support and owing the government the money back that she falsely collected.

I hired a high conflict divorce coach who advised me to hammer her with her finances so she folds in mediation and we don't have to go to a hearing. I think I'd like to go this route (if it works.)

[ForeverDad]

Odds on...
... family court chasing after her or reporting her for fraud = very low
... family court forcing her to disclose finances = maybe, eventually
... her inclined to refuse revealing fraudulent past actions = probably
... spousal support = possible but likely brief due to short marriage

[GaGrl]

Your best bet for getting her to reveal financial info is through a deposition. She would be questioned under oath about the very things you mention. She might do very poorly in a deposition.

[Sluggo]

I am concerned as after all this dust settles, you are going to be hit with a huge lawyer bill.  Have you been paying bill in full each month. 

My bill was overwhelming- years to pay-  and court results were poor.  The only people who won were both lawyers.  The lawyers were ruthless in getting paid afterwards.  It was so depressing especially since I did not get what was hoped for.  Every month reminded of the pain of separation when paying bill. 

Divorce is so painful, loss of loved ones is so painful, the system is ripe to take advantage of this pain as lawyers love the battle and lawyers don't help the client to look at the full cost of the battle (your pain, length of time, your money, your how am I going to pay for it) 

Sluggo

[shopgirl26]

Odds on...
... family court chasing after her or reporting her for fraud = very low
... family court forcing her to disclose finances = maybe, eventually
... her inclined to refuse revealing fraudulent past actions = probably
... spousal support = possible but likely brief due to short marriage

I'm not expecting the court to hold her accountable. I realize the justice system rarely holds a BPD accountable. But I'm hoping the threat of her losing her credibility in front of the judge, plus the threat of an investigation into a false EI claim, plus the threat of owing spousal support and costs to me, plus the threat of having her bosses have to turn over their records, might be good pressure we can apply in mediation. That seems to be the route my L's and divorce coach want to go.

[shopgirl26]

I am concerned as after all this dust settles, you are going to be hit with a huge lawyer bill.  Have you been paying bill in full each month. 

My bill was overwhelming- years to pay-  and court results were poor.  The only people who won were both lawyers.  The lawyers were ruthless in getting paid afterwards.  It was so depressing especially since I did not get what was hoped for.  Every month reminded of the pain of separation when paying bill. 

Divorce is so painful, loss of loved ones is so painful, the system is ripe to take advantage of this pain as lawyers love the battle and lawyers don't help the client to look at the full cost of the battle (your pain, length of time, your money, your how am I going to pay for it) 

Sluggo

Sluggo, I'm so sorry to hear about your difficult legal journey and the bills. What a nightmare. That sounds so exhausting and draining. It is so sad to me that divorce is a business. It shouldn't be.

My lawyers took my case at a flat rate because they were confident they could get the dog back. I paid the retainer in full and the understanding is that the retainer covers the cost of the hearing and paperwork and the divorce itself.

[shopgirl26]

LAST UPDATE:

We had our preliminary hearing in front of a judge yesterday. My BPD ex wasn't even there. Her lawyer refused to even consider mediation, and insisted on a full day hearing in December. I think the strategy is to drain me emotionally and financially. A full day hearing would be astronomically expensive. Nearly six thousand dollars for the day, plus all of the work my lawyer would have to do to prepare witnesses, experts, etc.

The judge called the dog's vet records where I'm listed as the owner into question. She said they were hearsay without the vet in to testify. She also wants my therapist and my doctor to testify.

My BPD ex's lawyer is aggressive (no surprise) and I am worried about being cross examined by him. If my ex wins the case, I will be on the hook, not just for the money I've already spent, but for the cost of the hearing and the cost of her legal fees.

I think it's time to start asking myself some hard questions. Some pain in life is optional. While what she did to me was so wrong, I can choose not to sign up for another 6 months of stress and panic and suffering. I miss my dog every day but I also can't live in a state of PTSD and panic for much longer. I landed my dream job yesterday and I want to get on with my life.

With mediation off the table, I can't apply any pressure. I have no leverage. I can quit now and walk away from the money I've spent, or I can sign up for another 6 months of pain and expense and heartbreak, and quite possibly lose, and lose more money in the end.

I'm kind of in shock. My lawyers were confident the judge would push for mediation but she didn't. My lawyers assured me 99% of cases don't make it to a hearing. But here we go. Also, the longer she has the dog, the stronger a case she has for having him remain with her.

Very low day today as I adjust to this news and try and accept what is.

[Goosey]

Congrats on the dream job!  That’s a great accomplishment alone and more impressive with the stress you under.
   Seems you are working through the option process intelligently. 
    The fact you are functioning at the level you are is a win for you personally. 
    Life goes on. You prove that.
  Picking your battles. That’s part of the process it seems.
 

[Ventak]

There are no words...

 

[shopgirl26]

So my divorce coach told me mine is a terrible lawyer (he told me the wrong time for the hearing and then gave me a minutes notice to log on), he was disorganized and he admitted to the judge that he didn’t read either affidavit.

Divorce coach told me to call some other attorneys and see what strategy they’d use. I spoke to some over the weekend and they said her false allegations of neglect and the “trial basis” argument would be looked at skeptical of by the judge. I still have in writing her saying I could have the dog.

I’m going to call a (competent) attorney tomorrow morning and see what they say. Just so I have all the information before I decide how to proceed.

[Sluggo]

and I want to get on with my life.

For me, when I got to
 that point, I felt so much better.  It allowed me to let go of the anger and look forward. 
 It sounds like you are almost there ... and as you know the divorce coach will not be paying the lawyer bills nor have to go through all the upcoming anxiety that you will

Sluggo

[shopgirl26]

Update:

So last Thursday was our hearing. Ex didn't show but a very expensive, top-rated lawyer came in her place and gunned for a full day hearing in December.

Then on Monday at 9 am, that same lawyer wrote to my lawyer offering me a couple grand in exchange for my signing away my rights to the dog, my rights to property, and my rights to spousal support.

I don't know what to make of this. I tend to think she's lost some ground and is showing her hand by making an offer this soon. They didn't even give me a week to back out.

They got the full day hearing they wanted (rather than a cheaper half day.) The full day in court is going to cost upwards of 10,000 (with another $6,000 in a retainer to be paid to her lawyer in the next few weeks so he can get started.) So they come in hot, gunning for a hearing. Then, three days later, they reach out with "take this money, sign here, and make this go away by September 10th."

Wondering what people who have been through a divorce/settlement/negotiation with a BPD make of this new development. My lawyer thinks she is prepared to spend and go to court (but would rather not if she could avoid it.) But her mother is paying. Her mother has already spent $3,000 on a lawyer to scare me off. But I'm hanging on. And now her mother stands to part with another $6,000 just so this lawyer can get started on her daughter's case. And every expert witness is another $5,000. And every additional affidavit is another $1000. Plus the full day hearing is another $3,000.
I think the mother is generous and wants to be a hero, but only to a point. And spending $10,000+ on your daughter's court case when you're saving for retirement isn't a good move.

(I don't want to go to court either, but can I hang in just long enough that they back out?)

In my mind, I'm no longer divorcing the daughter. I'm negotiating with the mom, who, unlike the BPD, is receptive to logic and reason. It's the mother's money they're offering me to walk away (my ex is broke.)

I think they're banking on me taking the money. They think I'm a broke student and I need it. They think I'm overwhelmed with this lawsuit and want out.

I want to come back to them and say, "No money. Just dog, and I'll sign whatever you need me to sign, drop the suit, release BPD ex from spousal obligations, and this is all over." That might throw them. Thoughts?

[ForeverDad]

Remember, you've already spent money, your own money.  Once they put the fear of skyrocketing costs in place, you quickly got an offer, showing their strategy is "shock and awe" to scare you and then expect you to be inclined to accept a little money instead.  Don't throw that compensation offer out the window.  If you do, you'd in effect be countering with a giveaway.  So...

Keep in mind your ESA dog is many miles away and by the time you get to a full day hearing months from now you will have been away from your dog for what, nearly a year?  What is your pal worth in time, effort and money?  Can you choose another ESA dog in your current area?

Your counteroffer (listen to your lawyer's advice) can be something like...

Any settlement must include the entire divorce, wherein afterward neither party seeks any further legal demand or action against the other, without any delays beyond those minimally required by the divorce process.  I propose two alternative terms to choose from.

• (1) I would accept your offer plus the return of my ESA dog in good health.
• (2) I would accept your offer at double the offered amount, which would offset some of my legal expenses* and costs of finding another ESA animal.

* Do not say "court costs" since the lawyer fees and expert fees dwarf what court itself charges.

We're not lawyers here so this is practical not legal advice.  They may be expecting a counteroffer more expensive than their lowball proposal.  Let them choose their pain... include the dog *or* pay more to offset your expenses more.  Let us know what your lawyer thinks, okay?

[shopgirl26]

Hi ForeverDad,

Thanks for your detailed reply. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. I started my new (dream) job this week so it's been hectic. Nice to have something to enjoy after such misery for so long.

So we countered with this:

I will accept your cash offer plus the immediate return of ESA dog and in exchange, I will sign over all assets and property and release BPD ex from all spousal support obligations.
**If you do not accept our offer, we will file a motion to compel the last 3 years of your bank records, your appointment book, and the shop's records, as it has come to our attention that you have grossly underrepresented your income on your sworn financial statements.

Now we wait.

My lawyer is rather ineffective and unresponsive, so I strategized this offer with 2 other lawyers. They agreed this was the best option-- to release her from spousal (which seems important to her) and light a fire under her by drawing attention to the fact she lied about her income and threatening to go after her records and her boss's records which she may want to avoid (because they most likely don't exist due to her disorganization.) Her income will not match her tax records or EI claim, and that may be a problem. At the very least, she would have to "correct" her financial reports and alert the judge that the first set of records was grossly inaccurate.

Both lawyers said given the timing of her offer (2 days after we set the court date) that she is motivated to avoid court. Her mother has been paying, and would be paying for court, and knowing her mother, I can't see her rationalizing spending 10-15 grand that she won't get back (in addition to the 3k she already spent plus whatever she's paid to support my ex over the last 6 months.) Plus, if my BPD ex lost in court, it would be her mother paying my costs. And spousal, since my ex is always broke.

I think the mother wants this over with as soon as possible for as cheap as possible. Hence the September deadline to sign everything over, accept the cash, and wrap things up. It's her money they offered me. I think she assumed I would take the meager cash offer, thinking I was a broke student desperate for cash. I think I've thrown them off by making a counter offer and a vague legal threat.