Anyone worked with a divorce attorney who specializes in BPD?

[shopgirl26]

Hi everyone,

I'm going through an unnecessarily messy divorce from my ex-wife with BPD. That whole sad story is in another post.

I'm wondering whether anyone has worked with a divorce attorney who specializes in litigating against people with BPD?

I already have a legal team, and I do what I can to manage their expectations in terms of how little cooperation and compliance we can expect from my ex, but this doesn't seem to be their area, so while they are great lawyers, they seem to always be blindsighted by her behaviour, and they expect logic and reason she isn't capable of.

Basically, my concern is that the judge will ignore the signs of BPD and encourage us to work things out ourselves, which IS NOT POSSIBLE due to NC, my ex's rage and violence toward me, and her refusal to cooperate or negotiate.

I found a law firm that specializes in BPD, and I called for a free consultation.

Has anyone switched to a lawyer with a BPD specialty? Did this change the game for you in terms of strategy and results?

[Ventak]

I've worked with two attorney's that were well versed in BPD, though they didn't advertise a "specialization".  It makes a world of difference... I found that they were able to predict my BPDw's behavior or tell stories of possible scenarios in our relationship that were spot on.  I think if you have specialized in Family Law and have courtroom experience you will run into BPD.  I think I read that 60-70 percent of divorces that go to court have at least one individual with PD, typically NPD or BPD.  My second attorney specializes in her firm for cases bound for court.

My attorney's were not for divorce, but to protect my kids in a child protective services case and on a restraining order for that case.  My attorney in the RO hearing was brilliant.  At the end my BPDw decided not to defend herself and apologized to me for having hurt me, a 180 degree turn from where she seemed to be at the start of the hearing.  Had I defended myself or had a less experienced attorney I think the result would have been quite different.  This event "appears" to have had a strong impact and she has also apologized for what she labelled "financial abuse" and taking advantage of my generous nature.  While she still has a ways to go before we can have any real contact, it appears she is headed the right direction... and I think my BPD knowledgeable attorney made some, if not all, of the difference.

[shopgirl26]

Hi Vantak,

Thanks so much for sharing your experience with me. I'm so glad that your lawyers were able to make such a positive impact! Good for you, that's fantastic.

I read that same statistic that 60-70% of people in cases that go to court are high conflict personalities. It makes sense. Most of us want to settle and get it over with.

Wow. Can I ask what your lawyer did to cause this 180-degree turn in your ex's behaviour? From the rage to an apology? Do you think your lawyer's strength was communicating with the judge, or knowing how to communicate in a way that would convince someone with BPD to take accountability for their actions? (I don't know if my lawyers, great as they are, know how to do that.)

Can I ask what the timeline for all of this was? Was your lawyer in regular communication/negotiation with your ex, or was this 180-degree turn the result of your lawyer's argument in front of a judge?

My lawyers know that my ex was diagnosed, but I'm not sure how experienced they are with this. They keep telling me they've seen people behave badly and that I'd be surprised that even the most contentious cases settle out of court. But this isn't just bad behaviour. This is a personality disorder.

[Ventak]

She kept things VERY simple.  Questions to me were very specific, and she coached me for three hours prior to the hearing.  I tend to ramble and give details.  Here it was more like "Yes, she has abused me in the past."  "She opened the door very quickly and broke my toe."  "She raged for 20 minutes while I was trying to calm her."  The key was to let my attorney ask follow up questions if she wanted more detail than exactly what she had asked.  You don't want the judge to get bored or annoyed.

On her questioning, my attorney saw a few things hidden deep in some paperwork.

My attorney showed a 30 second video of her raging.
My attorney "Is that you in the video hitting my client with the stool"
Her "I don't know, I can't see any faces"
My attorney "Does it sound like you?"
Her "Yes"
My attorney "Was there anyone else in the room"
Her "No"
My attorney "When you say you blacked out, were you ever unconscious"  ( I had explained what my wife means by this)
Her "No"
---- A few other direct questions surrounding this subject ---
Attorney "Can you tell me about how long you were blacked out"
Her "It doesn't work that way"
Attorney "Is it safe to say that you might not remember anything that happened that day"
Her "I don't know"
Attorney "We rest our case"
Judge "pwBPD please proceed with your case"
Her "I don't want to defend myself.  I just want him to know that I'm sorry that I've hurt him.  I just want to apologize for hurting him"
Me: Complete breakdown, sobbing under the desk in the courtroom.

This was the third or fourth line of questioning where my attorney was able to take advantage of specific illogical side affects of BPD and very concisely make it obvious what was going on.  What took me about 90 minutes to describe / explain a couple days before, my attorney consolidated into a precision testimony of about 5-7 minutes.

My lawyer did not contact my W, though she did contact an attorney that thought he was going to be retained before my W backed out on him.  It was all done in court.

Because there are young children involved, the state puts an incredible urgency into it.  The longer away from a parent the worse it is for a child, and since there are so many false accusations they need to be on top of it.  We had less than a week to prepare, though I had been talking with this attorney off and on for a few weeks in anticipation.  It is very rare for a person under criminal case to defend a restraining order, since anything they say can be used in the criminal trial.  My BPDw both appealed my order against her but put out an order against me.  Hers was dismissed, mine upheld.  I expected both of these but my attorney suggested she wouldn't just as yours are.  The first attorney I consulted predicted both though...  But he is more of a negotiator.  

My victims advocate recommended this attorney.  Said that she both respected and feared her... I could see why after seeing her in action.

I have no idea why my attorney chose the portions of my preparation.  I had 20 minutes of video, she showed only 30 seconds of it.  Her case took about 1/10th of what I would have done/wanted.  She just hammered the violence against me, and certain behaviors that she "knows" are effective/necessary for the judge to understand.

[shopgirl26]

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing in such detail. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it.

Your lawyer sounds incredible. Thank you for advice re not sharing too much in order to keep the facts concise and not bore the judge. I will keep that in mind.

I think I will have this consult with the BPD specializing lawyer and ask what makes their approach different. Maybe I’ll get some tools to take to my legal team. Failing that, I will ask directly if they have experience with high conflict  personalities and how this changes their approach. I might also recommend some of bill eddy’s work for them to read.

I think it’s a case of the pwBPD having enough rope to hang themselves so to speak. I’m sorry to hear your ex assaulted you. You kept it to the facts re the assault, showed evidence, and it worked.

My ex has  already established a pattern of intimidation, and threatening behaviour. I have to hope her emotional irregularity works in my favour. She will surely lose it under cross examination. My lawyer has been practicing family law for 25 years. His goal will be to trip her up. She will not want to admit to the severity of her behaviour. She will enter the courtroom already enraged that she has to be there. If she’s caught in a lie it will be worse. And if she disrespects the judge, court order etc (petulant bpd) I hope it helps my case

If 60-70 of cases wind up in court due to HCP, I just have to show I’m the reasonable person and let my ex do the rest and show herself for who she is. I hope that’s enough for the judge.

[ForeverDad]

My divorce lawyer was very empathetic to my case but also is fearless in going to court.  Definitely proactive.  Not unreasonably aggressive.  He estimated my case at 7-9 months.  Yet he refused to accept my thoughts about BPD or the sabotage and obstruction she would create.  Over the years (2 years in lengthy divorce and 6 years post-divorce) his observations changed.  One time he remarked she was f-ing nuts, one of the few times he ever cursed, another time he exclaimed as we left court that she was 'crazy' and could probably pass a lie detector.

Since we never had a mental health expert testify as to her mental state, he avoided speculation of a diagnosis.  Clearly, the court and those around the court had no interest in hearing me Play Doctor.

My court just wanted to get through the divorce and mostly ignored the poor behaviors.  There were multiple opportunities for the court and lawyers to modify the temp order but it didn't.  However, in our last hearing in 2013 — 8 years after first entering the legal system in 2005 — the court finally listened to evidence of her continuing conflict and ruled that she would benefit from counseling.  However, it declined to order her into counseling.  I already had custody (Legal Guardianship) but I got what I came for, majority parenting time (though only during the school year).

[Ventak]

I think it’s a case of the pwBPD having enough rope to hang themselves so to speak. I’m sorry to hear your ex assaulted you. You kept it to the facts re the assault, showed evidence, and it worked.

His goal will be to trip her up. She will not want to admit to the severity of her behaviour. She will enter the courtroom already enraged that she has to be there. If she’s caught in a lie it will be worse. And if she disrespects the judge, court order etc (petulant bpd) I hope it helps my case

If 60-70 of cases wind up in court due to HCP, I just have to show I’m the reasonable person and let my ex do the rest and show herself for who she is. I hope that’s enough for the judge.

Going off what I learned from my lawyer...  Don't worry about showing she has mental conditions, it is not relevant to the case.  It's your dog - here is the evidence.  She forcibly removed the dog from your care - here is the evidence.  It is your emotional support animal - here is the evidence.  It is in the best interest of you and the dog for the dog to be in your care - here is the evidence.  Case closed.  This focuses the judge on what is important to you and why you should get what you are asking.  Let her ramble and lose focus on what matters...

While your dog is like a child to you, with all the emotions that come along with it...  Legally speaking the dog is no different than the kitchen table.  The judge won't care that she is nuts, if it's her table.   If she had two people hold you while she took the table that you have proven belonged to you... well, that's a different story.

[shopgirl26]

Forever Dad, I am so glad that after such a long and painful battle, you were awarded the majority of time with your kids during the school year. It is frustrating that your wife wasn't ordered into counselling, but I guess we have to take these wins when they come.

Ventak, you gave me some very sound advice, so thank you. I really appreciate it. Yes, a dog is property in the eyes of the law, so I will focus on building as strong a case as I can in terms of proving the dog is my property. (Ex agreed to let me keep him, his registration as ESA, dr's notes, etc.) My ex won't be able to counter that with evidence of her own.

I won't focus on trying to prove her mental condition because it is not relevant in a property case. On the other hand, I hope that it rears its ugly head long enough to annoy/frustrate the judge. Ultimately, ours is not as important a case as a child custody case, so I think the judge will want to get it over with ASAP, and won't have a ton of patience for her delaying, evading, dragging her feet. I'll just stay calm, collected, and reasonable.

[MeandThee29]

Mine specialized in high conflict divorce and recommended Billy Eddy in the first appointment. He had four decades of experience in every type of divorce including litigation. I wouldn't say that he was an expert in BPD/NPD, but he could pretty much predict what was going to happen from his background and experience. He got that the reasoning and motivations were off on the other side and worked hard on how to handle that. He told me in the first interview that he was expecting that it wouldn't be a normal case where people may fuss at first and then settle down to get it done.

Mediation is not required in my state, and we were only a few appointments in when he declared that my ex was not a reasonable negotiator, so we took that off the table. His attorney agreed.

For my case, the key became the relationship between the attorneys. They had been going against each other for decades and clearly liked each other, and they got it done without going to court. At times his would call mine asking for advice on how to handle my ex, and my attorney would always summarize what was said with me and then not charge me for the whole call. They really aren't supposed to do that, but it did get it settled. We never went to court, but did threaten multiple times. We knew that his did NOT want to take such disordered person to court.

[shopgirl26]

Mine specialized in high conflict divorce and recommended Billy Eddy in the first appointment. He had four decades of experience in every type of divorce including litigation. I wouldn't say that he was an expert in BPD/NPD, but he could pretty much predict what was going to happen from his background and experience. He got that the reasoning and motivations were off on the other side and worked hard on how to handle that. He told me in the first interview that he was expecting that it wouldn't be a normal case where people may fuss at first and then settle down to get it done.

Mediation is not required in my state, and we were only a few appointments in when he declared that my ex was not a reasonable negotiator, so we took that off the table. His attorney agreed.

For my case, the key became the relationship between the attorneys. They had been going against each other for decades and clearly liked each other, and they got it done without going to court. At times his would call mine asking for advice on how to handle my ex, and my attorney would always summarize what was said with me and then not charge me for the whole call. They really aren't supposed to do that, but it did get it settled. We never went to court, but did threaten multiple times. We knew that his did NOT want to take such disordered person to court.

MEANDTHEE, this is so helpful! Thank you for sharing your experience with me.

My ex is currently self represented, so as you can imagine, it's been wild. She won't agree to anything––not a reasonable settlement letter, not a 3k cash offer for the return of the dog (that is already mine). She calls and yells on my lawyer's voice mail. She tries to threaten me through my lawyers. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable, experienced attorney on her side for my attorney to negotiate with. I wish she had an attorney to give her good advice. The only people in her corner also have BPD and are egging on her anger, entitlement, and wild demands.

Obviously, I would love to avoid court, but that is where we are headed unless my ex pulls a 180 degree turn and backs off due to the overwhelming amount of paperwork she'd have to file (she hasn't done her taxes in 2 years and she's self-employed and has kept no records. Also, once she is served with papers, she will have to file a statement of income, expenses, property, a sworn affidavit, etc. I'm type A and organized, and having to get all that done in the 15-day deadline would stress me out. So we'll see if she manages.)

[Ventak]

Just a thought... does being self-employed constitute a business?  If so, is your state one of those wherein you are entitled to half of that business?  If so, that might be the "carrot" to keep it out of court.

[MeandThee29]

MEANDTHEE, this is so helpful! Thank you for sharing your experience with me.

My ex is currently self represented, so as you can imagine, it's been wild. She won't agree to anything––not a reasonable settlement letter, not a 3k cash offer for the return of the dog (that is already mine). She calls and yells on my lawyer's voice mail. She tries to threaten me through my lawyers. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable, experienced attorney on her side for my attorney to negotiate with. I wish she had an attorney to give her good advice. The only people in her corner also have BPD and are egging on her anger, entitlement, and wild demands.

Obviously, I would love to avoid court, but that is where we are headed unless my ex pulls a 180 degree turn and backs off due to the overwhelming amount of paperwork she'd have to file (she hasn't done her taxes in 2 years and she's self-employed and has kept no records. Also, once she is served with papers, she will have to file a statement of income, expenses, property, a sworn affidavit, etc. I'm type A and organized, and having to get all that done in the 15-day deadline would stress me out. So we'll see if she manages.)

Yes, I'm guessing that you'll end up in court. Sorry about that. I well could have been in your shoes.

After awhile, my ex's attorney talked a lot with mine about wanting to quit, and we were very concerned about that. By then we figured my ex would go pro-se if his attorney quit, so mine did what he could to keep his attorney in the game. His got into a mode of calling mine frequently. Sometimes it was on my case, and sometimes it wasn't. His attorney's father had tragically died in an accident, and my attorney's father was in hospice, so they'd talk about their fathers and various other things. Mine assured me that he wasn't billing for the chit-chat but was being a good listener.

Then late in closeout when we were just waiting on bureaucracies hampered by the pandemic, my ex took up two issues in turn that were pro se. The first issue was typical, illogical pro se. My attorney called his to see what was up and was told he was out for an extended period and would return the call when he could. Thankfully it was something that I was able to make calls on and then run by my attorney. We got that resolved to my ex's satisfaction. Then I saw in the local paper that my ex's attorney had died. So that explained a lot. Then #2 hit. My attorney's paralegal was thankfully able to make some phone calls to people I couldn't get to and wrote up a summary that she cleared with my attorney. She handled the issue to my ex's satisfaction. Later I found out that his attorney had died of COVID and had been in the hospital with that for quite awhile, so that explained the pro se. At least we had gotten through the bulk of it with an attorney on the other side. In my area, opposing counsel normally sends a letter when they close a divorce matter, but we never got one from his attorney's practice and didn't receive notice that another attorney was taking over either.

Hopefully that's it.

[shopgirl26]

Just a thought... does being self-employed constitute a business?  If so, is your state one of those wherein you are entitled to half of that business?  If so, that might be the "carrot" to keep it out of court.

Hi Ventak! To your question, it's a grey area. My ex is technically an independent contractor. She works as a tattoo artist. She works at a tattoo shop. Rather than be paid an hourly wage, she charges by appointment and pays the shop a cut. We're in Canada, btw. (She hasn't filed her taxes in 2 years though, and hasn't kept any records. Taxes for the past 3 years are required for the divorce so that should be stressful on her end.)

[Ventak]

Got it.  Here in the states there wouldn't be any significant assets, though her "tools and supplies" would likely be marital assets... I don't know much about that industry but I would guess that she has at least a few thousand in equipment/supplies.

I assume that the 3 years taxes is mandatory and does not go away if you decide to settle amongst yourselves?  If not, would it be enough incentive for her to avoid doing that by having your lawyer tell her "Give my client X, you keep Y and this whole thing goes away without you having to go through an extensive audit of your business and taxes".

[shopgirl26]

Hi Ventak,

Yes, that's what we're hoping. The sheer amount of paperwork she would have to file before the deadline is enough to make a person panic. She'd have to complete a full statement of income, statement of property, statement of expenses, a sworn affidavit (that she'd need to have sworn by a lawyer or notary, and she's self represented) plus the last 3 years of taxes (2 years of which are not done.)

My sworn affidavit was about 40 pages long and had 13 pieces of evidence attached.


 My lawyer said if she drags her feet (what I'm expecting) or fails to provide any of the above or fails to disclose her income, we can go after the shop's books/records. I think she would want to avoid this at all costs. She is already getting served with papers at work (I didn't have a residential address) so this is already pretty embarrassing for her. If it were me, I wouldn't want my employer to have to get involved in my divorce. I'd settle and make the whole thing go away. But that's me.

My lawyers are also pretty confident that she will have no idea what to do during the trial, since she's self representing. There will be a cross examination period where my lawyers will try to catch her in a lie. If she lies in front of the judge or gets emotional, I'm hoping that would sink her credibility/case. She would also be expected to cross examine me which...yikes.

My lawyers are anticipating a lot of character assassination, none of which would be relevant to the case.

[kells76]

I assume that the 3 years taxes is mandatory and does not go away if you decide to settle amongst yourselves?  If not, would it be enough incentive for her to avoid doing that by having your lawyer tell her "Give my client X, you keep Y and this whole thing goes away without you having to go through an extensive audit of your business and taxes".

Good advice -- find the leverage you have and use it. She may complain that it's "blackmail" or any number of negative descriptions. The fact that she does not like it and describes it a certain way doesn't define the situation. You're not the kind of person who is trying to punish her, and all you can do is hold on to what YOU know is true about yourself, whatever she thinks of you and your actions.

Give my client X, you keep Y

Getting into the details:

When doing any kind of written agreement with a pwBPD, you MUST go above and beyond in closing loopholes (that aren't obvious to "normal" people) and building in automatic consequences for her noncompliance.

When I saw "give my client X and you keep Y", I thought "Yes, leverage!" and then I thought "you need a deadline on that, or she'll drag it out!"

If it were me writing it, I might say something like "If you give my client X in writing (email or DELIVERED letter only) by Friday, July 9th, at 5pm Central time, then you can keep N% of Y."

Otherwise, she'll say "But I tried to text you and you didn't check it on time" or "But I tried to call you but your phone was off, so it doesn't count" or "I remember that you said on the phone I could have everything, and you're a liar if you don't remember that"

So:

-written record only
-day, date, TIME deadline
-only specific formats accepted
-consequence spelled out

My lawyer said if she drags her feet (what I'm expecting) or fails to provide any of the above or fails to disclose her income, we can go after the shop's books/records. I think she would want to avoid this at all costs.

Yes, she will likely stonewall. So it's on you to build in SPECIFIC deadlines at each action step. Yes, you'd think she'd want to avoid that outcome at all costs... but consider...

She may prioritize a feeling of "being in control" even over doing what's in her own best interest. She may be willing to shoot herself in the foot if the "feeling" she can keep is "shopgirl26 isn't controlling me".

What we have had to do with DH's kids' mom is build in deadlines to email requests. I just sent one about an activity for one of the kids. I'm not interested in asking "hey, does it work for you if SD13 does X in August?", and there's a signup deadline, and Mom sabotages it by delaying until after the signup and then saying "Oh, I'm totally OK with it!" thus making me the bad guy for missing the signup for SD13 -- if that makes sense.

Instead, we emailed: "Hey, SD13 wants to do X activity during your time in August, let me know your thoughts by Wednesday July 7th; if I don't hear from you by then, I'll assume you're taking the lead on figuring out if it works". (We are OK if Mom says No, but not OK if she never responds. If she doesn't respond by the 7th then I'm fine with telling SD13 "It is 100% up to Mom now")

So, if you have to communicate with her, build in "If I don't get an email back from you by August 31st, I'll assume that X, Y, Z". And if you have some legal stuff waiting on her foot-dragging, build in "If you don't respond in email or writing by Day, Time, then Consequence".

You have to build these things so you aren't dependent on her cooperation to move forward. Key takeaway: build messages/documents so that her nonresponse is a response allowing you to do what you need to do.

Hope that helps;

kells76

[shopgirl26]

Good advice -- find the leverage you have and use it. She may complain that it's "blackmail" or any number of negative descriptions. The fact that she does not like it and describes it a certain way doesn't define the situation. You're not the kind of person who is trying to punish her, and all you can do is hold on to what YOU know is true about yourself, whatever she thinks of you and your actions.

Getting into the details:

When doing any kind of written agreement with a pwBPD, you MUST go above and beyond in closing loopholes (that aren't obvious to "normal" people) and building in automatic consequences for her noncompliance.

When I saw "give my client X and you keep Y", I thought "Yes, leverage!" and then I thought "you need a deadline on that, or she'll drag it out!"

If it were me writing it, I might say something like "If you give my client X in writing (email or DELIVERED letter only) by Friday, July 9th, at 5pm Central time, then you can keep N% of Y."

Otherwise, she'll say "But I tried to text you and you didn't check it on time" or "But I tried to call you but your phone was off, so it doesn't count" or "I remember that you said on the phone I could have everything, and you're a liar if you don't remember that"

So:

-written record only
-day, date, TIME deadline
-only specific formats accepted
-consequence spelled out

Yes, she will likely stonewall. So it's on you to build in SPECIFIC deadlines at each action step. Yes, you'd think she'd want to avoid that outcome at all costs... but consider...

She may prioritize a feeling of "being in control" even over doing what's in her own best interest. She may be willing to shoot herself in the foot if the "feeling" she can keep is "shopgirl26 isn't controlling me".

What we have had to do with DH's kids' mom is build in deadlines to email requests. I just sent one about an activity for one of the kids. I'm not interested in asking "hey, does it work for you if SD13 does X in August?", and there's a signup deadline, and Mom sabotages it by delaying until after the signup and then saying "Oh, I'm totally OK with it!" thus making me the bad guy for missing the signup for SD13 -- if that makes sense.

Instead, we emailed: "Hey, SD13 wants to do X activity during your time in August, let me know your thoughts by Wednesday July 7th; if I don't hear from you by then, I'll assume you're taking the lead on figuring out if it works". (We are OK if Mom says No, but not OK if she never responds. If she doesn't respond by the 7th then I'm fine with telling SD13 "It is 100% up to Mom now")

So, if you have to communicate with her, build in "If I don't get an email back from you by August 31st, I'll assume that X, Y, Z". And if you have some legal stuff waiting on her foot-dragging, build in "If you don't respond in email or writing by Day, Time, then Consequence".

You have to build these things so you aren't dependent on her cooperation to move forward. Key takeaway: build messages/documents so that her nonresponse is a response allowing you to do what you need to do.

Hope that helps;

kells76

Kells76- this is such helpful advice. Thank you!

Okay, I let my lawyers know to provide deadlines for written communication and consequences for a lack of response. If I'm successful in getting the dog back, I'm going to ask my lawyers to ask the judge for a court order with a date to return the dog, and include a police escort, so there's no funny business. I wouldn't put it past her to even defy that, but at that point there would be financial consequences, etc.

I agree wholeheartedly with your feeling that she may shoot herself in the foot to keep feeling in control. She's done that already. She could have signed a settlement letter, taken 1 dog and given me my dog, and had a $3000 cash payment in hand (plus all the furniture and the money she withdrew from the joint accounts.)

Instead, she bullied and harassed my lawyers, and here we are. She'd either have to self rep in court or pay $5000 to a lawyer just to start the legal process. She'd be losing money or self representing when she has no idea what she's doing and go toe-to-toe with my lawyer, a senior partner of a legal firm. If I were her, I know what I'd do. But she doesn't follow logic, just feeling.