I just feel so incredibly lonely and betrayed.

[babyducks]

He then said could he come now. recycling what is the next phase of his cycle: we can meet as sex buddies,  we're better like that.  I had gone to another room and hadn't answered when I came back, he had deleted the messages, I asked what he had put but he said nevermind. (i'd seen the notification and read messages on my home screen but hadnt been on whatsapp so he didnt know I'd read them). Then he asked if I had packed his things. Asking if I missed him, if i missed him for him or just missed sex. He said he only missed sex.  Then asked again about my mum.  Said he was tired and went to bed.

How do you feel about how this is developing?   Are you okay with him just returning as if nothing happened?     Are you okay with the suggestion of being sex buddies?

how are you responding to him when he talks like this?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[blackorchid]

How do you feel about how this is developing?   Are you okay with him just returning as if nothing happened?     Are you okay with the suggestion of being sex buddies?

how are you responding to him when he talks like this?

I don’t feel great and I feel like I’m in limbo. I feel like if initiate contact he will pull away and so im stuck waiting. But I don’t even know if/when he will contact again. Nothing since he left for work after turning up drunk.

I don’t like the suggestion of sex buddies but that seems to be his pattern of how he returns from past experience.

As he deleted the message I made out that I hadn’t seen it. My responses are pretty short. I guess I don’t want to say anything that can be misinterpreted and him pull away again

[formflier]

Well, there are some things where "ambiguity" is ok in relationships and other things where clarity is important, even if it is upsetting to the other party.

Plus, different people have different values, so please don't hear judgment either way about "sex buddies" being ok or not ok.  It really doesn't matter what FF would say about that...I'm much more interested in how blackorchird feels about that.

Since you have a safe place (here at BPDfamily), are you up for working out how big a deal or "dealbreaker" this is for you?

I would encourage you to break this into two parts.

1.  Clarify your values about this.
then and only then
2.  We can talk about how to communicate these values.

How does this idea sound?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Well, there are some things where "ambiguity" is ok in relationships and other things where clarity is important, even if it is upsetting to the other party.

Plus, different people have different values, so please don't hear judgment either way about "sex buddies" being ok or not ok.  It really doesn't matter what FF would say about that...I'm much more interested in how blackorchird feels about that.

Since you have a safe place (here at BPDfamily), are you up for working out how big a deal or "dealbreaker" this is for you?

I would encourage you to break this into two parts.

1.  Clarify your values about this.
then and only then
2.  We can talk about how to communicate these values.

How does this idea sound?

Best,

FF

Thank you FF for creating such a safe space in which to answer this. 

I don’t love the idea of this but have done it in the past as it does always seem to be his stepping stone to coming back. I was thinking about it last night and reflecting on how baby ducks’ said he’s scared of his emotions and scared of raging (why he wanted me out the house to collect his things). Maybe this is his way of testing the waters and controlling his emotions? If

As pathetic as it sounds part of me thinks at least this way I get to see him and if it leads to a resolution all the better. It’s been a long 6 weeks and I just feel like if this leads to him coming back then ok

[babyducks]

blackorchid

Maybe this is his way of testing the waters and controlling his emotions?

this quote below is from Margalis Fjelstad's book: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.   You mentioned you were going to get the book on kindle.   the list really accurately displays how a person with BPD processes their emotions.   it describes how the illness functions and the emotional instability it creates.     people with BPD have harmfully intense chaotic emotions and maladaptive ways of coping.   its not a deliberate decision...pwBPD don't consciously think "oh I am going avoid feeling X by doing Y.   

people with BPD have:

- Emotional neediness, which may be covered up by a facade of independence
- Sudden emotional outbursts of rage and despair that seem random
- Belief that the emotions of the moment are totally accurate and will last forever
- Inaccurate memory of emotional events, even changing the meaning of the events after the fact
- Seeing their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions
- Believing that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change
- Ongoing intense anxiety or fear

I would say he is definitely testing the waters.   in the same way he has done it in the past.   he has a sudden emotional outburst of rage and despair.   he ends the relationship abruptly with a lot of push / pull about his stuff.    he blames his emotions on you.   he blames the chaos on you.   you absorb the chaos and blame but get very tired.    once the emotional crisis begins to subside he begins to drift back.

I would not say he is controlling his emotions.    I would say he is viewing events in ways that make him feel more comfortable at your expense.

You mentioned that both your parents had a drinking problem.    What the experts at CODA,org  tell us is that children who grew up in families where addictions existed have our own deeply rooted behaviors.    typically we attempt to use others – our mates, friends, and even our children, as our sole source of identity, value and well being, and as a way of trying to restore within us the emotional losses from our childhoods.

'ducks

[formflier]

It’s been a long 6 weeks and I just feel like if this leads to him coming back then ok

It is entirely possible this leads to him coming back.  (how many leaving and coming back cycles so far?)

It is also entirely LIKELY that this would result in little change in the "dynamic" or the "dance" you guys do in your relationship.

I feel like you and I have built some rapport, so please allow me to suggest from where I'm sitting...you are NOT a fan of "the dance" you guys do in the relationship.  Is that a fair statement?

Very different than saying you don't want a relationship with him anymore.

I want to make sure I accurately understand your feelings first, then work on next steps.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Honestly too many leaving and coming back cycles to count. It was around 1 every 9 months since I moved here in 2012. Last year was the first year that he didn’t do it. The last one was august 2019

It is also entirely LIKELY that this would result in little change in the "dynamic" or the "dance" you guys do in your relationship.

I feel like you and I have built some rapport, so please allow me to suggest from where I'm sitting...you are NOT a fan of "the dance" you guys do in the relationship.  Is that a fair statement?

Yes I would say that that’s a fair statement. More than a fair statement. And hear we have a built up a rapport FF and I am so grateful for your support here

[blackorchid]

He messaged me in the night “what are you doing”. Around 1am. For once I had actually fell asleep. Have been quite insomniac-like since he left. I woke at 4:30 and said I was sleeping. He had been online around 10 mins earlier, so I guess he’s not sleeping either. When he woke up this morning he apologised for disturbing me. I said it didn’t disturb me. This evening he’s messaged the usual. How’s the dog. How are you.

[formflier]

Do you normally check your phone when you wake up like that?

I wonder if that might be contributing to insomnia. 

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

You could be right…intend to wake and look at phone to see the time

[blackorchid]

Does anyone have any ideas on what to say when he says he misses our dog?

[blackorchid]

Or what to reply to “do you believe we’ve finished? “

[formflier]

Well, let's start out by asking what you would like to say?  From there perhaps we can change it a bit depending on your goal.

If your goal is to get back together with him, then I would recommend saying something neutral and perhaps letting him know when you are taking the dog for a walk to the park, let him know he is welcome.

Perhaps he comes..you can keep it light and casual.

For the "do you believe we've finished"...honestly I'd ask him what that means.

Maybe "not sure what you mean by that?"

or

"Perhaps we could chat about this more while walking the dog."

Take a big picture look for a moment.  Anything you can do to get away from cryptic communication is likely better.  All you can do is give him opportunities for better and try to not get "hooked" by the weird/cryptic stuff.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Thanks FF that makes sense… I’ll try that.

[blackorchid]

He said he was going to come after work yesterday, then late afternoon he received a message for me from my dads friend. Think he got our numbers confused. He called me about the message and said maybe I will come maybe I won’t. Then he didn’t turn up. He said he might come later as he’s going to meet his cousin who is passing through the city on their way to vacation. I called him later. He said he wasn’t coming. Got annoyed for talking and hung up.

Today he messaged me “hi”
I kept it light: hi how are you

He replied fine. Then half an hour later sent have you packed my things.

[formflier]

Have you invited him on a dog walk yet?

The key is that you go and walk/enjoy..etc etc...regardless of if he shows up.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

No as he messaged to say he was coming, I didn’t say it. He’s just messaged a few minutes ago asking if my family will come this summer. I said not atm, England still had Turkey on the red list. What about yours. He said they have nowhere to stay. I said they could stay here. He’s just answered. No you’re there so they can’t….

He knows what time and where I walk With her every day. I feel like putting it into conversation now is a bit out of context. I’m thinking to wait till the next time he mentions her?

[formflier]

Your feelings and desires are WORTH advocating for.  No reason to have to wait and "sneak them in" here and there.

Maybe switch it up and take the dog at a different time on an extra walk. 

I have a hard time putting my finger on it, but there is something about the home and his stuff there that is triggering or he is trying to do a "power thing" over.  Hopefully someone else sees this and can perhaps flesh it out a bit better.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Your feelings and desires are WORTH advocating for.  No reason to have to wait and "sneak them in" here and there.

Maybe switch it up and take the dog at a different time on an extra walk. 

I have a hard time putting my finger on it, but there is something about the home and his stuff there that is triggering or he is trying to do a "power thing" over.  Hopefully someone else sees this and can perhaps flesh it out a bit better.

Best,

FF

I wish I could walk her at a different time, but summer temperature limit is to early mornings and late nights, which is adding to my tiredness

[blackorchid]

I have a hard time putting my finger on it, but there is something about the home and his stuff there that is triggering or he is trying to do a "power thing" over.  Hopefully someone else sees this and can perhaps flesh it out a bit better.

Best,

FF

Yes I would love anyone’s insight into what’s going on there. I’m not sure if it’s a bit of a push/pull cycle. He gets one cm closer then pulls back with talking about packing his things.
Or if its something else

[formflier]

Maybe push pull is part of it.  His stuff and the house seem to be constant issues.  So...I would recommend you ignore that (don't get drawn into those discussions) and offer to get together at other locations.

Lots of this is "tea leaf reading".  Anyway..it's worth a try.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I think tea leaf reading would be clearer and easier 

He turned up last night. Very drunk. Misses me etc.

Now he’s woken up and is packing another bag of stuff. Saying we’re better as friends.

Whiplash doesn’t even cover it

[blackorchid]

Ok he just left. He turned up extremely drunk. Ordered some food to sober up. Then he wanted to make out. Saying he missed me. He got a call. Then fell asleep on my lap on the sofa. The food arrived I woke him up, barely. He ate he slept. Woke up in the morning. Passionately kissed me. Then said we’re better like this. As friends. When we were together we weren’t like this. Went to shower and was rushing for the work bus. But still found 5-10 mins to pack another bag. Gave me a hug. Another kiss. I was uptight, tense. He felt it. Don’t be angry with me he said. And left

[blackorchid]

Oh and as he was getting up. He was curious about my mum again. Why isn’t she messaging me? She always messages me? I said she’s stressed, she’s got lots of appointments she’s found a lump. She’s worried. That’s why. Again it’s like he’s not even listening to what I’m saying. Just replies but why isn’t she messaging me. She must know I’ve left. That’s why. I just replied she’s stressed. Again he wanted to know why she’s not messaging him, she always messaged him and they would talk but now silence. I just said she’s found a lump. He said I hope she’s ok and went to shower.

Also last night and again this morning I was quizzed if I’d been with other men and hit with a resounding I don’t believe you

[babyducks]

oh my goodness blackorchid.

I find your recent posts concerning.

In a way your posts remind me of another member here.   She was in very difficult circumstances with her husband who was somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum.

She often wanted us to tell her, what she could say or do to appease him.   What would make him happy so he would stay with her.   Or how to fix him.    

Of course we couldn't do that.      Even if there were some magic set of words or tricks, would it be appropriate to give them to her, knowing she would use to continue a very unhealthy situation?

Does your mother know he has left again?

Can you tell us clearly and simply where are your boundaries around his behavior?    

Clearly you don't think this is okay because if you did, you wouldn't be posting here.

'ducks

[blackorchid]

Yes she knows.

Boundaries are kinda non existent atm I guess.

No I don’t think this behaviour is ok.

It’s exhausting me and I’m doing what I can to take care of me.

It’s ironic because the argument started because of his drinking. (Which of course I was the problem and the reason for drinking). Now he’s left it looks like he’s drinking more than ever before. Only now I’m less angry and more worried and concerned.

[formflier]

How many times has the turned up at your place drunk and you've turned him away?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I haven’t. For him to get here he has to spend an obscene amount on a taxi. He’s living in the next town. So I wouldn’t feel like I could turn him away

[formflier]

What benefit is there to you and the relationship for you to spend time around him (in your home or out) when he is drunk?

Back to the most recent story.  Did he call you before he spent all that money on a taxi to make sure you are home?  Did he ask if this is ok?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

For this relationship to change you have to be the one to change.     You have to be the one to change it.   

He isn't going to do it.   This is not 100% on him.   You are going to have to take ownership of better behavior and better choices.

If you make better choices and model better behavior he may follow you down the path to a more stable relationship.    He may not.    That is a risk you'll have to take.   if you keep doing the same things you have been doing,... you are going to get the same treatment you have always gotten.

It is also entirely LIKELY that this would result in little change in the "dynamic" or the "dance" you guys do in your relationship.

He shows up very drunk.    This is a reoccurring pattern.   He has been drinking to excess for a while now.    You've fought about this in the recent past.   Drinking is hard for you because of your family history.    Still you are more concerned about the money he spent on the taxi than on your comfort and safety in your own home?    Can you help me understand why his decision to drink and spend an obscene amount of money on a taxi means you should spoken too and treated in ways that most would consider abuse?   

Your feelings and desires are WORTH advocating for.  No reason to have to wait and "sneak them in" here and there.

You've been very good at describing what he has said and done.   very thorough at describing what he is thinking..  I am still interested in hearing what you think and what you are doing.     You are part of this dynamic also and what you feel and what you think are worth advocating for.     If you can't advocate for yourself here, on these boards where it is safe... you'll have a harder time doing it with him.   Consider this practice for doing it later in real life.

What are you doing to take care of yourself?    It takes a great deal of emotional strength to be in a relationship with a pwBPD and not be injured by it.    What are you doing to build or rebuild your emotional strength?

blackorchid I am going to speak plainly.     Just like we talked about upstream you are responsible for 100% of your 50% of the relationship.    If you allow him into the house very drunk, if you engage with him when he asks if you have been with other men, if you cuddle with him on the sofa before he passes out... then... lets be honest...you have a role in what happens too.    Can you agree with that?

If you want to see him when he isn't drunk and abusive, why not take FF advice and ask to spend time with the dog.   at a neutral place... some place in public where better behavior can occur?    if you want better behavior you will have to model it and create opportunities for it to happen.     What did you think was going to happen when he showed up drunk?    Did you think anything positive was going to occur from that?

'ducks