The talk seem to go really well, and I bet we talked for three hours

[formflier]

Mostly, I stood there and took it in silence.

Can we do a hypothetical? Let’s do a role-play… Let’s say you are her, and you are asking me how I have convinced you that I love you… Knowing your condition, what would you think would be best for me to say?

So...at some point part of "exhibiting strength" is uphold "boundaries".  One of my boundaries is I don't do circular conversations.  If I get to the 4th circle...I'm really ticked at myself.

You have to do 2 circles to have one...so really for me it's all about what I do on the third circle.

I bring this up because it sounds like she gets ticked and reaches back for "you threw me out".."you have a booger you won't pick"...etc etc and those have been talked to death already..right?

And listen..they are worth talking about, yet they are also worth moving past.

So that's what I "force".  Essentially a "do you want me to give you empathy, a hug and sorry"...or do we need to do "problem solving".  What I won't do...REGARDLESS OF COST...is discuss FF's failings...yet again.  (very different than arguing I have no failings)

Switching gears to your next question.

What to say in the moment?  I'll flip it and ask a bigger question, "should you say anything in the moment".  You trying to explain that you love her is going to be invalidating in that moment..you know that. 

I would probably say "This moment is so intense, I don't know what to say right now.  I'd like to give you a hug and think about all you've said for a while."

That's probably something along the lines of what I would say.

Best,

FF

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Mr. Kelly]

So...at some point part of "exhibiting strength" is uphold "boundaries".  One of my boundaries is I don't do circular conversations.  If I get to the 4th circle...I'm really ticked at myself.

You have to do 2 circles to have one...so really for me it's all about what I do on the third circle.

I bring this up because it sounds like she gets ticked and reaches back for "you threw me out".."you have a booger you won't pick"...etc etc and those have been talked to death already..right?

And listen..they are worth talking about, yet they are also worth moving past.

So that's what I "force".  Essentially a "do you want me to give you empathy, a hug and sorry"...or do we need to do "problem solving".  What I won't do...REGARDLESS OF COST...is discuss FF's failings...yet again.  (very different than arguing I have no failings)

Switching gears to your next question.

What to say in the moment?  I'll flip it and ask a bigger question, "should you say anything in the moment".  You trying to explain that you love her is going to be invalidating in that moment..you know that. 

I would probably say "This moment is so intense, I don't know what to say right now.  I'd like to give you a hug and think about all you've said for a while."

That's probably something along the lines of what I would say.

Best,

FF

Excellent examples, FF.

I didn’t do those things.  I tried, for the millionth time, to explain my language of love… Meaning, I have been there for her over and over and have never left. To me, that’s one of the biggest acts of love I could give her. She could not interpret it that way, as you guys are seeing.  I’m still having a hard time seeing how that would trigger her or invalidate her. I’m a little stumped on this one, still.

I still am not good at that. If she wants me to prove how I love her, I have typically come up with examples. Time and time again. Usually, I believe my examples have connected with her, and I think it helps calm her down to come head to head with concrete examples of how her and I can really work well together as a team. I didn’t really go that far this time around. I said very little, other than what you already know.

Let me think if there’s anything else I can remember that we talked about yesterday.

I said all the things I’ve said many times to her, and perhaps to you guys…

“I can’t change what has happened in the past, I have tried really hard to learn from it and move forward, and I think I’ve done a pretty good job with that, and you have even said so.  Tell me what more I might be able to do”.

And…

“I believe we can get beyond this with hard work. We have seen it before, and I have felt things improving over time. You have said so yourself. In the mental health field, it is often believed that couples can get stronger after they have fought hard to overcome these kinds of obstacles.”

I think I may have said that after she said that she didn’t think there was any way back from her not trusting me. She said that while looking into my eyes multiple times. “I just don’t trust you, and I don’t trust that you’ll never do something like that again, like throw me out at 3 AM, or write something biased about me in a text to one of your friends. I don’t even know if I could ever face your friends again, because I don’t know what crap you’ve been saying to them and how you’ve been spinning it, because what you said to your friend and that text was a complete butchery of what really happened, and you left out complete details that show the context of what actually happened, and you did it as a pity party“

She is right, to an extent. I said a lot more in the text that was easily interpreted to sharing the blame for what happened the night before, when I “threw her out“.  Several times since then, we have talked in detail about that, and I’ve been really honest that I felt hugely traumatized that night, and the next morning I sent that text to my friend because I just needed someone to validate my position and listen to what I was saying.  We had just gotten together with my distant friend that day, which was the first time they met my GF, I was looking for sympathy and pity party. She was right, and I even said so. And I told her I was in such a bad space that I wasn’t thinking clearly and I was hugely hurt by what happened the night before.  I couldn’t have been more honest. I don’t know what else I could have said to ease her pain and helped her with her trust. I don’t think there’s anything more I could’ve said.

She can’t really understand why I would be hurt by what happened the night before:  Her being incapable of hearing what I was trying to tell her prior to the split… Her taking everything I was saying gently to her as criticism and getting highly reactive and defensive… and her eventually turning away from me and telling me that we were basically done and that she didn’t think she wanted to continue with me anymore.

This escalated to the point, and I was unable to recognize what was happening, that I started to have a mental meltdown and felt in such pain that I had no choice, so I thought, to suggest that she leave just to alleviate my mental torture. I even said to her last night that her leaving that night was the last thing I ever wanted her to do. I said that to her multiple times before, and she seems surprised to hear me say that, as if she was thinking… Well what in the fook did you say that to me for then?

When I have repeatedly told her that I behaved like that because I was encountering my own trigger and mental health collapse, she fails to truly hear what I am saying, and even last night she said that I have never given her a valid excuse as to why I did those things. I don’t think there’s much better of an excuse than to tell someone that you had a mental collapse and you were going through a terrible traumatic experience. It wasn’t good enough for her. It’s almost as if her brain has a shield on it to prevent her from really understanding that I have mental collapses, as well.

She asked me again last night if I had a better explanation than I had given her before, and I avoided the question.

So what else…

She tried to validate that calling me names during her texts was perfectly appropriate, because she said some of my behavior was narcissistic… I think she was reaching at straws, because she called me a lot more names in her texts… But as mentioned, she seemed to expect last night that I knew that she was saying those things in anger, which I knew to be true, but that was the first time she had ever said it out loud. It’s as if I was supposed to know that. I didn’t really respond much to that, other than to say, “ this is the first time that you have said that you said those things in anger, and I wish you would have said that a while ago.“ That’s really all I said in response.

I did suggest the therapy thing… But that went over like a ton of bricks.

I don’t really remember a lot more that I said. As mentioned, I did mostly listening. It’s hard to be hugely empathetic when someone is throwing darts at you. She would probably punch me in the face if I asked her some thing like does she need a hug.  I know I that’s not the right phraseology.

I think it will be a steep learning curve, if I ever do have another chance to talk to this girl.

I think I’ve asked on this site many times before, and I know there’s no way to know for sure, but if you were betting men, would you bet on hearing from this girl again?

[formflier]

I'm gonna bet big...BIIIIIIIIGGGG on hearing from her again.

Best,

FF

[once removed]

Maybe it’s just meant to be this way. It seems pretty stupid, but maybe me trying to figure all of this out is pretty pointless.

figuring it all out will aid you greatly in recovery (assuming the worst). understanding it from her perspective, as well as yours, as well as that of a more objective outsider, in the long run, takes the sting out, it puts the "coulda woulda shouldas" to rest (because its never about one thing), and there will be lessons you can carry into the next relationship that will make a better relationship more possible, and you an even better partner. finding that balance, for me, was closure.

its probably a little soon to be doing that, even if you wanted to in the moment. but when a relationship fails, its a failure to connect, or to resolve conflict. it isnt (usually) one persons fault, and some conflicts just cant be resolved.

How do I validate her in times like this? Is it even possible?

validation isnt about finding magic words to soothe someone. start from that premise.

one of the early concepts i was introduced to that helped me get it was the notion that "feelings are always valid". feelings may be extreme/disproportionate. conclusions about the feelings (not the same as the feelings themselves) may be extreme or flat out wrong.

and people with bpd traits feel everything on an extreme level. they are also easily prone to feeling invalidated (primarily the result of many, many insecurities). they are highly sensitive people (you and i may be highly sensitive people, if not bpd). and there are a lot of things, fears, insecurities, that tend to drive those feelings to extreme levels. underneath it all, the underlying feeling is generally valid.

validation is about first accepting that someone feels the way they feel, and then empathizing with it; putting yourself in their shoes and getting where they are coming from, and why they feel the way they feel.

begin by accepting that "throwing her out" (for lack of a better term) really hurt her. it felt like a huge betrayal. it felt personal. it felt like being kicked out by you, like being evicted by you. it hurt her enough that it has stuck with her for a very long time. remember, this is someone with lifelong, above average fears of abandonment. it further hurt her that you didnt call to check up to make sure she got home, a double whammy. virtually all women, generally more than men, look for signs that a relationship may not last. this was one such sign for her.

now, i dont know all the details about that night, but i gather she was being pretty ridiculous and hurtful, and i understand why you did it. in fact, i kicked my ex out, or left, or tried to do either one of those things, many, many times. i understand your side of it.

telling her your side of it is not validating. it may even be invalidating, at least in the moment. thats not to say there isnt a time or place to tell your side of it. the question, when dealing with a highly sensitive person, is how, and when, and when they (anyone) are worked up and most wanting to be heard is often the worst time. loving someone with bpd is generally about learning to be an even better listener.

its also not to say she wasnt totally unreasonable about it. the fact is, she was so hurt by it, that she couldnt see beyond that hurt (weve all been there. think about a time that you were. people with bpd traits are like that, about the big stuff, and what seems to us, like the small stuff). maybe, at times, she could, but ultimately, she couldnt.

ill give you an example. my ex and i fought a lot about me looking at porn. its a long story, full of attempts on both our parts to resolve the issue, full of hours long fights, full of each of us explaining, time and time again, our positions on it, it includes broken promises (on both sides), it even includes the fun time she found (the next morning) that i had looked the previous night, and her screaming bloody murder outside of my home, very early in the morning, causing my neighbors to come outside. good times.

eventually, a year or so before we broke up, i told her i was done with the issue, done fighting about it, and that i was going to look. that if that was a significant enough problem, that i understood if she couldnt continue the relationship (she mostly just heard this as me saying porn was more important than her. it wasnt, to me, but i can understand exactly why she felt that way). some time before we did break up, she told me how much that broke her, hurt her, and caused her lingering resentment toward me. i can understand that. i dont agree with all of her conclusions (and i can tell you my own very different side, i can tell you about all of her snooping, and i can tell you about her numerous double standards), but it pained me to know that it had done that to her.

it was one of a number of conflicts we couldnt resolve, and things we couldnt accept about each other; not necessarily the particular one, but it was a big contributor. it was something she couldnt get past. and i think her feelings about it were absolutely valid. its not a dissimilar example, really. a lot of us have these stories about things our loved ones (past or present) couldnt/cant get past. the fact that some remain together in spite of it tells you that a breakup is usually about more than one "thing".

as for her insecurity about your ex wife? thats tough. people with bpd traits, some more than others, can be especially jealous, possessive, insecure, what have you. mine was, and mine actually accused me of the same thing with an ex, which was preposterous. there are ways of dealing with a jealous person. it doesnt mean you ever make the jealousy go away, or that she would never have been insecure about your ex wife, and continued to bring it up. accomplishing that was/is pretty unlikely. validating also does not mean agreeing; you dont want to agree with or fuel what is a preposterous perception.

validating in that case, is again, about understanding the underlying feeling thats driving it. maybe she didnt feel prioritized by you. maybe she felt insignificant or second place. this happens all the time in sort of blended families, or when trying to blend families. its hard to say, and you would likely have better insight on how she felt (in retrospect, between the lines and conclusions and hyperbole, she probably told you more clearly than it might seem), but any of those things are valid feelings any of us might experience.

validating is about finding the underlying feeling, accepting it, getting it, and demonstrating that. what you do, or say, beyond that, depends.

it is completely unrealistic, by the way, that you would never hear from her again.

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey there…

Nothing new to report in the saga.

I feel incredibly alone and abandoned. I had to take off for an overnight trip up into the mountains, because it seems the only time that I feel at peace is when I’m moving. Somewhere else. I dreaded coming back this afternoon, it was so depressing.

I’m doing only marginally OK when my brain is occupied with something. Almost the second that my brain is not preoccupied with something profound sadness rolls in.  Profound.

It’s almost unfathomable to think that this girl is likely no longer part of my life. It felt almost like a given that I would call her up tonight and tell her about my trip to the mountains, and how my day was and how my  band mate friends are doing, who she really loved, but would not go near for the last eight months, because she was afraid that I told them some thing biased and inflammatory. Of course, that was all my fault.

And then the reality hits. Her brain just fried out somehow and now she’s pretty much gone.

It is almost bizarre that in many ways, she is almost two distinctly different people. She can be this decent soft thoughtful girl, and then as fast as lightning can strike, she is this broken, nasty and hostile woman.  Sometimes it’s hard to see even the gray in between.

I guess I have felt like this before, thinking that this girl was gone pretty much forever, until she wasn’t. I felt exactly the same. No hope. I have felt this many times, and I just don’t know how many times I can feel it again, Despite how terribly sad and lonely I feel.

One step in front of the other. Breathe. Take another step. Breathe again. Try to eat and sleep. Try to extract as much joy as possible from the large amount of darkness. That’s my existence right now.

No one should be putting this amount of energy into a dysfunctional relationship, and its demise. On the other hand, this feels like a death in my family, which in many ways it is.  A huge chunk of my world is basically gone. That just doesn’t seem right.

[once removed]

any update?