Hello

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So..I think it's relevant/helpful as well.

If you could go back in time..what would you do differently?

No clue, but this started the downward roll and she's reverted completely and seems to have lost all progress of her classes...

If I could lie I might just have told her I wasn't talking to him.. but I'm not really capable of that.

I could have left her word choice alone and not challenged her on what we have talked about in the past, but I hadn't realized she had a new narrative and I was trying to steer the conversation into a direction where she felt less betrayed. 

Or maybe I just didn't like her "translation as truth" narrative and was being argumentative.  But he is the only friend I have left and it is annoying that she has chosen to distort a joke as an excuse to isolate me from my last friend.  But if I'd had a good SET piece, I would likely have tried that first.

[Ventak]

So..I think it's relevant/helpful as well.

If you could go back in time..what would you do differently?

No clue, but this started the downward roll and she's reverted completely and seems to have lost all progress of her classes...

If I could lie I might just have told her I wasn't talking to him.. but I'm not really capable of that.

I could have left her word choice alone and not challenged her on what we have talked about in the past, but I hadn't realized she had a new narrative and I was trying to steer the conversation into a direction where she felt less betrayed. 

Or maybe I just didn't like her "translation as truth" narrative and was being argumentative.  But he is the only friend I have left and it is annoying that she has chosen to distort a joke as an excuse to isolate me from my last friend.  But if I'd had a good SET piece, I would likely have tried that first.

[babyducks]

My partner has just let me know that she feels like I’m just letting her rot and die in her room. She said’ you really need to read some books on how to support a partner with depression’.

Is this true?   Is this accurate?    Is this even possible?   are you letting her "rot and die"?   Or are you instead changing your work schedule, handling all the bills, and doing most of the child care?    are you coming here and working towards a better and deeper understanding?    so again is this an accurate reflection of reality or is it instead something a mentally ill person would say reflecting a distorted reality?    Is this FOG?

Seriously Tiller lets pull this apart.    Is it actually even physically possible to do more to support her than you are?   our partners with mental illness often say things that reflect a distorted reality.  they are often painful to hear.    and they often end up pressing our caretaker buttons.    this is where we have to look at our own part in this dysfunction.     this is where we have to look at where our responsibilities begin and end.    can you take a couple of deep breaths and let us know what you feel your responsibilities are to your partner?

[Tiller]

I know how much I do for our family, and I’m getting pretty tired of shouldering the load without a bit of support from my partner. I also recognise that at the moment it’s unlikely that this is going to change.

I just finally got her to have a proper talk with me and it was just a rant about how utterly f@cked we are and how we souls have never left adarwin and that basically it was my fault for wanting to leave, although it was very much a joint decision at the time.
She also used the fact that no one has not iced that she’s been bed ridden for the past 2 weeks as evidenced that we have no friends and nobody cares. Stupidly I took the bait and suggested that if she were to maybe reach out to some people then they’d know. But this led to her yelling at me saying ‘how dare you tell me that, you have no idea about how unfair other people are with this kind of thing, they’ll just drop you as soon as they get a whiff of the fact that you’re unhappy.”

She’s even stopped contacting her one friend who’d supported her though everything because she’s worried she’ll tire of her and will probably just side with me. Very confusing.

She’s just running around in circles in her head of what would make things better, but when prodded a bit further it turns out that nothing will make things better.

Coming back to the question of whether there is anything else I could be doing? I just don’t know…there must be something o can do to help stop this not so merry go round of misery. Honestly letting her stay in her room while I focus on the kids needs feels like maybe the best thing I could be doing.

This is so unbelievably hard!

[formflier]

I was trying to steer the conversation into a direction where she felt less betrayed.  

Again..I think this kind of thing is relevant to everyone on here.  Actively trying to manage a disordered person's feelings is unlikely to work, most likely going to leave you feeling EXHAUSTED, and almost certainly will take energy away from caring for yourself.

I know someone has the question out there..."but aren't you teaching us to validate and say things better?"...isn't that trying to "manage" someone else's feelings.   (and I can see that point of view)
 
Usually when we break down attempts to "manage" another person's feelings you can "see" the "argument".  The fixer is putting things in such a way as to "argue" that the pwBPD is "wrong" to feel that way. (at least the pwBPD experiences it that way)

The core of "validation" is to set aside right and wrong and let them know feelings..their feelings..are important.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Coming back to the question of whether there is anything else I could be doing? 

This is so unbelievably hard!

I wonder if there are things you are doing...that maybe you should stop doing or are not productive.  What do you think?

Yes...this is very hard stuff!

Best,

FF

[Tiller]

Yes, I’m certain you are right. But which things to start with?

[formflier]

Yes, I’m certain you are right. But which things to start with?

Good question...coming back at ya. 

Look for places you put a lot of effort into...you tried so hard to make it better and then...it blew up in your face.

Can you share a few of those? 

Best,

FF

[Tiller]

I the fact that I do all the house work and am more or less parenting by myself is a good example, I’m facilitating her staying disconnection by taking up all the slack, but if I don’t it impacts badly on the kids. I really want to go fishing with a friend on Sunday, and all very well for me to say I need to do this to look after myself, but if that has a negative impact on my kids is it worth it?

[Tiller]

It feels like she’s getting worse rather than better, just spending literally all of her time in bed watching Netflix. It’s so hard not to go into rescuer mode even if only for the selfish reason that our house feels so miserable. She’s only got negative things to say about everything and it’s making my parenting that much more difficult. Leaving her by herself feel wrong too. I’m at a loss as to what I can do to break a circuit…

[babyducks]

Coming back to the question of whether there is anything else I could be doing? I just don’t know…there must be something o can do to help stop this not so merry go round of misery. Honestly letting her stay in her room while I focus on the kids needs feels like maybe the best thing I could be doing.

of course.   of course Tiller.     the question about should you or could you do more was meant to be partially rhetorical.   I should have phrased it better.    sorry about that.

this is very difficult stuff.   bpd is a very serious mental illness.   it turns our lives upside down many times.   and you are shouldering a lot of load right now.     there are absolutely no simple answers.   and many times the solutions that are available seem like picking the lesser evil.

I’m facilitating her staying disconnection by taking up all the slack, but if I don’t it impacts badly on the kids.

It’s so hard not to go into rescuer mode even if only for the selfish reason that our house feels so miserable. . Leaving her by herself feel wrong too. I’m at a loss as to what I can do to break a circuit…

its hard to split the difference... because there is truth on both sides of this.   picking up all the slack does enable her to stay in bed watching Netflix.     on the other hand there is that natural tug to help some one who is struggling.   it would be great to find a compromise solution that YOU can feel comfortable with.    it doesn't sound like your partner is willing or able to compromise right now.   there is always that trap of 'if we have one more conversation she will see my point of view and we can change this'.     when that one more conversation doesn't help reach any compromise solution is it time to start to limit how much energy and effort you put into having them?     

I would suggest you make your priorities simple.     what can you do to take good care of yourself and the kids today?   if the atmosphere in the house is toxic... would a trip to the park be a good idea?    don't try and solve all the problems in one 24 hour period.     dial everything down to the simplest possible items.    have the kids eaten a good healthy meal today?    got some outdoor time in?    even if its only 30 minutes in the back yard with a ball?       have you eaten?   slept?    had some down time?   even if it is only 30 minutes in the back yard?

it is terribly frustrating when our partners have a mental health crisis.    its upsetting and scary.     its stressful.     all of us struggle to do the right thing.    all of us fight with the belief that if we only say the right things the right way then our partners will snap too and see the light.    that is not how mental illness works.   the distorted and disordered reality they are functioning in can't be talked away by us.    and its exhausting to try.      just recognizing the difference in the perceptions of reality is a huge huge thing to grapple with.

some of the best advice I ever got was to slow things down.   to try in live in 'one day at a time' increments.   to know what I could do for the next 24 hours and only focus on that.    to not try to fix everything all at once.    it lessens the stress.

hang in there and keep posting.   we are listening.

'ducks

[formflier]

Can you explain more about the negative effects on the kids if you go fishing with a buddy?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Is this a one-on-one fishing trip?  If there are other families, could you bring your children along, presuming their safety around water is ensured?

How demanding is she about who cares for the kids?  Would leaving them in the care of others, such as your buddy's family, for a few hours trigger her into overreactions and confrontations?

[formflier]

And since she has made a choice to confine herself to the bed and not communicate much, why involve her in all this? 

Either take kiddos or set up the childcare yourself. 

How would she likely react to this?

Best,

FF

[Tiller]

I got a message about me going fishing saying that she’s got the message loud and clear that I’d prefer to spend time with my friends than her.

When I spoke to her tonight she accused me of not being interested in helping her. Being passive and frozen. She blamed me for not ‘getting into the trenches’ with her, and blamed me for having made her move here five years ago.

She then went in to say we have to go, that there is no other choice. I explain that I thought about it a great deal and do t think that’s in the rest of the family’s best interest. She responded ‘so then you’re just happy to let me die her in bed instead?

When I noted that I’ve found it difficult to talk lately because every night I’ve been told to leave and go to bed and when I’ve tried to get her to participate in our family life I’ve just been given a flat no. She actually said that she wants me to take control. I got a bit defensive at this point, and noted that I have taken over all parenting and household duties and that I can take control of her life for her, I can get her a career, I can’t make her feel ok here or anywhere else. That’s just not in my power.

She kept going accusing me of being a bad partner and weak passive person. At this point I put a limit down and said I wont be able
To continue talking now if her verbal abuse continued at which point I left.

[babyducks]

How did you feel about the messages she delivered to you?

How do feel about how the conversation went?

You've described her emotions and thoughts very well.    What I am asking about is what you are feeling and thinking.    this is very tough stuff to go through.   I have been on the receiving end of those exchanges.   I know exactly how difficult this is.    How are you?   What would you like to see happen?

[formflier]

It's important for you to understand your feelings and how they may or may not have changed, because that will help us guide you to say more effective things when these type of "accusations" get made.

Best,

FF

[Tiller]

I felt horrible. I felt like all the slack I’ve been taking up has been completely ignored. I feel like she wants me to get in there and experience her depression alongside her and I don’t really know how to do that or if it’s of any use. I feel like my entire experience of life and needs and wants are being overshadowed by hers.

I also feel really confused about what I should do.

I don’t really think the conversation went very well, but at the same time I did express some boundaries. Being told point blank that I am making things worse has left me feeling guilty that maybe I am and maybe I could be doing things more skilfully and lovingly?
I just don’t know what to do next

[GaGrl]

She has been in bed for, what now, three weeks? -- while you have taken on 100% of the parenting and household needs. You have lovingly checked in her, in spite of her rejection and verbal abuse.

She is deep into a depressive, dark period yet is refusing help.

What more do you think you can do?

Short of any suicidal ideation on her part, you can't really dress her and load her in the car and take her to a hospital for a psych check. SI may be the only thing that allows you to get help for her.

Have you spoken to anyone at a local psychiatric facility about options for a depressed patient who is not functioning but is not suicidal?

[babyducks]

Blame shifting is a common/typical symptom of BPD.   

People with BPD believe other people are responsible for their feelings and problems.    With no understanding of their role in their difficulties.

It can sound very credible.    But it's usually not.    Its an offloading of their own responsibility onto someone else.    Usually the target of blame is someone very close.   Parent , partner,  child.   

Its not usually possible to talk a pwBPD out of their target of blame.    Often talking about it only worsen conditions as the blame becomes more deeply engrained.

[Tiller]

I don’t really know what services are available without her being on board with it and at the moment she doesn’t see herself as having maternal problems. She feels like everything has been done to her.

She just gave me another round of telling me that I have to go figure out what to do to, to which I replied that I’m doing everything I can think of including making sure the kids are looked after and checking in with her as much as I can, to which she relied, well aren’t u ok mr f@cking perfect, we’ll done! I honestly don’t know what else I’m could be doing? Three weeks is a long time to be in this state and I honestly want to help her, but she doesn’t know how, I dont know how, and she feels like I’m just making it all about me.

[ForeverDad]

Short of any suicidal ideation on her part, you can't really dress her and load her in the car and take her to a hospital for a psych check. SI may be the only thing that allows you to get help for her.

Among my many stories in the final year or two of my marriage, I was at a gathering at my cousin's house.  After we left she started berating me that I talked too much with my cousin's wife and that there ought to be divorces and I marry her.  Fortunately our son was young and was asleep but she started hitting me on the head as I was driving.  Naturally I pulled over and she freaked out even more, saying we would get hit by the traffic behind us, then she threatened she'd run out onto the highway.  It was sort of a catch-22 so I drove on.  Oops, I missed our exit, drove on to the next exit which just so happened to have our local hospital.  I pulled up to the ER doors.  A nice young man came out and said two things...

• If she wouldn't come inside there was nothing they could do.
• If I didn't move my van from the emergency area, he would have to call the police.

You can't 'fix' her.  She is either using you so she can avoid work and life or she is sensitized to living in a close relationship with you or a list of other excuses.  (BPD is most evident in the closest of relationships and what is closer than a marriage?)  She will have to do something for herself but as long as you're catering to her she has no incentive to do that. Of course forcing consequences on her can raise quite a ruckus, that's called extinction burst, so be forewarned.  In my case my spouse stopped moaning and sobbing when we separated.  She had a new focus in life, blaming me and posturing as a helpless victim.  But she did stop moaning and sobbing in the guest bedroom.  So far as I know, some 15 years later, she hasn't done that since.

[babyducks]

She just gave me another round of telling me that I have to go figure out what to do to, to which I replied that I’m doing everything I can think of including making sure the kids are looked after and checking in with her as much as I can, to which she relied, well aren’t u ok mr f@cking perfect, we’ll done! I honestly don’t know what else I’m could be doing? Three weeks is a long time to be in this state and I honestly want to help her, but she doesn’t know how, I dont know how, and she feels like I’m just making it all about me.

have you ever heard of circular arguments?     I hadn't when I first came here.   I just knew that my partner and I had these long discussion that went round and round and I wasn't even sure what we were talking about half the time.

I am going to give you a link from the Tools and Skills board... click below when you are ready.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

a circular argument or a circular discussion can go on almost endlessly, repeating the same patterns with no resolution.

so what to do with a circular conversation?

Recognize the pattern. Acknowledge that you are in a conversation that is just going around and around.

Accept that feelings aren’t inherently good or bad - they just are. Feelings are a byproduct of circumstances, emotions, brain chemistry and a host of other things. You can’t control the way you feel, neither can the person with the personality disorder - the way you feel is just a natural reaction to your experience.

Switch from stating facts to stating feelings. Describe your own feelings not the other person's. Don't say "I feel like you are lying". That is not a feeling. That is an opinion. Say "I feel scared" or "I feel hurt". You don't have to say why, just say it. The wonderful thing about stating your feelings is that nobody can contradict you, although people might try. Nobody knows or owns your feelings except you.

End the conversation, calmly and with your dignity intact. If you like, you can say, "I need a break" or "Let's discuss this later" and end it there.

and here are some suggestions for what not to do:

Don't repeat anything you have already said.
Don't explain or respond to a question that you have already answered.
Don't engage in aggressive acts such as slamming doors or storming out.
Don't try to get the last word.
Don't wait for your feelings to be validated.
Don't try to change the other person's mind. Their thoughts and beliefs and feelings are their own.
Don't try to manipulate the other person's feelings. Don't try to make them feel guilt, remorse or sympathy.
Don't spend airtime describing the other person's behavior, feelings or actions - focus on describing your own needs and feelings.
Don’t wait for agreement or consensus to end the conversation.

how do you think this fits in with what you are experiencing?

'ducks

[Tiller]

I think that we do have quite a few circular arguments, but honestly I don't feel like I'm even arguing any more, they feel more like circular rants.

I'm spending so much energy trying not to invalidate her feelings that what I do say is coming out a little forced I think. She is now saying that she just cant listen to me because I'm speaking in such an emotionless monotone, but if I get more animated, it's likely that I'd just be adding fuel too the fire and questioning her distortions. On that point, I'm not sure whether I should be questioning her distortions?

An example would be that she hates living here because she has no friends and there is no work for her here. The reality, she gets lots of invitations from people to go to things, which she almost never goes to and with regards to a job, she feels that unless it's her absolute passion, she doesn't want to do it, but when I ask her what her passion is, she doesn't know and says she need to go back to study, but says we can't because we couldn't afford it. When I say, if money weren't an object, what would you like to study, what kind of job would you want? She responds that she has no idea, yet she feel like she is only employable in Darwin. I spoke to one of our family friends yesterday and told her subtly that my partner is feeling down and feels pretty isolated. She said that she invites here to lots of things, but she never comes.

Talking to here has now become even harder because she is fixated on the idea that I'm trying to make everything about me, when in fact I think she's trying to make everything about me. It's so confusing, frustrating and upsetting.

This is now the beginning of the fourth week that she has been bed ridden and I feel like something has to give, but should I just give up on being the catalyst for something changing?

[formflier]

  but honestly I don't feel like I'm even arguing any more, they feel more like circular rants.

  but should I just give up on being the catalyst for something changing?

No..you shouldn't give up.  If change is going to come, it will be from you. 

It's also important to realize that YOU may feel uncomfortable in the process AND that it is unlikely she will AGREE that what you are doing is helpful.

But where to start with change?

Perhaps for starters.  What positive impact has there been on your relationship by participating in circular rants/arguments with your pwBPD?

Best,

FF

[Tiller]

I know that it’s not helpful participating in circular arguments/rants, but it feels easier than saying, I feel like this conversation is just going around and around and I think we should stop it and take a breather.

I feel like I’m still waiting for her to make the change, because it feels like it’s her staying in bed and not participating in life. I’m not sure what changed I can make to help that, and I’m not sure what changes I can make to help me without making things feel worse for her.

She just keeps attacking me with what I’m doing wrong, there is part of me that still thinks, if I just listened better…or if I just moved back to Darwin….or if I just wait for this cycle to end…or if she would just talk to someone. Part of me also feels like if I keep avoiding getting into the drama triangle, perhaps she’ll be forced to try something new.

All comments / suggestions are very much welcome at this point!

[kells76]

Hey Tiller 

While I'm not formflier, I remember reading some of his tips on the boards here, and I'll add those on to a thought about boundaries.

Sometimes there is a misconception that boundaries only "count" if we announce or describe or explain them verbally to the other person. So, if I were new to the idea, I might think that I "had to" TELL the other person "hey, I am not doing x any more".

Interestingly, and, hopefully liberatingly, we don't have to explain or describe our boundaries to anyone else (and, thankfully, we don't have to get anyone else's agreement!)

Boundaries are things we can just do, without needing cooperation or agreement from anyone else. They're actions we do to manage our "self bubble". What is my responsibility and what is not.

So, of course it's feeling like UGGGHHH to "have to" tell your W "I think this is a circular conversation and we should stop". Someone might think "but isn't that a boundary?"

My take is: no, it's not, and it sort of "needs" agreement, which you likely won't get, so of course you're dreading saying that, and of course just keeping on participating seems "less worse".

Yet there is another option... Acting out your boundaries (without explaining or justifying).

Next time the conversation starts to circle, "doing" a boundary could look like saying "hey babe, I'm gonna go get some juice, want me to bring any back for you?" And then you leave the room. Notice you aren't being punitive about it (you're trying to be kind and offer her something too) but -- importantly -- you're doing the boundary of leaving circular conversations.

Or, you could say something like "hey babe... What new information do you have for me... I'm able to stay for new information..." (Or something more skilled than that). You leave the door open for her to stop the circle and get the conversation more productive, but if she has no new info to add, then "you are not able to stay if there is no new info". Again, doing a boundary instead of the dread of explaining or justifying it.

What are your thoughts so far?

[Tiller]

Hi Kells, thank for you input. I'm just running the scenario through my head of the circular discussion that my partner will likely bring up around wanting to move house and that this will make everything better (we did this only 6 months ago because my partner was convinced that it would make things better). I know that moving wont fix our issues and I feel like saying:

"I can hear that you are miserable hear, and I know that the past 5 years have been really hard, still I think that moving is not going to make things any easier. We won't have a support network, the kids won't have any friends, they are going to a good school at the moment, I have a really good job here etc. etc."

But I know this will be a totally circular argument because it will just end in my partner telling me how I've completely invalidated everything she's just said.

In the scenario where she is telling me about how terrible it is where we live in every aspect and I get up and say,
"It feels like we've been over this a lot before, if there's no new information I'm going to head out for a walk, want me to bring you anything back?" I'm almost certain that she will be furious and scream that I don't care and I don't listen and use this as an example of what an uncaring partner I am. How do you think it sounds if I was to say "I don't have anything else that I can add to this conversation right now because it feels like we are going over a lot of the terrain. If you have anything new you'd like to talk about, I'm happy  to stay, otherwise I'm going to go now."

All of these approaches, apart from the first conversation where I try to review her distortions seems quite cold, but I recognize that trying to point out that her world is full of information that I see as distorted is going to blow up in my face.

Regarding spelling out boundaries, I do feel tempted to spell them out so that she know what I'm doing, but I agree that perhaps it's better just to act out my boundary and the meaning behind it should then not need explaining.

[Ventak]

Next time the conversation starts to circle, "doing" a boundary could look like saying "hey babe, I'm gonna go get some juice, want me to bring any back for you?" And then you leave the room. Notice you aren't being punitive about it (you're trying to be kind and offer her something too) but -- importantly -- you're doing the boundary of leaving circular conversations.

What are your thoughts so far?

I REALLY like this one.. will have to try it some day.

[babyducks]

Regarding spelling out boundaries, I do feel tempted to spell them out so that she know what I'm doing, but I agree that perhaps it's better just to act out my boundary and the meaning behind it should then not need explaining.

I used to make cups of tea.   it took about 5 minutes to make a good cup of tea so that got me out of the conversational loop for a while.       and I used to go to the bathroom.    I went to the bathroom a lot.        anything to force a break into the avalanche of emotions.

I don't think I have ever read one single post where some one said -  oh we were stuck in a circular argument and finally after 7 hours over 12 days we worked it out.     it has always been ... always... the more the conversation went on the worse it got.    I think ending a circular conversation does feel cold at first.   we are used to the heightened emotions of the argument.    in a way cold is what the  goal is.   a cooling off of emotions.

what I know from my experience the more the circular argument went on -  the more both of us got entrenched in our positions.    we both deadlocked in our positions and solutions and it became harder and harder to see any other viewpoint than the one we had gone over and over and over.

[Tiller]

I just had a textbook circular argument:
Partner: I just hate it here, we have no community, no friends, the teachers at the school hate all the parents and you don’t care.
Me: i can see how much you are not wanting to be here now and that you feel like we have no community. You’ve felt that way for a long time. I am concerned that if we move we’ll have even less community.
Partner; I don’t want to talk to you anymore you don’t listen to me.
Me: I’m sorry it feels like I’m not listening, from where I stand I’m listening intently, but don’t share your view.
Partner; it’s not a f@cking feeling, it’s an objective reality!
Me: I think I’ll go now, this is just going round and round.


Admittedly I didn’t handle that too well, and I absolutely questioned her beliefs, but I just don’t think that it will be any different anywhere else, but part of me wants to give in because it feels like only when we actually go will she be able yo let go of the grass being greener back in Darwin.

I’m the meantime she is going to be completely obstinate about the fact that we have no one here, and she’ll enforce this by not engaging with anyone.

I feel like it’s definitely a case of damned if I do dammed if I don’t. All I know is things can’t go on this way. I need to make changes and I’m still not clear what they are.