Hello

[Tiller]

Hi, I have a partner who has been diagnosed with Complex PTSD by one psychologist, however I am really concerned that this is not the correct diagnosis. It seems from her behavior and the trauma referred to that she may have BPD.

She has a massive fear of abandonment, frequent uncontrollable angry outbursts, lack of a sense of self, extreme feeling of emptiness, feelings that the world has inflicted all of her problems on her, frequent periods of dissociation and using food and social media as numbing agents.

The trauma that she feels is at the root of her CPTSD is emotional neglect from her parents growing up. In the first 10 years of our relationship we were really close with her parents and they helped us immensely when our two children who are now 3 and 5 were born. I have found them to be very supportive and loving in-laws.
My Partner's mother was severely physically and sexually abused as a child and as a result she is very conflict avoidant and has a bit of a hard time connecting on a deep emotion level. My partner feels that this she experienced extreme emotional neglect as a child, but her parents feel like this was far from the case.
Since my partner was a teen she has suffered depressive episodes which have seen her hospitalized and for periods of time and she has had at least one attempt on her life.
She feels now that this was all to do with CPTSD and not depression.
She has now cut all contact with her entire family because they do not agree with her statements regarding her childhood. She doesn't want me contacting them and doesn't want our children to have any contact. She now feels a deep sense of despair that her family have abandoned her even though she severed contact. She feels like she has no friends and that their is no point trying to make friends because nobody is safe.
After a recent trip back to Darwin where she grew up and where we lived pre-kids she has completely disconnected from life where we live and is trying to convince me that we have no community , no friends and no-one who cares about our children. However she actively avoids socially engaging because she feels unsafe. I feel a strong sense of community and that the biggest barrier to us deepening relationships is that my partner doesn't feel safe with people. I can feel that she would like nothing better than to run away from our current situation and probably return to Darwin, but we have our kids in great schools, I have a good job, we have just bought a house and really we are kind of living in paradise on paper. we are a 10 minute walk from a beautiful beach, our kids are in a great Steiner school and the climate is great where we live. I feel like too many times I have accommodated her ideas about what will definitely 'fix' our lives. I've changed jobs, went to 4 days a week, moved town where we've bought a house, I look after the kids almost exclusively outside work hours, I often come home early from work when she's feeling 'catatonic'.

She has such an acute fear of abandonment and she has a number of long standing relationships that have deteriorated into no contact that seem to have been sabotaged by this fear of abandonment.
She has now disconnected from me and our two children and feels utterly hopeless and just stays in bed all the time. She won't talk to me because she feels like our conversations go nowhere and she yells at the kids as soon as they complain or fight with each other.
She has asked me not to talk to any of her friends about how she is and then complains that nobody is there to help us and how alone we are.

She is unwilling to accept anything other than 100% agreement with her version of her childhood to try to repair her relationship with her parents, and honestly we really need them more than ever right now to help with the kids. I am teetering on burnout and all avenues for help are being denied as options.
I don't feel like I can or should suggest my concerns about misdiagnosis as the ramifications of this would be that I would be accused of never having believed any of it and that I would become the enemy.

I guess I'm looking for some support as to how to move forward for all of our sakes, but particularly our beautiful children who are really suffering.

[Ventak]

Hi Tiller, and welcome to the family!

There are many parallels between your story and mine, so I hope you are able to get as much from this site as I have.  It is a very friendly, helpful forum with amazing tools to help you navigate through difficult relationships.

Are you feeling conflicted about staying in the relationship, or looking for some help in how to improve things?

[Tiller]

I want to improve things in our relationship, but I’m worried that there will be a time that I just won’t be able to do it anymore. I’m so worried about the impact this is having on our daughters.
My partner has not left bed for the past week and I can’t get her to really talk to me, even when I try my absolute best to empathise with and validate her feelings, she sees this as a facade for what she perceives as the way I really feel. I feel really helpless!

[Ventak]

I want to improve things in our relationship, but I’m worried that there will be a time that I just won’t be able to do it anymore. I’m so worried about the impact this is having on our daughters.
My partner has not left bed for the past week and I can’t get her to really talk to me, even when I try my absolute best to empathise with and validate her feelings, she sees this as a facade for what she perceives as the way I really feel. I feel really helpless!

So sorry you are experiencing this, I know how difficult it can be.

About 8 months ago I was in the exact position you find yourself, with 2 year old twins.  It has been a real struggle, but my BPDw and I are starting to do better, in part because of things I've learned from others and the articles on this site.

Here are a couple short articles that I think will give you a good start.  Let me know how it goes and I'll add to the list ;)
https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship
https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/fuzzetti.pdf

It is important to remember that you can not change another person, but you can make changes in your communication and expectations that will make a tremendous difference in your relationship.

One of the most important lessons is that you need to take care of yourself, or you will not be in the place to help others.  This is especially true when small children are involved.  Think of it as needing to put your oxygen mask on first in an airplane emergency, or you won't have the energy to help the rest of the family.  What type of support structure do you have? (Family, friends, therapist, etc..).  What are you doing to take care of you and your needs?

[Ventak]

It is important to remember that you can not change another person, but you can make changes in your communication and expectations that will make a tremendous difference in your relationship.

I want to highlight the "expectations" piece of what I wrote above.  That was my "aha" moment.  Once I accepted that it is unrealistic to expect "normal/rational" behavior from a pwBPD, I realized how I was doing considerable damage to our relationship.  My W would constantly tell me that she didn't feel heard, that I was invalidating her, that she suppressed her thoughts in order to appease me.  Once I understood that even though my reality and her reality were completely opposite, but her reality was completely accurate to her...  I began to understand how she would feel that way. 

To me, I always heard everything she said quite clearly but thought that if I only showed her the data that proved my reality was "the reality" she would understand and see reason.  I would repeat this cycle over, and over, and over, and over.  But all the physical evidence in the world will not alter a pwBPD's version of events, it is only about the emotions they feel at the time.  So I was, in fact, not listening to her.. I was, in fact, invalidating her..

I also read a scientific paper that showed through MRI brain scans how fear is extremely heightened with pwBPD even under neutral events, and logical processing is repressed during fear events making it all "fight or flight".  This helped me realize that my W was experiencing fear where most would not and did not have the tools to get past it logically.  Understanding that I need to expect a fear response leading to fight/flight helps me ground myself during those moments.  I remember how I have responded in the past experiencing intense fear and what it can do to your ability to communicate with others.

I have also read in many places that emotional regulation in pwBPD is stunted around the age of 2.  Having 2 year old toddlers and seeing their emotional dysregulation helps me keep perspective.  I don't argue with my twins, I don't expect them to be rational.  I set clear boundaries and try to help them through the storm.

Sorry to ramble, but understanding these things was huge in my journey and I thought it might be good to clarify what I meant.

Glad you found us.

[Tiller]

Thanks for the reply, it feels great to talk about this. I feel like I'm holding so much back from my partner; holding back my concern that she has BPD and not CPTSD, holding back that I think that she's treating her parents unfairly by cutting them off completely with contact from her and their grandchildren because they won't agree with her statements of the emotional neglect and emotional abuse she experienced as a child (they dispute strongly that any of this every happened).. She now states daily that her family have cut her off, even though she was the one who asked them to stopped contacting her. I try to just empathetically listen to how she feels about this, but feel so frustrated because she seems to have this all so wrongheaded. My girls ask all the time if they can see grandma and grandpa and it breaks my heart every time.

I'm really worried that by providing validation I'm just strengthening her beliefs that everyone has abandoned her when in fact she is abandoning them because they disagree with her. I so easily fall into the rescuer role, when I know I can't really fix anything, it needs to come from her. I find myself trying so hard to listen to her and feel what she feels, but it's just so painful for me because so much of it seems to be based on a reality that others don't share.
She has now been in bed and unwilling to talk to me for 7 days now, apart from telling me that there is no use in trying because everything is pointless and that we are completely alone.
I'm just not sure how to balance validating her emotions with meeting my families dire need for help from those who are not allowed to give it.

[Ventak]

Thanks for the reply, it feels great to talk about this. I feel like I'm holding so much back from my partner; holding back my concern that she has BPD and not CPTSD.

Many mental health conditions have similar symptoms and are difficult if not impossible to differentiate, and can be done so only by the best professionals.  My BPDw has been diagnosed at different times with BPD, Anti-Social PD, PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, DID (self).  At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me what the diagnosis is, I look at her behaviors (which are very similar to what you experience).  For years I have made the mistake of pointing out behaviors as being a sign of her mental health.  I've recently understood that this has made her feel worse about herself and eroded trust in our relationship.  I haven't brought it up for a couple months now, which seems to help.  Instead I focus solely on the behaviors that affect me, such as "It really hurts me when you accuse me of hacking into your phone.  I did not do it, and I'm letting you know that if you accuse me again I'm going to hang up the call and take a break for an hour or so."  Whereas before I might say something about her being in the middle of one of her BPD episodes.  Does this make sense?

holding back that I think that she's treating her parents unfairly by cutting them off completely with contact from her and their grandchildren because they won't agree with her statements of the emotional neglect and emotional abuse she experienced as a child (they dispute strongly that any of this every happened).. She now states daily that her family have cut her off, even though she was the one who asked them to stopped contacting her. I try to just empathetically listen to how she feels about this, but feel so frustrated because she seems to have this all so wrongheaded. My girls ask all the time if they can see grandma and grandpa and it breaks my heart every time.

This is one of the hardest things to deal with in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Their memories are not grounded in reality.. but are completely real to them.  The important thing is to validate the emotion, but not the distortion.  I'm struggling mightily with this part right now.  I'm on the autism spectrum and our brains don't process naturally for this distinction.  Saying something like "It must be really painful to feel cut off from your family, anyone would be hurting from that" might work, though someone with more experience might be able to give you better advice.  Just remember that her emotion of feeling cut off is just as real as if it is exactly how it happened.

She has now been in bed and unwilling to talk to me for 7 days now, apart from telling me that there is no use in trying because everything is pointless and that we are completely alone.

This sentence concerns me, greatly.  Do you believe that she is suicidal, or having suicidal ideations?  It might be a good idea to reach out to a local suicide hotline and discuss what is going on and get their advice.  Persons diagnosed with BPD have an 8% suicide success rate, so I tend to track my W's SI closely.

I'm just not sure how to balance validating her emotions with meeting my families dire need for help from those who are not allowed to give it.

Have you heard of or read the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life"?  It has helped many people struggling with this balance, and helped me understand myself much better.

[Tiller]

My partner just informed me that we have to leave our wonderful town. She want to move as many thousands of kms away as is possible and is already madly looking for schools and jobs. She wants to move because she feels abandoned by everyone and needs to start again.

Im really struggling to know how to validate the ways she feel right now because I am so panicked by what she is saying. I pretty certain moving isn’t going to solve anything and is probably going to make things even more isolated, but as soon as I even give her a whiff of disagreement she just lashes out at me. I feel like I need to confront her about all this and have no idea how I would possibly go snout it because anything I say will be contradicting what she knows to be true.

Any advice?

[ForeverDad]

There's no easy advice.  Fortunately you realize that picking up and moving far away will not resolve her issues.  Eventually she would perceive being there also isolating and abandoned and want to move again all too soon.

Browse our Tools and Skills workshops board and read the threads on Boundaries, perhaps other topics too.  You've learned that she resists normal boundaries, right?   Well, all is not lost,you can have boundaries for yourself that may positively impact her.  A very simplistic example for illustration could be "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  Of course, it's not easy but a healthy boundary is to protect the you, her, the kids, even possibly the relationship.

What would it be like if you set your boundary that you refuse to acquiesce to her wishes and move away (from current jobs, housing, family, local resources)?  Probably moving would incur a large financial and logistical expense while her issues would just follow her there.

Are you worried that if you refused to leave that she would move anyway?  That she would take the kids with her?  If that happened, what would you do?  Would you file in family court to keep your kids with you considering her issues?  Have you explored local legal resources to determine the best ways to handle such scenarios?  These are some huge issues that will affect the next 15 years as your children grow up.

[Tiller]

I can see that I have to show where my boundaries are. Her black and whit thinking is just so difficult. She has a childhood friend here that has ‘abandoned’ her and because of that she feels like everyone here will always take this friend’s side, even though the majority of our friends aren’t friends with this person, but her argument will be that we’ve given it 5 years here and it just hasn’t worked, we have no friends, no village (Im growing to hate this term with its lack of relevance to how our society functions) and no family. I spoke to both her dad and her sister and they want her back so badly but they just can’t take any more vitriolic abuse. Do you think that it’s a cop out if my limit is that I won’t consider moving until she has got a job and means of funding a move? Personally, I feel like I can adapt to new surroundings pretty easily, but I feel like it’s unlikely to  help her and would be really disruptive to the kids.
There is part of me that thinks it could be best for me and the kids to try take some space from her, but that would be so hard on everyone.

[babyducks]

Tiller -

let me join the others in welcoming you to this site.   glad you are here and glad you are posting.    the more you can post the more it will help.    many times just the simple act of getting our thoughts out - written out, can help us organize them.

I feel like I'm holding so much back from my partner; holding back my concern that she has BPD and not CPTSD, holding back that I think that she's treating her parents unfairly by cutting them off completely with contact from her and their grandchildren because they won't agree with her statements of the emotional neglect and emotional abuse she experienced as a child (they dispute strongly that any of this every happened)..

I understand its hard to not share what we are thinking with those who are supposed to be closest to us.   it does feel difficult and just wrong.    however, I think in this case, right now, you are doing the right thing.    from what you describe of your partner her ability to receive any new information or process it is very lacking.    adding more emotional and intellectual stress is probably not a wise choice.

as to the difference between CPTSD and BPD.   they are, as you know, very similar.    and of course psychiatric diagnosis is very subjective...there is no blood test or medical test that can 'prove' BPD or CPTSD.    a diagnosis is based on the psychologist's educated opinions, experiences, and influences instead of a blood test or xray.    for many of us - we have a deep need to have the 'right' diagnosis because it makes us feel better.    the reality often is the 'treatment plan' won't change significantly regardless of diagnosis.

I'm really worried that by providing validation I'm just strengthening her beliefs that everyone has abandoned her when in fact she is abandoning them because they disagree with her.

Validation is a hard skill to learn.    Its not intuitive.   and its not agreement.   it does not mean validating the invalid.   let me use a silly example.   if you told me that you really really believe that today you were going to win a million dollars in the lottery - I wouldn't attempt to validate the win.    it's not possible to know if you are going to win or not so I would look for another validation target.   often finding the validation target is hard...but the target tends to be around the emotions in play -   my quick attempt at validating the lottery win is:

Wow Tiller - that must be an interesting sensation,  what's going on that makes you feel that way?

that's a validating question...   doesn't agree with your feeling but opens the door to expressing them.

Im really struggling to know how to validate the ways she feel right now because I am so panicked by what she is saying. I pretty certain moving isn’t going to solve anything and is probably going to make things even more isolated, but as soon as I even give her a whiff of disagreement she just lashes out at me. I feel like I need to confront her about all this and have no idea how I would possibly go snout it because anything I say will be contradicting what she knows to be true.

Any advice?

Ever hear of SET?    S=Support  E=Empathy T=Truth   SET is a communication tool to help deal with highly charged emotional topics.   Three statements.    A support statement:    think about them before hand,  its even okay to prepare some SET pieces in advance to use in tough spots.

S:   I can see this is very important to you.
E:  I know this has been a very difficult period of time.
T:  Still, I want to make the best decisions we can for our family so I need to slow this down and think it through.

Do you think that it’s a cop out if my limit is that I won’t consider moving until she has got a job and means of funding a move?

No, its not a cop out.     Moves need to be planned.   many many things need to be considered.   You have a right to consider your needs and the children's needs.

my two cents
'ducks

[Tiller]

Thanks so much, some really helpful insight and suggestions. I can see so much more clearly that any perceived transgression from my partner's reality sends her into a rage. This rage serves to bring me back into the caretaker role because I hate the conflict and it feels like I could never 'win'. I'm still struggling a bit to understand if I am able to, or it is wise to, bring some accountability into the distortions she has. One example is that she feels like she has been abandoned by her family, whereas it was her that wanted to cut contact unless they validated all of her distorted stories. Do I just say I can see how much being disconnected from her family is hurting her or do I point out that she cut off contact with them? As I write this I know that pointing this out would only be me acting yet again as the rescuer trying to fix their relationship and invalidating her feeling. Probably best to just acknowledge her emotions. But the fall out of doing this is that nothing changes, we still have no contact with the people who love our family more than anyone else and are absolutely itching to provide us with support. Adding to this, our little girls won't be able to have contact with the grandparents, which they almost daily request.

There is part of me that is trying to allow myself to think a bit more long term about the viability of our relationship. Neither one of us is happy and our kids are suffering the fall out of that. But the idea of separation is so scary. I really would love to keep our family unit together, but I don't know anymore if that is in everyone's best interest.

[Ventak]

...or do I point out that she cut off contact with them? As I write this I know that pointing this out would only be me acting yet again as the rescuer trying to fix their relationship and invalidating her feeling. Probably best to just acknowledge her emotions. But the fall out of doing this is that nothing changes

Trying to follow this.  You believe that acknowledging her emotions will avoid a rage, but the downside is that nothing changes.  Do you have any positive history where doing something that caused a rage resulted in a positive change?  This does sometimes work with my BPDw, but only certain areas where eventually she is able to process something.  Some areas I know will never get that level of scrutiny because her pain is too deep.

There is part of me that is trying to allow myself to think a bit more long term about the viability of our relationship. Neither one of us is happy and our kids are suffering the fall out of that. But the idea of separation is so scary. I really would love to keep our family unit together, but I don't know anymore if that is in everyone's best interest.

This is a very tough, and very personal decision.  There are many posts on this forum on this topic, both positive and negative.  I'm in the "try to work it out camp"  with my W, and am quite positive that both are a lot of work and a lot of energy.  Hopefully you are taking care of yourself along the journey.

[ForeverDad]

Ventak is right, it is your decision as to how to handle your life and your relationships.  What we can do is educate you on communication skills and tools that that enable you to make more informed and more confident decisions.  Often there is not a clear right or wrong choice.

for example, you're pondering whether to stay or go, to keep trying or to call it quits.  On the marriage, not the parenting.  You're the more stable parent and the kids definitely need you as much in their lives as possible.

I'll comment in a very, very generalized way.  Your decision on which path to take may turn out to be dependent on how dysfunctional her behaviors are and how responsive she is and whether she will make sufficient positive changes.  If not too severe, perhaps you can manage it over time.  For example, formflier is doing that.  Many others had more extreme cases that the only resolution was with divorce.  That is what I did since my parenting was being obstructed and my then-spouse was making horrid allegations and eventually court agreed.  Though it started me with just alternate weekends, by the time several years had passed I had both guardianship (legal custody) and majority time during the school year.  Here are a few questions you can ponder as you're learning:

Has she threatened (or even just contemplated) making allegations against you or your parenting?  Our collective wisdom here has learned that such threats or contemplating it will happen, given enough time.  You don't want to be caught unprepared should she eventually do that.

Over the years and with your continuing efforts,  has the family environment improved, been unchanged or is it getting worse?  The pattern we typically experience is that over time it gets worse despite our efforts.

Do you think that by tapping our experience that your education on what usually works and what usually doesn't work, the communication skills, tools and boundaries, that you will instead see improvement?  Of course, you don't know yet, you just got here, but be watchful for improvements — or lack of them — over the weeks and months ahead.

One more heads up... Telling her that she has to find a job before moving may appear to make common sense but what it's doing is telling her that you'll move once she finds a job elsewhere.  I don't think you want to do that.  You may have just been listing some of the obstacles to a move but she probably perceives it as you already agreeing to a move if she does certain preparations.  I previously posted that you can set a boundary that you're not going to move because moving would be for the wrong reason.  How she would react is of course another matter.

[babyducks]

I'm still struggling a bit to understand if I am able to, or it is wise to, bring some accountability into the distortions she has. One example is that she feels like she has been abandoned by her family, whereas it was her that wanted to cut contact unless they validated all of her distorted stories. Do I just say I can see how much being disconnected from her family is hurting her or do I point out that she cut off contact with them?

this was my experience.     my then partner now Ex was diagnosed bipolar 1 comorbid with BPD.    she was compliant with medication, and regular with therapy.    even with medication it was a struggle to keep the bipolar mania under any control.    she did become psychotic from time to time.   and especially experienced delusions around the weather.   she often believed the weather was sending her messages.   the wind was telling the car which direction to go in.   the thunderstorm was telling her secrets.    that sort of thing.  there was one time she was determined to go up on the roof (12 stories) during a raging thunderstorm.   

my personal rule was I would not validate anything that was untrue (invalid).  I would not validate anything that was dangerous. and yes sometimes this caused titanic rages.   

there a different set of tools and skills to deal with the rages.     I vividly remember how scary they were and how fast they appeared.     it took me a while to understand that me always avoiding the rages was not a successful strategy either.     there really were times when I had to draw a boundary and say what I was thinking.    I said it using the best communication skills and tools I had.    that was the best I could do to making sure it was received clearly.

There is part of me that is trying to allow myself to think a bit more long term about the viability of our relationship. Neither one of us is happy and our kids are suffering the fall out of that. But the idea of separation is so scary. I really would love to keep our family unit together, but I don't know anymore if that is in everyone's best interest.

give yourself some time to consider all the ramifications of this.     its not a simple decision.    my partner was severely mentally ill, but was working to manage the illness.    because she was making honest fruitful efforts to manage her mental health I felt I could stay.    right up until the stress grew to much for her and some serious violence broke out.    its a very personal decision.     everyone's circumstances are unique.

keep posting.

'ducks

[Tiller]

Thank you all so much for all your contributions, it's really helpful!

I've noticed that since I've been doing a much deeper dive into BPD and how to break out of the caretaker role, I've started to withdraw a bit from engaging with my partner. Everyday I go in and try to check in with her, and every time she tells me that she would like to be alone. I can tell that she feels like I am not validating her emotions and probably sees that as me abandoning her. Tonight I'm going to try to use SET communication tools a bit more and see how it goes. My biggest concern is that I'll get sidelined by her big feelings and feel put on the spot and be unable to remember what to say or not say, and then I'll just be quiet, which really triggers her.

I imagine the conversation will go something like this:
Me: I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?
Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Me: I really care about you and I would like to hear about how you are feeling.
Partner: Whenever I talk about how I'm feeling you just look uncomfortable and it feels like I'm talking into the wind.
Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you.

From here she will either ask to be  left alone, to which I guess I'll reply that I'll respect that, but if she wants to talk I am willing to listen. The other way it may go is into a tirade about being miserable where we are and that I don't care and that everyone has abandoned us and we have no community and that our family would be better off without her.

I'm not sure of the best way to tackle this one, but I was thinking of saying. I can see you're feeling upset about a lot of different things, can we talk about them one at a time?

Her response might be "I hate it here, we need to leave."

I could respond with "I can hear that you're unhappy with the way things are going here and you feel that moving might be the answer. My feeling is that moving would be really disruptive for the kids and I and even though I hear that you don't feel supported here, if we moved we would need to start again with finding an entirely new support system. Right now for me moving doesn't feel like the right thing to do".

This is all pretty new to me and I'm really open to suggestions and advice!

Another thing that's been happening a lot lately is requests for me to come pick up the kids because she cant cope with leaving the house. This means leaving work far too early. I'm torn between 'getting away with' leaving work early and being there to shield the kids from the impacts of an emotionally disregulated parent. I find I'm doing this a lot, doing all the housework, running the finances, doing all the cooking. Basically I've fallen into the role of doing everything because my partner 'can't' do it.

She just asked if I can pick up our eldest a 3:30, when I shouldn't be finishing at work until 4:30, so I wrote that I cant pick her up because I've been leaving work early too much lately and my work is piling up. It feels good to say no and stop being the rescuer, but I'm worried about the impact on our kids.

[babyducks]

hello again

I can tell that she feels like I am not validating her emotions and probably sees that as me abandoning her.

hmmmmm.    that's an interesting thought.    can you say more about how you can tell this?   what specifically makes you draw the conclusion that she feels abandoned?

I imagine the conversation will go something like this:
Me: I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?
Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Me: I really care about you and I would like to hear about how you are feeling.
Partner: Whenever I talk about how I'm feeling you just look uncomfortable and it feels like I'm talking into the wind.
Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you.

great idea to play around with trying out conversations.       nicely done.    there  isn't one particular way that is 'best' or the way that works.   different approaches to communication work better at different times with different people.   some of this is trial and error.     here are a couple of ideas to bounce around when you look at this potential conversation.

Me: I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?

couple of ideas for you to consider.    Let's say emotions exist on a scale of 1 to 10.     Like the Richter scale of magnitude.    Where do you think she is on the emotional scale when you begin this conversation?    a 1?   a 5?   a 9?    wherever she is you want to be one number below that.   lets say she's at a 5.   you want to consider when and how much emotion to add to the conversation...   and you want to be at a 4 to keep the conversation at a more even keel... make sense?

let's look at "I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days."   is this adding emotion?    and is this the emotion you want to add to the mix?    could she 'hear' this as a criticism?    an accusation?     contrast "I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?"  with 'it feels to me that things have been a bit distant between us the last few days.   how do you feel its going?'   changing a few words can change the overall 'feel' of the sentence.  

 pay attention to "I"  and the "You".     typically I / You statements are fraught with more difficulty.    and tend to accelerate a conversation.    You want I statements to be clear simple statements of what you think, feel, need.    I need.    I feel.   I want.    I think.    I suggest.     You statements should have more of a questioning tone.   are you x or are you y?    

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Me: I really care about you and I would like to hear about how you are feeling.

here is a place you might want to try a SET.    first she told you what she wants.   and you blew right by it.    she doesn't want to talk.  she wants to just go to bed.   validation doesn't mean agreeing it means acknowledging... acknowledging what she said.    

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Support:   okay if you don't want to talk.
Empathy:  sometimes it sucks to have these conversations
Truth: I would like to talk about things later when we both feel up to it.

lets keep playing around with this:

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Support:   okay we can talk about this another time.
Empathy:  we've had a lot of tiring conversations lately. we are both probably tired.
Truth: We can try again later when things feel better.

what do you think?    

Me: I really care about you and I would like to hear about how you are feeling.
Partner: Whenever I talk about how I'm feeling you just look uncomfortable and it feels like I'm talking into the wind.
Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you.

hmmmm.    my thought is you are starting to head off into the weeds here.   "I really care about you"   may be an absolutely true statement.   how you convey that message... the words you pick and your timing is important.    she told you she didn't want to talk... but you invalidated that statement by going on to say ~essentially~ I don't care what you want talk to me now anyhow...  but the message gets mixed with I really care about you tell me how you are feeling even though she doesn't want to...     see where I am going with this?

again she pushes the conversation off - you just look uncomfortable and I feel like I am talking to the wind...   you take a shot at acknowledging her feeling here but it doesn't seem to land.    it could sound like you are rushing by the acknowledgement to reach your point 'I would still like to listen to you'.     pay careful attention to the I and You statements.   You statements can come across as blaming.    Don't tell her what her emotions are -   don't tell her she's uncomfortable... ask her.    Contrast these two statements "Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you."     If it were me, I would feel upset that someone isn't listening, kind of irritated.   Is that how it works for you?    Sometimes I do feel uncomfortable in some of our conversations still I do want to listen to you.

I'm going to pause here for a minute.     Looking forward to your thoughts.

'ducks

[Tiller]

Thanks Ducks, some very useful stuff in there. Here are some of my thoughts.

 

hmmmmm.    that's an interesting thought.    can you say more about how you can tell this?   what specifically makes you draw the conclusion that she feels abandoned?

In my past experience when I don't give her emotions (or story) validation she has told me that she feels completely alone. I am drawing a conclusion from that that if she feels alone, there is a pretty good chance that  she's feeling abandoned because this has been the pattern I have observed over time.

couple of ideas for you to consider.    Let's say emotions exist on a scale of 1 to 10.     Like the Richter scale of magnitude.    Where do you think she is on the emotional scale when you begin this conversation?    a 1?   a 5?   a 9?    wherever she is you want to be one number below that.   lets say she's at a 5.   you want to consider when and how much emotion to add to the conversation...   and you want to be at a 4 to keep the conversation at a more even keel... make sense?

Makes sense, I actively try to keep my level a few notches below hers. She has expressed in the past that she finds this triggering because I don't feel angry enough about the injustices that have been inflicted on her.

let's look at "I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days."   is this adding emotion?    and is this the emotion you want to add to the mix?    could she 'hear' this as a criticism?    an accusation?     contrast "I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?"  with 'it feels to me that things have been a bit distant between us the last few days.   how do you feel its going?'   changing a few words can change the overall 'feel' of the sentence.  

I can see that removing the you and I from statements does take away a bit of their sounding accusatory, I can see that be saying that 'it feels to me that things have been a bit distant between us the last few days' puts equal responsibility onto both of us for the distance rather than accusing her of being distant. I'll try play around with dropping the I and You from statement.

here is a place you might want to try a SET.    first she told you what she wants.   and you blew right by it.    she doesn't want to talk.  she wants to just go to bed.   validation doesn't mean agreeing it means acknowledging... acknowledging what she said.    

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Support:   okay if you don't want to talk.
Empathy:  sometimes it sucks to have these conversations
Truth: I would like to talk about things later when we both feel up to it.

lets keep playing around with this:

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Support:   okay we can talk about this another time.
Empathy:  we've had a lot of tiring conversations lately. we are both probably tired.
Truth: We can try again later when things feel better.

what do you think?    

It's true, I did blow past the feeling of her wanting to be alone. When she says that I hear 'you're not going to listen to me properly so there is no point talking and you may as well go'. The reason I make this deduction is because she has said it to me many times before. Regardless of this I can see that it is better to acknowledge what she is saying rather than reading into it, if she wants to elaborate on her feelings I'll leave that up to her.

hmmmm.    my thought is you are starting to head off into the weeds here.   "I really care about you"   may be an absolutely true statement.   how you convey that message... the words you pick and your timing is important.    she told you she didn't want to talk... but you invalidated that statement by going on to say ~essentially~ I don't care what you want talk to me now anyhow...  but the message gets mixed with I really care about you tell me how you are feeling even though she doesn't want to...     see where I am going with this?

Perhaps here I could I could say "Ok, I really care about you and would really like to talk together about this later".

again she pushes the conversation off - you just look uncomfortable and I feel like I am talking to the wind...   you take a shot at acknowledging her feeling here but it doesn't seem to land.    it could sound like you are rushing by the acknowledgement to reach your point 'I would still like to listen to you'.     pay careful attention to the I and You statements.   You statements can come across as blaming.    Don't tell her what her emotions are -   don't tell her she's uncomfortable... ask her.    Contrast these two statements "Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you."     If it were me, I would feel upset that someone isn't listening, kind of irritated.   Is that how it works for you?    Sometimes I do feel uncomfortable in some of our conversations still I do want to listen to you.

Interesting, what I was going for here is validating her feelings the she doesn't feel like I'm listening to her without arguing the fact that I was listening to her. My looking uncomfortable to a subjective statement, and by me saying "even if I seem uncomfortable, I would still like to listen to you" I am trying to not invalidate her feeling that I am not listening to her, but expressing clearly that I would.

I can see that she actively trying to avoid talking to me at the moment, and part of me is relieved, because in some ways it's easier, because there is no conflict, but on the other hand I can see that she's really hurting. I'm trying to get out of the drama triangle that we have lived for so many years, where I would try go in too rescue her from her bad feelings, but now I just feel a bit unkind that I'm not engaging as much. I

I had another interested interaction yesterday. The other day I noting that over $200 had come out of our account for tickets for a concert. My partner has completely stopped participating in the management of our finances, I am managing everything at present, and whilst I don't think this is particularly healthy, it is how things are functioning at the moment. When I noticed this unanticipated expense I got a bit panicked as we have quite a few bills to pay so I texted here the following:

Me: "Hi honey, did you buy tickets for something for $228 a couple of days ago?
Partner: "Yes"
Me: "In the future can you please talk to me before buying things like this? I'd like to be in the loop as for better or worse I am the primary manager of our finances. There are quite a few bills that need paying and I'm worried we will run out of money this pay cycle"
My: partner 3 day later "I can't PLEASE READing believe you would send me a text message like this"
Me: I can hear that you are upset, I'm happy to talk about it. We just had to pay a bunch of bills and we are I wasn't expecting this expense. I'm just asking if you can let me know before any large expense items. It's fine, we can afford it, but I'm just asking if you can give me a heads up next time.

There has been no further discussion, but when I go home she got in the car and left me with feeding the kids and putting them to bed, and then when I went to talk to her she appeared to be asleep so I left her.

I can see that I didn't communicate overly well in my first message particularly. I should definitely not have said that for better or worse I am the primary manager of our finances. The truth is that she just won't participate in our finances other than saying that we never have enough money and we suck at managing money. I find this pretty triggering because she insisted that I drop to 4 days a week in order for me to be able to take the kids on Fridays. This was a pretty big hit to our finances, and she's not really doing much in the way of paid work and doesn't feel able to. This is used also a justification for why we need to move, because the only place she is able to work is Darwin. Of course I have tried to talk about how valuable her skill sets could be in other areas, but in her view Darwin is the only possibility.

Sorry I'm going off on a tangent.

I probably should have said that I'm feeling a bit stressed managing our finances at the moment and I'd  like to talk about sharing the responsibility.

Lots more to say, but I'll leave it there for the moment.

[ThanksForPlaying]

Lot of good ideas on this thread.

Two quick thoughts I had:
1) sometimes you can try to just do the S (support) or just ONLY do the validation for a small step. It depends on how urgently you need to discuss the moving situation. If the goal is just to get her out of this current mood (that has been going on for weeks already), you can try just 15 minutes of pure support and validation (being careful not to agree to anything you don't actually agree with). Just reflect/mirror her feelings, and call it a night. And try again tomorrow. Sometimes the surprise of that tactic can shake things up a little bit.

2) the financial stuff is exhausting. My uBPDgf will insist that she is not high maintenance, and prides herself on not being materialistic. But one symptom of PDs is reckless or excessive spending, and she is uncanny in her ability to spend recklessly on unnecessary things at the worst possible times. Even when she knows we CAN afford it, she enjoys causing chaos by surprise purchases and lack of communication around those expenses. Unfortunately, there's no good way to tell her about your own financial stresses, because she will just internalize that and blame you for stressing her out (in my experience). Anyone have any suggestions for how to discuss finances? It's really just another symptom of the same basic BPD issues.

This thread has been helpful for me - hang in there

TFP

[ForeverDad]

She just asked if I can pick up our eldest a 3:30, when I shouldn't be finishing at work until 4:30, so I wrote that I cant pick her up because I've been leaving work early too much lately and my work is piling up. It feels good to say no and stop being the rescuer, but I'm worried about the impact on our kids.

I worked across town and it took me at least a half hour and usually more to travel back for exchanges.  Until my son aged out at about age 12 I paid for a daycare before and after school.  And summers were all daycare.  Of course we were already divorcing/divorced by then but that's how I juggled my parenting time versus work.

[Tiller]

I'm just finishing off reading Stop Caretaking the Boarderline Narcissist and I've found it really useful, but now am wondering how to stop being a caretaker and still be in a romantic relationship with my partner? It feels like the book suggests that being a non-caretaker means not having emotional discussions with your bpd spouse because they are not capable of it? Honestly by the end I just felt really sad that I'd never be able to have any real conversations with my partner without getting tripped up by a need from her to validate her distortions.

This is at the core of some of what I am really struggling with, I feel really disingenuous validating my partner's feelings whilst avoiding agreement with the statements of fact which are massively distorted. I feel like she will see right through that and push me to agree with all of the distortions and my  validating only the feelings and not the 'facts' will enrage her. Does this make sense?

[babyducks]

hello Tiller

I really appreciate you digging in and providing such thoughtful posts.   I can see you are working hard.

In my past experience when I don't give her emotions (or story) validation she has told me that she feels completely alone. I am drawing a conclusion from that that if she feels alone, there is a pretty good chance that  she's feeling abandoned because this has been the pattern I have observed over time.

hmmm.     feeling alone is a common theme in many pwBPD(people with BPD).   It can of course mean abandoned.  It can also mean unheard, or unappreciated.   or of course both.    my experience was my partner did not feel abandoned in the traditional sense.    that I was going to leave or end the relationship.    she often felt abandoned in that she wasn't cared for in what she felt was the appropriate way.     for her the appropriate level of care was we needed to merge into one unit, be in totally agreement always and share one perspective... hers.

Makes sense, I actively try to keep my level a few notches below hers. She has expressed in the past that she finds this triggering because I don't feel angry enough about the injustices that have been inflicted on her.

in the book you just finished Fjelstad says 'merging into an amoebae like oneness'   the phrase always stuck with me because it was so accurate.    I think validation has to come hand in hand with boundaries.     finding ways to express a different opinion was very challenging.    I had to find boundaries I was comfortable with in regards to holding and expressing my own opinions.   and that included how much discord was going to be generated.

Interesting, what I was going for here is validating her feelings the she doesn't feel like I'm listening to her without arguing the fact that I was listening to her.

I'm going to suggest that the crux of the issue here isn't if you are listening to her.    From all the evidence here in your posts you are a good listener.    You reflect back very carefully and accurately what's being said to you.  you pick out the important notes.    you are a good listener.    I think perhaps the issue your wife is expressing is that you don't agree with her...   hence you look uncomfortable.    How would you feel about moving the validation target by a couple of inches.      Instead of validation you are listening... how would you think it would go if you validated you are listening but see things differently.   

I can see that she actively trying to avoid talking to me at the moment, and part of me is relieved, because in some ways it's easier, because there is no conflict, but on the other hand I can see that she's really hurting. I'm trying to get out of the drama triangle that we have lived for so many years, where I would try go in too rescue her from her bad feelings, but now I just feel a bit unkind that I'm not engaging as much.

Lots of good insights here.    Lots to unpack.   if she is trying to avoid talking to you at the moment would it be a good idea to let her have her space?    and if not why?    part of being a 'caretaker' is trying to manage some one else's feelings for them.    which as you know, never really works.    if she is hurting ... you can open the door to contact... you can invite her to share... its up to her to find a way to communicate.     

additionally she might be using this down time to return to baseline.  I was always surprised at how long it took my EX to return to baseline after an emotional outpouring.      it was always much longer than I thought.

Me: "Hi honey, did you buy tickets for something for $228 a couple of days ago?
Partner: "Yes"
Me: "In the future can you please talk to me before buying things like this? I'd like to be in the loop as for better or worse I am the primary manager of our finances. There are quite a few bills that need paying and I'm worried we will run out of money this pay cycle"
My: partner 3 day later "I can't PLEASE READing believe you would send me a text message like this"
Me: I can hear that you are upset, I'm happy to talk about it. We just had to pay a bunch of bills and we are I wasn't weren't expecting this expense. I'm just asking if you can let me know before any large expense items. It's fine, we can afford it, but I'm just asking if you can give me a heads up next time.

Validation isn't a magic cure all.    Its true that pwBPD do better in a highly validating environment but the validation has to be reasonable.    an old timer here used to say don't invalidate.    validate the valid.     invalidate the invalid.    validation can be used to make a tough conversation better but it isn't a magic cure all that turns arguments into smooth sailing.    and validation shouldn't only be used in a highly fraught conversations.    validation should be part of daily living.    a highly validating environment means all things have the potential to be validated not just the difficult moments.

when I first started to validated my partner some of my most carefully crafted validations statements fell flat as mud.    and some of my off the cuff in the spur of the moment flying by the seat of my pants validations were well received.   validation has to be genuine.    it had to be something I would normally and naturally say.   it has to be something I really believed.     validation is not another form of walking on eggshells.    validation is not trying to put something perfectly.

'ducks

[babyducks]

This is at the core of some of what I am really struggling with, I feel really disingenuous validating my partner's feelings whilst avoiding agreement with the statements of fact which are massively distorted. I feel like she will see right through that and push me to agree with all of the distortions and my  validating only the feelings and not the 'facts' will enrage her. Does this make sense?

Yes it makes sense.     and you are probably right... she probably does see right though that.

people who are organized at the borderline level process the events and emotions of life differently than you and I do.     we process events differently enough that there is a whole website about it.      

what I am thinking as I read along here is how much differentiation you are comfortable with in romantic relationships.    this is not about her so much as about your comfort level and your ways of functioning in relationships.     if it feels disingenuous, why do it?     that's not a rhetorical question.   if it feels disingenuous why put her needs above your needs?    why do something that feels uncomfortable at your expense?    is there a kind, thoughtful way to express your thoughts to your partner and if so,  what's stopping you from doing that?

again ... validation doesn't mean agreement.   her feelings are very real to her.   she is drawing different conclusions from the events she is looking at.   validating that you both have experienced this very differently could be a bridge builder.

'ducks

[Ventak]

again ... validation doesn't mean agreement.   her feelings are very real to her.   she is drawing different conclusions from the events she is looking at.   validating that you both have experienced this very differently could be a bridge builder.

'ducks

Whenever I say something along the lines of "we remember that differently" or "we have different memories of that" my BPDw translates it into "you are crazy and this is a sign of your mental illness".  Any advice on how to turn this into a bridge building experience?

[babyducks]

Whenever I say something along the lines of "we remember that differently" or "we have different memories of that" my BPDw translates it into "you are crazy and this is a sign of your mental illness".  Any advice on how to turn this into a bridge building experience?

Oooffph.    That's a tough one.

Does she actually say you are crazy?  Who is she calling crazy herself or you?

'differences of opinion are part of the normal human experience'

No two people see things exactly alike.

Something along those lines?

[formflier]

Whenever I say something along the lines of "we remember that differently" or "we have different memories of that" my BPDw translates it into "you are crazy and this is a sign of your mental illness".  Any advice on how to turn this into a bridge building experience?

Uggg...this was a major thing in my r/s for a loong time.  It's better, I certainly wouldn't say I've "solved" it.

Much like many people will ask (in normal relationships) do you want me to listen and be empathetic or are you looking for help in problem solving...I will try to figure out if my wife honestly wants to have a discussion about recollections and what is subjective or objective...or if she just wants to be listened to.

That can be tricky to navigate.

FFw.."blah blah blah you said aliens are hiding in the closet and have bigfoot hostage...blah blah blah"

FF:  "Oh goodness...hey babe this sounds important and I'm trying to wrap this thing up here, can I bring us some drinks in 5 minutes and we'll talk?"

(that's kinda for the out of the blue thing)


Let's say we are having an "intense discussion" but I've decided to hang with it because it's somewhat productive (not a circular discussion).  Then...she goes for a wacky memory/accusation.

FFw  "you promised you would give me all your money and make sure I never worked again"  (umm...if you are wondering..I've heard that one...word for word)

FF:  "oh... I'm listening"  (perhaps a touch of surprise in my voice..just a touch, then kinda lean into it for the "I'm listening". )

let's say that doesn't work or she starts demanding I agree or  whatever.

FF:  "Hey babe..I'm tapping out on this conversation and need a break.  I'm grabbing ice water..can't I bring you some?  Then we'll work on this more."

In the past I've tried the "we recall things differently" and sometimes it "hurt"...maybe sometimes it was "neutral"...so I kinda gave that up.  A few times I've tried..

"Hey FFw...help me out here.  You obviously know people recall things differently, which we do...so I'm struggling to understand where this conversation is going."

You see how I acknowledge she is an adult with adult knowledge, vice trying to explain something to her that people already know.  

Maybe this has gone better for me.

Finally...I just offer what I can.

"Is this important enough to go examine our records to refresh our memories?"

Anyway...wish I had better news on this.  Lots of minefields.   Lots of trial and error.

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Trying not to hijack the thread.. but I think it's relevant to the OP.

So here is an example:

Buddy and I were out drinking and he made a joke about me needing to control my woman.  I thought it was funny and told my BPDw, she is the least "controllable" human being on the planet, and will literally do the exact opposite if one tries so I thought she would see the humor.  She had a mild upset, saying that in black culture (she's mexican, he's black, I'm white) that means I should beat her.  I certainly didn't take it that way and it was said in "guy talk" and not meant seriously either way.

Forward a couple years it comes up multiple times, every time her "translating" black culture for me.  Ultimately her telling me that a "real husband" would drop that person because he disrespected her.  But consistently saying it was a cultural translation of what he actually said.

Forward a couple of months:  "Have you been talking to XX".  Me:  Yes, he texted a few weeks back, told me he got a new job, but we really don't talk much.  Meltdown.  Emailed lawyer, Don't talk to me except through lawyer, etc.  I turn off my phone.  She rages another 30 minutes.

Next morning all okay.

That evening she brings it up as an "example" of how people act in relationships, saying he told me to smack her around.  At this point I remind her that he didn't use those words and I'm immediately cut off and a complete backstory about when/how those exact words were used,  how she confronted him on it, and how I never once had her back.  None of it true.

At this point I'm at a complete loss.  I don't want to JADE, but I can't even fathom how to SET this use case... so I say nothing.  Three minutes later it's like it never came up.  ((FWIW I tried the same technique the night before but she was in her 2-6 week "must fight" mode).

[formflier]

So..I think it's relevant/helpful as well.

If you could go back in time..what would you do differently?

Best,

FF

[Tiller]

My partner has just let me know that she feels like I’m just letting her rot and die in her room. She said’ you really need to read some books on how to support a partner with depression’.

This is so hard.Because she doesn’t identify as having depression 90% of the time and after the fact she will call it something else. On top of that I’m trying to be in relationship with her in the context of bpd, but she doesn’t know this and if she did, I don’t think that would be very helpful. I can see my self falling right back into FOG and caretaker mode!

[ForeverDad]

If your relationship fails, you'll end up in domestic or family court over the custody and parenting issues, whether you are married or not.  (You'll need to be prepared for that possibility, both legally and emotionally.)

How will court treat you?  As an adult. How will the court treat her?  As an adult.  Maybe not on the same level, many courts still give mothers preferential treatment, but still... adults.

Doesn't matter if you try to tell her what to do.
Doesn't matter if she tries to tell you what to do.
Court will ignore the minor squabbles and even some of the big ones.